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boar guy
Jan 25, 2007



i think the best solution to the WFH "issue" is to have it be something you earn as a perk. junior employees eventually ease in to it, if they decide they want to

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Barudak
May 7, 2007



This is Japan corporate culture but I had a new employee message me apologetically that he wasn't sure if I knew his wife was pregnant but that he would take the minimum time off so it didn't impact the team and be seen as taking advantage and blah blah I told him maximize the days off whenever the kid is born and if I saw him at the office at any point during company provided paternity leave I would write him up.

SkyeAuroline
Nov 12, 2020



boar guy posted:

i think the best solution to the WFH "issue" is to have it be something you earn as a perk. junior employees eventually ease in to it, if they decide they want to

Not 100% same take but by god actually having workers in the same building for training purposes is a hell of a lot easier than wrangling Teams bullshit.

boar guy
Jan 25, 2007



SkyeAuroline posted:

Not 100% same take but by god actually having workers in the same building for training purposes is a hell of a lot easier than wrangling Teams bullshit.

Teams loving sucks

Zoom> Meet> Teams but they are all pretty bad

wish orgs would just adopt Asana and Discord and be done with it

SkyeAuroline
Nov 12, 2020



boar guy posted:

Teams loving sucks

Zoom> Meet> Teams but they are all pretty bad

wish orgs would just adopt Asana and Discord and be done with it

The sad thing is we already had Slack (that works great), but nope, can't use it for anything and nobody you'd need to reach by it responds most of the time. 90% of the way to Discord already...

boar guy
Jan 25, 2007



SkyeAuroline posted:

The sad thing is we already had Slack (that works great), but nope, can't use it for anything and nobody you'd need to reach by it responds most of the time. 90% of the way to Discord already...

agreed, slack is great

Zarin
Nov 11, 2008

I SEE YOU


SkyeAuroline posted:

Caveat as the sole "in-office" advocate here, WFH really does not work for everyone. I don't like in-office work but I crater fast at home and lack all of my accessibility setup and the space or finances to duplicate it. (Hell I can't even find a desk chair for home that doesn't cause me pain, and I'm already up in Steelcase/HM territory.)

I'm curious now if the OP meant that WFH was the ONLY way they work, or just part of the culture there.

Maybe it's because I only ever seem to work for ancient companies run by ancient people, but it's like pulling teeth trying to get ANY sort of flexibility at these places.

I just started at a new place during COVID and I'm already keeping an eye out for where the exits are because I'm getting the impression that they are gonna want everyone back in the office 5 days a week, no exceptions.

nexus6
Sep 2, 2011

If only you could see what I've seen with your eyes

ArbitraryC posted:

They donít raise any flags because they just offload their work onto everyone else and management usually doesnít care if stuff gets done. If everyone did what they do eventually management does start noticing because not enough stuff is getting done, and thatís when it gets axed.

lol "Employees are abusing the 4-day work week flexible working and not pulling their weight! Should we address employees not doing their work? No, the flexible working is the problem!"

boar guy posted:

agreed, slack is great

Slack is good for office communication, but the video calls suck because you can't view people as a grid or even turn on people's names. It's that thing where you only see the person currently talking/making noise. I have a weekly call with another company and I have no way of telling who these people are.

nexus6 fucked around with this message at 17:31 on May 4, 2021

Hyrax Attack!
Jan 13, 2009

We demand to be taken seriously


Zarin posted:

I'm curious now if the OP meant that WFH was the ONLY way they work, or just part of the culture there.

Maybe it's because I only ever seem to work for ancient companies run by ancient people, but it's like pulling teeth trying to get ANY sort of flexibility at these places.

I just started at a new place during COVID and I'm already keeping an eye out for where the exits are because I'm getting the impression that they are gonna want everyone back in the office 5 days a week, no exceptions.

Yup that's my MegaCorp. When stuff is back to normal I'd be surprised if one day a week remains an option for WFH. And the ancient people running the place definitely applies, as they wouldn't use WFH so why would it be offered? Same with on site childcare. It's unimaginable any MegaCorp would offer such a perk (multiple competitors in the same zip code have had it for years). Hey, why does so much of our younger talent keep leaving?

ClothHat
Mar 2, 2005

ASK ME ABOUT MY LOVE OF THE LUMPEN-GOBLITARIAT
protip: trust no links I post


Barudak posted:

Im probably a poo poo manager but my philosophy is "if all our goals are met/exceeded and we don't sound like we don't know what we're doing in meetings with higher ups, I do not give a single solitary poo poo if all of you go into the bathroom at the office and do black tar heroin 4 days a week until you pass out, just don't tell me about it or get caught because then I have to address that"

That said if I have people who are like "gently caress me Im burnt out" Im going to address that, my ideal is my whole team can collectively optimize and maximize loving around time.

Being a manager is odd because the ceiling for being a high performer feels unattainably high a lot of the time, but passing the bar to not be absolute poo poo is easy as hell. Just don't be a petty tyrant about dumb bullshit, admit fault occasionally, and have some patience with people and you soar above a sea of shithead managers. Being a great boss is hard, but being a mediocre one is a piece of cake.

Lazyfire
Feb 4, 2006

God saves. Satan Invests


nexus6 posted:

lol "Employees are abusing the 4-day work week flexible working and not pulling their weight! Should we address employees not doing their work? No, the flexible working is the problem!"

I'm all for flexible schedules, and firmly believe that in an office environment the 40 hour work week is a complete construct, especially in the work-from-home era. There's zero excuse for restricting people's ability to work on a flexible schedule if their main job is being in meetings or submitting something by a deadline. I think companies just don't want to lose control of their employees' lives at this point.

It does remind me, though: In my old job you were considered a slacker if you didn't work 5 10 hour days. Anything beyond 40 hours was overtime and so paid time-and-a-half, but there was this weird disdain for anyone who just did five/eight or four/ten. A lot of the people who worked 50 hours during the week would show up for eight more hours on Saturday every weekend as well. You would see people put off finishing things starting Thursday because that was when supervisors came around to ask about Saturday availability, and having a ton of open assignments was a qualifier for weekend hours. People would finish things at a normal pace on Thursday but not submit, come in and do nothing at all on Friday and then on Saturday would hit "submit" on 20 projects within the first hour and just sit back for the rest of the day. I never understood the (mostly) guys who thought they were somehow winning by sitting at work for 20 extra hours a week.


SkyeAuroline posted:

Caveat as the sole "in-office" advocate here, WFH really does not work for everyone. I don't like in-office work but I crater fast at home and lack all of my accessibility setup and the space or finances to duplicate it. (Hell I can't even find a desk chair for home that doesn't cause me pain, and I'm already up in Steelcase/HM territory.)

I totally understand the non-WFH group of people out there, the numbers are probably far higher than we like to imagine. We, thankfully, have the space for two home offices, but both my wife and I know multiple people who can't escape kids or spouses because of the WFH or school stuff during the pandemic. I'm a firm believer in the idea that a company should be providing the tools you need to do your job from an ergonomic and technological standpoint. Too many companies seem to leave it up to the employee for that sort of thing, which is just crazy to me.

AHH F/UGH
May 25, 2002



Barudak posted:

This is Japan corporate culture but I had a new employee message me apologetically that he wasn't sure if I knew his wife was pregnant but that he would take the minimum time off so it didn't impact the team and be seen as taking advantage and blah blah I told him maximize the days off whenever the kid is born and if I saw him at the office at any point during company provided paternity leave I would write him up.

lmao That rules

Hopefully he responded with tearful gratitude like Solomon Northrup at the end of 12 Years a Slave? Right?

np19
Dec 25, 2016


Hired as a data analyst and Iím being asked to chip in on this project where we delve into outliers and find out why sales estimates are wrong.

The total amount of jobs sold that have outliers is roughly 1/3 the total population of jobs. I donít think these people know what outliers mean.

Batterypowered7
Aug 8, 2009

The mist that chills you keeps me warm.



Barudak posted:

This is Japan corporate culture but I had a new employee message me apologetically that he wasn't sure if I knew his wife was pregnant but that he would take the minimum time off so it didn't impact the team and be seen as taking advantage and blah blah I told him maximize the days off whenever the kid is born and if I saw him at the office at any point during company provided paternity leave I would write him up.

*Wife has baby*
Employee: Otsukaresama desu *immediately leaves for the office*

Atopian
Sep 23, 2014

I need a security perimeter with Venetian blinds.

Deki posted:

My workplace just sent out a notice saying they're removing the ability to compress your schedule to 4 days a week or have your work start before 7 am, and are giving us a whole week to figure out what's up.


We've had retention issues for years and this is gonna piss a lot of people off who only have stuck around because of the flexibility

Workplaces can be surprisingly blind to what employees value.
The employer I'm in the process of leaving has new top-level management, and as part of a big push to "standardise conditions with competitors" has only been offering contracts with earlier start times and fewer holidays.
And sure, those were relatively generous... because the salaries surely weren't. Obviously the salaries aren't changing.

So then they get all surprised at everyone leaving if they're able to. I know they're surprised, rather than this just being stealth layoffs, because they are going to be critically understaffed soon, and are sending increasingly desperate retention emails to all the people who have already signed contracts elsewhere.

And... how could any of this be a surprise to anyone? Presumably they are aware that the people they employ are capable of at least basic maths?

Outrail
Jan 4, 2009

www.sapphicrobotica.com


Atopian posted:

Workplaces can be surprisingly blind to what employees value.
The employer I'm in the process of leaving has new top-level management, and as part of a big push to "standardise conditions with competitors" has only been offering contracts with earlier start times and fewer holidays.
And sure, those were relatively generous... because the salaries surely weren't. Obviously the salaries aren't changing.

So then they get all surprised at everyone leaving if they're able to. I know they're surprised, rather than this just being stealth layoffs, because they are going to be critically understaffed soon, and are sending increasingly desperate retention emails to all the people who have already signed contracts elsewhere.

And... how could any of this be a surprise to anyone? Presumably they are aware that the people they employ are capable of at least basic maths?

You’ve got to remember that these are just simple C level executives. These are people of the company. The common clay of the corporate hierarchy. You know… morons.

TITTIEKISSER69
Mar 19, 2005

I'M JUST HERE TO KISS TITTIESS AND WIN FOOTBALL GAMES!
(AND GET EVERYBODY FIRED)


nexus6 posted:

The Basecamp drama really should have its own thread and not a derail, but the way I've read it is that senior management's response to "why did you knowingly do nothing about a racist internal joke for years?" was "What? No. That's political talk. No political talk (other than politics the founder approves of). If you don't like it you can get out".

https://www.platformer.news/p/-what-really-happened-at-basecamp

Update from the Schadenfreude thread:

nexus6 posted:

The Basecamp implosion is pretty schaden-y

https://twitter.com/CaseyNewton/status/1389369715638767619

Does this count as politics?

Blue Moonlight
Apr 28, 2005
Bitter and Sarcastic

The only nitpick I have about that tweet is that it suggests they left with the racist apologist, when in reality they (or at least the majority) left because of how clearly awful the company leadership is.

Splode
Jun 18, 2013

~chill yourself~


Blue Moonlight posted:

The only nitpick I have about that tweet is that it suggests they left with the racist apologist, when in reality they (or at least the majority) left because of how clearly awful the company leadership is.

The first section of the article implies that a little bit too. I'm not sure if the author is just a bad writer, or a dickhead

Local Weather
Feb 12, 2005

Don't worry, I'll give you a sign. The sign will be that life is awesome

I have to say after an all-hands meeting yesterday I am really, actually impressed with the company I work for now. After working 11 years for a company that never gave raises and 5 years for an insane, ultra-Kafkaesque bureaucratic nightmare company, I am now working somewhere sensible that seems to actually care about what the employees think. I'm having a hard time actually admitting it, like if I say something it will go away.

In any case, they told use that there will be no required return to office. Unlike a lot of companies that said that a while back then went back on it, they're serious. We can work from anywhere we can get an internet connection as long as they can legally handle the tax situation. At first I was ready for a permanent return to office but now I think I"m ready to embrace working from my little home office, at least I can play Hearthstone and gently caress around on the internet here without anyone giving me poo poo about it.

Son of Rodney
Feb 22, 2006

ohmygodohmygodohmygod



Local Weather posted:

I have to say after an all-hands meeting yesterday I am really, actually impressed with the company I work for now. After working 11 years for a company that never gave raises and 5 years for an insane, ultra-Kafkaesque bureaucratic nightmare company, I am now working somewhere sensible that seems to actually care about what the employees think. I'm having a hard time actually admitting it, like if I say something it will go away.

In any case, they told use that there will be no required return to office. Unlike a lot of companies that said that a while back then went back on it, they're serious. We can work from anywhere we can get an internet connection as long as they can legally handle the tax situation. At first I was ready for a permanent return to office but now I think I"m ready to embrace working from my little home office, at least I can play Hearthstone and gently caress around on the internet here without anyone giving me poo poo about it.

Very jealous honestly, my current hope for my career is to find a job where I'm able to do just that so I can finally move to a cheaper city while still getting the same amount of money.

Zarin
Nov 11, 2008

I SEE YOU


Local Weather posted:

I have to say after an all-hands meeting yesterday I am really, actually impressed with the company I work for now. After working 11 years for a company that never gave raises and 5 years for an insane, ultra-Kafkaesque bureaucratic nightmare company, I am now working somewhere sensible that seems to actually care about what the employees think. I'm having a hard time actually admitting it, like if I say something it will go away.

In any case, they told use that there will be no required return to office. Unlike a lot of companies that said that a while back then went back on it, they're serious. We can work from anywhere we can get an internet connection as long as they can legally handle the tax situation. At first I was ready for a permanent return to office but now I think I"m ready to embrace working from my little home office, at least I can play Hearthstone and gently caress around on the internet here without anyone giving me poo poo about it.

Congratulations!

Maybe in two years I'll have to look you up and ask you where that is lol

Imagined
Feb 2, 2007


Dealing with WFH my work obviously had issues with specific people not doing their work. Did they handle this by focusing on those specific people, either firing, reprimanding, or implementing some form of accountability for the specific people who weren't pulling their weight?

Hell no.

Their solution? Everyone has to message the supervisor on Teams when they 'log in', when they go to lunch, when they get back from lunch, and then send an email at the end of the day saying what they did today. THERE WE FIXED IT.

I will never understand how many "solutions" are simultaneously way more work for the supervisor, completely ineffective, AND kindergarten-level collective punishment.

I also don't understand -- if you can't tell the difference by what I'm actually producing (or not) if I'm actually sitting at my WFH desk at 8AM until 4:30PM every day -- why does it actually matter if I'm sitting there 8 hours a day during the designated hours? If I appear to be producing the same amount of work as always, the amount you were happy to pay me for in the Before Times, why do you care if it takes me 2 hours or 12, or if I do it at 4AM or 8PM?

Imagined fucked around with this message at 14:28 on May 5, 2021

Hyrax Attack!
Jan 13, 2009

We demand to be taken seriously


Imagined posted:

I will never understand how many "solutions" are simultaneously way more work for the supervisor, completely ineffective, AND kindergarten-level collective punishment.

Lol when a coworker got caught playing games on his work computer our manager made him move his desk to be in her cubicle so she could keep an eye on him, like a kid having to sit next to teacher during storytime because he won't stop squirming. The dude was in his mid-60s.

SkyeAuroline
Nov 12, 2020



Imagined posted:

I will never understand how many "solutions" are simultaneously way more work for the supervisor, completely ineffective, AND kindergarten-level collective punishment.

I also don't understand -- if you can't tell the difference by what I'm actually producing (or not) if I'm actually sitting at my WFH desk at 8AM until 4:30PM every day -- why does it actually matter if I'm sitting there 8 hours a day during the designated hours? If I appear to be producing the same amount of work as always, the amount you were happy to pay me for in the Before Times, why do you care if it takes me 2 hours or 12, or if I do it at 4AM or 8PM?

It matters so they can have control. It doesn't matter if the control actually does anything as long as they have it and you don't. Ineffective kindergarten-level punishment is enough to make that happen.
We have the same issue.

Gin_Rummy
Aug 4, 2007


Big corporations are so stupid. There is basically zero work in my group right now and yet we have three open requisitions to bring in new senior staff... so we will have more people spreading out practically zero work, and two or three people who probably deserve a promotion arenít getting it lol

kntfkr
Feb 11, 2019

GOOSE FUCKER


Hey, can you get these 80 items with only vague descriptions and no details costed from CHINA over night?

Boiled Water
Apr 5, 2006

YOU ARE A BRAIN
IN A BUNKER


kntfkr posted:

Hey, can you get these 80 items with only vague descriptions and no details costed from CHINA over night?

yes sir

who cares if they're good or even right, job number one is to be liked by your boss

Hyrax Attack!
Jan 13, 2009

We demand to be taken seriously


Gin_Rummy posted:

Big corporations are so stupid. There is basically zero work in my group right now and yet we have three open requisitions to bring in new senior staff... so we will have more people spreading out practically zero work, and two or three people who probably deserve a promotion arenít getting it lol

Dang, we're the opposite. Hey, this load bearing team is critically understaffed and one person works late each day and hasn't taken a day off in two years is burned out. Shouldn't more staff be hired, or at least hired replacements for those who left?

Management: no

Hey the podcast/newsletter team with nearly 20 people that has to bribe employees with gift cards to read their emails wants more folks.

Management: whatever they need, they are our heroes

McGavin
Sep 18, 2012

av paid for by the firensd of lowtax spine foundation

, you flithy pig


Maybe if that one guy listened to the podcast and read the newsletter he'd be inspired to work harder.

ClothHat
Mar 2, 2005

ASK ME ABOUT MY LOVE OF THE LUMPEN-GOBLITARIAT
protip: trust no links I post


(Two weeks ago)
Boss: I want you to implement changes to the way you do this thing, either do it as A or do it as B.
I go ahead and implement option B.

(Today)
Boss: How is it going implementing the thing?
Me: Good, I've implemented option B across the board.
Boss: I wanted you to do option A.
Me: I thought you said option A or B.
Boss: I don't think B is enough, I think it needs to be A.
Me: Ok if you want A I'll implement that instead.
Boss: Well it's not about what I want, I would like you to poll the team and see if that's what they want. You need to look at what are the outcomes of doing B and if that's sufficient or if we need option A.
Me: Ok just to be clear, do you want me to go to the team and ask their opinion, or stick with B for now and evaluate how it's working, or just switch to A now?
Boss: I want you to do A.

Hyrax Attack!
Jan 13, 2009

We demand to be taken seriously


McGavin posted:

Maybe if that one guy listened to the podcast and read the newsletter he'd be inspired to work harder.

Hahaha it's not me but the person I mentioned has been forced to listen to the podcast during a meeting as their listener count was too low. So they played it during a meeting to boost the count... by one.

Samuel L. Hacksaw
Mar 25, 2007

Never Stop Posting.



ClothHat posted:

(Two weeks ago)
Boss: I want you to implement changes to the way you do this thing, either do it as A or do it as B.
I go ahead and implement option B.

(Today)
Boss: How is it going implementing the thing?
Me: Good, I've implemented option B across the board.
Boss: I wanted you to do option A.
Me: I thought you said option A or B.
Boss: I don't think B is enough, I think it needs to be A.
Me: Ok if you want A I'll implement that instead.
Boss: Well it's not about what I want, I would like you to poll the team and see if that's what they want. You need to look at what are the outcomes of doing B and if that's sufficient or if we need option A.
Me: Ok just to be clear, do you want me to go to the team and ask their opinion, or stick with B for now and evaluate how it's working, or just switch to A now?
Boss: I want you to do A.

I got a not-boss like that. I ignore him and do whatever b/c he doesn't review me and isn't included in leadership development reviews b/c he was terrible as a leader.

kntfkr
Feb 11, 2019

GOOSE FUCKER


Two jobs ago I was so checked out that I used outlook to simply block dumb people I didn't like in the company from emailing me and wasting time.

AHH F/UGH
May 25, 2002



ClothHat posted:

(Two weeks ago)
Boss: I want you to implement changes to the way you do this thing, either do it as A or do it as B.
I go ahead and implement option B.

(Today)
Boss: How is it going implementing the thing?
Me: Good, I've implemented option B across the board.
Boss: I wanted you to do option A.
Me: I thought you said option A or B.
Boss: I don't think B is enough, I think it needs to be A.
Me: Ok if you want A I'll implement that instead.
Boss: Well it's not about what I want, I would like you to poll the team and see if that's what they want. You need to look at what are the outcomes of doing B and if that's sufficient or if we need option A.
Me: Ok just to be clear, do you want me to go to the team and ask their opinion, or stick with B for now and evaluate how it's working, or just switch to A now?
Boss: I want you to do A.

Murder should be legal sometimes

Dr_Amazing
Apr 15, 2006

It's a long story

ClothHat posted:

(Two weeks ago)
Boss: I want you to implement changes to the way you do this thing, either do it as A or do it as B.
I go ahead and implement option B.

(Today)
Boss: How is it going implementing the thing?
Me: Good, I've implemented option B across the board.
Boss: I wanted you to do option A.
Me: I thought you said option A or B.
Boss: I don't think B is enough, I think it needs to be A.
Me: Ok if you want A I'll implement that instead.
Boss: Well it's not about what I want, I would like you to poll the team and see if that's what they want. You need to look at what are the outcomes of doing B and if that's sufficient or if we need option A.
Me: Ok just to be clear, do you want me to go to the team and ask their opinion, or stick with B for now and evaluate how it's working, or just switch to A now?
Boss: I want you to do A.

I think you're working for my wife. We constantly have this conversation:

ClothHat
Mar 2, 2005

ASK ME ABOUT MY LOVE OF THE LUMPEN-GOBLITARIAT
protip: trust no links I post


Also options A and B were about having more frequent meetings with my staff and giving more documented feedback to them. Every meeting I have with my people is already extensively documented and I share it with the staff with To Do items marked in bold to help them keep track of things. All of these meetings with my boss where I'm told something only to be informed I was told something completely different weeks later are done over zoom and entirely undocumented of course.

Outrail
Jan 4, 2009

www.sapphicrobotica.com


ClothHat posted:

(Two weeks ago)
Boss: I want you to implement changes to the way you do this thing, either do it as A or do it as B.
I go ahead and implement option B.

(Today)
Boss: How is it going implementing the thing?
Me: Good, I've implemented option B across the board.
Boss: I wanted you to do option A.
Me: I thought you said option A or B.
Boss: I don't think B is enough, I think it needs to be A.
Me: Ok if you want A I'll implement that instead.
Boss: Well it's not about what I want, I would like you to poll the team and see if that's what they want. You need to look at what are the outcomes of doing B and if that's sufficient or if we need option A.
Me: Ok just to be clear, do you want me to go to the team and ask their opinion, or stick with B for now and evaluate how it's working, or just switch to A now?
Boss: I want you to do A.

Sometimes violence is the answer.

Managers need to wear body cams.

Rent-A-Cop
Oct 15, 2004

I posted my food for USPOL Thanksgiving!



I have started forcing clients to talk to a project manager to schedule a meeting if they want to talk to me. I am doing this because I used to just call them and they abused that privilege. So now everyone must suffer.

These constant asinine meetings have improved my productivity because now I have an excuse to ignore Skype for 7 hours a day.

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

nexus6
Sep 2, 2011

If only you could see what I've seen with your eyes

ClothHat posted:

Also options A and B were about having more frequent meetings with my staff and giving more documented feedback to them. Every meeting I have with my people is already extensively documented and I share it with the staff with To Do items marked in bold to help them keep track of things. All of these meetings with my boss where I'm told something only to be informed I was told something completely different weeks later are done over zoom and entirely undocumented of course.

Yeah, that's probably intentional. I used to work on a project that required co-operation with a guy in a different company who managed the client's Salesforce instance. He'd never give you direct access to make the changes you want yourself, never responded to emails and outright hated any kind of ticketing system.

If you wanted him to do something you had to do it over a call and he'd usually do it right away, but he was always sure to make there was no paper trail. This was because we'd often need him to do the same things over and over (why he didn't have an automated task is beyond me) but since he made sure there was no pile of tickets or email requests you couldn't easily bitch about him to the client

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