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Ugly In The Morning
Jul 1, 2010

Dang dicknose don't tuck that money under your eyelids!


Pillbug

Hey all,
I own a drug and alcohol testing business. My clients are all construction companies and public safety agencies. Ask me anything you want to know! I wonít tell you how to cheat tests but I will discuss ways people have tried to beat the tests. Iíll also happily discuss the business side of things because that is JJ, surprising.

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Domus
May 7, 2007

Kidney Buddies


I had to drug test for my last job, and I take Adderall. I knew that I would test positive for amphetamines because of that, so I brought my pills with me. You would have thought I showed up with three heads. No one seemed to know what to about me. Lots of people take Adderall. Was it really that unusual for someone to bring a bottle with all the necessary info on it?

Ugly In The Morning
Jul 1, 2010

Dang dicknose don't tuck that money under your eyelids!


Pillbug

Domus posted:

I had to drug test for my last job, and I take Adderall. I knew that I would test positive for amphetamines because of that, so I brought my pills with me. You would have thought I showed up with three heads. No one seemed to know what to about me. Lots of people take Adderall. Was it really that unusual for someone to bring a bottle with all the necessary info on it?

People do it but it doesnít really make a difference. When the test is done and the results come from the GCMS machine, itís sent to a medical review officer, whoís a doctor that doesnít work for the collector, the lab, or the employer. The thing about the prescription is theyíre not just going ďdoes he take adderall y/nĒ, the levels that are present get reviewed too to see if youíre abusing it. Technically. Never saw someone get bounced for having too much in their system. But until the MRO has made their determination the test isnít considered to be complete.

Canine Blues Arooo
Jan 7, 2008

when you think about it...i'm the first girl you ever spent the night with



Grimey Drawer

Any fun stories? Are there certain methods people try to cheat with that are just not effective at dodging a test? Are there other ones that are surprisingly effective?

Ugly In The Morning
Jul 1, 2010

Dang dicknose don't tuck that money under your eyelids!


Pillbug

Canine Blues Arooo posted:

Any fun stories? Are there certain methods people try to cheat with that are just not effective at dodging a test? Are there other ones that are surprisingly effective?

Someone once handed me throw down pee that had clearly been microwaved, the IR gun in the safety trailer had it at 140 degrees.

One drug test led to three people getting fired- the actual testee who was obviously messed up on something, the person who brought the fake pee, and the person who came along to try to distract me for the handoff.

Honestly cheating a test is incredibly easy. I donít want to get into detail but thereís a lot of go tos that are urban legends that will cause a failure. Bleach powder under the fingernail and stirring it into the sample can destroy the metabolites, yes... but itíll also make the oxidizer strip bright pink and bam, adulterated sample.

I had a guy who blew a .24 at 930 in the morning, and another guy who was certainly higher but was too hosed up to actually test. He was so drunk he couldnít figure out the gate to the job site and then ate poo poo in the parking lot because his pants fell down.

Blue Footed Booby
Oct 4, 2006

got those happy feet




Slippery Tilde

Imagine what a mess your life has to be that you fail to fail a drug test.

Ugly In The Morning
Jul 1, 2010

Dang dicknose don't tuck that money under your eyelids!


Pillbug

Blue Footed Booby posted:

Imagine what a mess your life has to be that you fail to fail a drug test.

About 16-17 percent of construction workers have a substance abuse problem so thereís more of them on that high end of the substance abuse bell curve than you would expect.

Pekinduck
May 10, 2008


I'm guessing a lot of these are guys that came to work obviously shitfaced so the boss sent them off to get tested for the paper trail.

Where are the most common drugs you see, and are certain drugs more common among specific professions?

Ugly In The Morning
Jul 1, 2010

Dang dicknose don't tuck that money under your eyelids!


Pillbug

Pekinduck posted:

I'm guessing a lot of these are guys that came to work obviously shitfaced so the boss sent them off to get tested for the paper trail.

Where are the most common drugs you see, and are certain drugs more common among specific professions?
Thereís a few kinds of tests- reasonable suspicion, where (typically) two managers are like ďI think this dude is messed up, hereís why, test himĒ. Then thereís post-incident, where most places will send people out after something involving property damage or an injury. A lot of larger construction companies will hit 10 percent of the site population on random tests every month. Pre-employment is exactly what it sounds like and is my usual source of business. When I work safety I hit all of Ďem though.

Most common by far is alcohol. Partly availability, partly addiction potential, partly people not realizing how long it stays in your system. Thatís followed by opiates, then amphetamines, then weed. I donít have data to really back it up since itís not like I know when someone successfully cheats, but I think that most people who smoke weed regularly are functional enough that they know to have a way to cheat the test ready to go at a momentís notice, and Iím fine with that. Burning one outside of work doesnít make you a hazard the way the other stuff does.

Almost all of my tests are construction and emergency services, so it selects for a population with access to prescription opiates (a medic helping himself to the narc box is why one of my clients started testing) and long shifts (the construction people will often do 6 12ís) leading to people taking amphetamines to stay awake. I have seen people bounced on non-therapeutic levels of prescription opiates, though as I mentioned before, never on amphetamines.

Verviticus
Mar 13, 2006

Security? Please escort the fan in section 106, row 16, seat 1 out of the building right now and bar him from coming here again!




Ugly In The Morning posted:

i wonít tell you how to cheat tests

why not

Fritz the Horse
Dec 26, 2019

... of course!

Are you familiar enough with the chemistry to talk GC method? I've done quite a bit of method development for GC. I'd guess you do a simple liquid-liquid extraction (can't shoot urine directly onto a GC column heh)? Is there much of a temperature ramp? In terms of sample throughput you might be able to get away without much of a temperature program because the metabolites are wildly different molecules, you probably don't need a long/slow oven ramp to separate them and that would use a lot of energy and time.

Pryor on Fire
May 14, 2013


Blue Footed Booby posted:

Imagine what a mess your life has to be that you fail to fail a drug test.

I worked construction for awhile, it was unsettling how every week or so you heard about or saw someone getting a serious injury. There is a bizarre relationship with drugs on job sites, use was pretty widespread even among people doing really dangerous work. At the same time if you got hurt and blew hot your employer was off the hook for any liability or insurance claims, so it was usually tolerated as a way to keep costs down.

Basically, everyone loses. Except the rich people. Costs were cut by another 1%, sounds like we just earned ourselves some more stock buybacks!

Pryor on Fire fucked around with this message at 12:44 on Feb 14, 2021

The Lone Badger
Sep 24, 2007



Has easy availability of antibody-based test kits changed the industry much in the time you've been working?

Do the peoplr ordering the tests run mostly want to know "was this person currently affected by drugs?" or "does this person consume drugs at all?" ?

The Lone Badger fucked around with this message at 06:14 on Feb 19, 2021

Ugly In The Morning
Jul 1, 2010

Dang dicknose don't tuck that money under your eyelids!


Pillbug

The Lone Badger posted:

Has easy availability of antibody-based test kits changed the industry much in the time you've been working?

Do the peoplr ordering the tests run mostly want to know "was this person currently affected by drugs?" or "does this person consume drugs at all?" ?

Iíve been doing it for three years, so the immunoassay kits have been standard for the whole time Iíve been doing it.

That varies massively with whoís ordering the tests. Iíve noticed the ambulance agencies care more about people doing drugs at all (since the narc safe is right there and thereís been incidents of people jonesing and treating themselves). Construction usually wants to know if theyíre actively under the influence in a reasonable suspicion, obviously, post incident is a bit ďare they effected right nowĒ and a bit ďworkerís comp dodgeĒ and random and pre-employment testing is about mitigating the risk that they will be hosed up at work and cause an incident/requirement for federal contracts. The thing is, itís not all a workers comp issue, thereís an incentive to catch them early to prevent people from being messed up and causing an incident- even if they were under the influence and youíre not covering a lot of the workerís comp, it still effects safety rates which can effect being able to get contracts down the line. And can give your safety department people ulcers.

Hyrax Attack!
Jan 13, 2009

We demand to be taken seriously


Was involved at company where a fish processing plant in Alaska was audited, looking at payroll issues. They passed that but the auditor noted the 140 hour work weeks likely involved amphetamines. Which we werenít looking for, but I was curious if that is extremely common in meat plants?

Ugly In The Morning
Jul 1, 2010

Dang dicknose don't tuck that money under your eyelids!


Pillbug

Hyrax Attack! posted:

Was involved at company where a fish processing plant in Alaska was audited, looking at payroll issues. They passed that but the auditor noted the 140 hour work weeks likely involved amphetamines. Which we werenít looking for, but I was curious if that is extremely common in meat plants?

Canít speak to meat plants but a ton of my amphetamine positives have been on the people working 7x12s.

Hyrax Attack!
Jan 13, 2009

We demand to be taken seriously


Are there industries where abstaining from drug use is unusual? I heard (second hand) that in WA state after pot was legalized a major retailer had issues where before legalization being trained on a forklift was a good career move. But the company followed federal laws meaning no pot ever, so if a forklift operator was involved in even a minor incident and had used several days before, instant termination.

This was leading to fewer people wanting to be trained as forklift operators to avoid regular drug tests, and booming construction meant if someone didnít use pot but could operate power equipment, theyíd likely switch to construction as they could pass the screening.

Pryor on Fire
May 14, 2013


You get drug tested at every major financial company, the idea being we need sober humans to manage other people's money. Which is just the funniest loving thing in light of the history of finance over the past 20 years.

Ugly In The Morning
Jul 1, 2010

Dang dicknose don't tuck that money under your eyelids!


Pillbug

Hyrax Attack! posted:

Are there industries where abstaining from drug use is unusual? I heard (second hand) that in WA state after pot was legalized a major retailer had issues where before legalization being trained on a forklift was a good career move. But the company followed federal laws meaning no pot ever, so if a forklift operator was involved in even a minor incident and had used several days before, instant termination.

This was leading to fewer people wanting to be trained as forklift operators to avoid regular drug tests, and booming construction meant if someone didnít use pot but could operate power equipment, theyíd likely switch to construction as they could pass the screening.

Most of my construction ones are either GCís with federal contracts or subs on federal contract sites so I wouldnít run into people that were looking to dodge weed tests. I canít imagine itís that big, though- pretty much any employer is going to do a post-incident test and a lot of them do five panels even in legal states- you can get protection with a medical card, sometimes, but thatís dicey. Typically what I know of is that people know they could be tested so they have fake piss in a way they can get it ready to go quick-like. Saliva tests are rare, though probably becoming more common.

Saliva test isnít the technical term but ďoral fluidĒ is so much loving grosser I canít bring myself to use it.

ParisFascistWeek
Jan 26, 2021


I don't reckon you live in a state where weed is legalized, considering you test people for it as you said previously. I wonder then if you have any knowledge on the relationship between employees consuming weed away from work and if that can threaten their job in a place like colorado, california, oregon, washington etc. I am not in construction but I'm in school for the healthcare field and there is a shocking lack of information on the internet about this. Wondered if you had any insight. Thanks

Ugly In The Morning
Jul 1, 2010

Dang dicknose don't tuck that money under your eyelids!


Pillbug

ParisFascistWeek posted:

I don't reckon you live in a state where weed is legalized, considering you test people for it as you said previously. I wonder then if you have any knowledge on the relationship between employees consuming weed away from work and if that can threaten their job in a place like colorado, california, oregon, washington etc. I am not in construction but I'm in school for the healthcare field and there is a shocking lack of information on the internet about this. Wondered if you had any insight. Thanks

I spend about half my time in MA where it is legal- the issue with it being on the state level is that recreational use is still something that can get you fired. Amazon did lose a case firing someone who had a medical card, though, and I feel like that is the entry to state level recreational use being used for MROs to make the weed test negative. I really hope it does.

Ugly In The Morning
Jul 1, 2010

Dang dicknose don't tuck that money under your eyelids!


Pillbug

Fritz the Horse posted:

Are you familiar enough with the chemistry to talk GC method? I've done quite a bit of method development for GC. I'd guess you do a simple liquid-liquid extraction (can't shoot urine directly onto a GC column heh)? Is there much of a temperature ramp? In terms of sample throughput you might be able to get away without much of a temperature program because the metabolites are wildly different molecules, you probably don't need a long/slow oven ramp to separate them and that would use a lot of energy and time.

I have a masters in biochemistry but that doesnít really enter into the part of drug testing I do- anything that hits a GCMS has already been shipped, retested, and then in the queue for the column.

The fun part is how 25 percent of the population will piss hot for PCP on the immunoassay test if they take benedryl.

Oh. That reminds me- I once had to retest a guy in the summer because the tube I sent to Alere boiled and popped in the bag while FedEx was shipping it.

Ugly In The Morning fucked around with this message at 08:32 on Feb 21, 2021

Phyzzle
Jan 26, 2008


Do you or others at your company get randomly tested?

Ugly In The Morning
Jul 1, 2010

Dang dicknose don't tuck that money under your eyelids!


Pillbug

Phyzzle posted:

Do you or others at your company get randomly tested?

When I was working with Bechtel I got hit with randoms three months in a row.

Ugly In The Morning
Jul 1, 2010

Dang dicknose don't tuck that money under your eyelids!


Pillbug

I find the idea of the people that work for me being tested for things I wouldnít test for repugnant.

ParisFascistWeek
Jan 26, 2021


Ugly In The Morning posted:

I find the idea of the people that work for me being tested for things I wouldnít test for repugnant.

Biden made a comment about decriminalizing all small amounts of drugs for personal use, I guess. It's just a comment and not real action but I think it's the first step to making addiction recovery more approachable and improvements to the prison system. We'll see if anything happens and what that will mean for businesses where sobriety is important.

BiggerBoat
Sep 26, 2007

I'm sorry, everyone.

What can you tell me about me testing negative for medication I take (Norco) even though I use it as prescribed? I occasionally get drug screened (I guess) so that the doctor knows I'm actually eating it and not selling it but on a couple of occasions they've said the levels were low or not present at all, which is loving impossible.

Ugly In The Morning
Jul 1, 2010

Dang dicknose don't tuck that money under your eyelids!


Pillbug

BiggerBoat posted:

What can you tell me about me testing negative for medication I take (Norco) even though I use it as prescribed? I occasionally get drug screened (I guess) so that the doctor knows I'm actually eating it and not selling it but on a couple of occasions they've said the levels were low or not present at all, which is loving impossible.

Do you know if it a GCMS negative or did they just do the immunoassay and not send it out after a negative test there? If it was a GCMS and you have the results handy Iíll PM you my email and I can take a look. Iím guessing itís likely a metabolism thing, some people clear opioid metabolites crazy fast, especially if itís a lower dose or youíre a smaller person.

BiggerBoat
Sep 26, 2007

I'm sorry, everyone.

Ugly In The Morning posted:

Do you know if it a GCMS negative or did they just do the immunoassay and not send it out after a negative test there? If it was a GCMS and you have the results handy Iíll PM you my email and I can take a look. Iím guessing itís likely a metabolism thing, some people clear opioid metabolites crazy fast, especially if itís a lower dose or youíre a smaller person.

I don't know about specifics or have the results. It was Labcorp if that helps. If it happens again, I'll request them but I think they'll cut me off if it does. It doesn't happen every time and there's no consistency to it.

I have always had an insane metabolism and can remain quite thin despite eating anything and everything I want to so yeah. I don't know if 10 - 20 mg a day is high or low. Such a weird place to find myself though, trying to prove that I am, in fact, taking drugs. Typically, it's been the other way around.

Thing is I showed them my pills and asked the obvious question: If I KNOW I'm taking a drug test and can schedule it at my convenience, don't you think I'd be smart enough to eat a few of these before I took it?

I don't know what the gently caress else to do but I don't think they believe me and am sure they've heard it all. Only thing I can think of is to eat MORE before a test but gently caress that. I don't really like taking them as it is.

Ugly In The Morning
Jul 1, 2010

Dang dicknose don't tuck that money under your eyelids!


Pillbug

Thatís a relatively small dose so I can see that and a weird metabolism producing a negative.

shirunei
Sep 7, 2018

I tried to run away. To take the easy way out. I'll live through the suffering. When I die, I want to feel like I did my best.

BiggerBoat posted:

What can you tell me about me testing negative for medication I take (Norco) even though I use it as prescribed? I occasionally get drug screened (I guess) so that the doctor knows I'm actually eating it and not selling it but on a couple of occasions they've said the levels were low or not present at all, which is loving impossible.

Not trying to be an rear end in a top hat but this has been answered by medical professional goons several times in regards to your issues. You seem to be unwilling to follow their advice so I am perplexed that you are still continually asking the same questions when you have ZERO follow though by yourself. Like we aren't your personal doctor at your beck and call, if you don't wish to follow some basic instructions then constantly asking the same questions would indicate insanity to me.

Ugly In The Morning
Jul 1, 2010

Dang dicknose don't tuck that money under your eyelids!


Pillbug

ParisFascistWeek posted:

Biden made a comment about decriminalizing all small amounts of drugs for personal use, I guess. It's just a comment and not real action but I think it's the first step to making addiction recovery more approachable and improvements to the prison system. We'll see if anything happens and what that will mean for businesses where sobriety is important.

So as far as this goes, thereís some interesting stuff going on legally there. NYC has made it illegal to drug test for weed, except there are exceptions carved out in that- particularly for safety sensitive jobs like construction or anything involving heavy machinery.

I feel whatís most likely is that as things are legalized and decriminalized and the umbrella of protections for use gets expanded, thereís going to be a push for more tests that can detect current impairment instead of past use. For example, booze is legal but the DOT still tests for it since thereís an easy and noninvasive way to do so. Thatíll probably be in saliva testing, since piss takes a while for metabolites to actually show up, blood is too invasive, and hair is obviously even slower than piss.

BiggerBoat
Sep 26, 2007

I'm sorry, everyone.

shirunei posted:

Not trying to be an rear end in a top hat but this has been answered by medical professional goons several times in regards to your issues. You seem to be unwilling to follow their advice so I am perplexed that you are still continually asking the same questions when you have ZERO follow though by yourself. Like we aren't your personal doctor at your beck and call, if you don't wish to follow some basic instructions then constantly asking the same questions would indicate insanity to me.

WTF are you talking about? I posted about this in the TCC drug testing thread and got medical feedback from one person (?). Good on you for assuming I'm not being proactive for having the same weird issue though. How do you know wtf I've done?

This other guy posted a thread in a different forum so I figured I'd ask him and his PM was quite helpful, unlike this insulting post you made. Not sure what your loving problem is about me asking about drug testing issues in the two drug testing threads that I'm aware of and nothing has helped but sorry to rub you wrong . Maybe it's the same person and I didn't realize it.

drat, man. Hopefully I didn't post any questions about movies, science, politics or games across more than one thread or anything that might also detract from your Something Awful forums experience. If my regular doctor was any help (and not specific my problem), maybe I'd ask him instead of the guy that posted an ASK/TELL thread inviting drug test questions.

Thank you, Ugly in the Morning for your kindness and help.

BiggerBoat
Sep 26, 2007

I'm sorry, everyone.

Ugly In The Morning posted:

I spend about half my time in MA where it is legal- the issue with it being on the state level is that recreational use is still something that can get you fired. Amazon did lose a case firing someone who had a medical card, though, and I feel like that is the entry to state level recreational use being used for MROs to make the weed test negative. I really hope it does.

And sorry for the double post but since this is unrelated and came up, I'm very curious about this myself.

I've been wanting to get a marijuana medical card here in FL and not take what I've been taking but I've heard different things about what employers can and cannot do if you test positive for THC even WITH a prescription. Knowing Florida as a Right to Work State, I imagine it's up to the company.

Ugly In The Morning
Jul 1, 2010

Dang dicknose don't tuck that money under your eyelids!


Pillbug

My MRO has specific language that comes up when a medical card is responsible for a negative test since not all employers accept that and itís federally illegal so it doesnít have the same protections as other medication. I donít have any paperwork with that handy though.

Perscription opiates are another one where thereís specific language, since it can effect safety. I do have paperwork for that handy!



I took the personal information off there so you can see what the paperwork from an MRO looks like.

A Tasteful Nude
Jun 3, 2013

A cool anime hagrid pic (imagine nude pls)

Hemp-derived CBD products (teas, oils, whatever) are showing up everywhere, these days. My understanding is that 50-state legal hemp can nonetheless contain minuscule amounts of THC or other cannabinoids.

Ever have an issue detecting these as a THC positive? In the alternative, anyone's test ever come back positive for THC, only to have them explain that they drink like 400 cups of hemp tea, every day?

Ugly In The Morning
Jul 1, 2010

Dang dicknose don't tuck that money under your eyelids!


Pillbug

A Tasteful Nude posted:

Hemp-derived CBD products (teas, oils, whatever) are showing up everywhere, these days. My understanding is that 50-state legal hemp can nonetheless contain minuscule amounts of THC or other cannabinoids.

Ever have an issue detecting these as a THC positive? In the alternative, anyone's test ever come back positive for THC, only to have them explain that they drink like 400 cups of hemp tea, every day?

I had one guy piss hot and claim it was off of the CBD, and I believed him. The levels were just at the cutoff level. It was the one guy I ever had where the GC let me retest him instead of just firing him.

Ugly In The Morning
Jul 1, 2010

Dang dicknose don't tuck that money under your eyelids!


Pillbug

I havenít really touched on the business side of things yet but I kind of want to since you guys will be shocked.

The whole thing for my business is that I do all my tests on site. Itís great for construction hires since they rarely know whoís starting in advance, the union just sends a bunch of guys. This works great for me for two reasons, no overhead and I get to charge more. A typical round of hiring for the job sites I work at is 15-40 people so it takes up a chunk of the afternoon.

The costs to me of providing a test are dirt cheap. A 5 panel lab test is 13.50. The breathalyzer tube is something like 40 cents, the breathalyzer itself was 3.5k but thatís a one time thing. The paperwork for the breathalyzer is like a dollar. If a test goes to the MRO because something was in there, I pay five bucks. I would say thatís maybe 10 percent of tests, but even that is high.

How much do you think I charge? Because I bet youíre coming in low.

I charge 100 bucks for both tests. The company I used to work for charged even more than that for onsite stuff, in the neighborhood of 150.

Because the margins are so good I can overpay the hell out of the people that work for me. That other company paid me 12.50 an hour to do it. I pay my guys twenty bucks per test and still make a tidy profit.

PT6A
Jan 5, 2006

ASK ME WHY THE HYUNDAI KONA IS THE GREATEST CAR ON GOD'S EARTH, I HAVE STRONG OPINIONS ON THIS SUBJECT


When you said this:

Ugly In The Morning posted:

Most common by far is alcohol. Partly availability, partly addiction potential, partly people not realizing how long it stays in your system.

I thought you were doing some sort of testing for long-lasting metabolites of alcohol, to indicate addictive use patterns. But this:


Ugly In The Morning posted:

The breathalyzer tube is something like 40 cents, the breathalyzer itself was 3.5k but that’s a one time thing. The paperwork for the breathalyzer is like a dollar.

Makes it sounds like you're just doing a standard breathalyzer. Are people really blowing intoxicated due to just having a few too many the previous night? It takes a lot to do that, I'd assume the full-blown alcoholic taking an eye-opener would be more common.

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Ugly In The Morning
Jul 1, 2010

Dang dicknose don't tuck that money under your eyelids!


Pillbug

PT6A posted:

When you said this:


I thought you were doing some sort of testing for long-lasting metabolites of alcohol, to indicate addictive use patterns. But this:


Makes it sounds like you're just doing a standard breathalyzer. Are people really blowing intoxicated due to just having a few too many the previous night? It takes a lot to do that, I'd assume the full-blown alcoholic taking an eye-opener would be more common.

Employment tests are basically always for active impairment. You see metabolites (AKA the 80-hour test) in parole/probation/DCFS tests which are something I donít really deal in.

After a while you get to notice the difference between the ďfew too manyĒ and the ďdrank before they came inísĒ. Construction also tees heavy drinkers up for the few too many issue with the hours- if youíre working 7-7, and then get blasted after work, you easily, easily can come in at a .04 the next day. The cutoff is .02, so itís easier to come in over that from overdoing it than if it was .08. .040-.050 was my most common positive reading by far in 2019 and I think that held up for 2020 but I havenít crunched those numbers yet.

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