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Orange Devil
Oct 1, 2010

Wullie's reign cannae smother the flames o' equality!
Hmm I wonder if any of this has anything to do with fragging which started happening a lot more in later wars.

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Orange Devil
Oct 1, 2010

Wullie's reign cannae smother the flames o' equality!

exmachina posted:

If anyone started revolutions but stopped early, there is a marked change starting with the Haitian chapter.

In what way?

Teriyaki Hairpiece posted:

Stop paraphrasing.

Yeah we're going to need some quotes now.

Orange Devil
Oct 1, 2010

Wullie's reign cannae smother the flames o' equality!

V. Illych L. posted:

also the establishment of the soviet union was a *huge* deal to european labour movements

parties shattered in the wake of the great war and the third international was one of the big alternatives for a while. the KPD, a party openly taking orders from moscow, was a major force in german politics soon after being utterly crushed in the failed german revolution. the french communists under thorez were quickly established as a 10% party with a credible programme for taking over the government. the italian communists were strong enough that italian elites decided to go with the fascists.

in the US and UK the soviet revolution didn't find many adherents, but it had huge consequences in terms of crackdown and even in britain they did an actual general strike before chickening out. revolution was very much in the air in the years following the bolshevik seizure of power

Not to mention soldiers being demobilized in a way that was deliberately slow and phased so as to prevent lots of combat experienced and armed labourers all coming back home at once and maybe having some *ideas* about using their skills and equipment to prevent going back to the lovely lives they came from.

Orange Devil
Oct 1, 2010

Wullie's reign cannae smother the flames o' equality!

Teriyaki Hairpiece posted:

I read Baron Wrangel's memoir about 13 years ago and all I remember is his contention that the Whites lost because they were assholes who just wouldn't offer people anything. My summation of his very long argument is "We sucked. We just really, really sucked."

This is a key component of the brainworms of declining empires. Just the utter refusal to give the people that ostensibly form your power base even the barest minimum of scraps. And then meeting any appeals or protestations about this with increasingly brutal violence.

Orange Devil
Oct 1, 2010

Wullie's reign cannae smother the flames o' equality!
Nobility is oligarchs.

Orange Devil
Oct 1, 2010

Wullie's reign cannae smother the flames o' equality!
Never trust a history book which places the British on the side of good. I mean, just look at them.

Orange Devil
Oct 1, 2010

Wullie's reign cannae smother the flames o' equality!

Teriyaki Hairpiece posted:

The idea of who had the right to the kresy, the borderlands, is really incredibly hard to pick apart. Historically, ethnographically, everything. Wilno/Vilnius even more so. Stalin "fixed" everything by simply deciding he got to keep the 52% of 1939 Poland he got after invading the place with Hitler and then brutally ethnically cleansing everybody until the populations matched the borders. That was one way to do it. It still loving sucked for all involved, however

Did it suck for Stalin?

Orange Devil
Oct 1, 2010

Wullie's reign cannae smother the flames o' equality!
So it loving sucked for most involved then.


I care deeply about accuracy in C-SPAM posting.

Orange Devil
Oct 1, 2010

Wullie's reign cannae smother the flames o' equality!
Ahh, early 20th century European royalty, just going around having a laugh, all good fun in the family, occassionally kill 20 million people when things get out of hand.

Orange Devil
Oct 1, 2010

Wullie's reign cannae smother the flames o' equality!

War and Pieces posted:

These men are only living in disease conditions because of the threat of violence from their own commanders

Those kind of conditions soldiers and mercenaries (but I repeat myself) just used to desert en-masse. Like read up on 17th and 18th century warfare. But nationalism is a hell of a drug.

Orange Devil
Oct 1, 2010

Wullie's reign cannae smother the flames o' equality!

Raskolnikov38 posted:

that number seems incredibly low

Uhmm it says over 500. It doesn't state an upper bound.

So it's totally correct 0 pinocchios.

Orange Devil
Oct 1, 2010

Wullie's reign cannae smother the flames o' equality!

Fish of hemp posted:

Didn't the anarchists use more of their time to kill priests than to actual war effort?

Whomst among us?

Orange Devil
Oct 1, 2010

Wullie's reign cannae smother the flames o' equality!

Teriyaki Hairpiece posted:

Reminder that 12 weeks before Pearl Harbor, the Senate had a special committee that was investigating whether Hollywood was being too mean to the Nazis

And? Were they?

Orange Devil
Oct 1, 2010

Wullie's reign cannae smother the flames o' equality!

Teriyaki Hairpiece posted:

Treaty of Versailles === Nazi Germany is one of my least favorite historical misconceptions

Mine is hyperinflation ---> Nazi Germany.


The worst offender is the war museum in Caen, which has a huge timeline printed on the goddamn wall showing hyperinflation in the early 20s. Then this ending. Then a bunch of Weimar Republic stuff, then the Wall Street Crash, then the rise of the Nazis, about 10 years later. So the correct timeline. But then the loving tour guide is standing directly beneath the wall talking to a class of French high school kids and telling them that Germans just got a serious case of that ~*~economic anxiety~*~ because of the hyperinflation and this caused otherwise regular people to vote nazi because they promised them jobs.

Orange Devil
Oct 1, 2010

Wullie's reign cannae smother the flames o' equality!

StashAugustine posted:

Modern history begins in 1492

1453 imo

Orange Devil
Oct 1, 2010

Wullie's reign cannae smother the flames o' equality!
Good post/username combo.

Orange Devil
Oct 1, 2010

Wullie's reign cannae smother the flames o' equality!

Weka posted:

Most people in the UK seem to support keeping the monarchy so I'm not sure getting rid of it would be democratic.
FPP might not be perfectly democratic, but then what is? It is a flawed democratic system. Athens was a democracy, just a very flawed one.
The last two are just problems you tend to see in democracys. You would probably see them in some hypothetical ideal democracy.

How the gently caress was Athens a democracy?

Orange Devil
Oct 1, 2010

Wullie's reign cannae smother the flames o' equality!

Tankbuster posted:

Don't look at me they invented the word.

Greeks lie.


They have amazing food though so I forgive them.

Orange Devil
Oct 1, 2010

Wullie's reign cannae smother the flames o' equality!
So when does the class of people allowed to vote in a democracy become so restricted that it no longer qualifies as a democracy, in your view?

Orange Devil
Oct 1, 2010

Wullie's reign cannae smother the flames o' equality!
Weka you are dumb as hell, sorry about your brain.

Orange Devil
Oct 1, 2010

Wullie's reign cannae smother the flames o' equality!
Pickett's charge.

Orange Devil
Oct 1, 2010

Wullie's reign cannae smother the flames o' equality!
Meth and leaded gasoline.


It's kinda like how if civilization still exists in a couple hundred years and people read a history book about the collapse of the US empire in our time, there's a good chance the mainstream books don't mention that a good chunk of the US political and economic elite are ancient ghouls riddled with Alzheimers. Just some important background info you need to understand how the gently caress things went the way they did.

Orange Devil
Oct 1, 2010

Wullie's reign cannae smother the flames o' equality!

Slavvy posted:

Disposing of household garbage can be a problem.

Solution: shove it under your bed with a broom until it's safely out of view.

This is the bedrock of decades of western economic "growth".

For some reason the planet is becoming less hospitable to human life now.

Orange Devil
Oct 1, 2010

Wullie's reign cannae smother the flames o' equality!
Nixon (muttering): Jesus Christ.

Orange Devil
Oct 1, 2010

Wullie's reign cannae smother the flames o' equality!
A once in a lifetime opportunity to take a giant poo poo all over the Federal army.

Orange Devil
Oct 1, 2010

Wullie's reign cannae smother the flames o' equality!

Sounds like a cool bachelor party.

Orange Devil
Oct 1, 2010

Wullie's reign cannae smother the flames o' equality!
Being a child soldier forcibly addicted to drugs probably sucks a lot of poo poo.

Orange Devil
Oct 1, 2010

Wullie's reign cannae smother the flames o' equality!

R. Mute posted:

personally, i wouldn't want to die in any war.

What about a communist revolution, comrade?

Orange Devil
Oct 1, 2010

Wullie's reign cannae smother the flames o' equality!
Well it's not every day I learn of a completely insane imperial atrocity I didn't already know about.


Holy loving poo poo what in the absolute gently caress?

Orange Devil
Oct 1, 2010

Wullie's reign cannae smother the flames o' equality!

MonsieurChoc posted:

The real heroes of the vietnam war: the soldiers who fragged their officers.

I’m sure a few of those was because the officer tried to stop the troops from committing war crimes on the regular though.

Orange Devil
Oct 1, 2010

Wullie's reign cannae smother the flames o' equality!
With all the recent scholarship showing how the Eastern Front was actually completely different than the popularly known Nazi account of events (what a surprise) I am half expecting it to be revealed soon that the Romanian army actually punched above its weight and outperformed the Germans on at least some metrics. As opposed to the popular conception of a trash fire that failed at defending the flanks causing Paulus' encirclement.

Orange Devil
Oct 1, 2010

Wullie's reign cannae smother the flames o' equality!
I replayed Decisive Campaigns: Barbarossa recently and in light of recent scholarship about the Eastern Front it... doesn't hold up well.

Shame since it's such an innovative war game.


Wonder if we'll ever see an Eastern Front game where the Soviets are counterattacking like mad from 1941 onwards.

Orange Devil
Oct 1, 2010

Wullie's reign cannae smother the flames o' equality!

Fuligin posted:

...how so? I dont recall anything particularly egregious about it

It does the thing where SS units get their own special black counters.

It depicts Soviet high command in a very negative light. Specifically:
- the only way to get competent commanders is to send Kruschev around to fire, force suicide or execute poor commanders. And you'll probably end up doing some of all of that since the political point cost increases for each action every time you take it. Or you can guarantee getting a competent marshall by releasing them from prison.

- the chance for armies to even activate (ie. be actually able to do something) is quite low and can only be increased by reorganizing the command structure of the army through a card play which is quite expensive in political points.

- similarly putting armies in defensive posture, giving them bonuses when defending and the only way to get a real fighting chance against the Germans, costs a prohibitive amount of political points to begin with (15 PP, vs 2 for Offensive or Neutral posture) unless you (sorta playing Stalin) "Admit crisis", which says "You are willing to concede that, yes, we are being invaded, and that, yes, it is serious.". This does make Stalin more paranoid though.

- Stalin being paranoid as a game mechanic where whenever you play useful cards or lose important cities his paranoia shoots up, which inevitably leads to him randomly purging officers, with the more competent ones being more likely I think, which also paralyzes that army for the turn. Note that officers being killed this way is *bad*, but sending Kruschev to get rid of incompetent officers, or competent officers who are perceived as so politically threatening to Stalin that they raise his paranoia is good?

- Soviets can increase political point gain only by holding onto specific cities beyond a specific turn limit, and by playing the "Demand Power" card, which says "Demand that the Politburo cede you ever more supreme executive powers!" (+5 PP per turn, increased paranoia). This is kind of a mandatory card play if I understand the Soviet side correctly.

- Soviet armies are only able to do basic rear end poo poo like blowing up bridges if Zhukov is personally supervising them. So only 1 army in the entire Soviet Union can blow up a single bridge every turn.


And then through the stacking of all the maluses effecting the Soviet army you also spend a very large chunk of the game just being utterly combat ineffective against the Germans, having to use your units as speedbumps on which the Germans hopefully exhaust themselves through too many successive attacks. Even when your front units start in Offensive stance (giving a bonus to attacks) and you manage to mass enough of them together that you think you might be able to counterattack somewhere, you probably can't because:
- German troops generally just have better stats than Soviet infantry
- Soviet armies are unlikely to activate so they have way fewer action points and are unlikely to be able to actually concentrate forces to mount an attack, let alone maneuver to exploit a breakthrough if you can even get one

This means it is difficult to even achieve a bloody nose.

Orange Devil has issued a correction as of 11:04 on Jul 30, 2022

Orange Devil
Oct 1, 2010

Wullie's reign cannae smother the flames o' equality!

So uhhh, did this actually happen or nah?

Orange Devil
Oct 1, 2010

Wullie's reign cannae smother the flames o' equality!
Yeah but that I all knew, the French stuff would've been new info to me.

Orange Devil
Oct 1, 2010

Wullie's reign cannae smother the flames o' equality!

R. Mute posted:

do you think the french could've contained themselves that long to capture an algerian (alive), tie them up, drag them all the way to the testing grounds, tie them up to a pole, put a sack over their head and then blast them with a nuke rather than just letting the national spirit of racism take the wheel and beat that algerian to death the second they saw them?

Maybe?

Orange Devil
Oct 1, 2010

Wullie's reign cannae smother the flames o' equality!
I’m thinking the Sino-Soviet split may have been the most damaging thing.

Orange Devil
Oct 1, 2010

Wullie's reign cannae smother the flames o' equality!
I always wonder who will win the international science fair this year.

Orange Devil
Oct 1, 2010

Wullie's reign cannae smother the flames o' equality!

Pryor on Fire posted:

Yeah there are so many silly British stories in WW2, my favorite is how in September of 44 when Germany was in full retreat Monty managed to convince Eisenhower to launch Market Garden, which ended with nearly two full airborne divisions wiped out for nothing. None of the British radios even worked at Arhhem, they had to use the Dutch home landlines.

The worst part about this is that they postponed the Battle of the Scheldt for this. At the time a number of German divisions were basically trapped on the south bank and could've been wiped out had they kept pushing. Instead divisions were diverted to assist Market Garden. Those very same German division were evacuated into Holland and then put on rest & recovery... near Arnhem. They end up being the guys wrecking the paras.

This all means the port in Antwerp takes longer to come online, as well. Which like, even if Market Garden had succeeded and you force the Rhine crossing, you still don't have a goddamn port to supply your breakthrough because you didn't clear the Scheldt, so you're still Red Ball Expressing your way from Le Havre and goddamn Cherbourg.

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Orange Devil
Oct 1, 2010

Wullie's reign cannae smother the flames o' equality!
Wait until this motherfucker learns about Africa.

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