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SlothfulCobra
Mar 27, 2011

STOP BEING EVIL.


Wesly's initiation tests were pretty in-line with that. There were weird tricks like the guy who hated politeness, and then there was the thing specifically tailored for him where he couldn't save both men and had to deal with letting one die because Picard did that to his dad.

Starfleet is organized specifically to maximize drama.

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Bogus Adventure
Jan 11, 2017

More like "Bulges Adventure"

SlothfulCobra posted:

Wesly's initiation tests were pretty in-line with that. There were weird tricks like the guy who hated politeness, and then there was the thing specifically tailored for him where he couldn't save both men and had to deal with letting one die because Picard did that to his dad.

Starfleet is organized specifically to maximize drama.

That episode owned, especially when the coward just stands up, dusts himself off, and leaves Wesley standing there. drat I love how loving wacky TNG Season 1 was. It still had that Big Goofy '60s energy.

Sir DonkeyPunch
Mar 23, 2007

I didn't hear no bell


Dammit, I got the test with the virus that made my robot helmsman horny, and the rest of my crew drunk

RBA Starblade
Apr 27, 2008

Going Home.



Games Idiot Court Jester


A test where all you have to do is fly your spaceship to this empty point in space. Literally nothing happens in the three hours it takes.

Bootcha
Nov 13, 2012

Truly, the pinnacle of goaltending


Grimey Drawer

"Your next series of tests is to receive and perform testing from Grand Admiral Janeway."

Sir DonkeyPunch
Mar 23, 2007

I didn't hear no bell


Bootcha posted:

"Your next series of tests is to receive and perform testing from Grand Admiral Janeway."

i'd rather do a Kolvoord Starburst in one of those pods from TMP

Farmer Crack-Ass
Jan 2, 2001

~this is me posting irl~


Barudak posted:

The implication is it is constantly updated and tweaked, but there are also huge gaps of time between shows.

I don't think the Kobayashi Maru itself is ever specifically mentioned after Star Trek 6, and never in the TV shows. The book writers had a field day with it, but those can be fairly contradictory since the standard there for a long time was basically "do whatever as long as you don't damage the brand."

muscles like this!
Jan 17, 2005



SlothfulCobra posted:

Wesly's initiation tests were pretty in-line with that. There were weird tricks like the guy who hated politeness, and then there was the thing specifically tailored for him where he couldn't save both men and had to deal with letting one die because Picard did that to his dad.

Starfleet is organized specifically to maximize drama.

There was also Troi's Command test where she kept failing because the answer was that you had to order a crewmember to do something that would kill them (in her case holo-Geordi.) Although the problems with that test are that first of all it is on a holodeck so making a life or death decision like that is easy when you know it is all fake and second holo-Geordi doesn't really offer any resistance to the order which a real crew member probably would have.

The thing with Wesley worked because he didn't know it was actually a test.

Patrick Spens
Jul 21, 2006

"Every quarterback says they've got guts, But how many have actually seen 'em?"


Pillbug

muscles like this! posted:

There was also Troi's Command test where she kept failing because the answer was that you had to order a crewmember to do something that would kill them (in her case holo-Geordi.) Although the problems with that test are that first of all it is on a holodeck so making a life or death decision like that is easy when you know it is all fake and second holo-Geordi doesn't really offer any resistance to the order which a real crew member probably would have.

It's not like Troi doesn't know it's fake it's that having to do it confronts her with the reality that military command can mean taking the responsibility to send someone a friend to their death, and she realizes she never wants to be a in a position to do that for real.

Barudak
May 7, 2007



Bootcha posted:

"Your next series of tests is to receive and perform testing from Grand Admiral Janeway."

<ensign solemnly walks to the space coffin, climbs in, and launches themself into the sun>

Bogus Adventure
Jan 11, 2017

More like "Bulges Adventure"

Bootcha posted:

"Your next series of tests is to receive and perform testing from Grand Admiral Janeway."

That reminds me about the Secret Logs of Mistress Janeway...

quote:

Commanding Voyager was Kathryn Janeway, an experienced and respected officer with a background in the sciences. She was also a devout hedonist, and unknown to most, leading a double life as the principal dominatrix at The Club, a very exclusive resort. The boorish reader may see only a woman obsessed with her own desires. Given the situation, this judgement is unfair. It is a testament to Janeway's self control and dedication to duty that she waited as long as she did before she began the pursuit of slaves among her own crew. One should also note her absolute discretion and ability to separate her lives as Captain and Mistress. Although she had a fiance, Mark, at the time of her departure, theirs was an open relationship.

Would you like to know more?

https://www.squidge.org/novad/MJaneway/Stories/MJIntro.html

Who What Now
Sep 10, 2006

In the cheery brightness of the 41st millennium there is only CHRISTMAS SPIRIT!


Angry Salami posted:

In the real world, all ships have an obligation under maritime law to respond to any distress call and provide all possible aid, even to enemy ships, pirates, or vessels within a hostile nation's territorial waters.

That's maritime law. Spacitime law has no such obligation.

Sir DonkeyPunch
Mar 23, 2007

I didn't hear no bell


Who What Now posted:

That's maritime law. Spacitime law has no such obligation.

Boatswain's whistles at you WRONG

Bootcha
Nov 13, 2012

Truly, the pinnacle of goaltending


Grimey Drawer

muscles like this! posted:

There was also Troi's Command test where she kept failing because the answer was that you had to order a crewmember to do something that would kill them (in her case holo-Geordi.) Although the problems with that test are that first of all it is on a holodeck so making a life or death decision like that is easy when you know it is all fake and second holo-Geordi doesn't really offer any resistance to the order which a real crew member probably would have.

The thing with Wesley worked because he didn't know it was actually a test.

Now I'm imagining a different kind of holo-Geordi.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6vo4Fdf7E0w#t=53s

SuperMechagodzilla
Jun 9, 2007

NEWT REBORN


Kobayashi Maru is a propaganda thing, where every cadet is made to watch a lengthy video of civilians getting senselessly brutalized by the inscrutable Klingon Empire.

It’s like one of those fundamentalist ‘hell houses’.

Hodgepodge
Jan 29, 2006


SuperMechagodzilla posted:

Kobayashi Maru is a propaganda thing, where every cadet is made to watch a lengthy video of civilians getting senselessly brutalized by the inscrutable Klingon Empire.

It’s like one of those fundamentalist ‘hell houses’.

You're right, but it's more successfully manipulative than either, imo.

u brexit ukip it
Oct 30, 2004


Exciting Lemon

Bootcha posted:

Or perhaps a "You have two objectives: Don't let them declare war on us, and keep them in this room no matter what."

That's easy, just kill everybody. Clearly I'm captain material

Barudak
May 7, 2007



u brexit ukip it posted:

That's easy, just kill everybody. Clearly I'm captain material

Congratulations cadet, have been assigned to the Federation Star Ship Crimson Chemise.

Laterite
Mar 14, 2007

It's Gutfest '89

Grimey Drawer

u brexit ukip it posted:

That's easy, just kill everybody. Clearly I'm captain material

From cadet to admiral in 30 seconds

Admiralty Flag
Jun 7, 2007

I do not wish to create joinder with your stank ass



Slippery Tilde

Kobiyashi Maru is an unfair test for cadets for one reason -- at the academy, they don't teach you how to rewire the main deflector dish to emit an inverse graviton pulse, and an inverse graviton pulse can do any sort of bullshit you like, up to and including knocking a pack of Klingon ships out of action. Nope, you've got to learn that on your first cruise.

Also, do senior officers have nothing better to do than to act in Saavik's KM scenario?

SidneyIsTheKiller
Jul 16, 2019

She's delusional,
"where's god", etc.
Completely suicidal.
One day she snaps.
She wants to kill herself
but she realizes that
teen suicide is out this year
and homicide is a much healthier therapeutic expression.


indigi posted:

imo the real problem with the Kobayashi Maru is that the computers and poo poo all catch on fire and the crew has to play act being hurt or dead or whatever. like what is that, what does that bring to the training. why is Mr Logical Spock pretending to be dead.

It's so Kirk can go, "Aren't you dead?" and Spock does his raised eyebrow thing and the audience laughs and stops thinking so much about the whole "they better loving not kill Spock" thing.

I know thinking too hard about plot devices is all part of the fun but it could stand to be reiterated that the Kobayashi Maru is the way it is primarily so they could use stock footage, fulfill what was surely a studio mandated focus on space combat*, and to disarm "Spock dies" rumors.

(*The elephant in the room that no one on the production ever mentions out loud is that they were clearly under pressure to make something "more like Star Wars," and it only becomes more obvious the more you learn about it: early scripts involved Kirk trying to quell a rebellion on a Federation planet that in a surprise twist is being led by his son David, who is being manipulated by a mysterious figure in a hooded cloak with psychic powers who turns out to be Khan, who has also gotten his hands on a new weapon powerful enough to destroy a planet, and this all leads to a climax featuring Kirk and Khan engaging in a sword duel! Edit: Oh, and at the end Kirk even hears Spock's voice speaking to him from beyond the grave... I know no on wants to admit "yeah, we were totally selling out" but come on, son)

SidneyIsTheKiller fucked around with this message at 14:56 on Feb 6, 2021

RBA Starblade
Apr 27, 2008

Going Home.



Games Idiot Court Jester


SuperMechagodzilla posted:

Kobayashi Maru is a propaganda thing, where every cadet is made to watch a lengthy video of civilians getting senselessly brutalized by the inscrutable Klingon Empire.

It’s like one of those fundamentalist ‘hell houses’.

At least one cadet's test was to be one of the Klingon ships, you know, to show how brutal the Klingons can be

Another's was to be the civilian ship's captain

Timby
Dec 23, 2006

Your mother!



Bogus Adventure posted:

Lmao, I will always find Shatner's massive ego funny.

Shatner didn't write those books (nor did he pen anything else with his byline on it). Heck, by his own admission, he only learned how to use email like 15 - 20 years ago and he still doesn't really know how to work his iPhone.

nine-gear crow
Aug 10, 2013

low vis




SidneyIsTheKiller posted:

Kirk trying to quell a rebellion on a Federation planet that in a surprise twist is being led by his son David, who is being manipulated by a mysterious figure in a hooded cloak with psychic powers who turns out to be Khan,

Well, it was a good premise up to this point anyway...

Cerv
Sep 14, 2004

This is a silly post with little news value.



SidneyIsTheKiller posted:

It's so Kirk can go, "Aren't you dead?" and Spock does his raised eyebrow thing and the audience laughs and stops thinking so much about the whole "they better loving not kill Spock" thing.

I know thinking too hard about plot devices is all part of the fun but it could stand to be reiterated that the Kobayashi Maru is the way it is primarily so they could use stock footage, fulfill what was surely a studio mandated focus on space combat*, and to disarm "Spock dies" rumors.

(*The elephant in the room that no one on the production ever mentions out loud is that they were clearly under pressure to make something "more like Star Wars," and it only becomes more obvious the more you learn about it: early scripts involved Kirk trying to quell a rebellion on a Federation planet that in a surprise twist is being led by his son David, who is being manipulated by a mysterious figure in a hooded cloak with psychic powers who turns out to be Khan, who has also gotten his hands on a new weapon powerful enough to destroy a planet, and this all leads to a climax featuring Kirk and Khan engaging in a sword duel! Edit: Oh, and at the end Kirk even hears Spock's voice speaking to him from beyond the grave... I know no on wants to admit "yeah, we were totally selling out" but come on, son)

we really dodged a bullet with that poo poo. and instead we got the pinnacle of sci-fi movies

Bogus Adventure
Jan 11, 2017

More like "Bulges Adventure"

Admiralty Flag posted:

Kobiyashi Maru is an unfair test for cadets for one reason -- at the academy, they don't teach you how to rewire the main deflector dish to emit an inverse graviton pulse, and an inverse graviton pulse can do any sort of bullshit you like, up to and including knocking a pack of Klingon ships out of action. Nope, you've got to learn that on your first cruise.

Also, do senior officers have nothing better to do than to act in Saavik's KM scenario?

Spock pulled some strings for his protege.

Uncle Lloyd
Sep 2, 2019



And they may not have actually had anything better to do, if the Enterprise was crewed entirely by cadets at that point then the bridge staff would have to go along with whatever the training curriculum is.

Gravitas Shortfall
Jul 17, 2007

Utility is seven-eighths Proximity.



Barudak posted:

Ive always assumed there are other Kyobashi Maru class tests, like navigating two subordinates who do not want to work together or handling two conflicting orders from Starfleet, or attending a dinner party with an alien that just hates you and you don't know their culture and other occupational problems.

Gravitas Shortfall fucked around with this message at 12:52 on Feb 11, 2021

SidneyIsTheKiller
Jul 16, 2019

She's delusional,
"where's god", etc.
Completely suicidal.
One day she snaps.
She wants to kill herself
but she realizes that
teen suicide is out this year
and homicide is a much healthier therapeutic expression.


Cerv posted:

we really dodged a bullet with that poo poo. and instead we got the pinnacle of sci-fi movies

In fairness, pretty much every early draft I've been exposed to for any film was really lame. I suppose Aliens was pretty close to the finished product from the beginning but that's about it. Writing really is a process where you just take a big dump on the page at first and then continually chisel the poo poo away until hopefully it becomes good.

Barudak
May 7, 2007




Thank you web artist, for realizing my vision better than I could.

Gravitas Shortfall
Jul 17, 2007

Utility is seven-eighths Proximity.



Barudak posted:

Thank you web artist, for realizing my vision better than I could.

That's actually a weirdly compressed image from a print comic, and that's not the usual artist on the book.

It is written by John Allison tho, who started in webcomics.

EDIT: found better images

Gravitas Shortfall fucked around with this message at 12:53 on Feb 11, 2021

Tulip
Jun 3, 2008

I have no country to fight for; my country is the earth; I am a citizen of the world.




is Starfleet Academy actually good at training?

Gravitas Shortfall posted:

That's actually a weirdly compressed image from a print comic, and that's not the usual artist on the book.

It is written by John Allison tho, who started in webcomics.

EDIT: found better images

He still makes webcomics sometimes but yeah that one's print/comixology. Daisy's an incredible character, Giant Days are some of the few comics I don't regret buying.

Bogus Adventure
Jan 11, 2017

More like "Bulges Adventure"

Tulip posted:

is Starfleet Academy actually good at training?

Given that a non-military force is the dominant power in the Alpha Quadrant?

YES.

SlothfulCobra
Mar 27, 2011

STOP BEING EVIL.


I wouldn't call them non-military.

Sanguinia
Jan 1, 2012

#RXT REVOLUTION~!
2000





SlothfulCobra posted:

I wouldn't call them non-military.

Its a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada

Yvonmukluk
Oct 10, 2012

Everything is Sinister



I kind of wonder if Starfleet would use the Valiant from DS9 as the basis of a training scenario. Just put them in the shoes of Ensign Nog and say 'your job is to stop these morons from getting themselves killed'.

Barudak
May 7, 2007



Sanguinia posted:

Its a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada

They conduct research much like japanese fishing trawlers research how delicious whales are

MadDogMike
Apr 9, 2008

Can I come out and play?

Yvonmukluk posted:

I kind of wonder if Starfleet would use the Valiant from DS9 as the basis of a training scenario. Just put them in the shoes of Ensign Nog and say 'your job is to stop these morons from getting themselves killed'.

Easy, kill them myself, then they can't do it themselves. Boy, indiscriminate murder is really good at solving test situations in Starfleet!

Sanguinia
Jan 1, 2012

#RXT REVOLUTION~!
2000





Barudak posted:

They conduct research much like japanese fishing trawlers research how delicious whales are

How dare you? Starfleet brought whales back from extinction using time travel, the exact OPPOSITE of what Whalers do!

EXACT. OPPOSITE.

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Schwarzwald
Jul 27, 2004

Don't Blink


Sanguinia posted:

How dare you? Starfleet brought whales back from extinction using time travel, the exact OPPOSITE of what Whalers do!

EXACT. OPPOSITE.

I think you'll find that it was the crew of a Klingon ship that brought the whales back, and the one Starfleet admiral that was aboard got demoted for his involvement.

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