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bushisms.txt
May 26, 2004

Scroll, then. There are other posts than these.




Peak whedon

V

Peak Snyder

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AFoolAndHisMoney
Aug 13, 2013


If catchphrases were so important why didn’t they bully Jason Momoa into saying “Outrageous!”?

Jon Berg’s bosses’ kids probably more likely watched Brave and the Bold over a cartoon 10 years older and it has about as much bearing in defining Aquaman’s character as Booyah is for Cyborg.

Hodgepodge
Jan 29, 2006


Google Butt posted:

is this movie good or bad, thanks

if you're down for four hours and as many ending as a kojima game, this movie is here for you

2house2fly
Nov 14, 2012

You did a super job wrapping things up! And I'm not just saying that because I have to!

Bogus Adventure posted:

Also, I'm sure some people felt that Barry needed a whole soliloquy on the strangeness of brunch, or Superman delivering this little speech where Joss is looking directly into the camera and winking at the audience while repeating, "Get it? Get it? GET IT? GET IT???"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IAGz2bDlwqA#t=190s

Eeeeeeesssshhhhhhh

hiddenriverninja
May 10, 2013

life is locomotion
keep moving
trust that you'll find your way


It is kind of amazing that the Avengers comic book panel slow mo gif uses the absolute least interesting/inspired angle.

Also what is up with Hawkeye's pose?

teagone
Jun 10, 2003

That was pretty intense, huh?

Neurolimal posted:

Kind of a douche reply to what seems like the poster taking "post your own take relevant to the movie & not just film memes" to heart and giving his own [very flawed] attempt

Not kind of, it absolutely was. My intent was to be an rear end in a top hat... for which I would like to now apologize to the thread and khwarezm for my poo poo posting. Objectivist Snyder chat breaks my brain

That said, I did earn a really good punishment reason on my rap sheet that I would like to keep on top forever, and so I will now take my leave from cape poo poo discourse forever. Farewell.

Bogus Adventure
Jan 11, 2017

More like "Bulges Adventure"


That scene owns so hard, and it makes sense in the context of the film. The only thing that would make it better is if they could somehow get Supes involved.

AFoolAndHisMoney
Aug 13, 2013


If Kryptonians are mass produced through artificial reproduction in Man of Steel why would it matter what ethnicity Jor El's father is?

They aren't related by blood they're all mass produced - Kal El is the first natural birth in centuries.

Even ignoring the Zod stuff the argument doesn't hold.

ruddiger
Jun 3, 2004




Horizon Burning
Oct 23, 2019



YOLOsubmarine posted:

I know objectivism is incoherent but that doesn’t mean everything is objectivism, drat. Find another word.

*stands up*

i'm objectivism

Horizon Burning
Oct 23, 2019



is it just my sense of perspective or is thor really tiny in that gif

Snowman_McK
Jan 31, 2010
ASK ME ABOUT MY SELF-PUBLISHED WARHAMMER FANFICTION AND MY KNIFE COLLECTION


AFoolAndHisMoney posted:

If Kryptonians are mass produced through artificial reproduction in Man of Steel why would it matter what ethnicity Jor El's father is?

They aren't related by blood they're all mass produced - Kal El is the first natural birth in centuries.

Even ignoring the Zod stuff the argument doesn't hold.

Pretty sure the answer is racism.

Mormon Star Wars
Aug 13, 2005
It's a minotaur race...



Timeless Appeal posted:

I think both MoS and BvS do have clear moments of objectivist world view. In Pa Kent questioning if Clark should have potentially let his classmates die although that comes with the caveat that Pa is pretty ashamed of the suggestion. Ma Kent's claim that Clark does not owe the world anything is the more direct example. What makes these moments objectivist is that they question an inherent sense of duty to others.

Does Superman accept those objectivists viewpoints and gently caress off to Mars leaving the humans to die, or does he reject those viewpoints and decide that his powers give him a responsibility to help people? Seems like that would be a very important piece of information that would make "are these movies about how helping people is morally wrong" an easy question to answer!

Edit: I think a lot of people don't realize how heavy his background in Christian Science is (he mentioned this in some interviews about justice league - he doesn't view himself as christ-like or a "Christian in hollywood" but he is in love with thematic christian science). A lot of these themes that don't make sense if you are looking at objectivism do make sense if you are looking at them as sacred themes. Ma and Pa Kent are setting him up to ask if the cup can be passed from him, and, of course, it could - he has the power to stop it, but he doesn't: him drinking from it anyways is what makes him Superman.

It reminds me of the article from AV club where the author was mystified at why an objectivists like Snyder would risk his career to support Ray Fisher when it goes against his own self interest. It's what Jesus would do.

Mormon Star Wars fucked around with this message at 08:46 on Apr 8, 2021

garycoleisgod
Sep 27, 2004
Boo

I wish there was as much talk about young Clark reading The Republic as there is about stupid objectivist poo poo.

Guess it's not as sexy.

I love that the films are about Clark trying to figure out the best thing he can do and all the influences that pull and push at him.

ungulateman
Apr 18, 2012
Hello I am a person doing a thing via buttons. It's amazing what electronic singnals traveling through space can accomplish.

Makes ya think.

Purple m&ms are the best.

garycoleisgod posted:

I wish there was as much talk about young Clark reading The Republic as there is about stupid objectivist poo poo.

Guess it's not as sexy.

I love that the films are about Clark trying to figure out the best thing he can do and all the influences that pull and push at him.

Isn't the 'joke' there that Krypton is basically The Republic, with the caste system and philosopher-kings?

multijoe
Oct 15, 2007

NYO~HO


Mormon Star Wars posted:

Does Superman accept those objectivists viewpoints and gently caress off to Mars leaving the humans to die, or does he reject those viewpoints that his powers give him a responsibility to help people? Seems like that would be avery important piece of information that would make "are these movies about how helping people is morally wrong" an easy question to answer!

Pa Kent isn't esposing objectivism anyway, he's just aware that visibly saving people will 'out' Clarke at a formative stage in his life, isolate him from the rest of humanity and make an exceptionally valuable asset for the government to acquire. He's trying to let him have a normal childhood so he can become a well adjusted person and use his powers judiciously, and not develop Homelander Brain

Mormon Star Wars
Aug 13, 2005
It's a minotaur race...



multijoe posted:

Pa Kent isn't esposing objectivism anyway, he's just aware that visibly saving people will 'out' Clarke at a formative stage in his life, isolate him from the rest of humanity and make an exceptionally valuable asset for the government to acquire. He's trying to let him have a normal childhood so he can become a well adjusted person and use his powers judiciously and not develop Homelander Brain

I'm trying to be as generous as possible, but yeah. To be objectivists those viewpoints would need to reject helping people as a moral goal, not qualify it. It's about whether Superman should do something supererogatory At a specific stage, not whether he should help people at all.

garycoleisgod
Sep 27, 2004
Boo

ungulateman posted:

Isn't the 'joke' there that Krypton is basically The Republic, with the caste system and philosopher-kings?

Yes, thats part of it, as well things like the attempts to define justice, which obviously have meaning for Superman.

My view of The Republic is that it's not about actually creating the perfect city or state or man, but using the Socratic method to get you thinking about what those things actually are. I get a real kick out of that being the book Clark reads.

josh04
Oct 19, 2008

I'll see you in the dome





AccountSupervisor posted:

Its become an increasingly narrow view to constantly and incesently focus on the question and perspective of Snyders Superman through Objectivism and not the litany of other moral philosophies that predate it.

This is the crux of the matter and it's made worse by how Rand, being a wild egotist, refused to learn or cite the philosophies she was sourcing from and disagreeing with. "Is this properly objectivist?" is a horrible question to try and pursue for anyone who isn't an objectivist.

For example this:

Timeless Appeal posted:

I think I ultimately agree with this. I think for me, if I were the hypothetical writer of a Superman movie, I wouldn't include a line like that because I do actually believe we have.a duty to one another and while we can choose to abandon that duty, we shouldn't.
Is a request for Kantian ethics, and while Rand rejected Kant, she was far from the only provider of 20th (or 19th) century philosophy who did so.

Timeless Appeal
May 28, 2006


ungulateman posted:

Isn't the 'joke' there that Krypton is basically The Republic, with the caste system and philosopher-kings?
I think there's something to be said about the Republic connecting to the Clark's extrasensory powers, someone who can literally see further than what is right in front of him.

SuperMechagodzilla
Jun 9, 2007

NEWT REBORN


Yo check this out:

If Clark listened to his dad and hid his alien powers to avoid scaring people, that would be cowing to the idiot masses.

However, if Clark continues to help people, then he is putting himself at risk purely for the benefit of others.

And that’s not even a strict binary choice. Youtubers evidently never consider the third possibility: that Clark could save only the kids on the bus who are nice to him. This doesn’t even get brought up as an option, because it’s too stupid - even though that’s a key aspect of objectivism.

ALFbrot
Apr 17, 2002


i can't believe we missed this, it was right in front of us the whole time

Only registered members can see post attachments!

roffels
Jul 27, 2004

Yo Taxi!

ZS JL sequence of events:

Flash time travels and gives Victor the charge to interface and separate the Motherbox.

Victor enters and exits the Motherbox realm, Superman helps separate the motherboxes.

Flash is nowhere to be seen.

Flash is missing up until after Darkseid steps on Steppenwolf's head, when he zips into frame. Where was Flash all that time? Cut sequence? Editing error?

Guy A. Person
May 23, 2003



roffels posted:

ZS JL sequence of events:

Flash time travels and gives Victor the charge to interface and separate the Motherbox.

Victor enters and exits the Motherbox realm, Superman helps separate the motherboxes.

Flash is nowhere to be seen.

Flash is missing up until after Darkseid steps on Steppenwolf's head, when he zips into frame. Where was Flash all that time? Cut sequence? Editing error?

If it's anything like the previous instance he did this, his momentum might have ping-ponged him off somewhere where he got temporarily knocked silly before coming to his senses and dashing back.

EDIT: and realistically between the separation of the mother boxes and then the separation of Steppenwolf from his head, there's not much Flash would have done except stand around, so it's probably worth it for him to be off screen for a moment for that sick shot where he zaps back into frame

ALFbrot
Apr 17, 2002


roffels posted:

ZS JL sequence of events:

Flash time travels and gives Victor the charge to interface and separate the Motherbox.

Victor enters and exits the Motherbox realm, Superman helps separate the motherboxes.

Flash is nowhere to be seen.

Flash is missing up until after Darkseid steps on Steppenwolf's head, when he zips into frame. Where was Flash all that time? Cut sequence? Editing error?

When he ran fast and touched the box, his momentum tossed him across the pond like a goofus. This time he broke the speed of light so I imagine he was off in the Ukraine for a minute before collecting himself and heading back

roffels
Jul 27, 2004

Yo Taxi!

Guy A. Person posted:

If it's anything like the previous instance he did this, his momentum might have ping-ponged him off somewhere where he got temporarily knocked silly before coming to his senses and dashing back.


ALFbrot posted:

When he ran fast and touched the box, his momentum tossed him across the pond like a goofus. This time he broke the speed of light so I imagine he was off in the Ukraine for a minute before collecting himself and heading back

That makes sense. Thanks!

Nroo
Dec 31, 2007



My interpretation is he disappeared for a bit due to the amount of time spent in an alternate timeline, being able to reappear once enough time passed that everyone else had caught up.

RBA Starblade
Apr 27, 2008

Going Home.



Games Idiot Court Jester


ALFbrot posted:

When he ran fast and touched the box, his momentum tossed him across the pond like a goofus. This time he broke the speed of light so I imagine he was off in the Ukraine for a minute before collecting himself and heading back

He was visiting a nice Russian family

Bogus Adventure
Jan 11, 2017

More like "Bulges Adventure"

ALFbrot posted:

i can't believe we missed this, it was right in front of us the whole time



now do one with dickbutt

ALFbrot
Apr 17, 2002


Bogus Adventure posted:

now do one with dickbutt

Only registered members can see post attachments!

KVeezy3
Aug 18, 2005

Airport Music for Black Folk


Timeless Appeal posted:

I think I ultimately agree with this. I think for me, if I were the hypothetical writer of a Superman movie, I wouldn't include a line like that because I do actually believe we have.a duty to one another and while we can choose to abandon that duty, we shouldn't. Snyder is clearly not a Libertarian jerk, but he is also a dude who wanted to make a movie about The Fountainhead. So, there is going to be an influence there. Saying "there's nothing to see here" actually isn't giving his films credit.
...

Your scriptwriting fix is to repress the controversial idea that Clark's mom believes he's a person first, and not just some abstract manifestation of truth and justice. It's scenes like this (Clark letting his father to die to protect him, questioning the possibility of the Superman concept, killing Zod, etc.) that are often deployed against these films as not understanding the essence of comic book superheroes, and reveal Snyder’s objectivist principles corrupting our intrepid heroes. But it's precisely their traumatic quality that is the real source of consternation.

This stuff is already part of all superhero stories, just cordoned off to its netherworld. Take the popular belief that Batman doesn’t kill, which is taken as gospel because some incarnations insist they don’t. When Snyder depicts Batman using lethal violence, and includes the obvious consequences of what that means, certain people are completely nonplussed.

What does it say about the superhero genre at large if asking basic ethical questions collapses their entire universe?

KVeezy3 fucked around with this message at 16:03 on Apr 8, 2021

Bogus Adventure
Jan 11, 2017

More like "Bulges Adventure"


Timeless Appeal
May 28, 2006


KVeezy3 posted:

Your scriptwriting fix
It's not a screenwriting fix. I'm suggesting that different people have different mental models and experiences that influence their work. My overall point is that Snyder's DC work is not objectivist, but he clearly has some appreciation for Rand so you can unpack some influence with a grand total of one line that I find worth discussing and one line that is kinda sorta that, but also has a lot more going on in it.

As I said before, I like that I think Snyder is challenging himself with some of the questions he raises.

Timeless Appeal fucked around with this message at 19:45 on Apr 8, 2021

KVeezy3
Aug 18, 2005

Airport Music for Black Folk


Timeless Appeal posted:

It's not a screenwriting fix. I'm suggesting that different people have different mental models and experiences that influence their work. My overall point is that Snyder's DC work is not objectivist, but he clearly has some appreciation for Rand so you can unpack some influence with a grand total of one line that I find discussing and one line that is kinda sorta that, but also has a lot more going on in it.

As I said before, I like that I think Snyder is challenging himself with some of the questions he raises.

Rand didn't invent the idea of individualism. How does that line convey Rand's specific notion of individuality, or at least moreso than someone like Hobbes?

josh04
Oct 19, 2008

I'll see you in the dome





Worth saying it's not just pendantry; Rand really isn't influential or enduring in her philosophy, so the bits of it that would be telling are quite specific. A=A, rejection of altruism, a bristling hostility towards the state and religion, these are what you'd expect to see if someone was dabbling in objectivism as opposed to a more loose individualism.

Burkion
May 10, 2012

Changeman! And Not A Moment Too Soon!


roffels posted:

ZS JL sequence of events:

Flash time travels and gives Victor the charge to interface and separate the Motherbox.

Victor enters and exits the Motherbox realm, Superman helps separate the motherboxes.

Flash is nowhere to be seen.

Flash is missing up until after Darkseid steps on Steppenwolf's head, when he zips into frame. Where was Flash all that time? Cut sequence? Editing error?

I have a theory on how Flash's time travel works.

Namely, Flash cannot remain in the period of time he travels to. He snaps back to his relative present, like a rubber band.

This isn't super noticeable when he's traveling like, barely a fraction of a second back

But when he goes back a little bit more, he'll just straight vanish after he's done doing his thing because he's back where he started and people have to catch up

Guy A. Person
May 23, 2003



Burkion posted:

I have a theory on how Flash's time travel works.

Namely, Flash cannot remain in the period of time he travels to. He snaps back to his relative present, like a rubber band.

This isn't super noticeable when he's traveling like, barely a fraction of a second back

But when he goes back a little bit more, he'll just straight vanish after he's done doing his thing because he's back where he started and people have to catch up

This is actually an insanely cool theory and I like it, he does appear in roughly the same spot too, and with that lightning preceding him

SuperMechagodzilla
Jun 9, 2007

NEWT REBORN


josh04 posted:

Worth saying it's not just pendantry; Rand really isn't influential or enduring in her philosophy, so the bits of it that would be telling are quite specific. A=A, rejection of altruism, a bristling hostility towards the state and religion, these are what you'd expect to see if someone was dabbling in objectivism as opposed to a more loose individualism.

Right: if we reduce objectivism to just individualism, then what do you call a group of objectivists (besides the obvious setup for a punchline)?

When you’re absolutely certain that something is evil, but don’t know why - like, maybe it has some evil essence - then you start arguing that exercise is libertarian, it’s fascist to imply children are too young to conduct search and rescue operations, etc. It’s not good.

If you look for actual examples of objectiv-ish characters, you have Arthur Aquaman at the start of ZSJL saying “the strong man is strongest alone”, and only helping certain people in exchange for respect, alcohol, and freaky Björk sex with the groupies.

He’s at the start of his arc, clearly not fully happy with this style of heroism, and it’s really underlined with him drinking whiskey by himself while Snyder plays a song about how Christ is inside all of us (that also serves as a reference to the “if seek his monument, look around you” graffiti). What could it mean???

Bongo Bill
Jan 17, 2012




This is very good.

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A Buttery Pastry
Sep 4, 2011

Delicious and Informative!


Jimbot posted:

Contrasting that is Superman, who is an anarchist. He is a humanitarian without borders. He is humanity's monument. He helps any or all who need it.
Yeah, I have a hard time seeing how you can come to any other conclusion that he's a non-revolutionary anarchist. The man is entirely free to do whatever, and he chooses to help people, never surrenders his ethics to a state, and never attempts to enforce his ethics on others.

Which is kind of a fitting liberal superhero. He's a near mythologically ethical individual, unburdened by human flaws, so he's allowed to live free of the constraints of the state that govern others. He still puts on a performance of respect, and never takes his rebellion against the state beyond his own person though, with his revolutionary potential being limited to being inspirational. When faced with a monstrous construct of control, he merely says "Not for me" instead of "Not for anyone". Whether the takeaway is supposed to be that this is the ideal Superman is another question entirely, but the movies seem pretty sympathetic to Superman's eventual ethics.

Of course that is a Superman early in his career. The only way to stay true to his ethics is to grow more and more radical, directly undermining the operations of capitalism because it's built on a bedrock of oppression, eventually necessitating either Superman compromising or capitalism breaking down as the usual tools of oppression cease to work. Based on the ALE thing, Superman will compromise and be compromised, accelerating the apocalyptic forces of capitalism.

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