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Snowman_McK
Jan 31, 2010
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The Cameo posted:

I dunno, he works pretty well in his bit role as the rear end in a top hat cop in Jennifer’s Body

Also getting punched in Wanted.

Bullbar posted:

I strongly disagree. For me, Justice League was the least bad of the lot and still terrible.

This is one of those opinions that I knew had to be out there, but I still kind of can't believe it exists.

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Snowman_McK
Jan 31, 2010
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Bullbar posted:

I'm not saying JL is good or even average, but I absolutely did not enjoy Man of Steel or BvS at all. I'm honestly stunned to see so many people saying they're good. They're all bad imo and the only good DCEU movies are Wonder Woman and Birds of Prey.

Even if you didn't like any of the three, regarding JL as the least bad is still completely mystifying.

Snowman_McK
Jan 31, 2010
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Neurolimal posted:

If there's anything that I don't miss reading, it's bizarre audience profiling from people with no psych degree but a lot of sensitivity

E: to be less of a top-of-page shitpost: I dont buy "people hate Snyder because he's too REAL for them" takes at all, never had since they started showing up post-BVS. People loved [2/3rds of] the Nolan trilogy, Wonder Woman isn't that divergent from Snyder's tone, Joker is a very miserable movie and everyone loves it. There's clearly more going on than "Snyder hurts the sheeples feelings".

You're right. If you simplify the argument and also get it wrong, then cite other films that don't fit this new argument either, then its refuted.

Violator posted:

I don't know why, but I absolutely loved Batman taking a headshot and shrugging it off.

"aah" like he just stubbed his toe is a loving great gag.

Snowman_McK
Jan 31, 2010
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Nodosaur posted:

I searched for “New 52 Darkseid” and all the pictures have his armor as blue.


Of course not. I’m saying that the new designs are much less interesting and ultimately weaker. They’re all a sea of black and armor-like greeblies. They sucked out everything interesting in order to make a bunch of generic looking space demons.

I do like that we're at a point where a particular depiction of a space demon could be called a generic depiction of a space demon.

Snowman_McK
Jan 31, 2010
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Nodosaur posted:

What meaningfully separates these characters from the likes of Ares or Doomsday?

Wasn't actually having a go at you, but the answer to this part is that Darkseid looks quite different to this universe's versions of Doomsday and Ares. I have no idea how to give a more details answer other than simply listing all their differences.

Snowman_McK
Jan 31, 2010
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Nodosaur posted:

I'd be interested in hearing those differences, honestly. If my analogy is flawed I have no problem with it being challenged respectfully than simply being told my opinion sucks.

Look at images of them then and notice the differences. They're purely visual differences. The part that is comparable (frustratingly almost identical) is that they're shot in near shadow, lit by firelight (or things like firelight) which is what's creating the impression that they're the same.

Snowman_McK
Jan 31, 2010
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Nodosaur posted:

I'm not saying there's not actual differences. I'm saying that there's not much about them is meaningfully different. They share the same limited color pallet lacking characterful flourishes than their source material exemplified, in my opinion at least.

It feels like if they took the Power Rangers and made them all the same color. And color is important; it made everyone in Kirby's works feel distinct from each other, especially as far as the New Gods go, and I feel it's missing here.

And so this is a pointless conversation. If you can't at least specify what consitutes a meaningfull difference between three very different designs that all look really different, then we can't get anywhere. For instance, Ares armour is overlaid with chains, and barely fits him, creating a sense of someone who is constrained and contained by his armour, rather than willingly wearing. Darkseid's armour is more than skin tight, deliberately blurring where he ends and the armour begins (notice how his hood goes in slightly further than the skull immediately next to it)

Snowman_McK
Jan 31, 2010
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Nodosaur posted:

Hm. You've given me something to think about. I guess I wasn't giving these designs enough credit as far as differences.

But I still think color is important, and that DC has been sadly limited on that front re: its bad guys.

That's a fair complaint. It worked for Doomsday, having him lit with strobes, or searchlits or explosions. It jived with his design, being constantly shifting and growing. He's not physicially set, yet, and so his lighting is kind of a reflection of that. The less said about the (apparently studio mandated) Ares fight the better, though. It's a great design wasted on a very uninteresting set piece.

It reminded me a little of God of War 3's design for Hades, but bloated. Which makes sense for a god of war in 1918

Snowman_McK
Jan 31, 2010
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Gatts posted:

Whedon did Avengers. Ergo proxy victor tango foxtrot same success. They also thought they were meeting all the complaints people had. You have to think like a business person.

There's an amazing story on the Die Hard DVD that i always think about. It was in a bit talking about the many Die Hard clones. One of them, 'Sudden Death' was about Jean Claude Van Damme fighting terrorists at an Ice Hockey game. This guy on the commentary track was walking past an executive's office on a monday while he was looking at its box office numbers, which were not good. The executive yells 'how did this happen? We had a whole stadium full of hostages'

I think that sums up the relationship between money and art better than any other thought or piece of writing I've ever encountered.

The Cameo posted:

Jon Peters. Joel Silver is a guy who tends to go to bat for his creatives, sometimes to the detriment of the movie. Jon Peters is the guy who basically got to the top of Hollywood through dumb luck and nearly destroyed a studio before just loving off and counting the free money he would get from Batman movies being made.

Joel Silver is, no poo poo, the reason we have the Matrix movies. He actually fought for the Wachowski's to have the control over the films that they did.

Snowman_McK
Jan 31, 2010
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Firstborn posted:

I also started drugs at a young age

I just watched the matrix at a young age.

Snowman_McK
Jan 31, 2010
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2house2fly posted:

I watched Ninja Scroll in my early teens because I was told it had sex scenes in it. It went way better than when I later watched Legend Of The Overfiend because I was told it had sex scenes in it.

yeah, the sex scenes in legend of the overfiend kind of make you wish for some horrifying violence to get the taste out of your mouth. Then violence comes along and doesn't get the taste of your mouth at all and you just wish you were watching something else.

Snowman_McK
Jan 31, 2010
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Burkion posted:

Legend of overfiend benefits from being made before the internet because at that point it wasbasically the only game in town for hosed up porn poo poo from Japan

I have no idea how today's youth would even react to it

I made a point of watching the uncut version at one point. See, usually, when things get a censored release, they get a few seconds, maybe a few minutes cut. The uncut version is just clearer views of wounds or slightly longer shots of a violent act. Maybe some boobs that aren't in shadow or an unmuffled swear word. The censored version of Legend of the Overfiend was forty minutes shorter. Whole plot lines and scenes were cut out because there was no way to cut around the violent sex and sexual violence and keep the scene coherent.

At the same time, there's some amazing craft to those horrifying scenes. You look at these incredibly hosed vagina and tentacle monsters and realise the designs must have been really hard to draw and a loving herculean task to animate. I saw an interview with one of the directors or something, and he was incredibly proud of how they'd pioneered using tentacles instead of cocks. It's one of the best and funniest interviews of anyone that I've ever seen.

Snowman_McK
Jan 31, 2010
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Detective No. 27 posted:

My biggest idiot post in CineD was me saying that Detective Pikachu was going to do as well or better than Endgame, lmao.

It's a better film so that's not unfair.

Snowman_McK
Jan 31, 2010
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Julius CSAR posted:

What if it was Jon Stewart GL but played John Stewart in blackface, but then again Geoff Johns isn’t around anymore so it probably won’t happen


I was going to say that this is almost definitely scribbled on a notepad somewhere in Geoff Johns' desk.

Snowman_McK
Jan 31, 2010
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What is this? Is it about my cube?

Snowman_McK
Jan 31, 2010
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It's always struck me as an extremely awkward line. I like that Batman's bat voice is useless for conversation. It's only really good for snarling one liners. It totally fits.

Snowman_McK
Jan 31, 2010
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pospysyl posted:

I absolutely love Eisenberg's Luthor. It's impressive how he and Affleck seriously commit to their weird, inaccessible characters.

As another reason films are wasted on film twitter, the consensus is that they 'just tried to make him the joker' and I can't tell which character they misunderstood worse.

Snowman_McK
Jan 31, 2010
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RBA Starblade posted:

I recall that being a lot of my friends' issue with him and I assure you they don't know or care about "film Twitter"

Okay. What would you like me to do with this information?

Actually, maybe you can tell us, which character did they misunderstand worse?

Snowman_McK fucked around with this message at 00:11 on Mar 3, 2021

Snowman_McK
Jan 31, 2010
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John Wick of Dogs posted:

If they're talking about Heath Ledger I can see what they mean, the second half of Dark Knight is all him conducting insane social experiments to prove a point.

The primary difference is that Ledger is repeatedly shown to be right, while Lex is definitively wrong.

Snowman_McK
Jan 31, 2010
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:

Well Ledger's Joker is good at sowing chaos, but it turns out that his theories on people's innate badness are totally wrong.

Not really. More of his plans worked than didn't and the only reason the last one didn't was because of one guy who didn't pull a trigger that he absolutely thought should be pulled. He thought it should happen, but didn't want to be the one to do it. Tiny Lister's character was the only one on screen who outright rejected the proposal.

Snowman_McK
Jan 31, 2010
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:

I think everyone in the other ferry did too? I don't remember very well, sorry. It's been a long time.

They took a vote and a majority of people were fine with the idea of the trigger being pulled.

Snowman_McK
Jan 31, 2010
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teagone posted:

This would be my guess, yeah. I remember Affleck's solo Batman film was meant to explore Deathstroke brutally dismantling Bruce's life from the inside out.

So like...Hush, but good maybe. We were also supposed to get a Deathstroke film done by the Raid guys.

Megaman's Jockstrap posted:

I remember Man of Steel trailer 3 and the extreme "trailer-ability" of Snyder's style. That was cool.

Also LMAO at the idea of Dark Knight Rises being the "schlocky" one.

Yeah, it's definitely Begins that's the closest to schlock of the three. By TDKR he's got that Tenet effect of his action scenes looking like the behind the scenes B-Roll of his action scenes, or a really dull documentary. I know a lot of people had understandable problems with how he shot the fights in Begins, but at least it felt like there was an idea behind it. By Rises it's just 'aim the camera from about 20 feet back and do the choreography'

Megaman's Jockstrap posted:

If anyone remembers they actually did fan screenings about 2 - 3 days before the "real" release date of BvS. Every single DC site was like "wow what a flick!" for a couple of days, there was zero "this is a disaster" stuff. Then the critical consensus dropped and that was it.

I wish there was a way to sort Reddit subforums by day because the DCEU one on the leadup to BvS would be extremely interesting. It's like it gets hit by a bomb. Goes from people losing their minds with hype to see the movie (and a the few who saw it earlier crowing about it) to the atmosphere of a tragic wake in like, 5 hours.

It's amazing how much of a film's reception is memetic. There was a weird thing I saw years ago in a discussion about whether Bourne Identity or Supremacy were better. About ten people in a row, in the space of twenty minutes or so, all gave the answer 'Supremacy is better because there's a mystery, whereas in Identity you're told the answer ten minutes in.' I don't think it was any kind of conspiracy or anything, but god it was weird to see the exact same answer from a bunch of people who, most likely, had never interacted before then.

Snowman_McK
Jan 31, 2010
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pospysyl posted:

He's also a lot of fun in Free Fire. Guy's got a great voice.

He's a pretty good broken down sheriff in Godless, too. and a good villain in Sleepless.

He's like if Joel McKinnon had range.

VAGENDA OF MANOCIDE posted:

It's a cool idea, but it's like that Starkiller sequence from TFA so you know we'd never hear the end of it from nerds.

Ignoring nerds is always the correct response.

Snowman_McK
Jan 31, 2010
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Roth posted:

I hope some parents tried to put it on, left, and then Justice League started with the Batman saying "Aw gently caress, we're boned guys" in the first five seconds

"Ah, gently caress, Cyborg got shot directly in the penis. It's all hosed up now. poo poo the gently caress, mumble"

Snowman_McK
Jan 31, 2010
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Horizon Burning posted:

the stuff about WB having a bit of an axe to grind against ZSJL makes me think back to a lot of stuff J Michael Straczynski said about how WB treated Babylon 5, which was basically treating it terribly, blaming the show for everything they could, and lying about several important things (like a warehouse fire destroyed all the original CGI material, which was why they couldn't remasted it - but it didn't)

That last one is especially funny seeing as Youtube is filled with fan made recreations of the CGI that, thanks to the march of technology, look a shitload better than the original.

Snowman_McK
Jan 31, 2010
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Horizon Burning posted:

they're fan-made, sure, but they're actually the original assets and files that WB had said were lost. someone leaked them to the guy who's recreating them.

some of them would be, I'm sure. There are others I'm pretty sure are models built from scratch. Either way, it's an utterly ridiculous claim for WB to make.

Snowman_McK
Jan 31, 2010
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I remembered there being stories of cavalry officers eagerly promoting stories of tanks falling apart during WW1 to escape this obvious sign of their own clear redundancy. When you think of someone doing that, in an actual war, a war that you may not win otherwise, suddenly it doesn't seem crazy for a film exec to do something very stupid just to avoid admitting that they were very wrong about a film.

Snowman_McK
Jan 31, 2010
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Schwarzwald posted:

It's kind of refreshing to have a villain just be, "I want to rule everything, gently caress you."

It's a really tricky villain to write well, the kind that's simply a dominant force that wants to rule for its own sake. We struggle to even understand real people like that, and tend to work hard to humanise them. And so our fictional supervillains tend to get boiled down too. Even in Warhammer 40k, a place full of characters that could be that kind of force, they tend to reduce the motivations of their most villainous villains to blends of daddy issues, insecurity and personal revenge. Just writing someone that wants to rule, and will, because he can, who won't make concessions or negotiate or back down because they do not have to and never have before, is hard. Because putting yourself in those shoes is so far beyond the normal human viewpoint.

Snowman_McK
Jan 31, 2010
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Burkion posted:

Like wanting Wonder Woman for his queen (including being fully willing and ready to mind control her into full obedience

I like this example because you can imagine how it would play out compared to most other villains. With most, you would get the scene where she says 'I'll never really love you' and that would bother the villain. They would do their best to actually win her over and convince her. This would give the other heroes time, distracting the villain, and also probably give Wonder Woman an opening. Darkseid wouldn't give a poo poo. Compelled obediance and love are still obediance and love to him.

Snowman_McK
Jan 31, 2010
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Bootleg Trunks posted:

Isthat Karl Urban as the lightning guy

No, that's some obscenely jacked person. There was a pic of them somewhere in this thread, no idea where. They are insanely jacked even by the standards of Zack Snyder cast members alongside an also very jacked lady.

Snowman_McK
Jan 31, 2010
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Jimbot posted:

Cutting the romantic subplot means cutting the character entirely. Yes.

I wish I got into this industry as there seems to be no standards and words can mean anything!

The quote even says he was working on a scene with her when they visited him. FFS.

Gonna go lift weights now, snyder bros.

Snowman_McK
Jan 31, 2010
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:

I believe he was discussing Man of Steel, as in Man of Steel was being compared to the Nolan trilogy as well as Avengers.

I do remember a lot of drive by shitposts when it came out (not here) saying that MoS's problem is that it's too realistic, which was what they'd also decided was the problem with Nolan's films, and so copy pasted it. I think it was more an example of people not liking something, but not being able to clearly enunciate why (see also almost every 'it's like a video game' complaint)

2house2fly posted:

The Martha bit is probably where BvS stops challenging you because it's Batman suddenly realising "I shouldn't be fighting this guy". After that it's pretty much how you might expect a superhero movie climax to go- villain unleashes Ultimate Villain, big fight with Ultimate Villain, at the end Superman sacrifices himself in a big pyrotechnic display, sequel tease, the end. They even gave Superman his little kiss-curl at the end!

It's also an example of the heroes fighting each other that makes it explicitly clear that one guy is absolutely in the wrong and has turned into a complete monster. there's a tendency, when the good guys fight each other, to make it clear that it's just a misunderstanding, or a moment of anger. It's a fan service fight (who would win? hero A or B?) and so it's a product of the moment, rather than the story. There's nothing inherently wrong with that, by the way. BvS is very explicitly showing Batman as someone who has turned into a complete loving psychopath willing to lay out a massive trap quite specifically to kill someone. It's not, for instance, Civil War's, or Fast and the Furious 4's angle, which is that one friend is simply overwhelmed by emotion in the moment. Batman has very specifically and premeditatively made the decision to kill superman. I'd argue that the specifics of the scene are pretty challenging. One of the heroes is unambiguously the villain and has been for a while.

CelticPredator posted:

I would say David Lynch makes challenging films and often people are confused

It happens.

Absolutely. In fact, part of making anything that might be the slightest bit challenging is risking that people are going to misunderstand it. In fact it's almost guaranteed. I mean, without even accounting for the Baron Biffords of the world (i miss that guy, weirdly) professional critics straight up missed the point of Starship Troopers, which ends with Doogie Hauser dressed as a loving psychic gestapo officer.

Zaphod42 posted:

I believe it, sorry I just haven't heard about it anywhere, even though I read a lot of movie sites. I didn't mean it as implying a conspiracy or anything, y'all are way too serious about this. I was just explaining why I didn't know about it, you're taking it the wrong way.

You know, if one person takes what you say the wrong way, that's on them, if everybody takes what you say the wrong way...

Snowman_McK
Jan 31, 2010
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Zaphod42 posted:

But if you really want that to be hammered home that Batman was in the wrong

Hammered in more than Batman building an elaborate murder trap and being stopped in the middle of stabbing a man he's rendered defenceless to death? Hammered in more than that? Hammered in more than Batman repenting at the grave of the man he failed and saying 'we failed him' Hammered in more than Batman's closest confidant telling him he is wrong repeatedly. It is not subtle. The film absolutely hammers it home.

Zaphod42 posted:

but I need to feel his fundamental beliefs have changed in order to make that work
You mean like if he had a monologue voice over about how wrong he and his beliefs were, for instance, which he does.

Zaphod42 posted:

but you also have to agree this thread clearly reps a certain side and is a bit biased

In this case, the side the thread is biased towards is 'reality'

There's a large amount of easily obtainable information that you didn't know. You posted in ignorance, then got defensive and called everyone else creepy when you were wrong.

Snowman_McK
Jan 31, 2010
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Zaphod42 posted:

No, and its not the point of that story nor what I was saying. Did you not get my point?

Are you arguing that Rorschach did go through a character arc... but just never got a chance to show it? That's not really how characters work?

Or are you saying that by dying he was deciding not to be hypocritical? That's not really supported either.

Either way, the phrase "i'll look down and say, no" is the same attitude as the end. He isn't redeemed or changed. That's the point.

Change isn't the only way for characters to have an arc. In fact, none of the characters really have an arc by that definition and that's sort of the point. Ozymandias is an arrogant prick at the beginning and end. Dryberg and Laurie ultimately have no real convictions at the beginning and end. Manhattan sort of has one, where he's on his way to disconnection from humanity, seems to reconnect, then fucks off. the story just takes them to the natural end that arises from their character flaws: Ozymandias committing mass murder and thinking he's right, Laurie and Dan kind of just accepting that and Rorschach actually sticking to his guns.

Assuming that a character arc requires some change of beliefs is a bit prescriptivist.

Snowman_McK
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Zaphod42 posted:

Yeah exactly.

And if you want to explore the idea of the horrors of utilitarianism given prescience, there's always Dune (Really more in Messiah, Children, God Emperor, but yeah)


Well, what would you define a character arc as then? Ultimately we're getting into an argument of semantics if we aren't careful here. What really matters is the concepts more than the words.

But its possible we're just on an entirely different page on what we're meaning here so good to be clear.

A plot arc can certainly not require characters to change, but I feel like a character arc does. Manhattan does have an arc in that we experience (in the comics especially non-chronologically) how he goes from a normal person to a god, and how his relationships fall apart and he fucks off to Mars. By the end he basically doesn't care about humans. That's change I think. I agree most of the characters don't change, and like I said before a good story (with plot arcs) can still have static characters. I would say Dan does grow a bit, he realizes that he's impotent because his life is boring and he misses being a caped hero (even if he was bad at it), Silk Spectre learns about her father and spends time with Dan instead of Manhattan, they change a bit. But definitely Rorschach is a constant.

You're largely describing changes in their circumstances, not their characters. If you take how they react to Ozy's plan as the indication of whether they have arcs, none of them have arcs, since, despite their journeys through the story, they are still the fundamentally flawed people they were at the beginning. The ending reveals those flaws as permanent, immutable.

Snowman_McK
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Zaphod42 posted:

Why does that have to be the thing that defines it?

Because that's the scene that you chose to demonstrate that Rorschach doesn't have an arc. I'm very much going off your rules.

Snowman_McK
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Zaphod42 posted:

One scene defining one character doesn't mean that's the only scene that could define any character, that doesn't follow at all. That's some massive oversimplification.

That's some "a baseball is an example of a ball, so all balls are baseballs" logic right there. That's not a fair logical interpretation of what I said.

I'm going to ask you again, "What is a character arc if not personal growth or change?"

It kind of follows when it's the story's penultimate scene and, in every case, it's entirely in tune with who they were at the beginning of the story too.

I actually answered that somewhere above, but just in case i forgot, it could also be a change in circumstances revealing who they always were.

Snowman_McK
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Darko posted:

I'd argue he doesn't have an arc outside of his backstory, which is also his issue since he's the only one that can't evolve. That's why he is the one that dies, outside of Comedian, which is just a point to show Ozy is flawed.

I would argue that Laurie and Dan also don't evolve. They're both comfortable and complacent at the lovely state of the world at the beginning, and in the end they find a way to be at peace with yet more awfulness. It works as a meta commentary on the nature of comic books as well, that no matter what shenanigans a character might go through in a story, they're forbidden from fundamentally changing.

Snowman_McK
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Zaphod42 posted:

Yeah but like I already said above, it could take place earlier in a story. What if they weren't present? What if the part of their character that changed wouldn't affect how they view Ozy, but themselves or the world (see: Dan, Silk) What if the story has multiple plots or themes? It depends.

In all those hypothetical situations, you're right, it wouldn't work. However, in Watchmen, it does work, though.

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Snowman_McK
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Mantis42 posted:

They arguably become much worst people but negative growth is still an arc.

e: Basically the Ozymandias scene does represent the fulfillment of their arcs, in that it they actively choose to buy into the ideology of the superhero by supporting Veidt, whereas at the beginning of the story they're internally conflicted over their superhero nature.

i don't think they do buy specifically into the ideology of the superhero, I think they accept the idea that 'someone else will sort it out' which is, i guess, an aspect of the superhero. It's just that they're not heroes themselves anymore and accept this. It parallel where they are at the beginning, both having settled into supporting roles in life.

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