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In December 2020 I bought an erhu and signed up for online lessons having never picked up a bowed instrument in my entire life previously and I saw that there was no thread about violins or other bowed instruments, so here is one! I've always been interested in picking up and learning a new instrument and I always liked the sound of the erhu. Like most people in the US I'm sure, I kind of fell in love with the sound of the instrument from movies like Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon, Hero, and House of Flying Daggers as well as many others out there. I didn't really know much about the instrument itself, but when I saw that there was an instructor online that specialized in it, I decided to just go for it and buy something the week before Christmas. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=thqUc1bf8IU It's been about a month of daily practice and weekly virtual lessons and I've been able to start getting comfortable with this thing. I just wanted to get a thread started for bowed instruments. Since I mentioned violin also in the subject here's also a video with both violin and erhu: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r-726vBwPvI Open to ideas to put stuff into the OP, I have no idea what I'm doing in this forum!
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Jan 27, 2021 22:57
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| # ¿ Apr 20, 2024 00:01 |
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I also have no idea about violas, violins, and so on, but I think there are probably some people in the wings who have some advice. I have been, however, continuing my daily practice and weekly lessons on the erhu and I will likely update the OP to better explain some of the concepts that I'm learning. If there is some interest I can also talk about some of the very basic things that I'm learning, such as how jianpu (movable do numeric solfege) factors into the learning process and resources that are helping me to learn the instrument specifically, and just "learn an instrument" more generally (practice journals, etc).
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Feb 7, 2021 04:34
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I'm about to start my weekly lesson and the past couple of weeks I have been working on fourth finger practice (pinky), slurring, and trills. I'm not entirely sure what lesson routine is supposed to be like for violin, but since this is probably around the end of 8 weeks worth of lessons, it feels like there's been a lot of ground covered! I might do a writeup in greater detail on these techniques and what I understand of them to help digest them a little better.
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Feb 14, 2021 17:47
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An erhu is part of a class of bowed instruments where the bow sits in between the strings and has pressure applied to stress the bowhair to the inner or outer string. Depending on the tuning and shape of the body, it can have a higher or lower pitch. For an erhu, it is tuned for D4 for the inner string and A4 on the outer string. You press inwards with your middle and ring finger to apply pressure to the bowhair on inner string, and use thumb and index finger to apply pressure to outer string. As a result, rapid shifting between the strings has to do with adjusting hand position and finger tension, which also is dependent on how fast you're moving the bow and where on the bow you are. I'd guess that this is mostly the same for any bowed instrument, except you're using both sides of the bowhair so they might be engineered a bit differently. The natural tuning for an erhu is in solfeggio and a movable do, so it starts with D as your "do" and goes D, E, F#, G, A on inner string; A, B C#, D, E on outer string for first position D. Using Chinese "Jianpu" notation, this is also referenced by using a numeric system, 12345 and 5671*2* (technically the * represents an octave higher, so in instead of D4 it's D5). Since jianpu uses solfege as the root, it has "movable do", so different positions have different places where the 1, or "do", starts. Lesson History Since I'm in my mid-30s and don't really have any experience but I'm enthusiastic about learning we've been using an accelerated lesson program which has followed thusly:
Notes on Intonation Because the erhu is fretless, muscle memory and wrist position is required in order to determine where to put your fingers on left hand (or right hand if you were switching which one is handling the string). There is a string tensioner called a qianjin which also serves as a visual reference where the hand rests in first position, and is best described as letting your fingers drop into natural position without clutching the neck of the instrument like you're holding an egg. The neck rests lightly at the root of the thumb near the palm but can shift. Normally playing notes of a higher pitch is applying very light pressure onto the strings instead of hammering them onto a fret board like a guitar. More complex songs are played with multiple positions in the same key and so the hand should be able to touch the strings in the correct positions while also remaining agile and fluid to move up/down the strings as needed. Intonation is also playing cleanly with the bowing hand with the right amount of force. Too much force and you get a "scraping" noise, and too little force you get a "thin" noise. Ideally, you would play with enough tension on the bow and adjust as your bow speed increases/decreases and your bow position. This is also a pretty big reason why open string practice is so important. By playing with a focus on intonation quality, you are able to get clean sounding notes for all the notes you play. Practice Guide Generally speaking I have been trying to find time in the day to practice since I work 11:00 AM to 8:00 PM and usually have social obligations from 9:30 PM to around 11:30 or midnight. Lessons are on Sunday, so I try to do the following: - Practice during lunch breaks, or if I get up early enough, practice before work, or practice after work before my other social stuff, or practice after all that stuff is over. Usually practice will go from 15 to 60 minutes, averaging around 30 minutes. - I try to practice every day and there's only really one day since December that I missed, but that was because I was working without breaks for 13 hours straight and I had to be up for on-call the following day, so my brain and motor skills were roasted. That's fairly rare but it does happen, so I let that poo poo go (I did practice for about 15 minutes after midnight, but my logging app didn't count it as practicing same-day so RIP me) - I found a bridge mute for erhu which was 8 bucks but had to ship all the way from Singapore, so it took almost a full month to post to Texas. It enables me to play after civil noise hours are over since I live in an apartment. - I log all practice that I do except when I'm doing silent practice or research on songs. I was previously using a Google Doc but have since moved to using an iOS app called "Andante" so I can more accurately record how much time I'm spending and when. My original practice notes for Dec and January are here: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1zWfbaTIVw4EkovRdmnqyLkS5xATyOZdNZ716s6dwIJ8/edit?usp=sharing - For practice I will start by warming up with open string and then move up to scales and song material from there. I found the following practice videos from Sarah Joy to be pretty useful: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=253UMKMfOoc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a0h9AOoEq-g - Especially when introducing left hand technique into practice, I was getting a lot of shoulder pain since I wiped out on a motorcycle in 2018 and slammed my shoulder on the pavement and never got it corrected. As a result, I've had to do some stretching sessions when it got pretty bad: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6jHsraw2NIk - I have found that practicing and warming up for at least 30 minutes before lessons makes for a much better lesson experience. Typically I will practice the hour immediately before lessons begin and either wait until after lessons are over to eat breakfast or do 30 minutes of practice and warmup then take a short break for coffee before we get started. - I rosin usually once a week or fortnight for the bowhair and wipe down the strings to make sure there's no excess residue in case the bowhair touches other parts of the instrument during storage. - I bought a music stand that can pack up and get out of the way. I use an iPad Pro to view my music sheets using a program called Newzik on iOS that I run in the foreground while Andante is in the background. I can mark directly on the sheets to highlight stuff I'm having trouble with or add visual reminders for rests or separate phrases. - For tuning and timekeeping I use a combo tuner/metronome from KORG, the TM-60. I set it to tune at 440Hz for D and A and also use it when practicing scales to make sure my fingers are in the right spot, but as time goes on I find that I need to look at it less and less and I can hear when I'm out of tune. Song Guide All this poo poo is literally in Chinese with the jianpu notation, so if I need reference material I need to go dig it up by doing an OCR of the PDFs that my instructor is sending me. Process: - Take a screenshot of the specific text to be translated (typically, the entry name) - Go to https://translate.yandex.com/ocr - Paste the image - Click "Translate" on the top right - Copy and paste the resulting OCR'ed Chinese characters into Youtube + erhu or 二胡 (same thing). Note: you can also use this to find other songs also in erhu too, probably - Find examples to listen to for further practice. First song demo: Twinkle Twinkle Little Star https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XMgrKWdXzlw Second song demos: Song of Oroqen (?) - 鄂倫春小唱 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tJXbyeeapDo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EOcf393tMg8 Third song demo: Fengyang Flower Drum - 鳳陽花鼓 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5_sTa13Twxc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mJjxXG5GkzY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DxW_keC906Q https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zyYBVscgyo8 Fourth song demo: Tianyuan spring color (?) - 田园春色 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L9vXoaqFrYM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IRUrMi45NZk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qJSdYqvGdiM&t=26s Comparison to Violin Instruction There's a Youtube channel of professional violin players called TwoSet Violin that normally operate out of Australia I think, they have a lot of comedy videos for musicians and hang out with Hilary Hahn and such. However, they also provide some interesting insight on how violin practice goes, so I'm curious to know if the speed at which I'm receiving instruction and practicing is "normal" or not relative to other bowed instruments: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OqTc_EOpmk8 My instructor is a currently working professional musician who specializes in erhu and other Chinese string instruments as well as performing with orchestras. She recently put out a new performance on her channel, which I will present as it uses the zhonghu (lower pitch), erhu, and banhu (higher pitch). She noted that we're moving along at a very ambitious pace but so far it has been manageable for me. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PwACKRFw2qk aldantefax fucked around with this message at 21:42 on Feb 14, 2021 |
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Feb 14, 2021 20:55
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I don't really know if I would pick up a violin any time soon but maybe in a year or two of study with this instrument. It does seem like that there are similarities and differences on a more nuanced level than just the bow position, the main thing of course being violins are more widely available in the US and have more lesson material in English. As it goes, the amount of English-speaking material for erhu is quite slim, and probably the more into other related Central, South, and East Asian instruments you go, the more esoteric it gets. For example, there is a Korean traditional zither-type instrument which is played as a bowed instrument instead of plucked called the ajaeng. Bowed instruments do also have the benefit of having the bowing action but also plucking though (pizzicato, I think?) which adds some extra options for performance and sound making. Here's a demo of an ajaeng ensemble with a percussionist killin' it with accompaniment: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7-alTu2ooh0 My boss at work plays the cello and I seem to get the impression most people who played the violin did so as a kid because it was the thing to do and likely a bit cheaper and more portable than a piano...which meant as a parent you could drop off your kid for an hour or two at violin lessons and go get a smoothie or something.
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Feb 15, 2021 21:05
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Further notes on some things learning erhu: - There is, of course, a language barrier but it's not quite so bad once you understand more about it. There are naturally a huge amount of Chinese and Taiwanese resources on the instrument, and surprisingly a lot of Japanese interest as well. You find some English-speaking support from the form of places in Singapore, and very rarely in the US (there are two instructors on TakeLessons and one is only familiar with just the basics of erhu, whereas the other one I went with is a specialist in the instrument). - Thanks to learning more about how jianpu works it becomes easier to understand other tablature that is more commonly found out there. Jianpu is actually very common and used for basic instruction in East Asian music rather than using a traditional Western-style musical score and staff. That doesn't mean that it doesn't exist, just that you have some other options as well and is generally easier to sight read when starting out. - Erhu is actually used in a lot of popular music in Chinese pop especially. Whereas a lot of pop music in the US (as an example) is based more heavily on synth and keyboard and vocals, you can find a lot of examples where the instrument is featured prominently. Most common pairings with the erhu tend to follow other string instruments, piano, and so on that complement well. - Finding instructional material is a bit difficult. There are ten official proficiency grades for Erhu from a couple of music schools in China but their curricula is hard to come by. The book my instructor is teaching from she'd have to go fly back to China to get another physical copy to send to me, so for now she's been taking pictures with her phone and sending me exercises page by page. This works surprisingly better than you might originally think! If anybody has any questions about the learning process or how to get started in greater detail I am happy to provide any other resources which have worked for me thus far. Otherwise, I will periodically update the thread as I make progress on a semi-weekly basis once I remember to do so. Like sebmojo I also invite anybody else who plays a bowed instrument to share their experiences! I'm particularly interested as an adult learner to understand how other people approach practice and repertoire, as I'd like to continue playing this instrument longer term in as regular a cadence as possible. Hopefully by the end of the first year of regular instruction I can maybe play a full suite of pieces or get something recorded on Youtube that I'm happy with.
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Feb 16, 2021 01:12
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Surprisingly, I have kept with the musicking and it is generally feeling more comfortable every day, but I still dedicate a large amount of time to do practice drills and such before heading into repetoire. There are some days where I feel bad because I tend to practice in the evening since I’m a late riser and work is generally demanding enough that I work right through lunch breaks. There was a bit of a slump too the past couple of weeks since the weather around here in Texas has been a bit insane and part of the mental recovery is an extended reboot sequence for my brain, which is mostly complete now. I got a Yamaha erhu book of Studio Ghibli songs and I started learning how to play the outtro theme to Spirited Away since it’s rated as one of the easier songs. It’s playing in Gmaj but since you don’t retune the strings you just move around a couple of minor positioning things in first position. It helps that I know what it’s supposed to sound like so I’m picking it up pretty quickly.
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Mar 12, 2021 07:23
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I had to take a break from playing the erhu to do some physical therapy but I have started building a repertoire of songs. My instructor recommends that I should try to do a recital at some point, which I have never done, but I’m trying to get more comfortable with playing around people by bringing my erhu with me to a tea house that I volunteer at part time and co-work from. I found from a posture perspective if I’m sitting on a higher stool (I’m around 5’8-5’9”) then I’m able to play for longer without developing any shoulder or wrist/neck pain, which it seems was a result of overcompensating for sitting in a computer chair while normally practicing. Now, I have a piano bench at home to practice with, and things are much better!
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Jul 5, 2021 00:09
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Does anybody have any advice on preparing repertoire for a small recital? My teacher wants me to start getting used to performing in front of people. I think I would probably want to prepare 4 or 5 songs to really focus on and play smoothly for a performance, but I've never done a recital before so I dunno how this is supposed to 'play out', so to speak.
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Jul 20, 2021 04:47
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I figure that now would be a good time to give an update on learning the erhu since I posted this thread about a year ago and I have kept up with it, and also did a recorded concert from home: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qZUPgUOUGb4 The songs themselves were fairly simple and straightforward but ornamentation is the next major part of technique that I'll need to learn over the next several months. On the advice of my instructor, doing two concerts a year as well as performing in general makes sense to continue getting practice in. Adding more music to the repertoire of varying complexity will also help in adding more flexibility to take on the road. I did end up traveling to Seattle in January just before the concert with a backpack and my erhu to practice there, even though I wasn't doing a concert there. Generally speaking, since I can play D and G in first and second position, the next set of techniques to learn through the songs are: - Rolling vibrato - Different shorter slides - Alternative fingering (stretching up/down the strings while maintaining wrist position) - Third position - Arpeggios - Changing tempo during a song - Changing key during a song - Staccato The next concert program will be in August and a live event. It will feature what is considered to be 'grade 4' pieces (depends on which advancement system you're using but they're all pretty similar), which are all pretty challenging for me at the moment: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xI15ujuNiE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=81zX92svVHw The more complex pieces which the above two build up on are: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EgIQz4B-EnU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hVdaaxrVmVs This piece is slow and fairly short but is kind of the "show me if you know how to actually play this instrument" kind of deal, since it is a showcase of techniques as well as interpreting the sheet music. It's a foundational piece to begin to enter the world of professional-grade playing! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ZDRgKWXCR4 This is a long piece with lots of interesting details and key changes. Together with the above these are classic pieces that are recognizable by a lot of folks. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tOfvmpcu7a0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uPQhJpJQrbU This is another folk type song that was also later co-opted as propaganda music when lyrics got added to it but also features tempo change and lots of fast bowing. There are also variations where it's played slow or as a duet. Lastly, and this is a pretty long stretch goal, but one of the most energetic and iconic songs that people have seen maybe from places like TwoSet Violin's Youtube channel: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z84h5np8Kew https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I0vhtdDhVJ4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-vpT6wgUO2c This requires learning the key of F and features a pizzicato section as well as the extremely fast tempo. The actual song itself is pretty easy in terms of what is played but the speed and techniques used in it are what make it a banger. There used to be a Youtube channel by Nicole Li, a performing artist that was based in Vancouver, but she took it down a while ago and kind of went fully offline (she does show up in other videos though from time to time). Anyway, that's what's up with erhu!
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Feb 22, 2022 18:31
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Hawkperson posted:I’m at work so I had to sneak a peek at just a few videos but overall, holy poo poo, awesome. You sound great! Thank you! The upshot to learning erhu is that there's a pretty lengthy repertoire to dive into and a lot of performances that demonstrate what a professional can do with the same songs. Particularly with techniques that you can do ornamentation with in any song like the rolling vibrato. It took a little while before I could put the basic notes in the right place and timing without having to consciously think about it, and also to train my brain to hear the notes even without playing them so I could practice silently (or quietly, with a bridge mute). There are two other instruments in the same family that are higher and lower octave (banhu and zhonghu, respectively) that eventually I'd like to explore way down the road. My instructor did a 2021 new year's special which featured all three as a different arrangement from the original version of the song: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PwACKRFw2qk That's someone who has been playing and performing since the 90s and is also a singer-songwriter. Last Sunday's lesson she did a huge solo live, had a music group meeting, then we had our lessons late in the evening after that, so she's always on the hustle. A tough teacher but she's great and I wouldn't even know where to begin on a bunch of this stuff without her being a guide.
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Feb 23, 2022 15:39
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| # ¿ Apr 20, 2024 00:01 |
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Enfys posted:That was a great performance, aldantefax! Thank you! I was using a few apps on the iPad to help with my practice but since I typically warm up with scales and dive into technique and repertoire and have a general idea of what I need to practice the most important thing is that I do it and do so regularly. So far, the most helpful one has been Newzik, which is a cloud-subscription sheet music program that allows for attaching your own recordings as well as audio files, tuning, and so on. You can create set lists, do photo scans, and it's all quite neat. It doesn't keep practice logs but I have started just writing in my sheet music books what I need to do and also have a spare small notebook to remind myself of what I gotta run through. This thread also is useful to keep up with from time to time (well, maybe year to year) as progress continues. I'm hoping that as I continue to practice the rolling vibrato I'll be able to return to the other repertoire that I used for the first concert setlist and be able to make it sound even better. 
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Feb 24, 2022 22:16
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