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KVeezy3
Aug 18, 2005

Airport Music for Black Folk


Superrodan posted:

It looks so dark and miserable to me, like it's going to be all of the self importance of when comic books take themselves too seriously, and little to none of the fun. I sincerely hope I'm wrong.
...

Same imo - Watchmen was very low fun per minute wise.

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KVeezy3
Aug 18, 2005

Airport Music for Black Folk


ImpAtom posted:


At no point do I go into a DC or Marvel story expecting realism because it isn't something they can provide. Even Snyder's films basically assume a fairly normal world despite having backstory that is anathema to that because it isn't really easy to structure and create such a world. And that is *absolutely fine.* The story is the important part, not the plausibility thereof.

It's fine if that isn't the story you want to see but the reasoning behind it is that superhero stories are specifically structured not to do that, at least the kind DC and Marvel tell. Hell part of the reason Watchmen stood out and still kind of does is that it does show a world where superheroes existed and it basically changed a ton of things and even if all those changes aren't super plausible it's a world that can't be our world even in goofy little ways (like superhero comics being replaced by pirate comics.)
...

Comic-book superheroes are largely structured to be a certain way, that is - extremely insular (Detached from history/culture), and petrified of taking risks/tackling big ideas, which results in deeply conservative works, both creatively and politically. But this extends far beyond just superhero fiction, to what I think is the reason for a lot of bad genre fiction as well as contemporary U.S. literature (U.S. authors even say they’re proud that their fiction is about nothing, as a way to proudly emphasize their dedication to pure craft and the aesthetics of language).

But as you’ve said, Watchmen & The Dark Knight Returns were watershed moments for the comic book genre, because it presented genuine new possibilities for the form by shedding the insularity of its past in a turning to the world. The problem is that the comic book industry used the new spotlight to exploit the ‘serious’ and ‘adult’ aspects purged entirely of their social/political content, and so the traumatic opening created by Moore and Miller was closed up and the extant history is used to justify its own continuance: superhero fiction has always been this way, so it can’t be any other way and compelling stories can’t be told otherwise. But there’s no such thing as inevitable forward progress.

Superman previously destroyed slums to force the U.S. government to improve the material conditions of the underclass. Where did this guy go? Sure, it's kind of dumb, but when was the last time a superhero did anything as interesting as this?



Brawleh is right that the real contention about Snyder is politics & ideology, since the typical complaints about his DC work is beloved in other superhero films and even the most ardent critics admit that his films are well designed. Nerds cheered TDK Joker killing a bunch of people in really dark ways, but are committed to Batman not killing - All of this is political. People deride his films for being CGI-fests, but the Avengers films, particularly the latter ones, are far more egregious.

As a genre filmmaker, Snyder not only isn’t afraid to touch sacred cows, but often finds that that’s the most creatively interesting thing to do (Hence Zod’s snapped neck). What makes him not simply a contrarian or nihilist, in the vein of Brightburn (2019) or Super (2010), is his commitment to following through as honestly as he can. Post-Watchmen, he doesn’t think there is a ‘going back’ to a world where Raimi’s Spider-Man 2 is considered the platonic ideal of comic book filmmaking, and in the process wants to redeem the mistake of the comic book industry in the realm of studio blockbuster filmmaking.

Of course, you can say that Snyder is failing to do it well, but I disagree that it’s not worth trying in the first place because of tradition.

live with fruit posted:

I guess this is my problem with BvS. I think it would've gone a lot further if, instead of seeing the Waynes get murdered yet again, the opening was an actual scene of Robin getting murdered. Every Batman loses his parents but not every Batman starts branding people so they can get murdered in prison and it feels like the audience is just expected to go along with this interpretation.

Certainly, the death of Batman’s parents has been a staple of every Batman film, but we should recognize how Snyder does it differently and how dependent the entire structure of the film is on that opening. “Martha” memes aside, the theme of parental figures permeates the film. While Batman is having nightmares about his parents and his mother being a monstrous vampire, Superman is able to turn to his mother and (The idea of) his father to find a calm island in times of crisis. The film makes Lex Luthor into a Jr., and although Luthor Sr. is long gone, his presence remains an ominous specter over the film.

Robin’s murder is an important event, but far more crucial to Batman’s descent is Snyder’s critique of Batman’s entire vigilante career. Clark investigates Batman and is deeply troubled that he’s mostly targeting the underclass with the consent of the police (An investigation that his boss doesn’t want him to do in lieu of puff pieces, the film’s critique of private news media under contemporary capitalism). Batman reflects on the fact that he hasn’t been able to cause real change, that “Criminals are like weeds” - the trauma of losing his parents to street level crime has him blinded to a structural analysis, which he comes face to face with at the end of BvS when the justice system lets Lex Luthor off free.

KVeezy3 fucked around with this message at 18:21 on Feb 15, 2021

KVeezy3
Aug 18, 2005

Airport Music for Black Folk


Gatts posted:

This is great stuff. Thank you.

Cheers! Thanks for reading.

Ghost Leviathan posted:

Lex Luthor having extreme daddy issues strikes me as building on his Smallville characterisation, where Lionel Luthor is basically his prototype.

I’m not too familiar with Smallville, but an interesting thing BvS notes is that Lex Sr. grew up in East Germany under tyrannical rule, and Lex Jr. inherits his father’s disdain for communism by going full anarcho-capitalist and directly linking Superman to a communist tyrant.

Maybe comic-book heads can confirm – was this historical connection invented for this film?

live with fruit posted:

Batman is both the point of view character who has understandable reasons to distrust Superman, even though the audience knows he's good because he was the hero of this first film, but also a vicious vigilante who's deeply troubled and condemns any criminal he comes in contact with to death. It's like Snyder wanted to have his cake and eat it too. At least the death of Robin would have given Batman a concrete breaking point that he could eventually work back towards.

I'm not sure I follow - How is that having your cake and eating it too? Batman explicitly says at the end of BvS that he failed Superman.

KVeezy3
Aug 18, 2005

Airport Music for Black Folk


Blasphemy. Why would the preeminent uber-objectivist filmmaker of our time use Ayn Rand's history to inform the origin story of a supervillain?

KVeezy3
Aug 18, 2005

Airport Music for Black Folk


Barreft posted:

I've just never seen such slavish loyalty to one person. The Snyder poo poo just reminds me of Trump/Elon/Roberts idol worship. Like I'm sure there's many out there defending Joss Whedon as well, which is just as weird.

e: eh

Serious questions: what exactly is all of the scary loyalty exhibited for Snyder? And why did you choose those comparisons in particular instead of like Hideo Kojima or something?

DanteDevils posted:

Marvel sucks too. The ubiquitousness of toxic comic-book and superhero fandom (media originally for children and adolescents) among presumably grown adults exemplifies a deeply alienated society and culture in which we live. The particular fanaticism of Zack Snyder’s personality cult is only one — albeit disturbing — iteration of this. Snyder’s love of Ayn Rand novels deserves the ridicule it receives as well.

Alan Moore detailed this alarming phenomenon perfectly:


Some more accurate commentary on this trend:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UgInmHHO0m4

And, of course, Martin Scorsese nailed it in his NYT op-ed: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/04/opinion/martin-scorsese-marvel.html

Dawn Of The Dead is Snyder’s only good film.

Moore is definitely great, but reciting his interviews like they're the Word of God is a bit uninspired. Like what are examples of Snyder's superhero work that reflect a desperate reversion to childhood, the reassurance of the 20th century, or white supremacy? Or are you saying all super hero fiction is irredeemable? Does the Terminator fall under this rubric?

It's not that I entirely disagree, as a couple pages back, I wrote a wall of text about how 'alienated' and subsequently bad most superhero fiction is, but that it isn't unique to the superhero genre or genre fiction in general. Why not apply a similar critique to the zombie genre?

You should watch Sucker Punch, it's not only his best film (Yes, I will die on this hill ) but the one that most embodies his overall artistic project, both aesthetically & politically.

KVeezy3 fucked around with this message at 16:01 on Feb 16, 2021

KVeezy3
Aug 18, 2005

Airport Music for Black Folk


But the real reason he pretends not to know is so he can repeatedly clown on The Superman for being a nerd.

KVeezy3
Aug 18, 2005

Airport Music for Black Folk


Alexander Hamilton posted:

Maybe, but it’s also a callback to earlier when Lois wants to fly to DC to hunt down a story and Perry makes her fly coach. Perry knows Lois will do anything for a story so he constantly has to rein her in but when she says it’s NOT for a story then he knows it’s serious.

If I remember correctly, I love that in the theatrical cut this bit with Lois arguing about air-fare rates while opening and shutting the door cuts directly to Mercy opening double-doors to Lex's drawing room for a senator.

KVeezy3 fucked around with this message at 23:09 on Feb 16, 2021

KVeezy3
Aug 18, 2005

Airport Music for Black Folk


lol'd at Snyder carefully eliding the fan question about whether his Batman used to have a "No-kill" rule early on and lost it, and if so, will it come back after the events of BvS.

https://youtu.be/8qBQvwXLoQk?t=854

It's like, no, Snyder fully gets that Batman has and always will kill, especially when he says he doesn't. To quote the man himself from the controversy a while back: “Someone says to me: [BvS] Batman killed a guy. I’m like, ‘gently caress, really?' Wake the gently caress up."

KVeezy3
Aug 18, 2005

Airport Music for Black Folk


Schwarzwald posted:

I don't think it has a prayer of happening... but if it builds any hype at all it'll make the suits at WB look like idiots who killed their golden goose. That has satisfaction of its own.

I feel the same way. I think the suits agreeing to put a not insubstantial amount of money into completing/marketing Justice League is partially meant to repair the working relationship with Snyder, so I'm fully ready to be brainwashed by the forthcoming The Fountainhead adaptation.

KVeezy3
Aug 18, 2005

Airport Music for Black Folk


A more practical outcome here for the resolution of the saga may be a comic book adaptation, which means we'll all have to post in BSS.

KVeezy3
Aug 18, 2005

Airport Music for Black Folk


Pirate Jet posted:

Snyder said himself he would investigate options for a comics continuation, which would be the first trade I buy in years.

Pretty cool, and I can't imagine an easier medium for him to transition to - far moreso than the limits of television.

KVeezy3 fucked around with this message at 03:45 on Feb 28, 2021

KVeezy3
Aug 18, 2005

Airport Music for Black Folk


The Dark Knight is unrelentingly dour, colorless & nihilistically paranoid for a comic book movie. Also, my dad Batman kills in it.

KVeezy3
Aug 18, 2005

Airport Music for Black Folk


It really is strange. According to Warner Bros. Youtube channel, ZSJL still doesn't exist.

KVeezy3
Aug 18, 2005

Airport Music for Black Folk



"I'm not broken.. and I'm not alone."
Cyborg's story is going to make me cry, confirmed.

KVeezy3
Aug 18, 2005

Airport Music for Black Folk


I don't even think it's technically correct - did Snyder even make a 2 hour in which this excision took place? It didn't seem that way to me from the recent Vanity Fair article.

KVeezy3
Aug 18, 2005

Airport Music for Black Folk


I'm really glad that Ray Fisher's performance is getting a lot of love & I hope Snyder's bold decisions to keep his intended aspect ratio for a home debut & historic running-time will open the space for more film-makers to have something as compositionally important as those be artistic choices.

KVeezy3 fucked around with this message at 22:47 on Mar 15, 2021

KVeezy3
Aug 18, 2005

Airport Music for Black Folk


thrawn527 posted:

Has he said that's the reason? Like, I don't doubt that being the real reason, but I thought the stated reason from him was that he felt he was already paid for his work on Justice League, so he's doing this as a labor of love, or something. I'd be pretty surprised if he came out and said, "I'm not taking a paycheck to make sure those assholes who finally let me finish the movie can't tell me to go gently caress myself again."

I'd be happy if he said that, but also surprised.

It wasn't all smooth sailing once the opportunity to complete the film came to him. From the Vanity Fair article, he forgoed pay to leverage more creative control over ZSJL. And his good relations with his actors got us the additional reshoots as well.

KVeezy3
Aug 18, 2005

Airport Music for Black Folk


Zaphod42 posted:

...
You know what I'd want? Snyder can even direct, but have him do a more direct adaptation like he did with 300 and Watchmen, and directly adapt one of the Bruce Timm Justice League episodes or movies into a live-action/cg version. Those stories had so much heart and character, I really wish they'd pull more from the animated Batman, Superman and JL. But at the moment that's not happening and its not Snyder-verse. (Also I guess you'd have to introduce hawk-girl, but she's cool and they need more ladies in the DCEU JL)

Can you give an example of the heart and character the animated DC stuff has that the live-action films are missing?

KVeezy3
Aug 18, 2005

Airport Music for Black Folk


Zaphod42 posted:

Ah I think I had heard about that somewhere but forgot about it because it hasn't has as much attention as the snyder cut. Would be interesting to see for sure.

Although with the big budget reboot coming full of top name celebrities, Ayer may have a harder time getting the traction and audience Snyder did to back him into pushing his version out.

Well, what does "challenging" mean to you, or to Snyder? I thought you meant challenging like adult, dark, mature themes. But you mean challenging like, "this isn't my batman" ?

Avengers Infinity War features multiple scenes of torture & lovable protagonists being forced to personally murder their loved ones. But it's not challenging anything artistically.

KVeezy3
Aug 18, 2005

Airport Music for Black Folk


Zaphod42 posted:

Yeah but I feel the same way about BvS I think the Ace death scene is more challenging than "Martha!"

The central issue that brings about the Batman v Superman title-fight is Snyder proposing that Superman would perceive the humanity of, and fight for the civil rights of a sex trafficker against Batman's death sentence. This linchpin of the film was so challenging that people, to this day, are utterly confused why Superman hates Batman so much. Please, let me know of anything that the animated stuff does that approaches this.

KVeezy3 fucked around with this message at 00:01 on Mar 16, 2021

KVeezy3
Aug 18, 2005

Airport Music for Black Folk


Schwarzwald posted:

Reminds me that I still got to take time to watch the new Broly film.

It's the purest embodiment of fan-service.

KVeezy3
Aug 18, 2005

Airport Music for Black Folk


Zaphod42 posted:

You're saying "challenging" but if the audience is confused then it isn't challenging, its confusing. If people were really "challenged" by that then they wouldn't be confused; they'd staunchly agree that either Superman was right or Batman was right, which is maybe what they wanted. To have people like Twilight going "#TeamBatman" or "#TeamSuperman" but if the audience reaction is "why?" then that means the film failed to convey something, not that it was just too deep for them to ever handle.

I think you know as well as I do that the comics did explore the angle of "why keep putting villains in jail if the keep breaking out and hurting people?" and some handled it better than others, but its not groundbreaking. It just feels like dabbling in some Watchmen with your DC rather than fully committing to saying something.

Let's not stray from the point and pontificate on what some imaginary person might think. In the case of the sex trafficker in BvS, who's side are you on, Batman or Superman?

KVeezy3
Aug 18, 2005

Airport Music for Black Folk


Zaphod42 posted:

Why does that matter? Its a false dichotomy and a complicated subject. (If you have the death penalty sex traffickers should probably be the first to qualify) Lets not stray from the point; you were explaining how its so great that the film is still confusing to people. So are you saying that no filmmaker could ever tackle that subject and not have an audience come away saying "That was confusing" ?

No, you're changing the terms of the discussion to what constitutes 'greatness'. We're purely talking about what constitutes challenging art, and you're still evading the question by resigning to a "should probably". Superman and Batman are both resolute on their respective perspectives, so what's yours?

KVeezy3 fucked around with this message at 01:02 on Mar 16, 2021

KVeezy3
Aug 18, 2005

Airport Music for Black Folk


bushisms.txt posted:

... But that was literally all the movie was, emotional manipulation. It is baffling anyone believed thanos was actually sad about killing gamora, a person he indiscriminately calls his child due to capture, death and imprisonment just like a ton of others.

Our feelings are irrelevant. The movie established an absolute truth that he was really sad, since that's the stipulation to getting that infinity stone.

It reminds me of the way they wrote Dr. Strange declaring that they only had one path to victory, which justifies everything both retroactively and proactively.

KVeezy3
Aug 18, 2005

Airport Music for Black Folk


2house2fly posted:

... Somehow getting the glove off Thanos would be worse than letting him snap half the universe and then letting him get drat near to snapping the whole thing??

Yes, because then Dr. Strange would have no way to get Tony killed in that timeline.

KVeezy3
Aug 18, 2005

Airport Music for Black Folk


elf help book posted:

It should be longer

Release the 5 hour cut

KVeezy3
Aug 18, 2005

Airport Music for Black Folk


fart simpson posted:

apparently if you have the right brain worms then yes it does as evidenced by posters in this thread

it does add character development yes. for example in the original steppenwolf is generic bad guy who just loves to be evil. now he’s been elevated to generic henchman who wants to impress his generic bad guy boss who just loves to be evil

I know you're a bit riled up right now, but is it necessary to insult people when you've haven't said much but "it's bad" over and over? Nothing said in this thread is that far off from what the general reviews have been saying,

KVeezy3
Aug 18, 2005

Airport Music for Black Folk


Blind Rasputin posted:

In one scene, Cyborg, an African American, is seen saving a Caucasian police officer from almost certain death. However, if one watches the scene carefully as it plays out, they might notice something very concerning. Instead of Cyborg saying, “move!” or, “out of the way!” or just simply picking the cop up and moving him (like the superheroes have done to nearly every single other human they save in every other scene of the movie); Cyborg instead meekly says to the cop, “sir, you might want to not stand there.” As if it’s a suggestion. It becomes painfully apparent that despite all we have learned this past year, WB and Zack Snyder would like to remind its viewers that cops still hold all the power in the equation. Cops are still the ultimate arbiters of authority and even superheroes dare not forget this, let alone HBO subscribers. I turned the movie off at that point and refuse to finish it. People are talking about this on Twitter.

I mean, cops do hold all the power in the equation. Why is it good to pretend that this isn't the case?

You might enjoy more the prior film in the trilogy, Batman v Superman, which criticizes the police more systematically than the Nolan trilogy which deems it a 'bad apples' situation.

KVeezy3
Aug 18, 2005

Airport Music for Black Folk


Alexander Hamilton posted:

One of the little things I like in BvS is that Clark and Lois are seemingly living together but it's her place and her name is the only one on the mailbox.

It adds so much to their dynamic. So when Clark expresses disapproval that Lois is running around in war-zones and chasing dangerous leads, he doesn't put his foot because of how much he respects her. And also she's paying for the swanky apartment.

KVeezy3 fucked around with this message at 17:56 on Mar 18, 2021

KVeezy3
Aug 18, 2005

Airport Music for Black Folk


Steen71 posted:

I think there's a case to be made for watching stuff you don't like from time to time. If one is seriously interested in film as an art form, watching a badly made film can be almost as interesting as watching a great one. I'm 20 minutes into ZSJL and am utterly fascinated by this film. I also think it's complete garbage.

Characterizing 'hate-watching' as sharpening your skill as a discerning purveyor of art is a bit much. I think that kind of watching actually produces the opposite effect, where the viewer is free from having to engage with the media and can maintain an ironic distance. To actually get anything from a 'bad' film, you'd have to explicate anything specifically.

KVeezy3
Aug 18, 2005

Airport Music for Black Folk


Hollismason posted:

Like seriously what director goes " Yeah everyone has flat screens now, 4:3 is the ratio that Imma go with". Whole movie is trash because of that.

Televisions are designed to strike a balance between both wider and taller aspect ratios. What you're getting upset about is entirely psychological, because you're not actually losing that much screen space with the more boxy aspect ratios.

KVeezy3
Aug 18, 2005

Airport Music for Black Folk


Recently completed my first watch and working my way through this thread. Just the level of scope and ambition on this thing is insane. Someone remarked how skilled, both in depth and breadth, a director of comic-book films really needs to be, and I think that's been made quite apparent in the Snyder Cut.

Tuxedo Catfish posted:

Sucker Punch is Snyder's best film and both better than, and a critique of, the entire narrative and aesthetic standard that Whedon represents


I also think it's his best film. You also wrote that the film could be described as 'blunt', which I think is apt. The idea that the film is muddled in its messaging is mostly rooted in its serious commitment to the harrowing subject matter. It's just not really addressed in our culture, never-mind in what should be a schlocky genre action film.

My first impression is that the Snyder Cut is a more palatable, and slightly inverted, version of Sucker Punch, where you have these isolated individuals, fueled by the power of myth & fantasy, utilizing their trauma to locate the MacGuffins of the story.

KVeezy3
Aug 18, 2005

Airport Music for Black Folk


Megaman's Jockstrap posted:

I don't think that calling a movie "good" serves any value. It's a descriptor that's too broad and individual to be of any value, just like grimdark.

Right, if you just say that a film is good or bad, and don't expand much from there, you're not talking about the film, you're talking about yourself.

People don't dislike things because of 'reasons', they dislike things and find reasons afterwards. The idea that all comments should be taken literally is an issue because people can be poor at communicating.

Its Chocolate posted:

Warhammer guys admit that their thing is grimdark and they like it. why can't Snyder guys

From what I understand, grim-dark implies a hyper-concentrated amounts of badass nihilism. From this standpoint, Nolan's films are way more grim-dark than any of Snyder's films, and he's made one about a zombie apocalypse.

The problem is that a lot these kind of criticisms function as if film history begins and ends with the MCU, and the proof that nothing else is possible is in box office numbers.

KVeezy3
Aug 18, 2005

Airport Music for Black Folk


Zaphod42 posted:

I think talking about art is always talking about yourself. If you say you like a band or you don't like a band, you're inherently talking about yourself as much as you're talking about that band. I don't like plenty of bands that other people do like, and I like bands that other people don't. It goes beyond objective quality and into issues of taste and genre and style. You may hate a work as a child, but then as an adult having seen other things that build up to that style, you suddenly find an appreciation of it.

But I agree, people can be poor at communicating.

Which is why trying to analyze a film and say that it is objectively good or bad is really hard. And we have to tread lightly and respect each others' takes.

The point is that these are just jumping off points and one must return back to the text. If someone says they don't like Man of Steel because grim-dark Superman doesn't care enough about the lives of people being lost in the Metropolis brawl, directed by a racist and sexist objectivist, how would one engage in conversation with that?

KVeezy3
Aug 18, 2005

Airport Music for Black Folk


Zaphod42 posted:

Yeah sure, they're definitely just jumping off points. But like I said, a lot of this is just quotes from people's takes on twitter, its not a conversation. Just pointing at that and going "wrong!" is pretty silly. If you got to have a conversation with them I imagine they would explain their take more.

I'm not sure why you felt the need to create such an extreme strawman example, but obviously you would ask them why they think that and you would give your own examples to the contrary, as we have been doing in this thread about many other aspects of the films Or you would ignore them as a troll.


As cited earlier, warhammer fans lean into it.

The example I gave isn't an extreme strawman, and was quite common when the Man of Steel thread was in its prime. Posters pushing back on those kind of empty readings are a big reason why CineD has this reputation as being smug elitists about 'empty' popcorn films. And posters still routinely drive by, completely bewildered that people actually like Snyder's interpretations of these characters and worlds.

KVeezy3
Aug 18, 2005

Airport Music for Black Folk


Zaphod42 posted:

Well I think we can actually agree that if you've only seen the theatrical BvS and only the Whedon JL that you've had a pretty awful experience. So its not that bewildering that people have those takes. I still haven't seen ultimate BvS myself.

But regardless of it being something someone posted before, its still nothing to do with the current discussion and not worth bringing up. Like yeah, trolls also exist, but "well someone once trolled ____" isn't really something worth bringing up in a discussion of legitimate takes. It risks completely derailing the conversation, and feels like you're even saying "anybody who disagrees with me is like one of these idiots".

It's not about disagreement or whether one personally liked or had an awful experience with a film. I've read plenty of interesting reads of films by posters here of films they thought were dreadful. I brought past examples up because people use concepts like "Grim-dark" in a similar way, to function as roadblocks to discussion.

KVeezy3
Aug 18, 2005

Airport Music for Black Folk


Zaphod42 posted:

If somebody is trolling then the problem is they're trolling, not the use of a single word. Sorry but I think you just gotta call that out for what it is, and its even equally toxic to assume someone is being disingenuous and label them such because they used a word.

You're getting me wrong here. I'm not labeling them as trolls, because I don't think they're being disingenuous.

KVeezy3
Aug 18, 2005

Airport Music for Black Folk



I was unclear when I wrote that "..people use concepts like 'Grim-dark' in a similar way, to function as roadblocks to discussion", which led you to believe that I thought these were troll tactics by ill-intentioned people. To be specific, I mean that people latch on to these signifiers which short-circuit their ability to properly engage with a film.

To understand what they mean, it would be a mistake to take these words literally, which was what the WB studio execs did when they saw these poorly articulated complaints about MoS and BvS as what was preventing them from making Avengers money, and in no uncertain terms, mandated Justice League's film-makers to literally make the frame brighter, with more jokes and smiling while saving civilians.

Of course, you can say that I'm being extremely patronizing by robbing people of their innermost subjectivity and free will, but when push comes to shove, I've yet to see someone use, 'Grim-dark' as a jumping off point to discuss Snyder's films in a substantial & interesting way.

KVeezy3 fucked around with this message at 23:04 on Mar 22, 2021

KVeezy3
Aug 18, 2005

Airport Music for Black Folk


Darko posted:

I remember grimdark referring to 90s Image comics where everyone was just bloody dismemberment and literally made of metal and stuff and super XTreme. Liefeld was pretty much the king of this style of storytelling. Ellis mostly stayed away, on the flip side.

Snyder stuff is just Infinite Crisis level in tone, which is why I was just so lost when everyone was using that term. Then over time, I realized none of these people saw any source materials for anything including even the older comic movies.

We're living in the inverted cinematic version of the comic book industry's history, where the lesson learned after the success of The Dark Knight Returns & Watchmen elevating the medium to the level of 'art' by mainstream media resulted in the proliferation of mature graphic novels stripped of any substantial social & political criticism.

KVeezy3 fucked around with this message at 01:22 on Mar 23, 2021

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KVeezy3
Aug 18, 2005

Airport Music for Black Folk


SuperMechagodzilla posted:

For the record ‘grimdarkness’ refers to both:

A) The literal amount of brightness in a film.

and

B) The degree to which the characters enjoy what they’re doing

….

All good points. Though I would make a slight adjustment to that definition, because the usage implies a void which generates the perception of extreme content. So grimdark-ness is:

A) The lack of brightness in a film
B) The lack of enjoyment had by the protagonists

which would foreground the negative characteristic of these two terms. Like people don’t characterize The Raid or horror movies as such.

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