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Brazilianpeanutwar
Aug 27, 2015

Spent my walletfull, on a jpeg, desolate, will croberts make a whale of me yet?


Neurolimal posted:

Remember when WB was trying to distinguish themselves with "we let our artists make *their* movie, we dont restrict them like Marvel" type rhetoric? Its pretty funny in hindsight, with the Justice League rolling SNAFU, butchering Suicide Squad, saturating Aquaman, canceling New Gods (either because they stole the script, or because it would remind people of SCJL's existence too much), and whatever's going on with Flash.

As restrictive as Marvel can be, AFAIK they havenít thrown someones movie to a team of trailer editors (or worse, Joss Whedon) to chop up after itís finished.Most directors seem to understand going in that they wont be directing the action scenes, and the color grading will be bad.

Ant-man and edgar wright would disagree.

Edit : gently caress trying to edit a line on the phone,i was trying bold the AFAIK bit.

Brazilianpeanutwar fucked around with this message at 20:01 on Apr 30, 2021

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2house2fly
Nov 14, 2012

You did a super job wrapping things up! And I'm not just saying that because I have to!

Neurolimal posted:

Wasnt the darker script stuff like a quip about Superman killing african warlords? Even if you want a dark and serious story, I can understand removing trash like that.
Yeah...

quote:

[the original script made] a joke out of Superman raining hell upon Black African Muslim characters in the desert, as Lois promises that Superman is not going to go easy on them because they punched her
I can sort of imagine a similar scene in an Avengers film, where Pepper Potts would be kidnapped by terrorists and they punch her and instead of cowering as they expect she goes "ooooh big mistake" and then Iron Man comes along and blows them all up badassly

Guy A. Person
May 23, 2003



Neurolimal posted:

Wasnt the darker script stuff like a quip about Superman killing african warlords? Even if you want a dark and serious story, I can understand removing trash like that.

Yeah this is the thing: it was "darker" but only in the sense that it was more flippant about the subject matter it was dealing with (and therefor more cynical but with a more relaxed tone). The issue is some people would look at the jokey mocking tone and be like "ah they are just having fun out there". Taking serious situations seriously often gets mistaken for being "grimdark" in these discussions unfortunately.

Halloween Jack
Sep 11, 2003

Let your word be "Yes, Yes" or "No, No"; anything more than this comes from the evil one.




A Buttery Pastry posted:

They cover a wide range of topics, from the importance of standing up to government to protect private property, the virtue of putting your faith in great men, and a general end of history mindset.
I haven't rewatched any MCU movies (besides Thor 3 and Guardians) in a long time, but these are two long-running threads I remember:

1. We have no idea what SHIELD really is, and neither do the filmmakers. Same deal with the "World Security Council" and everything connected to SHIELD. Like, the Department of Defense didn't give the first Avengers the raft of free stuff that these movies usually get, because they're very protective of their image and they couldn't work out what SHIELD is even supposed to be. Is it part of the DoD, or the DHS, or its own federal law enforcement agency, or some kind of intergovernmental organization like NATO? And this is important, because the MCU constantly tried to play with these big-picture themes of power, and security vs. freedom and so on, and it's always extremely muddled because we don't know on what authority SHIELD and the Avengers do what they do. By the time of Age of Ultron, it appears that the Avengers are a mercenary company sponsored by Stark Industries.

2. In all of these movies, anyone who could be said to represent "the people" is some combination of stupid, selfish, and/or evil. The journalist who has a one-night stand with Tony Stark, the US Senator who's secretly a member of Hydra, the United Nations. If you have a problem with the heroes going wherever they want and blowing up buildings, you're a bad guy.

Megaman's Jockstrap
Jul 16, 2000

What a horrible thread to have a post.


2house2fly posted:

I can sort of imagine a similar scene in an Avengers film, where Pepper Potts would be kidnapped by terrorists and they punch her and instead of cowering as they expect she goes "ooooh big mistake" and then Iron Man comes along and blows them all up badassly

Interestingly enough, this is how the CW show Lois and Superman handles a situation. Lois is getting attacked by a big goon and presses her ultrasonic "Superman Summoning Pager", makes a quip, and then Superman just crashes through the wall and smashes the dude, no questions asked.

Roth
Jul 9, 2016


Megaman's Jockstrap posted:

Interestingly enough, this is how the CW show Lois and Superman handles a situation. Lois is getting attacked by a big goon and presses her ultrasonic "Superman Summoning Pager", makes a quip, and then Superman just crashes through the wall and smashes the dude, no questions asked.

And that goon? Zack Snyder

McCloud
Oct 27, 2005





Halloween Jack posted:



2. In all of these movies, anyone who could be said to represent "the people" is some combination of stupid, selfish, and/or evil. The journalist who has a one-night stand with Tony Stark, the US Senator who's secretly a member of Hydra, the United Nations. If you have a problem with the heroes going wherever they want and blowing up buildings, you're a bad guy.

Not just that, even just paying lipservice to the idea of accountability makes you the bad guy, see Civil War (or better yet, don't. )

RBA Starblade
Apr 27, 2008

Going Home.



Games Idiot Court Jester


Civil War was pretty good

I got a lol out of Black Panther ending the movie like "wow everything that just happened was real dumb, I'm leaving"

DeimosRising
Oct 17, 2005

°Hola SEA!




HUNDU THE BEAST GOD posted:

The new Captain Falcon show is even worse in this regard, insanely dire politics to the point where you really wish they wouldn't have bothered.

What's the deal with it? I saw part of one episode and it was pretty dire, embarrassing dialogue and it appeared that they were pursuing the bader-meinhoff group for distributing medicine to refugees or something?

Guy A. Person
May 23, 2003



RBA Starblade posted:

Civil War was pretty good

I got a lol out of Black Panther ending the movie like "wow everything that just happened was real dumb, I'm leaving"

Black Panther was easily the best part, and it was pretty stylish at parts. Some of the action scenes were sloppily edited, and while the airport fight had some fun ideas and good character interaction it also had the most reshot inserts (you could easily tell when they just smash cut close up on a character's face while they made a quip) and the whole thing felt kind of perfunctory instead of having high stakes (and my god the action jogging was embarassing). I feel like they could've/should've cut at least one storyline to let it breath a little bit as well.

Roth
Jul 9, 2016


It's really funny how many people complain there wasn't movies for Flash, Cyborg, and Aquaman before Justice League that didn't say anything about how fast Spider-Man was just dumped into the MCU.

2house2fly
Nov 14, 2012

You did a super job wrapping things up! And I'm not just saying that because I have to!

The end of Civil War was v satisfying because it had an end fight where Iron Man was unambiguously the bad guy, and because Black Panther decided to not get involved and just arrest the dude

Robot Style
Jul 5, 2009



Roth posted:

It's really funny how many people complain there wasn't movies for Flash, Cyborg, and Aquaman before Justice League that didn't say anything about how fast Spider-Man was just dumped into the MCU.

Spider-Man's kind of a unique case, since there had already been 2 other actors playing the character within the past decade, so he's more like James Bond in that way and the audience already knows what to expect. Nobody really cared if Peter Parker was going to show up - they just wanted to see a CGI red and blue suit on the screen at the same time as the other Avengers, and there's no way they would have marketed the movie with Tom Holland appearing as the new character Night Monkey.

Black Panther's another example of the same thing, but Marvel had things figured out by Civil War. The entire draw of the MCU is a cycle of seeing characters from different movies interact, and then introducing more characters for the next crossover. The first Avengers movie made a billion dollars through novelty alone, and when Age of Ultron did the exact same things but without the novelty, it fell flat. Instead, they turned their new characters into extended versions of post-credits cameos. Black Panther's appearance in Civil War was announced minutes after the reveal of his solo movie, turning it into a "sneak peek" of a new character.

Since Justice League didn't have the built-in novelty of standalone characters crossing over for the first time, and because BvS didn't spend any time on Wonder Woman's backstory (despite it being functionally identical to the "sneak peek" Black Panther thing) the assumption was that Justice League wouldn't do it either. It was impossible to conceive that a superhero movie would spend any time developing characters or creating an engaging story that didn't rely on novelty.

bushisms.txt
May 26, 2004

Scroll, then. There are other posts than these.



Neurolimal posted:

Wasnt the darker script stuff like a quip about Superman killing african warlords? Even if you want a dark and serious story, I can understand removing trash like that.

They were also going to end the movie with Batman branding Lex.

Sodomy Hussein
Oct 9, 2005

Everything is subject to the needs of intelligence, for geniuses like me. If we actually solve problems, people won't need me and people like me, and this is a travesty without end. You have to squeeze the poor so they know their place, and you fucking commies forget that.


2house2fly posted:

To Thor, the oppressed uighurs in xinjiang are space aliens!

Then you are truly lost!

Parrotine
Dec 19, 2012

Wolverine with Parrots!


Jimbot posted:

I highly recommend going back and watching the previous two film and see if your opinion changes. Some people came out of those films liking them a whole lot more after Justice League. Sometimes it helps knowing the destination to make the journey better. The Ultimate Cut of BvS is the way to go, though. It was what was originally going to be released until at the 11th hour WB pulled a WB and Snyder was forced to strip 30 minutes from it.

I might go back and do this with Man of Steel. I remember during release it was constantly getting compared to the first Avengers, and the critic/cultural consensus sort of soured my opinion on it during that time. Maybe now that we're outside of that MCU bubble I'll get more out of it on second viewing, it's been a really long time since I saw it last.

BvS might be a bit of a tough sell, that's got to be one drat good cut for me to sit through that again. Snyder seems to be real hit-or-miss when it comes to his catalogue, but this Justice League revision has really made me consider that it may be more the fault of the studio interfering with his work rather than the man's directoral eye, cause when he hits they're full-on out of the park Grand Slams.

Martman
Nov 20, 2006

SEXY... defines my posts and my ride


My issue with BvS is that the paranoid political conspiracy stuff has an extremely different feel now from 2016. Personally I think that speaks to it being ahead of its time and Snyder actually being a person who's aware of the political climate of the USA, but the basic imagery of a politically convenient "attack the Capitol" event for instance hits in a very different way now imo. I still love the movie but when I last watched it with a friend a month ago I found the paranoid fever-dream vibe a bit more... normal than it should be.

Also the scene where you have BS media commenting on Superman features both Charlie Rose and Neil DeGrasse Tyson and it's like..... drat.

CelticPredator
Oct 11, 2013



Batman being a right winger racist rules

It makes sense.

Roth
Jul 9, 2016


Martman posted:

My issue with BvS is that the paranoid political conspiracy stuff has an extremely different feel now from 2016. Personally I think that speaks to it being ahead of its time and Snyder actually being a person who's aware of the political climate of the USA, but the basic imagery of a politically convenient "attack the Capitol" event for instance hits in a very different way now imo. I still love the movie but when I last watched it with a friend a month ago I found the paranoid fever-dream vibe a bit more... normal than it should be.

Also the scene where you have BS media commenting on Superman features both Charlie Rose and Neil DeGrasse Tyson and it's like..... drat.

Zack Snyder got Neil DeGrasse Tyson in his movie to debate "The Superman Question"

Necrothatcher
Mar 26, 2005






Parrotine posted:

BvS might be a bit of a tough sell, that's got to be one drat good cut for me to sit through that again. Snyder seems to be real hit-or-miss when it comes to his catalogue, but this Justice League revision has really made me consider that it may be more the fault of the studio interfering with his work rather than the man's directoral eye, cause when he hits they're full-on out of the park Grand Slams.

I loving hated the theatrical BvS and had to be dragged kicking and screaming to the Ultimate Ed, but it completely turned me around on it.

Turns out knowing why characters are doing stuff makes films better.

Snowman_McK
Jan 31, 2010
ASK ME ABOUT MY SELF-PUBLISHED WARHAMMER FANFICTION AND MY KNIFE COLLECTION


Necrothatcher posted:

I don't think it's that ridiculous. The worst Marvel movies are just bland and boring rather than outright bad.

This is true of the best ones too, though. This is the issue. They're all fine. There's not a bad one, and there's not a truly great one.


Necrothatcher posted:

I loving hated the theatrical BvS and had to be dragged kicking and screaming to the Ultimate Ed, but it completely turned me around on it.

Turns out knowing why characters are doing stuff makes films better.

I liked that it placed the viewer so squarely in batman's shoes, that it made Superman opaque and thus terrifying to him, but I also get why only the ultimate edition works for others.

The United States
Jul 18, 2004

Please grab the extinguisher


Melman v2

Martman posted:

My issue with BvS is that the paranoid political conspiracy stuff has an extremely different feel now from 2016. Personally I think that speaks to it being ahead of its time and Snyder actually being a person who's aware of the political climate of the USA, but the basic imagery of a politically convenient "attack the Capitol" event for instance hits in a very different way now imo. I still love the movie but when I last watched it with a friend a month ago I found the paranoid fever-dream vibe a bit more... normal than it should be.

Also the scene where you have BS media commenting on Superman features both Charlie Rose and Neil DeGrasse Tyson and it's like..... drat.
Don't forget everyone's favorite Gay British (White) Supremacist, Andrew Sullivan

2house2fly
Nov 14, 2012

You did a super job wrapping things up! And I'm not just saying that because I have to!

Necrothatcher posted:

I loving hated the theatrical BvS and had to be dragged kicking and screaming to the Ultimate Ed, but it completely turned me around on it.

Turns out knowing why characters are doing stuff makes films better.

One example that stood out to me was, in the theatrical cut Superman gets up in Batman's face and threatens him for kind of no reason. In the ultimate cut there's a whole subplot of Clark investigating this vigilante in Gotham who's brutalising people, culminating in (spoilers for possible new viewers) him asking the wife of a dead branded inmate to help him put a stop to it with journalism, and her saying it would be pointless because the only thing someone like Batman understands is violence. That context makes the "consider this mercy" scene hit differently

JonathonSpectre
Jul 23, 2003

I replaced the Shermatar and text with this because I don't wanna see racial slurs every time you post what the fuck


Soiled Meat

2house2fly posted:

One example that stood out to me was, in the theatrical cut Superman gets up in Batman's face and threatens him for kind of no reason. In the ultimate cut there's a whole subplot of Clark investigating this vigilante in Gotham who's brutalising people, culminating in (spoilers for possible new viewers) him asking the wife of a dead branded inmate to help him put a stop to it with journalism, and her saying it would be pointless because the only thing someone like Batman understands is violence. That context makes the "consider this mercy" scene hit differently

Good thing they could cut that meaningless part out so they could get another showing in every day!

OH poo poo 69% DROP PEOPLE ARE SAYING IT'S INCOHERENT CALL JOSS HE'S GOOD RIGHT

Star Wars cuts out the entire scene with the Sand People where Obi-Wan meets Luke, Luke goes from "We gotta find R2!" to sitting in Obi-Wan's hut being handed a lightsaber with nothing in between.

No problems here!

Guy A. Person
May 23, 2003



JonathonSpectre posted:

Good thing they could cut that meaningless part out so they could get another showing in every day!

OH poo poo 69% DROP PEOPLE ARE SAYING IT'S INCOHERENT CALL JOSS HE'S GOOD RIGHT

Star Wars cuts out the entire scene with the Sand People where Obi-Wan meets Luke, Luke goes from "We gotta find R2!" to sitting in Obi-Wan's hut being handed a lightsaber with nothing in between.

No problems here!

Yea someone mentioned the 69% drop and WBs panicked reaction to it earlier, and this is the most infuriating part of that entire ordeal. Given the reaction to BvS Ultimate and now especially ZSJL itís extremely easy to imagine a timeline where that stupid last minute cut to get in more showings doesnít happen and both movies are significantly more successful.

And again the ironic thing is they mandated the cut because they were so super excited about the movie that they thought they had a hit. The fact that people are in charge of movies that donít realize a movie changes when you cut 30 minutes is loving mind blowing.

Timeless Appeal
May 28, 2006


Martman posted:

Also the scene where you have BS media commenting on Superman features both Charlie Rose and Neil DeGrasse Tyson and it's like..... drat.
Oy.

I do like that Nancy Grace is in the movie as herself and is kinda the bad guy? I don't think any version of BvS is particularly good, but that's a master stroke.

A Buttery Pastry
Sep 4, 2011

Delicious and Informative!


Guy A. Person posted:

And again the ironic thing is they mandated the cut because they were so super excited about the movie that they thought they had a hit. The fact that people are in charge of movies that donít realize a movie changes when you cut 30 minutes is loving mind blowing.
They shouldíve just sped up the movie until it was 2 hours long.

Jerk McJerkface
Jan 16, 2004

LINUX LINUX LINUX LINUX LINUX LINUX LINUX LINUX LINUX LINUX LINUX LINUX LINUX LINUX LINUX LINUX LINUX LINUX LINUX LINUX LINUX LINUX LINUX LINUX LINUX LINUX LINUX LINUX LINUX LINUX LINUX LINUX LINUX LINUX LINUX LINUX LINUX LINUX LINUX LINUX LINUX LINUX LINUX LINUX LINUX



Soiled Meat

Snowman_McK posted:

This is true of the best ones too, though. This is the issue. They're all fine. There's not a bad one, and there's not a truly great one.


This is my problem with 90% of everything now. I'm almost half way done living, and I don't have time for just "eh it's fine" now. I don't want to go to my grave regretting that I didn't keep up on the MCU or the Star Wars or whatever.

CelticPredator
Oct 11, 2013



Necrothatcher posted:

I loving hated the theatrical BvS and had to be dragged kicking and screaming to the Ultimate Ed, but it completely turned me around on it.

Turns out knowing why characters are doing stuff makes films better.

It made me rethink who Zack Snyder was as a filmmaker. Which I realized he was a huge idiot who didnít understand how to tell a story any more.

That was wrong thankfully and it was just bad editing to keep a studio mandate.

Parrotine
Dec 19, 2012

Wolverine with Parrots!


Necrothatcher posted:

I loving hated the theatrical BvS and had to be dragged kicking and screaming to the Ultimate Ed, but it completely turned me around on it.

Turns out knowing why characters are doing stuff makes films better.

Then perhaps I will give it another go in the future. If it turns out to be another JL Snyder Cut scario then WB need to find whoever made the original film edits for BvS/JL and fire them into the Sun, they are losing money hand over foot with him behind the editing wheel.

On another note, one of the big takeaways I get from watching all these Snyder movies is that he wants to make a Venom movie badly. For gently caress's sake Sony give this make a $TEXAS budget and make it happen already, I am dying to see that happen.

Timeless Appeal
May 28, 2006


Parrotine posted:

Then perhaps I will give it another go in the future. If it turns out to be another JL Snyder Cut scario then WB need to find whoever made the original film edits for BvS/JL and fire them into the Sun, they are losing money hand over foot with him behind the editing wheel.
I don't love it, but it's very different than Snyder Cut. Syder Cut is an insane dream cut that clearly isn't what would have ever been released in theaters, but BvS Ultimate Cut is just the actual movie that should have been released. I still don't love it, but it's definitely more competent in storytelling and Superman seems like less of a psychopath in it. Besides the corny lottery ticket Clark investigated Newar--Gotham is legitimately great and probably the best onscreen Kent-as-reporter stuff.

quote:

On another note, one of the big takeaways I get from watching all these Snyder movies is that he wants to make a Venom movie badly. For gently caress's sake Sony give this make a $TEXAS budget and make it happen already, I am dying to see that happen.
It would be really funny if Marvel had him do something like the Sentry or Squadron Supreme.

Halloween Jack
Sep 11, 2003

Let your word be "Yes, Yes" or "No, No"; anything more than this comes from the evil one.




Zack Snyder's Plastic Man

Neurolimal
Nov 3, 2012


Snyder's expressed interest in Elektra Lives Again; I could have seen him doing it under Fox, Marvel would have to radically change their studio-director relationship to make that even a possibility.

KVeezy3
Aug 18, 2005

Airport Music for Black Folk


Parrotine posted:

Then perhaps I will give it another go in the future. If it turns out to be another JL Snyder Cut scario then WB need to find whoever made the original film edits for BvS/JL and fire them into the Sun, they are losing money hand over foot with him behind the editing wheel.

Editors may officially hold that title, but they don't operate in a vacuum, as studio mandates on editing aren't restricted to just length, but also content. Case in point, both of the released BvS cuts were done by the same person, David Brenner, whose hand also played a significant role in keeping alive and shaping the editing work of the Snyder Cut.

So while Brenner gets called incompetent and takes a hit to his reputation as a craftsmen, the anonymous & amorphous mass of corporate executives trying to appease investors to justify their checks still get their bonuses.

LesterGroans
Jun 9, 2009

It's funny...

You were so scary at night.


CelticPredator posted:

Batman being a right winger racist rules

It makes sense.

It rules.

Both Snyder and the MCU made a hero that's "Dick Cheney taking matters into his own hands" but only Snyder had the sense to pull the trigger and make him a full-on villain.

KVeezy3
Aug 18, 2005

Airport Music for Black Folk


LesterGroans posted:

It rules.

Both Snyder and the MCU made a hero that's "Dick Cheney taking matters into his own hands" but only Snyder had the sense to pull the trigger and make him a full-on villain.

And then have him see the error of his ways, rooted in the inability to deal with traumatic events, and convert to Christianity.

LesterGroans
Jun 9, 2009

It's funny...

You were so scary at night.


KVeezy3 posted:

And then have him see the error of his ways, rooted in the inability to deal with traumatic events, and convert to Christianity.

Batman going door-to-door recruiting superheroes for the Church of the Latter Day Superman rules so hard.

Tuxedo Catfish
Mar 17, 2007

You've got guts! Come to my village, I'll buy you lunch.


A Buttery Pastry posted:

They shouldíve just sped up the movie until it was 2 hours long.

release the FitFortDanga cut!

Bongo Bill
Jan 17, 2012



MCU movies come across a lot better if you approach it from the perspective that the narrative and thematic content of a movie is irrelevant, and rather what matters is the appearance of the cast, the costumes used, and the extravagance of the visual effects. That is to say, if you think about it like a studio executive.

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Snowman_McK
Jan 31, 2010
ASK ME ABOUT MY SELF-PUBLISHED WARHAMMER FANFICTION AND MY KNIFE COLLECTION


Jerk McJerkface posted:

This is my problem with 90% of everything now. I'm almost half way done living, and I don't have time for just "eh it's fine" now. I don't want to go to my grave regretting that I didn't keep up on the MCU or the Star Wars or whatever.

You'll be pleased to know that at least one of the new Star Wars things is straight up bad.

I've decided that I no longer rate films on whether they're good or bad, but on whether they're interesting. It's done me a lot of good.

Bongo Bill posted:

MCU movies come across a lot better if you approach it from the perspective that the narrative and thematic content of a movie is irrelevant, and rather what matters is the appearance of the cast, the costumes used, and the extravagance of the visual effects. That is to say, if you think about it like a studio executive.

They look like poo poo, rush the CGI artists and actively hide how good the costumes look.

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