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YOLOsubmarine
Oct 19, 2004

When asked which Pokemon he evolved into, Kamara pauses.

"Motherfucking, what's that big dragon shit? That orange motherfucker. Charizard."



Here’s how Rand defined Objectivism standing on foot:

Metaphysics: Existence exists
Epistemology: Reason
Ethics: Egoism
Politics: Capitalism
Aesthetics: Romantic Realism

This is mostly just philosophy as content aggregation but people focus almost entirely on the egoism (which is itself very poorly defined) part and declare that any self-serving action is objectivism as opposed to just...being a thing every human being in the world does sometimes.

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Ferrinus
Jun 19, 2003

i'm finding this quite easy, i guess in part because i'm a fast type but also because i have a coherent mental model of the world

Timeless Appeal posted:

It's not a screenwriting fix. I'm suggesting that different people have different mental models and experiences that influence their work. My overall point is that Snyder's DC work is not objectivist, but he clearly has some appreciation for Rand so you can unpack some influence with a grand total of one line that I find discussing and one line that is kinda sorta that, but also has a lot more going on in it.

As I said before, I like that I think Snyder is challenging himself with some of the questions he raises.

Okay wait, seriously. You're claiming that a character in a movie could only express a viewpoint if the director believes in that viewpoint at some level. So like in The Young Karl Marx, which contains a fictionalized encounter between Marx and a capitalist in which the capitalist makes an anti-semitic remark - that must reflect the director grappling with his own nascent belief that maybe it's the Jews who are behind this socialism business.

Megaman's Jockstrap
Jul 16, 2000

What a horrible thread to have a post.


I mean, Seven Samurai came out in 1956. Atlas Shrugged had literally not been written and Objectivism wasn't a thing, and yet here we have a movie about 7 powerful individuals coming together to help a bunch of incapable peasants.

Die Hard is about a bunch of weak, insipid, and corrupt institutions unable to effectively check Hans Gruber and only one man, super-heroic cop John McClane, can take him down. Die Hard is not an Objectivist movie, nobody thinks about it in those terms at all.

Ghostbusters is about 4 smart and capable dudes working together to do something nobody else can do until the weak and jealous state steps in and interferes, causing all sorts of problems. Nobody thinks of this as Objectivism, in fact it's been noted for years that this is typical Reaganite individualism. The last act of the movie is regular people chanting and cheering for them, and they do in fact save the state from annihilation.

Pretty much every action movie is the hero vs. the villains with everyone else being tertiary characters or mooks to be mowed down by the aforementioned hero/villain. So saying "Zack Snyder's films are thematically the same as every other action movie" tells us nothing about him as a director any more than saying "Zack Snyder has 2 arms and 2 legs and a head". It's a fact but not an illuminating one.

YOLOsubmarine
Oct 19, 2004

When asked which Pokemon he evolved into, Kamara pauses.

"Motherfucking, what's that big dragon shit? That orange motherfucker. Charizard."



https://mobile.twitter.com/AliceAvizandum/status/875665911952416768

This tweet but instead of Corbyn and nationalize it’s YouTube and objectivism

Robot Style
Jul 5, 2009



Burkion posted:

But when he goes back a little bit more, he'll just straight vanish after he's done doing his thing because he's back where he started and people have to catch up

That lines up with BvS - he didn't stay in the past when he visited Bruce, and presumably went back to Bad Future 1a or was just outright killed by time.

Bogus Adventure
Jan 11, 2017

More like "Bulges Adventure"

Ferrinus posted:

Okay wait, seriously. You're claiming that a character in a movie could only express a viewpoint if the director believes in that viewpoint at some level. So like in The Young Karl Marx, which contains a fictionalized encounter between Marx and a capitalist in which the capitalist makes an anti-semitic remark - that must reflect the director grappling with his own nascent belief that maybe it's the Jews who are behind this socialism business.

"My name is General Zod."

Proof that Zack Snyder believes he is General Zod.

Bongo Bill
Jan 17, 2012



You may be interested to read this interview with Chris Terrio.

A Buttery Pastry
Sep 4, 2011

Delicious and Informative!


Bogus Adventure posted:

"My name is General Zod."

Proof that Zack Snyder believes he is General Zod.
“You are not alone” is a far more ominous message than I thought.

Timeless Appeal
May 28, 2006


Ferrinus posted:

Okay wait, seriously. You're claiming that a character in a movie could only express a viewpoint if the director believes in that viewpoint at some level. So like in The Young Karl Marx, which contains a fictionalized encounter between Marx and a capitalist in which the capitalist makes an anti-semitic remark - that must reflect the director grappling with his own nascent belief that maybe it's the Jews who are behind this socialism business.
Your worldview and your experiences influence your work regardless of if you agree or disagree with your characters.

Miching Mallecho
May 24, 2010








quote:

The 2017 theatrical cut was an act of vandalism,” Terrio said. “Zack may be too much of a gentleman to say that, but I’m not.”

Terrio has had enough

AccountSupervisor
Aug 3, 2004

I am greatful for my loop pedal


This is everything Ive ever wanted anyone involved in this franchise to say.

Holy poo poo this rules.

garycoleisgod
Sep 27, 2004
Boo

I loved the bit about the Douchebag #1 investor telling him how to write Batman. I'm imagining him having coke sniffles while talking about the rich are the true heroes.

Bogus Adventure
Jan 11, 2017

More like "Bulges Adventure"

If ZSJL somehow disrupts the lovely hold that execs and money have on entertainment, like letting blockbuster movies tell stories and be something more than 80-110 minute special effect bonanzas, then it will loving own.

That interview is loving FIRE.

McCloud
Oct 27, 2005





One point i found interesting: the studio wanted BvS to be darker than it was, with Batman branding Lex in the end, Lois being punched by african warlords and making jokes about Superman leveling the african camp, but it was Terrio and Zack that pushed back on that

Ferrinus
Jun 19, 2003

i'm finding this quite easy, i guess in part because i'm a fast type but also because i have a coherent mental model of the world

Timeless Appeal posted:

Your worldview and your experiences influence your work regardless of if you agree or disagree with your characters.

Yes, obviously, but it does not then follow that anti-semitism is part of Raoul Peck's worldview. It might, instead, be something he has experienced.

This objectivism stuff is always on such absurdly shaky ground, these Rube Goldberg machines of association. No one seems to be able to put up or shut up.

Gatts
Jan 2, 2001

Goodnight Moon


Nap Ghost

garycoleisgod posted:

I loved the bit about the Douchebag #1 investor telling him how to write Batman. I'm imagining him having coke sniffles while talking about the rich are the true heroes.

I’m imagining the guy from Die Hard that tries to schmooze Hams Gruber

Megaman's Jockstrap
Jul 16, 2000

What a horrible thread to have a post.


Gatts posted:

I’m imagining the guy from Die Hard that tries to schmooze Hams Gruber

Ellis. Terrio should have sent him one of these shirts:

https://www.cafepress.com/dont_be_ellis

ruddiger
Jun 3, 2004



Gatts posted:

I’m imagining the guy from Die Hard that tries to schmooze Hams Gruber

Ellis! He directed PCU, it’s a trip hearing him talk about creative control for the movie on the commentary track.

2house2fly
Nov 14, 2012

You did a super job wrapping things up! And I'm not just saying that because I have to!

Miching Mallecho posted:

Terrio has had enough

Lol, and while Snyder may be too much of a gentleman to call it vandalism, we know that multiple people close to him have begged him not to watch it, so to him it's the equivalent of like, an ISIS execution on liveleak

KVeezy3
Aug 18, 2005

Airport Music for Black Folk



God, that anecdote of the creatives being forced to cajole with Capital itself is amazing. It would be too farcical for a fictional story.

Miching Mallecho
May 24, 2010







quote:

What was your relationship with Zack?

Good. I have nothing whatsoever bad to say about Zack. He has a skill set that I don’t have, as a visualist. And he has a contagious excitement—that when you describe a scene, he almost can’t contain himself and he just wants to go draw it or paint it. Zack never for a second turned his back on me or doubted my work.

After Batman/Superman, many of my Hollywood friends just stopped talking to me because they sort of thought that somehow I was complicit in this very public failure of a studio film. You learn pretty quickly who your real friends are and who your air-kiss Hollywood friends are. Zack could not have been more supportive and never stopped believing that together, we were going to create this big, epic DC world.

Zack

AccountSupervisor
Aug 3, 2004

I am greatful for my loop pedal

The fact Snyder had nothing to do with the decision on the slate of films and that Terrio wrote JL before Wonder Womans script was even finished is absolutely loving insane.

They were handed a complete shitshow of a franchise plan and managed to crank out 3 incredible movies in spite of every awful executive pushing against them. That is a Hollywood feat and a true miracle of creative genius.

ungulateman
Apr 18, 2012
Hello I am a person doing a thing via buttons. It's amazing what electronic singnals traveling through space can accomplish.

Makes ya think.

Purple m&ms are the best.

A Buttery Pastry posted:

When faced with a monstrous construct of control, he merely says "Not for me" instead of "Not for anyone". Whether the takeaway is supposed to be that this is the ideal Superman is another question entirely, but the movies seem pretty sympathetic to Superman's eventual ethics.

Are...are you referring to the world engine? The monstrous construct of control that he destroys because it will destroy the whole world, for everyone? Or the scout ship with the birth matrix, which will do basically the same thing, just slower? I don't understand how you can come to this conclusion

McCloud
Oct 27, 2005





ungulateman posted:

Are...are you referring to the world engine? The monstrous construct of control that he destroys because it will destroy the whole world, for everyone? Or the scout ship with the birth matrix, which will do basically the same thing, just slower? I don't understand how you can come to this conclusion

Spy drone i think

Mr. Apollo
Nov 8, 2000



Zack is the real life Chad meme where he just wants to lift up and help other people and for everyone to have a good time and enjoy themselves.

KVeezy3 posted:

God, that anecdote of the creatives being forced to cajole with Capital itself is amazing. It would be too farcical for a fictional story.
I liked the part where WB trotted out the cast in front of the institutional investors like a dog and pony show.

Mr. Apollo fucked around with this message at 03:53 on Apr 9, 2021

Bogus Adventure
Jan 11, 2017

More like "Bulges Adventure"

Terrio's answers about having to "take notes" from investors makes me think of the CHIPS movie and how Steve Mnuchin was an executive producer. That movie had an incredibly surreal obsession with talking about eating rear end (like a GBS-level obsession). Steve Mnuchin mandating rear end-eating as a "load bearing plot point" in the CHIPS movie is now part of my head canon for the production of that movie.

A Buttery Pastry
Sep 4, 2011

Delicious and Informative!


ungulateman posted:

Are...are you referring to the world engine? The monstrous construct of control that he destroys because it will destroy the whole world, for everyone? Or the scout ship with the birth matrix, which will do basically the same thing, just slower? I don't understand how you can come to this conclusion
The American state.

The Notorious ZSB
Apr 19, 2004

I SAID WE'RE NOT GONNA BE FUCKING SUCK THIS YEAR!!!



The best part of this to me is that everyone gets a pose, but Batman, he's just a car.

MacheteZombie
Feb 4, 2007





The Notorious ZSB posted:

The best part of this to me is that everyone gets a pose, but Batman, he's just a car.

The car doing a lil bunny hop makes me smile

Alexander Hamilton
Dec 29, 2008


All of Batman's fancy toys doing something cool before immediately getting wrecked is a fun little thing in both BvS and Justice League.

Mr. Kurtz
Feb 22, 2007

Here comes the hurdy gurdy man.

Alexander Hamilton posted:

All of Batman's fancy toys doing something cool before immediately getting wrecked is a fun little thing in both BvS and Justice League.

When I was watching it with friends pretty much everyone laughed when he was like "my turn" then his crab machine thing gets axed something fierce.

KVeezy3
Aug 18, 2005

Airport Music for Black Folk


A Buttery Pastry posted:

The American state.

As Superman, Clark certainly has trepidations about engaging too directly with politics, and so relegates his heroics to disasters. While It is a political statement to not only interrupt but destroy the C.I.A’s drone on foreign soil, the U.S. media apparatus was able to effectively frame the massacre as 'The Superman Incident'. The U.S. worries about such a powerful figure who cares beyond nation states, and questions whether even his limited actions should be curtailed.

One of these ‘apolitical’ disasters is the Juarez rescue scene, where Superman’s initial joy is quickly overtaken by deep apprehension when the Mexican people solemnly reach out to him. Jaurez’s many maquiladoras are emblematic of the wildly exploitative relationship that the global north has with the global south (NAFTA’s “Free Trade-zone” designation escalated the ability of U.S. owned maquiladoras to extract even more cheap Mexican labor). With the skull imagery echoing the scene in Man of Steel where he's swallowed up by human skulls, here Superman comes face to face with the limits of his current level of activity, and how much injustice is left behind,



It’s his position as a reporter that he tries to bring attention to systemic issues, as a part of humanity. As he finds that private media is deeply compromised under contemporary capitalism, it’s this process that he becomes increasingly disillusioned with. The impetus for Clark to get involved as Superman is not just Batman’s targeting of the poor, but the fact that the police state supports it. And so he decides to use his power to fight for the civil rights of a sex trafficker and he ultimately sacrifices himself to destroy the unholy union of capital and Krypton.

KVeezy3 fucked around with this message at 18:09 on Apr 9, 2021

ruddiger
Jun 3, 2004



I love that Batman looks absolutely loving terrified while whipping around in that metal coffin.

“You really are out of your mind!”

Neo Rasa
Mar 8, 2007
Everyone should play DUKE games.



KVeezy3 posted:

As Superman, Clark certainly has trepidations about engaging too directly with politics, and so relegates his heroics to disasters. While It is a political statement to not only interrupt but destroy the C.I.A’s drone on foreign soil, the U.S. media apparatus was able to effectively frame the massacre as 'The Superman Incident'. The U.S. worries about such a powerful figure who cares beyond nation states, and questions whether even his limited actions should be curtailed.

One of these ‘apolitical’ disasters is the Juarez rescue scene, where Superman’s initial joy is quickly overtaken by deep apprehension when the Mexican people solemnly reach out to him. Jaurez’s many maquiladoras are emblematic of the wildly exploitative relationship that the global north has with the global south (NAFTA’s “Free Trade-zone” designation escalated the ability of U.S. owned maquiladoras to extract even more cheap Mexican labor). With the skull imagery echoing the scene in Man of Steel where he's swallowed up by human skulls, here Superman comes face to face with the limits of his current level of activity, and how much injustice is left behind,



It’s his position as a reporter that he tries to bring attention to systemic issues, as a part of humanity. As he finds that private media is deeply compromised under contemporary capitalism, it’s this process that he becomes increasingly disillusioned with. The impetus for Clark to get involved as Superman is not just Batman’s targeting of the poor, but the fact that the police state supports it. And so he decides to use his power to fight for the civil rights of a sex trafficker and he ultimately sacrifices himself to destroy the unholy union of capital and Krypton.

Amusingly in Man of Steel he was going to spike a drone in front of Swanwick outside of the US but this was changed in notes from their military consultant people because then it would imply that the US uses drones to hurt people. They also made it a point that any time a drone was mentioned it has to be specifically said to be unarmed. So BVS was an extremely real flick in this respect.

bushisms.txt
May 26, 2004

Scroll, then. There are other posts than these.



MacheteZombie posted:

The car doing a lil bunny hop makes me smile

It looks like it's reacting to Aquaman landing next to it. The whole composition rules.

Timeless Appeal
May 28, 2006


The Notorious ZSB posted:

The best part of this to me is that everyone gets a pose, but Batman, he's just a car.
It's mirrored in the last shot of Batman who has created an even bigger car.

It was definitely a bold choice that there's no illusion that any of the League members really hold a candle to Superman and inversely there is no illusion Batman can hang. Cyborg almost immediately makes him irrelevant and even his one actual success with Flash, he drops his whole Sam-Jackson-in-Iron-Man deal and can't hold back how happy he is that someone actually said yes. His only W is for something Wonder Woman still could have just did on her own.

McCloud
Oct 27, 2005





The funny thing about the US government complaining about Supermans unilateral actions on foreign soil are that they're just mad it's interfering with their unilateral actions ln foreign soil.

McSpanky
Jan 16, 2005







Timeless Appeal posted:

It's mirrored in the last shot of Batman who has created an even bigger car.

It was definitely a bold choice that there's no illusion that any of the League members really hold a candle to Superman and inversely there is no illusion Batman can hang. Cyborg almost immediately makes him irrelevant and even his one actual success with Flash, he drops his whole Sam-Jackson-in-Iron-Man deal and can't hold back how happy he is that someone actually said yes. His only W is for something Wonder Woman still could have just did on her own.

I was definitely surprised to see Batman fighting for his life against a single Parademon in the tunnel sequence, that's the kind of honesty you almost never get from comic book movies. Like yeah, it's an invasion of super-powered aliens who are born and bred for this, they aren't gonna have much trouble with someone who punches and kicks good (or shoots dual Glocks, or has a fancy bow and arrows, joss).

KVeezy3
Aug 18, 2005

Airport Music for Black Folk


McSpanky posted:

I was definitely surprised to see Batman fighting for his life against a single Parademon in the tunnel sequence, that's the kind of honesty you almost never get from comic book movies. Like yeah, it's an invasion of super-powered aliens who are born and bred for this, they aren't gonna have much trouble with someone who punches and kicks good (or shoots dual Glocks, or has a fancy bow and arrows, joss).

Yeah, I think that's an interesting thing that the film does with Batman, by elaborating on the kind of violence that viewers deem Batmanish enough. It establishes that the Parademons are no joke, with their attack on the Amazons, and the scene where they're dragging helpless Atlantean soldiers out of the ocean. Batman's relative effectiveness in the mano y mano tunnel fight is impressive enough in this context, but really elevates his effectiveness when he utilizes artillery in the Night-Crawler.

The film draws a further difference with the assault on Steppenwolf's base, where he straight up uses guns to devastating effect. Despite similarly using the weapons of his enemies against them as in BvS, there's something to be said by the complete lack of backlash by Batman purists over these scenes.

KVeezy3 fucked around with this message at 03:16 on Apr 10, 2021

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Timeless Appeal
May 28, 2006


McSpanky posted:

I was definitely surprised to see Batman fighting for his life against a single Parademon in the tunnel sequence, that's the kind of honesty you almost never get from comic book movies. Like yeah, it's an invasion of super-powered aliens who are born and bred for this, they aren't gonna have much trouble with someone who punches and kicks good (or shoots dual Glocks, or has a fancy bow and arrows, joss).
I'm not hot on Snyder's action like others, but I do give him maintaining a consistency and weight to things. One of the things that bugs the hell out of me with the last two Avengers movies is that it has this pretty great opening that has TDKR levels of just seeing the heroes being devastated. But after starting from this point of Thanos being able to take down Thor and Hulk even without the stones, he is sort of rubber-banded in strength for whoever is fighting him. That moment where Cap gets the hammer should feel stronger than it is because Captain America going against Thanos should be a terrifying depiction of a brave man fighting against a fascist who he knows deep down he cannot defeat. The hammer should be this big feel of not just excitement but relief. But you never really feel much danger with Thanos the moment they play inconsistent with just how strong he is supposed to be.

I gotta give it to Snyder that while I obviously know that Batman's not gonna die, it's hard to not feel scared for Batman. Affleck does a good job with it.

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