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Necrothatcher
Mar 26, 2005






RBA Starblade posted:

Batman's big brain strategy for the magic material from beyond the stars is to put it on a stick and inside a grenade launcher and hope he doesn't miss the guy who can fly faster than jets

They're not very smart characters

Why would Superman even try to dodge a projectile fired at him?

Like the guy is famously known for standing there while bullets harmlessly bounce off him, as shown two minutes ago in the film.

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Grendels Dad
Mar 5, 2011

Popular culture has passed you by.

I have Avengers Endgame on in the background because that's the kind of movie it is, and when I turned to the screen for a moment there was a transition from Captain Marvel looking down on a starving Tony all benevolent to a close-up of a disposable razor. Movie fight is ON.

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised




McCloud posted:

See, that was your mistake, if you don't care about allegorical meaning in a zack snyder film you're already way over your head

Snyder's stuff is like baby's first symbolism and about as subtle as a kryptonite brick that the dude loving loves Excalibur and classical art, and still makes so many people angry and confused that it's not spelled out for them

Also, trying to think about superheroes realistically is about the dumbest thing you can possibly do

ungulateman
Apr 18, 2012
Hello I am a person doing a thing via buttons. It's amazing what electronic singnals traveling through space can accomplish.

Makes ya think.

Purple m&ms are the best.

Grendels Dad posted:

I have Avengers Endgame on in the background because that's the kind of movie it is, and when I turned to the screen for a moment there was a transition from Captain Marvel looking down on a starving Tony all benevolent to a close-up of a disposable razor. Movie fight is ON.

what are the odds that this was some extremely over-wrought attempt to get the same people who got mad at both gilette and captain marvel to get mad at endgame in order to drive engagement?

i only bring this up because the climax has a sequence that exists entirely to do exactly that and even the idiot moron chuds went 'that's bait' and didn't get mad at it so now i'm wondering how much of that is in the rest of the movie

Snowman_McK
Jan 31, 2010
ASK ME ABOUT MY SELF-PUBLISHED WARHAMMER FANFICTION AND MY KNIFE COLLECTION


RBA Starblade posted:

Batman's big brain strategy for the magic material from beyond the stars is to put it on a stick and inside a grenade launcher and hope he doesn't miss the guy who can fly faster than jets

They're not very smart characters

And also create a circumstance under which the very fast guy isn't moving very fast, giving him a clean shot.

2house2fly
Nov 14, 2012

You did a super job wrapping things up! And I'm not just saying that because I have to!

Superman isn't aware that a substance exists that can hurt him, so as far as he's concerned he has no reason to need to fly faster than a jet away from Batman. This is like that guy I saw saying "why doesn't Superman simply rip all Batman's armour off and throw his weapons away in a split second" and the answer is "it probably didn't occur to him to do that, because his goal is for Batman to help him save his mother and stripping him naked in the pouring rain isn't an obvious step in achieving that goal"

evobatman
Jul 30, 2006

it means nothing, but says everything!

Pillbug

Away all Goats posted:

I'm the precariously balanced WiiU(?) balancing on a DVD player(?) balancing on an OG XBOX. What is even going on here.

The DVD player is sitting on a shelf hanging under the TV. There is supposed to be a PS2 on top of the DVD player next to the Wii, but I disconnected it to hook up the PS3 that you can just see peeking up in the foreground. The PS3 plays the movie in glorious 576i RGB PAL 50Hz, from a media server on my laptop.

Guy A. Person
May 23, 2003



Necrothatcher posted:

Why would Superman even try to dodge a projectile fired at him?

Like the guy is famously known for standing there while bullets harmlessly bounce off him, as shown two minutes ago in the film.

Also why doesn’t Superman just throw Batman into the sun, the fight would be over in two seconds!

RBA Starblade
Apr 27, 2008

Going Home.



Games Idiot Court Jester


Guy A. Person posted:

Also why doesn’t Superman just throw Batman into the sun, the fight would be over in two seconds!

Do you know how long that would take? Superman doesn't have that kind of time!

KVeezy3
Aug 18, 2005

Airport Music for Black Folk


RBA Starblade posted:

I didn't, but I do think most of the thread can come up with something more clever than that to do with it. Batman is very lucky Superman is dumber than him, though both are still smarter than Titan's dumbest scientist

Batman himself infers a ‘clever’ strategy with his very first attack, as it wouldn’t take too much imagination to have those opening rounds be Kryptonite laced or whatever. But then we can posit all kind of counterpoints – maybe those Kryptonite bullets wouldn’t work as Kryptonian biology actually needs extended exposure to be effective, or what if Superman simply dodged those bullets?

My point is that this isn’t the story the film is trying to tell. When the grieving woman tells Superman that the only thing Batman understands is violence, this colors both of their approaches in the titular fight. The film makes it clear that, contrary to the persistent moral outrage generated by MoS, that Batman doesn’t think Superman is a homicidal maniac, but Batman believes that by teaching him what violence really is, that his potential threat to humanity will reveal itself. He continuously tries to convince himself to go through with it, reflected in his constant one-way dialogue with a battered Superman even until the final moment he’s got his boot to Superman’s neck with the God-killing weapon in hand. This is the psychological context of the “Martha” moment.

SuperMechagodzilla posted:

It’s more that Snyder didn’t even “make” anything. Batfleck doesn’t do a single drat thing that Batman hadn’t already done in other media. So what we get is just this absolutely unrelenting ideological critique of Batman. And it‘a not some ‘elseworld’ Evil Version Of Batman. It’s not Brightburn, because nobody gives a poo poo about Brightburn. This is Batman.

So picture, like, a Spiderman movie that’s effectively a highlight reel of every time the character’s canonically done something stupid or harmful, or pointless - or whatever - while in pursuit of ‘the good’. But not only that; it’s saying, like, “let’s do away with that stuff; we don’t need that stuff. Let’s try something new with the character.”

This is very different from the current situation, where Spiderman remains fairly static and we just give him the ability to do drone strikes. Will he eventually conclude that this great power comes with great responsibility???

Snyder’s specific treatment of Batman is a good example of his overall project to critique superhero violence in film, as typically, that violence is drawn along very neat lines to distinguish the good & bad guys. Building on what he did with Watchmen, Snyder steadfastly took a similar approach upon receiving the most iconic superheroes in the world.

A recurring theme in film is that the worship of tremendous superhero violence by children is perfectly fine, if properly censored aesthetically & politically. To wit, take the controversy over how absurd it was for the girl to want to be like Wonder Woman after she saved everybody from those terrorists. Wonder Woman’s one-woman-wrecking crew depiction isn’t too far from Steppenwolf’s dismantling of the Amazons & Atlanteans, Ares’s strike on Darkseid parallels Steppenwolf strike on Superman, and Meera siphoning blood out of Steppenwolf’s head is some horror movie imagery. And of course, Superman going in on Steppenwolf is depicted with the proper deference, culminating in the shot of him menacingly staring directly at the audience before unleashing some eye lasers.

Of course, this has led to the prominent fantasy that Snyder loves actual murder & destruction so much, that he irresponsibly allows those deviant tendencies to find expression in his Superman trilogy, and subsequently compromising the ethical content of superhero stories entirely.

KVeezy3 fucked around with this message at 16:08 on May 4, 2021

McCloud
Oct 27, 2005





"“I was very interested in consequence,” Snyder says of his plans when writing the film. “As an exercise, superhero movies are fine, but I wasn’t sure the world is better off with these giant films where hugely horrible things happen and nobody gets hurt. I don’t know how healthy that is. And, frankly, we would put a little bit of humour into our superhero movies, but I always felt it was false.”

Robot Style
Jul 5, 2009



McCloud posted:

Yes there was no reason whatsoever why Batman chose a spear to kill the Christlike figure that he also considers to be the devil (which in biblical lore is depicted as a dragon) well spotted.

Batman is the Roman centurion Longinus, who became the first Christian after piercing Christ's flesh with a spear during the crucifixion.

Ferrinus
Jun 19, 2003

i'm finding this quite easy, i guess in part because i'm a fast type but also because i have a coherent mental model of the world

Batman's strategy against Superman was actually really clever in that Batman set up like five different annoying traps that Superman could easily just take on the chin and destroy so that Superman responded to the sixth actually-dangerous one with dismissive contempt rather than due care. Presumably a Kryptonite bullet would've been less effective than gas because either the raw crystal would just shatter upon being fired, or a metal-jacketed round with a kryptonite core would move too fast to take effect and just bounce off Superman same as a regular bullet.

pospysyl
Nov 10, 2012

SO EMBARRASSING



If you want a diegetic character-driven reason for the speech, Batman explains it in the hunter speech. He wants to hunt, trap, and kill Superman like an animal, so he uses a boar spear. It's his way of demeaning Superman in death. "You're not a god. You're not even a man."

Edit: An interesting wrinkle to this is that Lois and Superman are able to redeem the weapon, turning the spear into a knightly lance.

pospysyl fucked around with this message at 16:27 on May 4, 2021

Megaman's Jockstrap
Jul 16, 2000

What a horrible thread to have a post.


Yes it's very obvious that Batman wants Superman to think that he has control of the situation when it's the exact opposite the entire time. There's even that amusing part where Batman is just beating Superman's face in and then the Kryptonite starts to wear off at Superman just stops reacting to his punches. Batman makes an exaggerated "oh poo poo I'm in trouble" face before hitting Supes with yet another Kryptonite round and throwing him down a stairwell to the exact spot he wanted him all along. He was never in the slightest amount of trouble.

MacheteZombie
Feb 4, 2007





pospysyl posted:

If you want a diegetic character-driven reason for the speech, Batman explains it in the hunter speech. He wants to hunt, trap, and kill Superman like an animal, so he uses a boar spear. It's his way of demeaning Superman in death. "You're not a god. You're not even a man."

Edit: An interesting wrinkle to this is that Lois and Superman are able to redeem the weapon, turning the spear into a knightly lance.

I dont think I've seen this connection posted before. It's dope.

Schwarzwald
Jul 27, 2004

Don't Blink


Megaman's Jockstrap posted:

Yes it's very obvious that Batman wants Superman to think that he has control of the situation when it's the exact opposite the entire time. There's even that amusing part where Batman is just beating Superman's face in and then the Kryptonite starts to wear off at Superman just stops reacting to his punches. Batman makes an exaggerated "oh poo poo I'm in trouble" face before hitting Supes with yet another Kryptonite round and throwing him down a stairwell to the exact spot he wanted him all along. He was never in the slightest amount of trouble.

I dunno. I think Batman got overconfident and was drat lucky he could get another shot off.

KVeezy3
Aug 18, 2005

Airport Music for Black Folk


Ferrinus posted:

Batman's strategy against Superman was actually really clever in that Batman set up like five different annoying traps that Superman could easily just take on the chin and destroy so that Superman responded to the sixth actually-dangerous one with dismissive contempt rather than due care. Presumably a Kryptonite bullet would've been less effective than gas because either the raw crystal would just shatter upon being fired, or a metal-jacketed round with a kryptonite core would move too fast to take effect and just bounce off Superman same as a regular bullet.

For sure. What I meant was that the dismissal of Batman's strategy as dumb because it's too elongated and weirdly personal misses how it integral that is to the narrative - dude's doing the cross walk with Superman at one point.

Shanty
Nov 7, 2005

I Love Dogs


Schwarzwald posted:

I dunno. I think Batman got overconfident and was drat lucky he could get another shot off.

This is My Batman in a nutshell. Always getting in over his head against overwhelming odds, always getting, like, conked in the head by the dumbest of The Penguin's goons, being thrown into the piranha tank and left for dead and having to madly improvise. This popular fan take of him being a superhumanly perfect detective would ruin like 90% of the action in all the cool batman stories.

Guy A. Person
May 23, 2003



Shanty posted:

This is My Batman in a nutshell. Always getting in over his head against overwhelming odds, always getting, like, conked in the head by the dumbest of The Penguin's goons, being thrown into the piranha tank and left for dead and having to madly improvise. This popular fan take of him being a superhumanly perfect detective would ruin like 90% of the action in all the cool batman stories.

This is actually a great point. The "time to prepare" meme is better stated as "after Batman gets his rear end kicked he figures out a way to win", which is like 90% of monster-of-the-week serials as well

2house2fly
Nov 14, 2012

You did a super job wrapping things up! And I'm not just saying that because I have to!

pospysyl posted:

If you want a diegetic character-driven reason for the speech, Batman explains it in the hunter speech. He wants to hunt, trap, and kill Superman like an animal, so he uses a boar spear. It's his way of demeaning Superman in death. "You're not a god. You're not even a man."

Edit: An interesting wrinkle to this is that Lois and Superman are able to redeem the weapon, turning the spear into a knightly lance.

fun related fact: "you're not a god, you're not a man" is said multiple times to Merlin in Excalibur

McCloud
Oct 27, 2005





Robot Style posted:

Batman is the Roman centurion Longinus, who became the first Christian after piercing Christ's flesh with a spear during the crucifixion.

Right. I feel people talking about the spear from a tactilol realism angle are missing the point a bit, the reason Batman has a spear isn't because bullets might miss or not work or whatever, it's because Zack wanted to convey ideas by using the the spear imagery.

For starters, like RS says, the most obvious allegory here is that the spear is the Spear of Longinus. As the story goes, Longinus was a roman soldier, and was nearly blind. During the crucifixion of christ, he stabbed Jesus with the spear, and the blood of christ healed Longinus eyesight, and at that point he realized that Jesus really was a savior, and converted to his follower. The parallels here are so obvious you'd have to be blind (heh) as a bat (heh heh) to miss it.

But there's more than that though. Batman is clad as an armored knight armed with a spear to face the devil, from Batmans point of view he's St George on a quest to slay the great evil serpent, the metaphorical devil. He's a wanna be messiah defending humanity from the devil. I'd argue the whole Knightmare sequence actually works as a look into his psyche and his fears.

The spear also works as a sort of call back to Excalibur from Excalibur (). The green sheen, Lois as lady of the lake, the well with water. Both Bruce and Clark take the role of Arthur here. Bruce uses the power of Excalibur for selfish and foolish purposes, and as a result causes calamity. Lois then acting as Lady of the lake, baptizes Superman, Superman reborn then takes the spear and in an act of love for his adopted people he kills Doomsday at the cost of his life, in a scene echoing Arthur slaying Mordred.

And finally, there's the constant references to Alexander the great, and his solution to the Gordion knot. I'm gonna let this video explain it because otherwise there's a lot of text to put in.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zAQ5gIIgsnE

Zack managed to pack all of that meaning into a single item. That is why Batman is toting around a spear, because of the visual storytelling it signifies.

Grendels Dad
Mar 5, 2011

Popular culture has passed you by.

Actually, the spear makes Batman feel like he has a big dick. That's what the spear stands for, Batman' dick.

Superman kills the mood when he brings up Batman's mom.

McCloud
Oct 27, 2005





I felt that was so obvious it didn't even warrant mentioning. It's what the knightmare scene is about even. Batman is an impotent messiah that gets chumped by the alien ubermench, he uses the spear to make up for his own physical shortcomings

McCloud
Oct 27, 2005





https://twitter.com/theSNYDERVERSE/status/1389716239413661700?s=19

KVeezy3
Aug 18, 2005

Airport Music for Black Folk


McCloud posted:

Right. I feel people talking about the spear from a tactilol realism angle are missing the point a bit, the reason Batman has a spear isn't because bullets might miss or not work or whatever, it's because Zack wanted to convey ideas by using the the spear imagery.

Of course, but the crux of it is that it works on multiple levels. Just as it's a God-killing spear of Christian myth, we can't ignore the various references to the film Excalibur after the explicit reference to it in the opening sequence: such as Batman dressing as a heroic knight, Lois occupying the position of the Lady of The Lake, and Superman pulling Doomsday closer to him after being speared. Like you can't just make a metaphorical reference in a story without it having to work on some level on the mundane level of reality.

KVeezy3 fucked around with this message at 23:58 on May 4, 2021

McCloud
Oct 27, 2005





KVeezy3 posted:

Of course, but the crux of it is that it works on multiple levels. Just as it's a God-killing spear of Christian myth, it's also a reference to Excalibur when Batman dresses as a heroic knight, Lois occupies the position of the Lady of The Lake, and when Superman pulls Doomsday closer to him after being speared. Like you can't just make a metaphorical reference in a story without it having to work on some level on the mundane level of reality.

I mean let's be honest, even if it didn't work on the mundane level of reality do you think Zack would have let that stop him?

Sodomy Hussein
Oct 9, 2005

Everything is subject to the needs of intelligence, for geniuses like me. If we actually solve problems, people won't need me and people like me, and this is a travesty without end. You have to squeeze the poor so they know their place, and you fucking commies forget that.


"Superman is Jesus" is pretty much the heaviest trod-ground on Superman stories at this point and BVS never overlooks an opportunity to lampshade Excalibur, so while dealing with a contemporary political plot it's also sort of an early reader for western culture and film. We certainly don't lack for Christ allegories in western media, but it's helped elevate Excalibur more in the minds of film-goers rather than just filmmakers. That's a cool movie.

Lots of comics and comics movies are filled with this endless derivative material, executed to different degrees of creativity. The Winter Soldier is a modernized 70's spy thriller, which naturally meant it "needed" to have Robert Redford, who we can presume now was a Hydra agent all along in those movies, which would not actually be a stretch for movies like Three Days of the Condor. Sometimes it is even regurgitating itself: there are now multiple "we deconstructed the Justice League" shows on television, which are themselves adaptations of previous work. Or you know, you could just do a Taxi Driver remake with the Joker.

Yes "everything has been done" but comics really lean on this as a guiding principle.

KVeezy3
Aug 18, 2005

Airport Music for Black Folk


Sodomy Hussein posted:

"Superman is Jesus" is pretty much the heaviest trod-ground on Superman stories at this point and BVS never overlooks an opportunity to lampshade Excalibur, so while dealing with a contemporary political plot it's also sort of an early reader for western culture and film. We certainly don't lack for Christ allegories in western media, but it's helped elevate Excalibur more in the minds of film-goers rather than just filmmakers. That's a cool movie.

Lots of comics and comics movies are filled with this endless derivative material, executed to different degrees of creativity. The Winter Soldier is a modernized 70's spy thriller, which naturally meant it "needed" to have Robert Redford, who we can presume now was a Hydra agent all along in those movies, which would not actually be a stretch for movies like Three Days of the Condor. Sometimes it is even regurgitating itself: there are now multiple "we deconstructed the Justice League" shows on television, which are themselves adaptations of previous work. Or you know, you could just do a Taxi Driver remake with the Joker.

Yes "everything has been done" but comics really lean on this as a guiding principle.

Sure, but the excess quantity of how much something has been done inevitably results in the comparative questioning of its quality. Like the MCU recently ended their whatever phase with Tony Stark as their Christ figure, so how substantial was it ultimately?

Crespolini
Mar 9, 2014



Schwarzwald posted:

I dunno. I think Batman got overconfident and was drat lucky he could get another shot off.

Ya, that looked genuine to me and was a pretty funny moment

Horizon Burning
Oct 23, 2019



Yeah Superman pretty much goes 'gently caress it' and hits Batman hard enough to break his helmet - if not for the kryptonite grenade I imagine that would've been a kill shot

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised




Megaman's Jockstrap posted:

Yes it's very obvious that Batman wants Superman to think that he has control of the situation when it's the exact opposite the entire time. There's even that amusing part where Batman is just beating Superman's face in and then the Kryptonite starts to wear off at Superman just stops reacting to his punches. Batman makes an exaggerated "oh poo poo I'm in trouble" face before hitting Supes with yet another Kryptonite round and throwing him down a stairwell to the exact spot he wanted him all along. He was never in the slightest amount of trouble.

This is pretty much the way that Batman deals with superpowered foes in other media all the drat time. Use of gadgets and traps, trickery and misdirection, all to get his enemy into position for the specialised countermeasure. And you see the same thing when during the Doomsday fight he waits for the right moment to use his remaining Kryptonite grenades to distract Doomsday and leave him open, just like how with the Justice League he always wants for the right moment to be the fly in the ointment.

Shanty
Nov 7, 2005

I Love Dogs


Ghost Leviathan posted:

This is pretty much the way that Batman deals with superpowered foes in other media all the drat time. Use of gadgets and traps, trickery and misdirection, all to get his enemy into position for the specialised countermeasure. And you see the same thing when during the Doomsday fight he waits for the right moment to use his remaining Kryptonite grenades to distract Doomsday and leave him open, just like how with the Justice League he always wants for the right moment to be the fly in the ointment.

And you get that same "oh gently caress" moment where Doomsday is about to obliterate him in the batplane. Batman's basic plans are sound enough, but in the end it always seems to come down to him scraping by on pure luck.

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised




Shanty posted:

And you get that same "oh gently caress" moment where Doomsday is about to obliterate him in the batplane. Batman's basic plans are sound enough, but in the end it always seems to come down to him scraping by on pure luck.

Also accurate. Basically the reason Batman's still alive and on the Justice League is sheer chutzpah, obsessive planning, and being entirely willing to die for the cause. (and occasionally appear to only to pop back up at just the right moment)

His whole deal is basically being crazy in exactly the right way to survive and meaningfully contribute to superpowered throwdowns.

Neo Rasa
Mar 8, 2007
Everyone should play DUKE games.



Horizon Burning posted:

Yeah Superman pretty much goes 'gently caress it' and hits Batman hard enough to break his helmet - if not for the kryptonite grenade I imagine that would've been a kill shot

I love the slow facial expression changes on both of them as Batman's punching him in the face over and over again and each punch is less effective than the last as the kryptonite wears off.

It's already been brought up a bit by some good posts in this thread, but Batman really is crazy in these scenes, the kryptonite straight up WEARS OFF and he still pushes on to the point where he gets that second shot in and can finally try to use the spear. Like others said Batman's success is owed to galaxy brain thinking to take on galactic-level threats.

Neo Rasa fucked around with this message at 13:06 on May 5, 2021

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised




People really miss the point that Batman is the villain, who is redeemed by love and mercy.

Ferrinus
Jun 19, 2003

i'm finding this quite easy, i guess in part because i'm a fast type but also because i have a coherent mental model of the world

Neo Rasa posted:

I love the slow facial expression changes on both of them as Batman's punching him in the face over and over again and each punch is less effective than the last as the kryptonite wears off.

It's already been brought up a bit by some good posts in this thread, but Batman really is crazy in these scenes, the kryptonite straight up WEARS OFF and he still pushes on to the point where he gets that second shot in and can finally try to use the spear. Like others said Batman's success is owed to galaxy brain thinking to take on galactic-level threats.

My favorite thing about this is that Superman does to Batman basically the same helmet-tearing pounce move that he used to dispatch Faora last movie.

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Neo Rasa
Mar 8, 2007
Everyone should play DUKE games.



Ghost Leviathan posted:

People really miss the point that Batman is the villain, who is redeemed by love and mercy.

I think a lot of people less missed it and more disliked that all of the things Batman does that are normally presented as super badass are portrayed with more clarity in BVS. I remember in a Q&A (? I forget the exact event) Snyder gave at a screening of BVS someone asking about this and Snyder pointing out the obvious of how Batman clearly maims and gets people killed in the comics all the time but it's okay there and people were incensed which was kind of hilarious. The same thing happened in Man of Steel, like if Man of Steel was the EXACT same movie but Superman said "you're a real pain in the NECK!" before snapping Zod's neck and it wans't shown on screen and Superman then didn't appear upset after (much like how Superman and Lois casually murder NON-super powered Zod/etc. for laughs) people would have loved it.

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