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Neurolimal
Nov 3, 2012


Jimbot posted:

WE LIVE IN A SOCIETY

I've been mostly agnostic about Snyder, but months of hype leading up to this line is genuinely hilarious

Maybe it's a Raimi-Venom thing where he really doesnt give a poo poo about the Joker

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Neurolimal
Nov 3, 2012


If there's anything that I don't miss reading, it's bizarre audience profiling from people with no psych degree but a lot of sensitivity

E: to be less of a top-of-page shitpost: I dont buy "people hate Snyder because he's too REAL for them" takes at all, never had since they started showing up post-BVS. People loved [2/3rds of] the Nolan trilogy, Wonder Woman isn't that divergent from Snyder's tone, Joker is a very miserable movie and everyone loves it. There's clearly more going on than "Snyder hurts the sheeples feelings".

Neurolimal fucked around with this message at 23:25 on Feb 14, 2021

Neurolimal
Nov 3, 2012


IMO Superman and Batman are absolutely power fantasies, and no amount of angst is really going to change that, it's just inherent to the concept and will bleed into any work.

ImpAtom posted:

Batman as a member of the Justice League these days is something I find a lot easier to enjoy than Batman as a vigilante crime fighter.

I honestly feel the exact opposite but for similar reasons. "Batman but now he just punches galactic space-dictators and has lunch with a martian" feels more problematic to me, because it's papering over the problematic facts of the character; that he's a mentally ill misanthrope that has decided he wants to hurt people in his favorite leather, and that's just accepted because he has the superpower "too rich to stop".

The stories that embrace the concept of "billionaire dresses up and maims poor people and mentally ill/physically deformed villains" feel more honest and less problematic to me, because instead of ignoring the problems with the character, it makes them the entire point.

Neurolimal
Nov 3, 2012


Tuxedo Catfish posted:

it's also probably one of the key vectors of the Joss Whedonification of superhero media. that show wants to be Buffy the Vampire Slayer so goddamn bad you can taste it

I'm a sucker for Angel, but the Whedon shows produced such an incredible tide of 100% unwatchable copycat garbage. Charmed is probably worse than Smallville, but not by much.

E: as someone not particularly allied to a side, I find the Snyder take on the new gods very boring aesthetically. They dont need to be faithful to the original designs, but I dont particularly care for this iteration of Steppenwolf and Darkseid.

Neurolimal fucked around with this message at 00:24 on Feb 16, 2021

Neurolimal
Nov 3, 2012


JonathonSpectre posted:

Let's just take a moment to remember the unforgettable opening scene of Joss Whedon's Justice League in all this ridiculous copycat "looks like a graphics card lol" exact-same-gag poo poo going on at the moment.

Its a pretty good gag tbf

Neurolimal fucked around with this message at 15:58 on Feb 16, 2021

Neurolimal
Nov 3, 2012


I think a Whedon Justice League would have been perfectly servicable had it been his movie from the start; it wouldn't have been pretty, the plot would be incredibly throwaway, but it'd have enough cute character moments to make it entirely watchable. What you'd expect from a TV writer/director basically.

Instead we got a weird mutant child between two directors with extremely discordant styles & focus. Good job WB.

Neurolimal
Nov 3, 2012


Age of Ultron made buckets of money and was positively received for the most part, which makes that chip on his shoulder all the more weird. You'd think breaking 1 billion on two different movies as a middling TV director would soothe his ego.

Neurolimal
Nov 3, 2012


Finally, a comic movie for gamers.

Neurolimal
Nov 3, 2012


We thought it was going to be Martian Manhunter, turns out it's the Arbiter.

Neurolimal
Nov 3, 2012


EASTER EGG: The Justice League all possess humanoid shapes similar to the titular "Atlas" of "Atlas Shrugged", whos author Zack Snyder wants to give big smooches on the lips

Neurolimal
Nov 3, 2012


I dont think anyone feels the need to defend the theatrical cut because's it's so obviously an unloved mutant. Whedon evidently didnt care much about finishing someone else's vision and it shows in the release cut when he's just recycling jokes & scenes from Last Movie That Worked.

Like, if the entire thing had been scrapped right down to concept & planning and it was thoroughly Whedon's movie, you'd probably see more fan bleedover interested in defending it, however that movie would turn out. As-is though? It's not Snyder's baby, it's not Whedon's baby, it's not WB's baby, it's a distasteful soup.

Neurolimal
Nov 3, 2012



The hints were there all along...

Neurolimal
Nov 3, 2012


Avengers is alright, in-my-opinion, when you look at it for what it is; a cheap TV writer is inexplicably given 220 million dollars to bash his favorite action figures together, and it somehow appeals to people excited to see their favorite toys talk to each other. It's almost pure if you know nothing about Whedon BTS. He has no sense of environmental storytelling or cinematography (he's from low budget urban-horror TV, environments in those are usually a graveyard, a room, and a fog machine!), but he's got an idea of how his cartoons would talk to each other like. It's no triumph of cinema, it's a TV show finale given a staggering budget.

Avengers: Endgame is just a terrible mess, and that's speaking as someone who likes a good few of the individual marvel movies. I can't even give the lenience of "yeah, you gave the movie to a shlock writer, of course it looks lousy" because the Russo brothers have certainly done better than that muddy mess.

I can see a lot of Marvel movies standing the test of time, I can see Avengers 1 being revisited and I have a soft spot for Age of Ultron. I cannot fathom anyone returning to Endgame outside a theater setting, enduring the ugly sights and ugly sounds and meaningless plots on their own. For all the (entirely valid) problems a lot of people have with Snyder's films, at least they're a treat to look at.

Neurolimal
Nov 3, 2012


Io9 has more than one writer fwiw

Neurolimal
Nov 3, 2012


VAGENDA OF MANOCIDE posted:

Yes and if they have one writer that super likes Age of Ultron and one writer that super likes JWJL, that just says that they have more than one person with awful taste.

Point was more that the reviewers who liked Ultron, didnt like Justice League '17, and dont care (?) for Justice League '21 are different people, so its weird to spin a "their opinion is moot" connection between them

Neurolimal
Nov 3, 2012


Well there was also "Messing Up Age of Ultron Helped Joss Whedon Mess Up Justice League, which both places the blame for the movie on Whedon, and includes this crack:

quote:

Joss Whedon seeing female characters as largely interchangeable and reducing them easily to funbag airbags? Color me and many, many women of the Whedonverse shocked.

IDK, feel like this is just that classic DC fan sensitivity at play.

Neurolimal
Nov 3, 2012


Asteroid Alert posted:

All the critic talk aside, how have people around you reacted to this movie coming out?

In one of the communities I frequent, there's some interest. The people there aren't Snyder fanboys, but they are curious. These people are also put off by the 4 hour runtime.

Maybe releasing as a series would've been better for the bingewatching generation? Just drop it all in one go, the "4 HOURS OMG!" talk would be just a footnote.

I think the fact that it was announced as a miniseries then as one movie has helped temper length criticisms, but I certainly believe it would have been better in chunks than as a four hour cape movie.

Neurolimal
Nov 3, 2012


Aidan_702 posted:

That's ludicrous, from the Torygraphy of all places. ooh I can't wait

Just more proof that Snyder is an ayn rand fanboy, a true child of the right

Neurolimal
Nov 3, 2012


I'm pretty sure at this current point the only people doing user reviews for The 4 Years Later Four Hour Long Justice League Cut are people who have been actively looking forward to it.

User reviews might see a dip depending on the eventual RLM review? If they review it?

Neurolimal
Nov 3, 2012


4000 Dollar Suit posted:

I didn't hate this Leto joker, but it's also really hard to get on his side after hearing about the used condom thing during Suicide Squad.

I'd pick the cult thing before the condom, though that's also pretty skeevy.

Movie looks good, looking forward to eventually watching it in a way that does not indirectly award casting Gal Gadot or Leto. Since Whedon's shoots are still being discussed I had a question: how many movies have had a completely different director reshoot/regrade/cut most of an original director's work, and been regarded as good? Genuinely curious because I dont have encyclopedic knowledge of film, but it seems like even when you're not pitting two directors as diametrically opposed as Snyder & Whedon against each other, it's still a tall ask to have a new person complete the first guy's artistic vision.

Neurolimal
Nov 3, 2012


Basebf555 posted:

There have been movies that turned out good after being reshot but the ones I know of weren't with a brand new director. Like Back to the Future, where they filmed something like half the movie with a different lead actor and then fired him and hired Michael J. Fox. Or Tarkovsky's Stalker, where all the film got exposed so he had to go back and reshoot everything.

Exorcist 3 also had its ending reshot (still Blatty) to be more Exorcist-y, and that has its fans (I think the exorcism scene is great on its own, and maybe as a surprise after the rest of the muted film, but the "he just shoots him" end fits better with the grounded drama of the film).

But yeah, I cant think of any "we brought in a new guy to finish/fix the film, and the result was good!" examples off the top of my head. Whedon is a lovely person and he clearly didn't care about even trying to match Snyder (though I assume that's why the suits brought him in), but his work was cut out for him either way.

Neurolimal
Nov 3, 2012


multijoe posted:

He really is cultivating a cult leader aesthetic though so I'm gonna have to sit on the fence on this one

I dont think anyone should be harangued for not giving someone involved in Hollywood the benefit of the doubt wrt being a sexpest and/or crazy rear end in a top hat, personally. Seems like a bet that pays out often.

Neurolimal
Nov 3, 2012


Aidan_702 posted:

Iím not American is the National Review a fash site or am I mixing it up it with something else

Yes, but Armond White specifically is just a notorious film troll

Neurolimal
Nov 3, 2012


Augus posted:

stuff like the Anti-Life Equation is so weird and cool conceptually and it's great seeing a movie where that isn't tossed aside for being "too comic booky" like Thanos wanting to marry Death.

The Thanos we got was alright, honestly pretty high on the marvel movie villains tier list (which is a very low bar, even speaking as someone who likes Marvel movies), but "loves death, as in the actual manifestation of death, all his genocide attempts are galactic dictator mixtapes for Death" is such a great concept and it was supremely disappointing to not see it realized on film.

Neurolimal
Nov 3, 2012


Representing the stock market as a bear and a bull fighting is pretty funny, not gonna lie.

Neurolimal
Nov 3, 2012


abraham linksys posted:

feel like this whole scene is the worst part of both cuts, the more I think about it. it's cool Wonder Woman gets to do some action things but just have her stop a violent art heist or some poo poo instead of "some guys want to suicide bomb a group of kids but also they put the bomb on a timer for some reason"

Gal Gadot heroically stopping suicide bombing terrorists also rubs me weird. At least they're white, white collar nihilist-terrorists.

Neurolimal
Nov 3, 2012


Equeen posted:

listening to junkie xl's jl soundtrack right now, and i can feel it purify my soul.

gently caress danny elfman's half-assed poo poo lmao

[Ancient Lamentation Music intensifies]

Neurolimal
Nov 3, 2012


The Saddest Rhino posted:

What's the story behind Geoff John's by the way because I heard he was key to a lot of dumb dceu decisions?

Tedious loser, brought back the most boring iterations of Flash and Green Lantern in the comics, I've yet to hear an anecdote of him positively contributing to a movie.

Most Flash appearances on TV and film (including Zack Snyder's Justice League) just use Wally West and call him Barry Allen, but Hal Jordan's harder to pass as John Stewart or Kyle Rayner.

Neurolimal fucked around with this message at 08:31 on Mar 20, 2021

Neurolimal
Nov 3, 2012


Gal Gadot's pretty bad, like as an actress & person. She's best used quietly, and even then I still think they could have got someone bulkier.

Neurolimal
Nov 3, 2012


Idk about cutting your favorite scene, but I do think there's truth in having skepticism towards scenes you're too attached to. Like was mentioned about Lucas' rough draft:

Robot Style posted:

Lucas filmed the fourth draft of the script, and had been developing the characters and the world for years at that point, so there was probably a bunch of poo poo he just took for granted about the movie, while the editors came at it from the perspective of "what is a star war" and helped to put it together in a way that the audience would understand.

There are things you might take for granted and paper over because you're too Into the scene, and you're mentally filling in the gaps.

You don't really need Whedon to tell you this, though. And he can afford to cut scenes because all his scenes are incredibly unimpressive TV-tier shots.

Neurolimal
Nov 3, 2012


The Saddest Rhino posted:

It was whedon who famously really wanted to helm a wonder woman movie, right? Because it turns out all he wanted to do with her was guys falling on her boobs or confessing she's very gorgeous and hot, and then film her butt several times?

Unless I'm mistaken his script is available, and it's basically just Buffy but with more "I will murder you, whore"

That kind of 90's dated approach, where mainstream feminism is having the bad guy say really lovely things, then the conventionally attractive lady does bicycle kicks.

Neurolimal
Nov 3, 2012


Darkseid's pretty interesting at times in the comics. I liked the take (is it still canon? DC reboots and resets and just gives up on canon so often) where he was actually one of the better people on Apokalips but then his mom killed his wife and that's why he's a miserable rear end in a top hat. Think I got that right.

Neurolimal
Nov 3, 2012


Torquemada posted:

If they were level in power, how would any of the heroes possibly be a threat to Darkseid?

Honestly speaks to how hilariously unbalanced the Justice League are (in terms of "usefulness in a fight) in general, which is an issue beyond Snyder's control.

You have one whos power is money, one who has a truth lasso and sword, and one who is very good at swimming. Then you have the robot, the god, and the guy who runs so fast he breaks physics.

Neurolimal
Nov 3, 2012


Chairman Capone posted:

The idea of the Riddler solving the Anti-Life Equation and then killing himself is grimdark to parody-levels of ridiculousness, which is also why I love that concept.

It's dark but like, what reaction to discovering objective proof that life is hopeless would be appropriate

Neurolimal
Nov 3, 2012


https://twitter.com/APZonerunner/status/1372929519724662788?s=20

Teehee

Anyways it's ok to be emotional about art, even if it's got corporate ties. Being snobby about people getting misty over a Marvel movie because they aren't very pretty is about as tedious as the people who kramer into conversations to talk about how Snyder is a libertarian (hes clearly a fundie ok)

It's not like corporate media isn't capable of hiring artists versed in pain and loss.

Neurolimal
Nov 3, 2012


Augus posted:

I teared up when blue daddy died and I am not ashamed to admit this

Gunn has gotten pretty good at making people feel sad for Michael Rooker

Neurolimal
Nov 3, 2012


Megaman's Jockstrap posted:

I'm not going to engage with you further because this is a dumb RLM meme that just got posted yesterday and became "common knowledge" in about 10 minutes. If you're going to let 3 mediocre white guys give your opinions to you at least pick a better trio.

For the record, this was a like, a 20 second off-the-cuff mention in an hour-ten long video largely praising the film in comparison to the Whedon cut.

That said, I do feel like there is a theme of aloof gods & heroes among faceless/helpless people in DC works, which a lot of great writers & artists have leaned into for some of the label's best stories. Kingdom Come (and Alex Ross art in general) springs to mind, personally. I think Snyder's done a good job capturing that in his trilogy, which might color Jay Bauman's view of Zack Snyder, because I'm fairly sure he has not picked up a single comic book.

It's not a bad thing, but there's definitely people who prefer more human & relatable superheroes (see: how Marvel started eating DC's lunch in the first place with Sticky Teen and Radiated Family) who probably aren't interested in how dour and serious the DCCU can be. And it seems like Zack Snyder agreed or was sympathetic to their complaints, seeing as Justice League has slightly more levity, and is slightly more approachable.

Sodomy Hussein posted:

I think people hate Snyder fandom more than they hate Snyder, because the fandom tends to look down its nose at people who like similar movies, as if watching Zack Snyder movies makes them intelligentsia.

Snyder fans can be pretty obnoxious. I was reading CineD around the time of BvS' release, and the Movie Fight and 'NOT MY SUPERMAN' memes were extraordinarily tedious and less than a quarter as clever or compelling as the posters thought they were being. Even now, vindicated by the arrival of the Snyder DC Movie Everyone Thinks Is Good, there's a lot of salty dorks.

I think Snyder's pretty easy to misunderstand as well. I dont think you can really make 300 and Sucker Punch (and express interest in a Fountainhead film), on top of coming from a Christian Scientist family, and be surprised that some people think you're a conservative wingnut. Hell, there are people who take Verhoeven films at face value.

Luckily, in the wake of Justice League underperforming, the revelations of how much Snyder was hosed with, Whedon's fall-from-grace, and his extreme enthusiasm over getting to finish his movie, he's taken up more of an underdog role that makes it easier for people to root for his success.....

Timeless Appeal posted:

I mean not much of a surprise as Snyder openly supported Biden.

Man, he sure does have a habit of gravitating towards sex pests and warmongers though :v:

Neurolimal
Nov 3, 2012


RBA Starblade posted:

Wasn't the prototypical Bernie Bro a cspammer who got perma'd recently?

Taintrunner, guy who obnoxiously attacked anyone he thought was insufficiently leftist, not only turned out to be a sex pest but also crashed at Sady Doyle's place, who wrote the original Bernie Bro article. It's extremely possible that he was the inspiration.

Neurolimal
Nov 3, 2012


smoobles posted:

big Boss Baby vibes from Zack Snyder's Wonder Woman

Wonder Woman has been the hardassed murderer of the group for most of her modern incarnation. It's basically been her MO ever since people grew tired of BDSM Shenanigans.

If it wasn't a kids series I would have absolutely bought DCAU Wonder Woman beheading supervillains, for example.

Blood Boils posted:

I get not liking Gal Gadot as a person but the character of WW is a pagan Greek demigod who is quite emphatic to others. Like if she starts sniping children at recess cuz their wrongfully imprisoned fathers went on a hunger strike in prison, then sure that's some Israeli soldier coding. But otherwise it's just a bad reading

I mean, I personally would have shied away from having her deal with suicide bombing terrorists.

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Neurolimal
Nov 3, 2012


AccountSupervisor posted:

Lets just completely ignore the opening of Civil War in which Black Widow and Falcon visibly shoot and blow up like 6 people

FWIW I think they are specifically complaining about the kid idolatry immediately after the murder.

Like yeah, you can point to real world examples where that may happen/is plausible, but on film it still comes off as very satirical.

I didnt mind it too much, personally.

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