Register a SA Forums Account here!
JOINING THE SA FORUMS WILL REMOVE THIS BIG AD, THE ANNOYING UNDERLINED ADS, AND STUPID INTERSTITIAL ADS!!!

You can: log in, read the tech support FAQ, or request your lost password. This dumb message (and those ads) will appear on every screen until you register! Get rid of this crap by registering your own SA Forums Account and joining roughly 150,000 Goons, for the one-time price of $9.95! We charge money because it costs us money per month for bills, and since we don't believe in showing ads to our users, we try to make the money back through forum registrations.
 
  • Post
  • Reply
Yvonmukluk
Oct 10, 2012

Everything is Sinister



Pick posted:

I would see if I could trick the program into reverting to the core conceit of the original holodeck programming, and offer to have a steamy holodeck orgy between the crew of our vessels
At least as far as I recall they explicitly keep the test as a simulator a la Wrath of Khan, presumably to make it harder to hack and also to avoid the inevitable holodeck malfunctions.

Hodgepodge posted:

most of the canon "innovative solutions" are just hacking the computer, which boomers consider bold innovation

in a real starfleet academy, kirk would be known for beating the speedrun record by finding a glitch which allowed him to beam the kobayashi marus crew to safety without entering the neutral zone

e: by far the best version in the existing fiction is the one vs romulans where someone uses obscure romulan law to challenge the enemy commander to personal combat
I thought the '1v1 me, motherfucker' solution was against Klingons. It certainly seems like they'd go for it.

I bet every cadet cursed Data's name when he invented the counter to the Picard Manoeuvrer. Of course in that scenario I guess the enemy would just blow up the freighter. That and I guess the ship can't just do the manoeuvrer over and over again.

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Sir DonkeyPunch
Mar 23, 2007

I didn't hear no bell


Yvonmukluk posted:

I thought the '1v1 me, motherfucker' solution was against Klingons. It certainly seems like they'd go for it.

I could swear I read the book where this happens, and that it was written by Shatner, but I can't seem to find it.

Main antagonists of the overall story were borg?

Bogus Adventure
Jan 11, 2017

More like "Bulges Adventure"

Sir DonkeyPunch posted:

I could swear I read the book where this happens, and that it was written by Shatner, but I can't seem to find it.

Main antagonists of the overall story were borg?

Lmao, was this "The Return?"

Sir DonkeyPunch
Mar 23, 2007

I didn't hear no bell


Bogus Adventure posted:

Lmao, was this "The Return?"



indeed. they took a sick all black Defiant to the borg homeworld, and shut them all off at the source

Sanguinia
Jan 1, 2012

#RXT REVOLUTION~!
2000





Sir DonkeyPunch posted:

indeed. they took a sick all black Defiant to the borg homeworld, and shut them all off at the source

Yes. Also Data's emotions become stable by explaining that they were erratic in the movie because the chip is literally going through an aging process, so he has to go through basically emotional puberty. And Spock and McCoy are around because they don't believe Kirk really died in Generations because he wasn't alone because of COURSE Shatner had to make Star Trek 5 a keystone of the plot. And Romulans are working with the Borg, and they bring Kirk back as a sleeper agent by brainwashing him with holodeck sex with a hot Tal Shiar agent.

Also apparently that novel was the launch of an entire wing of the Trek EU in which Kirk again takes a leading role in Starfleet operations and Federation politics after this ressurection, stretching through and beyond the Dominion War.

Barudak
May 7, 2007



1v1, no items, captains only, final destination is Klingons. Its what Riker does iirc.

Wont lie, depending on the time period I'd call up the maquis and use them as a proxy

Sodomy Hussein
Oct 9, 2005

Everything is subject to the needs of intelligence, for geniuses like me. If we actually solve problems, people won't need me and people like me, and this is a travesty without end. You have to squeeze the poor so they know their place, and you fucking commies forget that.


RBA Starblade posted:

My winning strategy would be to kill the ship myself and defect to the Klingons

Everyone coming up in Starfleet appears to know about the Maru test beforehand, which makes it both worthless as a test of character and encourages a growing number of students every year to just use the time to try and break the simulation or go idle instead of doing it. At least one student each year turns to the engineer, tells him to make the reactor go critical during warp, and cause a rip in the space time continuum that will kill everyone instantly and annihilate the galaxy in-sim, but on the bright side the sim will complete in 45 seconds.

Yvonmukluk
Oct 10, 2012

Everything is Sinister



Sodomy Hussein posted:

Everyone coming up in Starfleet appears to know about the Maru test beforehand, which makes it both worthless as a test of character and encourages a growing number of students every year to just use the time to try and break the simulation or go idle instead of doing it. At least one student each year turns to the engineer, tells him to make the reactor go critical during warp, and cause a rip in the space time continuum that will kill everyone instantly and annihilate the galaxy in-sim, but on the bright side the sim will complete in 45 seconds.
Do they? Has anyone actually talked about knowing what the test is beforehand? Saavik didn't seem to. Kirk had to retake it to beat it, remember.

Ograbme
Jul 26, 2003

D--n it, how he nicks 'em

I would use the replicator to make copies of the freighter crew and just tell everyone I rescued the original guys.

Bogus Adventure
Jan 11, 2017

More like "Bulges Adventure"

Sir DonkeyPunch posted:

indeed. they took a sick all black Defiant to the borg homeworld, and shut them all off at the source

Lmao, I will always find Shatner's massive ego funny.

Verviticus
Mar 13, 2006

Security? Please escort the fan in section 106, row 16, seat 1 out of the building right now and bar him from coming here again!




Pick posted:

The best is Nog bribing them to go

its weird because its usually established that the klingons dont respond to hails

Sodomy Hussein
Oct 9, 2005

Everything is subject to the needs of intelligence, for geniuses like me. If we actually solve problems, people won't need me and people like me, and this is a travesty without end. You have to squeeze the poor so they know their place, and you fucking commies forget that.


Yvonmukluk posted:

Do they? Has anyone actually talked about knowing what the test is beforehand? Saavik didn't seem to. Kirk had to retake it to beat it, remember.

Well if you can retake the test of character, lol already.

Tulip
Jun 3, 2008

I have no country to fight for; my country is the earth; I am a citizen of the world.




Sodomy Hussein posted:

Well if you can retake the test of character, lol already.

demanding to retake a pass/fail test that you already apparently passed is extremely nerd poo poo

Bogus Adventure
Jan 11, 2017

More like "Bulges Adventure"

Verviticus posted:

its weird because its usually established that the klingons dont respond to hails

No one ever offered them gold pressed latinum and free oo-mox before

Who What Now
Sep 10, 2006

In the cheery brightness of the 41st millennium there is only CHRISTMAS SPIRIT!


I don't understand how "Leave them, one ship isn't worth a war or even worth unnecessarily putting your cre in danger" isn't Star Fleet's protocol.

reignofevil
Nov 7, 2008


Sometimes you gotta break the rules.


Alright set course at maximum warp, reverse direction.

..."But sir... the freighter is hailing us for-"

"I know cadet. I know. But we're going to the heart of this problem. We're going back in time."

Sodomy Hussein
Oct 9, 2005

Everything is subject to the needs of intelligence, for geniuses like me. If we actually solve problems, people won't need me and people like me, and this is a travesty without end. You have to squeeze the poor so they know their place, and you fucking commies forget that.


Who What Now posted:

I don't understand how "Leave them, one ship isn't worth a war or even worth unnecessarily putting your cre in danger" isn't Star Fleet's protocol.

That's one of the two basic options. You can actually chill and let the ship go. Supposedly this triggers more RP where your ship threatens to mutiny at the idea of you not violating intergalactic treaties to fall for an obvious trap/rescue moron space colonists.

Also now that I've looked, the Maru wikipedia article highlights one of my solutions, "YOLO everyone to death," and makes note that cadets frequently try to hack the sim

quote:

The Kobayashi Maru (Original Series novel)
The Kobayashi Maru (1989) by Julia Ecklar tells how each of these officers faced the problem:[2]

- Chekov evacuates his ship and then crashes it into the three Klingon cruisers, destroying all four ships in the process and (inadvertently) all of the evacuees as well.

- Sulu realizes it is probably a trap and refuses to cross the Neutral Zone. His senior crew threaten mutiny but are faced down by a fellow cadet who warns of making a bad situation worse.

- Scotty tricks the simulation into overestimating the effectiveness of a theoretical attack against the Klingon ships' overlapping shielding. Academy staff, in response, reassign Scotty from command school to engineering.

- Kirk reprograms the simulated Klingons to be afraid of and apologetic toward "The Captain Kirk", arguing that he expected to build a comparable reputation.

Sodomy Hussein fucked around with this message at 20:28 on Feb 1, 2021

SlothfulCobra
Mar 27, 2011

STOP BEING EVIL.


Tulip posted:

demanding to retake a pass/fail test that you already apparently passed is extremely nerd poo poo

Kirk was originally written as being a turbo nerd in academy.

Farmer Crack-Ass
Jan 2, 2001

~this is me posting irl~


Who What Now posted:

I don't understand how "Leave them, one ship isn't worth a war or even worth unnecessarily putting your cre in danger" isn't Star Fleet's protocol.

i think that goes back to how Starfleet draws heavily on naval analogues and traditions, and one of the big things about the sea is that sailors don't leave people stranded if they can help it


like, even in B5, the Earth Alliance Earthforce has a general order saying "if someone puts out a distress call and we're not at war with them, you fuckin' help them"


also, while "it could start a war" is definitely supposed to be part of the dilemma, "it could put the ship and crew at risk" wouldn't be; it may not be "the primary mission" or whatever but rendering aid to people in trouble is absolutely core to Starfleet's purpose. recall when Kirk burned out the engines in saving Harry Mudd and the space hookers

Pick
Jul 19, 2009



Nap Ghost

Maybe the real kobayashi was the maru we made along the way

Bogus Adventure
Jan 11, 2017

More like "Bulges Adventure"

SlothfulCobra posted:

Kirk was originally written as being a turbo nerd in academy.

Kirk still is a turbo nerd, even in the prime and JJ universes. It's just that he also successfully functions in social situations, which is a completely foreign concept to most Star Trek nerds.

nine-gear crow
Aug 10, 2013

low vis




Bogus Adventure posted:

Kirk still is a turbo nerd, even in the prime and JJ universes. It's just that he also successfully functions in social situations, which is a completely foreign concept to most Star Trek nerds.

Also the key line that a lot of people miss in Star Trek '09 is that Kirk had already taken the Kobayashi Maru test twice already, so the version seen in the film is not his first run through it. The whole reason he's unbearably smug about the whole thing is that he had already had his poo poo pushed in by the test twice legitimately, so him gloating as he goes back and cracks it over his knee through cheating is 100% warranted. Because that's basically how anyone would act upon walking into a test you'd already failed twice and this time knowing that it was literally impossible to lose because you already did the work to beat it before it even began.

nine-gear crow fucked around with this message at 02:24 on Feb 2, 2021

Tulip
Jun 3, 2008

I have no country to fight for; my country is the earth; I am a citizen of the world.




Bogus Adventure posted:

Kirk still is a turbo nerd, even in the prime and JJ universes. It's just that he also successfully functions in social situations, which is a completely foreign concept to most Star Trek nerds.

I actually rather like that the captains tend to have a past that that they've synthesized/inverted. Kirk was a huge nerd, but as a captain he's confident about going with his gut. Picard was a huge jock but as a captain he's learned to appreciate taking things slow and technical and artsy. And Sisko started in engineering but on DS9 his main solution to problems is to support and push his subordinates, trusting them to find the best solution without his micromanagement.

I don't know anything about the other captains so no idea if it holds up.

nine-gear crow
Aug 10, 2013

low vis




Tulip posted:

I actually rather like that the captains tend to have a past that that they've synthesized/inverted. Kirk was a huge nerd, but as a captain he's confident about going with his gut. Picard was a huge jock but as a captain he's learned to appreciate taking things slow and technical and artsy. And Sisko started in engineering but on DS9 his main solution to problems is to support and push his subordinates, trusting them to find the best solution without his micromanagement.

I don't know anything about the other captains so no idea if it holds up.

Archer was an entitled frat boy product of nepotism growing and captained the NX-01 like an entitled frat boy product of nepotism.

Sodomy Hussein
Oct 9, 2005

Everything is subject to the needs of intelligence, for geniuses like me. If we actually solve problems, people won't need me and people like me, and this is a travesty without end. You have to squeeze the poor so they know their place, and you fucking commies forget that.


It's worth noting that Kirk is a bit of a power fantasy to begin with

Farmer Crack-Ass
Jan 2, 2001

~this is me posting irl~


Sodomy Hussein posted:

It's worth noting that Kirk is a bit of a power fantasy to begin with

that's most space opera captains tbh

Barudak
May 7, 2007



Again, part of the appeal of the Kyobashi Maru is being told "this is gonna gently caress you up" and seeing what you've got to go against it. There should be staggeringly few in a human organization for command positions that wouldn't want to flex their creativity and try and prove everyone else wrong.

See my fanfic for stories about a captain who does not attempt to rescue the ship.

Tulip posted:

I actually rather like that the captains tend to have a past that that they've synthesized/inverted. Kirk was a huge nerd, but as a captain he's confident about going with his gut. Picard was a huge jock but as a captain he's learned to appreciate taking things slow and technical and artsy. And Sisko started in engineering but on DS9 his main solution to problems is to support and push his subordinates, trusting them to find the best solution without his micromanagement.

I don't know anything about the other captains so no idea if it holds up.

Going by this Janeway opposed torture and was mormon

Sodomy Hussein
Oct 9, 2005

Everything is subject to the needs of intelligence, for geniuses like me. If we actually solve problems, people won't need me and people like me, and this is a travesty without end. You have to squeeze the poor so they know their place, and you fucking commies forget that.


quote:

See my fanfic for stories about a captain who does not attempt to rescue the ship.

Torpedo the ship yourself, invite the Klingons for bloodwine

Bogus Adventure
Jan 11, 2017

More like "Bulges Adventure"

nine-gear crow posted:

Also the key line that a lot of people miss in Star Trek '09 is that Kirk had already taken the Kobayashi Maru test twice already, so the version seen in the film is not his first run through it. The whole reason he's unbearably smug about the whole thing is that he had already had his poo poo pushed in by the test twice legitimately, so him gloating as he goes back and cracks it over his knee through cheating is 100% warranted. Because that's basically how anyone would act upon walking into a test you'd already failed twice and this time knowing that it was literally impossible to lose because you already did the work to beat it before it even began.

Which is why Chris Pine as Kirk is the one thing I truly love about the reboot. The other actors range from good to meh, but Pine loving CHANNELED Kirk at every moment.

Zesty
Jan 17, 2012



Tulip posted:

I actually rather like that the captains tend to have a past that that they've synthesized/inverted. Kirk was a huge nerd, but as a captain he's confident about going with his gut. Picard was a huge jock but as a captain he's learned to appreciate taking things slow and technical and artsy. And Sisko started in engineering but on DS9 his main solution to problems is to support and push his subordinates, trusting them to find the best solution without his micromanagement.

I don't know anything about the other captains so no idea if it holds up.

Janeway was a scientist and WARP PARTICLES *farrrrt*

SlothfulCobra
Mar 27, 2011

STOP BEING EVIL.


From my understanding, I think that Kirk as he was written early in the show was a lot different from the characterization that he would be stereotyped as from outside, especially after the movies came 'round and Shatner's ego could start bleeding into the character more.

Tulip posted:

Picard was a huge jock but as a captain he's learned to appreciate taking things slow and technical and artsy.

From my experience in college, archaeology is the jockiest of the sciences. It comes close with geology because geologists can afford to be a lot more cavalier and careless, but archaeologists follow a more heroic narrative having to hunt down relatively small ruins instead of doing larger surveys of land, which feels more sporty.

Tulip
Jun 3, 2008

I have no country to fight for; my country is the earth; I am a citizen of the world.




It's cool to have another form of confirmation that I didn't miss out much on the Star Treks I've skipped. Still wanna check out Lower Decks.

SlothfulCobra posted:

From my experience in college, archaeology is the jockiest of the sciences. It comes close with geology because geologists can afford to be a lot more cavalier and careless, but archaeologists follow a more heroic narrative having to hunt down relatively small ruins instead of doing larger surveys of land, which feels more sporty.

I knew more archaeologists in grad school and later than during college and my experience was that they're mostly just very prone to sex cults/general poly stuff. Something about carefully cataloguing each thimble of dirt you move from a 600 year old kitchen for weeks without a real shower causes some lowered sense of boundaries.

nine-gear crow
Aug 10, 2013

low vis




Tulip posted:

It's cool to have another form of confirmation that I didn't miss out much on the Star Treks I've skipped. Still wanna check out Lower Decks.

The caveat I use is that Lower Decks starts out kinda rough because it's got a lot of establish and a short time to do it given its format and premise, but it quickly finds its footing and absolutely nails it both as a Star Trek series and as a comedy series by the time it's done its first season. Definitely watch it when you can, it's great.

SlothfulCobra
Mar 27, 2011

STOP BEING EVIL.


Lower Decks is pretty fantastic, although it's a very different angle on things from the classic Star Trek shows. I went in expecting Rick and Morty lite, but they really do find a good balance of Trek optimism and the sort of millennial ennui that the series was inspired by.

Angry Salami
Jul 27, 2013

Don't trust the skull.


Who What Now posted:

I don't understand how "Leave them, one ship isn't worth a war or even worth unnecessarily putting your cre in danger" isn't Star Fleet's protocol.

In the real world, all ships have an obligation under maritime law to respond to any distress call and provide all possible aid, even to enemy ships, pirates, or vessels within a hostile nation's territorial waters.

Bootcha
Nov 13, 2012

Truly, the pinnacle of goaltending


Grimey Drawer

I feel like the concept of the Kobayashi Maru would be better served if it was one of a series of tests that were open ended but utterly unfair. One single "source of character information" is pretty reductionist, in the sense of "oh Captain X did the KM scenario this way, so now you know how he's gonna act from here on out".

Barudak
May 7, 2007



Bootcha posted:

I feel like the concept of the Kobayashi Maru would be better served if it was one of a series of tests that were open ended but utterly unfair. One single "source of character information" is pretty reductionist, in the sense of "oh Captain X did the KM scenario this way, so now you know how he's gonna act from here on out".

The implication is it is constantly updated and tweaked, but there are also huge gaps of time between shows.

Ive always assumed there are other Kyobashi Maru class tests, like navigating two subordinates who do not want to work together or handling two conflicting orders from Starfleet, or attending a dinner party with an alien that just hates you and you don't know their culture and other occupational problems. The Kyobashi Maru is just the one that is the cornerstone and most important since it requires getting other people to practice their skills as a group exercise and its the only one to simulate spaceship pew pew so everyone focuses on jt.

Barudak
May 7, 2007



Objective: You must negotiate the release of the impounded federation vessel Kyobashi Maru from the Frogulons of Frogmus 5. They despise humans and are deeply insulted by humans who point out they look like earth frogs and have a deep seated hatred of humans for eating them. Dinner will be flies served loose. No other information is known about the culture

Bootcha
Nov 13, 2012

Truly, the pinnacle of goaltending


Grimey Drawer

I'm thinking more along the lines of "Captain, take that hill."

Or perhaps a "You have two objectives: Don't let them declare war on us, and keep them in this room no matter what."

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Barudak
May 7, 2007



I assume the lesser tests would be more personalized based on your specialty. Someone going into security has to root out the mole (you'll never find it!) while someone doing comms has to figure out how to on the fly parse open ended but possibly hostile messages and info the universal translator can't do.

These are in a sense, extra helpful since when you fail these it can point out what you didn't consider so when you're in the field you can go "ok heres my A approach and here is what the Kyobashi Maru said I would miss B approach"

Edit: There should absolutely be an episode exploring that. Where the villain has plotted around knowing how say the security chief operates to hide their crime then at the end is exposed when out of nowhere the chief suddenly does a second completely different kind of sweep that catches them. Closing line some pithyness about how by failing you can learn to succeed.

Barudak fucked around with this message at 05:34 on Feb 3, 2021

  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • Post
  • Reply