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KVeezy3 posted:Is what you've called a 'style over substance' filmmaking limited to what you perceive as plot holes? Eh, somewhat, I guess the main thing that bugs me is when there's a plot point or scene which seems to only exist to justify a cool looking shot or because that's how it was in the source material, without really having it make sense to happen in the context of the movie. Which, again, I thought Justice League did a good job of avoiding, for the most part the plot and the more impressive set pieces have a good flow and are well supported. It was mostly minor things like wondering "where are they trying to take this box? What should I be hoping happens at the end of this scene?"
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May 10, 2021 19:17
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Wingnut Ninja posted:Eh, somewhat, I guess the main thing that bugs me is when there's a plot point or scene which seems to only exist to justify a cool looking shot or because that's how it was in the source material, without really having it make sense to happen in the context of the movie. Which, again, I thought Justice League did a good job of avoiding, for the most part the plot and the more impressive set pieces have a good flow and are well supported. It was mostly minor things like wondering "where are they trying to take this box? What should I be hoping happens at the end of this scene?" But it appears your issue with this particular example, rather than the film failing to convey its narrative coherently, is that the sequence didn't have enough exposition by the Amazons. Like sure, we could have any of the Amazons remark that we need to bring the box to the army of Amazons around the corner, but there's a narrative reason why they don't explain exactly where they're going: so that the shots of the army of Amazons is that much more impactful and surprising. It's the very visual of that army, and Steppenwolf immediately dipping out, that retroactively conveys to you where the queen was taking the motherbox.
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May 10, 2021 19:34
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Wingnut Ninja posted:Eh, somewhat, I guess the main thing that bugs me is when there's a plot point or scene which seems to only exist to justify a cool looking shot or because that's how it was in the source material, without really having it make sense to happen in the context of the movie. Which, again, I thought Justice League did a good job of avoiding, for the most part the plot and the more impressive set pieces have a good flow and are well supported. It was mostly minor things like wondering "where are they trying to take this box? What should I be hoping happens at the end of this scene?" not to be like a super contrarian, but comic books are 100% designed around cool drawings first and incredibly nonsense stories second.
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May 10, 2021 19:57
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KVeezy3 posted:But it appears your issue with this particular example, rather than the film failing to convey its narrative coherently, is that the sequence didn't have enough exposition by the Amazons. I really do like how Steppenwolf is such cowardly dipshit whenever a group of people unites against him. But dang if only the Amazons crushed themselves in that temple slightly faster, like, he would have telefragged himself when he first went for the box lol.
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May 10, 2021 19:57
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Jerk McJerkface posted:not to be like a super contrarian, but comic books are 100% designed around cool drawings first and incredibly nonsense stories second. No, that's exactly my point, they're fun as long as you enjoy the spectacle and don't think too hard about it.
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May 10, 2021 20:55
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Wingnut Ninja posted:No, that's exactly my point, they're fun as long as you enjoy the spectacle and don't think too hard about it. But if you think slightly harder, the queen yelled “gather The Legions!” at the start of the scene. Then, after the containment system fails, she is obviously running away from the monster. At the end of the scene, she will have met up with The Legions. It could be that she was running towards The Legions on purpose.
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May 10, 2021 21:17
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Robot Style posted:I don't know if the timeline would make sense, but it would've been cool to see Dwayne Johnson in the flashback as part of the fight against Darkseid. Sadly it wouldn't line up. Both Captain Marvel and Black Adam are predicated on the Old Gods being, well, old. They draw on the pantheons of old, so even though Black Adam is thousands of years old, he still draws on the mythology of those who came before. Which is squarely where Darkseid dwells.
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May 10, 2021 21:25
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:But if you think slightly harder, the queen yelled “gather The Legions!” at the start of the scene. Oh drat, I'm deaf.
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May 10, 2021 21:29
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Burkion posted:Sadly it wouldn't line up. Both Captain Marvel and Black Adam are predicated on the Old Gods being, well, old. They draw on the pantheons of old, so even though Black Adam is thousands of years old, he still draws on the mythology of those who came before. Yeah, the fact that Shazam's name is an acronym of the old gods probably should have been a clue.
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May 10, 2021 21:42
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Burkion posted:Sadly it wouldn't line up. Both Captain Marvel and Black Adam are predicated on the Old Gods being, well, old. They draw on the pantheons of old, so even though Black Adam is thousands of years old, he still draws on the mythology of those who came before. Robot Style wasn't talking about Black Adam, he said it'd be cool if Dwayne Johnson took part in the flashback battle against Darkseid. And I agree.
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May 10, 2021 22:59
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the fantasy of getting together with some friends and experiencing an hour plus long absence seizure together lives on, i see someday 
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May 11, 2021 00:56
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Wingnut Ninja posted:No, that's exactly my point, they're fun as long as you enjoy the spectacle and don't think too hard about it. so close but yet it evades you again
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May 11, 2021 01:22
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josh04 posted:For fun, this is exactly how Russell T Davies says he writes - big images first, plot between the gaps. It's also how North by Northwest was written, actually. Hitchcock came up with the UN scene and the Rushmore scene and got his screenwriter to write the movie around them. Wingnut Ninja posted:No, that's exactly my point, they're fun as long as you enjoy the spectacle and don't think too hard about it. But as soon as we thought about it, we came up with the answer. In fact, if you watch the scene to the end, you get the answer. You picked two very weird examples to make this point.
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May 11, 2021 03:15
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Reminds me of a problem with D&D players so used to be railroaded and narratively constrained by bad systems and bad DMs; they've turned off their brain for so long that they don't know how to turn it back on again, and get angry and confused and blame the work for not spelling out what they're supposed to think and feel about it.
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May 11, 2021 05:16
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Wingnut Ninja posted:No, that's exactly my point, they're fun as long as you enjoy the spectacle and don't think too hard about it. Except if you think about it, it makes perfect sense. Hippolyta says "Gather the legions!" when Steppenwolf arrives. It is logical to assume that she is then taking the Motherbox toward said gathering legions. Perhaps if you hadn't "turned your brain off" you would have reached this conclusion yourself.
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May 11, 2021 06:47
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The whole sequence of events is that the Motherbox starts jukeboxing, it opens a boom tube, Steppenwolf and parademons enter, gloats about how he'll bathe in their fears, Hippolyta gives the coolest comeback in any comic book movie, fighting starts, and then Hippolyta tells one of her guards to "Gather the legions!", the guard replies they must seal the dome and the queen yells "GO". The scene ends with the whole army of amazons rushing to attack Steppenwolf. Obviously, it's easy to infer that the fallback plan was to get the box to the legion in the hopes of beating Steppenwolf with raw numbers. The only way this sequence doesn't make sense is if you missed her yelling about gathering the legions, in which case the blame is on you for not having subtitles on, I guess
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May 11, 2021 09:49
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I just listened to the Krull soundtrack again and it reminded me of the cyclops' demise and that in turn made me think of the hammer-wielding Amazons. I am reasonably sure they didn't actually get squashed by those doors but the sequence evokes the same kind of awful feeling that someone cool just died in an extraordinarily terrible way.
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May 11, 2021 09:54
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Grendels Dad posted:I just listened to the Krull soundtrack again and it reminded me of the cyclops' demise and that in turn made me think of the hammer-wielding Amazons. I am reasonably sure they didn't actually get squashed by those doors but the sequence evokes the same kind of awful feeling that someone cool just died in an extraordinarily terrible way. Even if they didn't get smooshed they drowned when the thing collapsed. Terrible either way
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May 11, 2021 10:10
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Probably a better example is the whole thing where Steppenwolf didn't realise he was on Earth until halfway through the movie. But Earth was also the planet where they left the three mother boxes, so where did he think he was before? And there aren't a lot of mother boxes, because at the end Desaad says "now that the mother boxes are destroyed..." as if those were the only ones they had, so clearly it's not a case where they've just been scattering them around the universe at random. It's not insurmountable (you can just assume Steppenwolf and Desaad don't know poo poo about mother boxes, we're talking about people who are thousands of years old and none of them like or talk to each other outside of work) but it's a confusing plot point
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May 11, 2021 11:34
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2house2fly posted:Probably a better example is the whole thing where Steppenwolf didn't realise he was on Earth until halfway through the movie. But Earth was also the planet where they left the three mother boxes, so where did he think he was before? And there aren't a lot of mother boxes, because at the end Desaad says "now that the mother boxes are destroyed..." as if those were the only ones they had, so clearly it's not a case where they've just been scattering them around the universe at random. It's not insurmountable (you can just assume Steppenwolf and Desaad don't know poo poo about mother boxes, we're talking about people who are thousands of years old and none of them like or talk to each other outside of work) but it's a confusing plot point I should watch the movie again because it owned but I got the impression that the motherboxes are a very precious resource but there's a lot more than three out there. That As far as earth itself is concerned they're the three most important items on the planet but to Darkseid and his folks they're just tools of conquest. Which makes sense because like, they do what you want, Darkseid only has one thing on his mind, so they turn a given world into a place where everyone lives only for Darkseid instead of the other uses Cyborg finds. Also IIRC Steppenwolf and Desaad aren't present on earth during the first attempt. I think Snyder mentioned at some point that the idea was that in that first battle Darkseid and his armies roll up impulsively and when the Greek gods/humans/atlanteans/amazons meet them in battle they don't just repulse them, they kick the poo poo out of them so bad that Darkseid was no longer at the top of the multi-verse despot food chain for several thousand years, Steppenwolf's betrayal happens, Darkseid literally go so hosed up he just straight up forgot because this was just one of plenty of places they didn't even know the name of that they thought they were going to steamroll. I think the movie could have been a little clearer about that, that it's not just physical distance but like a even if they remember the planet then which universe's earth did they fail to conquer level of distance.
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May 11, 2021 14:01
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It's tricky because we're talking about different - slightly unreliable - perspectives on an event involving multiple factions. Most of the exposition comes from Amazonian legend about the time Darkside attacked Earth, which is their firsthand experience. But they're obviously simplifying things: "the boxes can create an army of demons, so the aliens need these boxes to conquer a planet." The Apokalypsians(?) are all lumped together as "the enemy". But even the individual boxes have distinct 'personalities'. Victor refers to them collectively as "change machines", but that's based mainly on his dad's research into the third box. Only the first box is able to do the teleportation thing and actually bring Steppenwolf to its location, and only the second box knows about (or finds out about?) the existence of anti-life on Earth. So it's certain that only the third box can do the 'reverse entropy' trick. We could call them Space, Time, and Information. From Darkside's perspective, he already had an army of demons and these cubes were just generic superweapons. He didn't even personally own them; he just asked a distinct group called The Mystics to use them as backup for his armada. The story of Darkside getting axed by the Old Gods is well-known, but the part about the cubes is not. And The Mystics are now, apparently, extinct. So, 5000 years later, Steppenwolf is doing an Indiana Jones thing. He's investigating a signal that leads him to an old Mystic artifact, which grants him the ability to teleport. "Oh, these should make invading planets way easier". And the plot proceeds from there. SuperMechagodzilla fucked around with this message at 14:58 on May 11, 2021 |
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May 11, 2021 14:52
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:It's tricky because we're talking about different - slightly unreliable - perspectives on an event involving multiple factions. I think he only finds out there are three motherboxes on Earth after he finds the first, which supports your interpretation. Steppenwolf gets pinged by the first motherbox, finds out there are two more when the motherbox shows him a picture of the other two, internally goes "Could this be the mythical 'World that Resisted'?", then has that confirmed once he gets the second motherbox ("I have seen it with my own eyes.")
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May 11, 2021 18:10
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Stepp knew the boxes were there after Luthor facetimed him, I think. Lexcorp probably found the box before Stone snatched it But I like the idea the boom tubes originate with the box breaking it's seal
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May 11, 2021 22:58
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The line I think is harder to deal with is Darkseid’s “we will have to invade them in the old way.” If there are other mother boxes, shouldn’t he have them to use? And if there aren’t any other mother boxes, 1. Hasn’t be been doing “the old way” this whole time after losing them and 2. Shouldn’t steppenwolf put it all together as soon as he gets facetime’d by luthor? I get that Desaad and Darkseid are ignoring him, so they wouldn’t put it together, but steppenwolf realizing/not-realizing seems kind of arbitrary as presented. When I was watching the movie, I thought that every planet has its own set of 3 mother boxes that give someone dominion over that specific world. I think that would be the better setup, but snyder says thats not the case. It doesn’t really bother me though.
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May 11, 2021 23:11
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Not sure how good bringing more boxes to a fight after a crew just showed you that they can (seemingly) easily stop them would be. Also Darkseid probably just wants to fight a Kryptonian
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May 11, 2021 23:42
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Darkside is Goku
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May 12, 2021 00:03
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Darkseid seems like he'd be a lot weaker than superman which is why he corrupts him I assume. DS is introduced being owned whereas steppe is introduced doing the owning, then steppe gets chumped by superman
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May 12, 2021 03:17
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AdmiralViscen posted:The line I think is harder to deal with is Darkseid’s “we will have to invade them in the old way.” Since the line is “we will use the old ways”, it’s not necessarily that he has to. I’d also put the emphasis on the we. Now that he’s god-King of the universes, Darkside doesn’t seem to do much conquering on his own anymore. Even after learning about the rediscovery of anti-life, Darkside’s plan was to let Steppenwolf take care of all the conquest while he sat in a chair. So he doesn’t have to fly down, but he’s going to. You could also see this as a bit of poetry on his part; Darkside isn’t acting very urgently. There was seemingly nothing stopping him from personally teleporting in, except that he just didn’t want the hassle. quote:When I was watching the movie, I thought that every planet has its own set of 3 mother boxes that give someone dominion over that specific world. The boxes don’t originate on Earth; the flashback shows them being unloaded from the UFO. There really are just three, but only Steppenwolf cares about them.
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May 12, 2021 03:45
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He cares about them specifically because conquering things has become a poo poo job he's stuck with because Darkseid wants to keep him very far away for as long as possible. It's rather funny and kind of sad.
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May 12, 2021 04:59
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https://tubedubber.com/?q=J_y9Y15K5O4:9vUgcrzB9A8:0:100:0:0:1
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May 12, 2021 05:17
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AdmiralViscen posted:The line I think is harder to deal with is Darkseid’s “we will have to invade them in the old way.” If there are other mother boxes, shouldn’t he have them to use? And if there aren’t any other mother boxes, 1. Hasn’t be been doing “the old way” this whole time after losing them and 2. Shouldn’t steppenwolf put it all together as soon as he gets facetime’d by luthor? I get that Desaad and Darkseid are ignoring him, so they wouldn’t put it together, but steppenwolf realizing/not-realizing seems kind of arbitrary as presented. My take was that it's like how the Stargate tv show worked where like, with the signal from the mother boxes they could warp in pretty fast, but with the mother boxes broken apart they still know where earth AND that the anti-life equation is there so the old way is that Darkseid himself is going to head over in some ships and conquer the place instead of being able to use some combination of the boxes or the equation to instantly bend everything to his will from afar.
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May 13, 2021 18:19
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Good news: wife and I finished the Snyder cut tonight. Bad news: She excitedly asked where they're taking the story next. We got another one Snyderpilled, friends.
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May 16, 2021 04:25
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At least she doesn't have long to wait until Army of the Dead.
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May 16, 2021 05:01
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Chieves posted:Good news: wife and I finished the Snyder cut tonight. At least they archived that draft story treatment for Justice League 2 and 3.
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May 16, 2021 21:01
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Communist Thoughts posted:Darkseid seems like he'd be a lot weaker than superman which is why he corrupts him I assume. I dunno, Zeus was able to just casually zap those boxes apart, whereas superman and cyborg needed help from the flash going lightspeed. The old gods seem like they were super strong, but then wonder woman killed Ares, so I don't know know anymore
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May 16, 2021 21:44
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Terror Sweat posted:I dunno, Zeus was able to just casually zap those boxes apart, whereas superman and cyborg needed help from the flash going lightspeed. The old gods seem like they were super strong, but then wonder woman killed Ares, so I don't know know anymore Its also stated that Ares was not as powerful as he used to be- probably why he was playing the long game with humanity instead of going wrath of God on them. Darkseid is also revealed to have been the one to manipulate Ares into wiping out the Old Gods, and is the one who finished off Zeus, after obtaining the Omega Effect.
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May 16, 2021 23:18
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Burkion posted:Darkseid is also revealed to have been the one to manipulate Ares into wiping out the Old Gods, and is the one who finished off Zeus, after obtaining the Omega Effect. This I don't get because doesnt that mean Darkseid then returned to Earth at some point?
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May 17, 2021 00:48
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AccountSupervisor posted:This I don't get because doesnt that mean Darkseid then returned to Earth at some point? Not sure! This is just stuff we learned about the New Gods movie, who knows how it would have worked out in the end.
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May 17, 2021 00:51
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AccountSupervisor posted:This I don't get because doesnt that mean Darkseid then returned to Earth at some point? it happened in the spirit or psychic realm or something.
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May 17, 2021 01:51
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Although it never had a chance to addressed in the movies, I believe the New Gods like Darkseid come from a realm outside of our universe. So the battlefield could have been some kind of other realm where the Gods reside. I think this also contributes to why Darkseid may not recall where Earth is because it's one of numerous universes his forces invade. Plus comedy option, trauma or hiding his embarassment. I think Snyder said something to the effect that very few who were there are now alive in the years since Darkseid's invasion so history is lost to time.
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May 17, 2021 03:23
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