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ApplesandOranges
Jun 22, 2012

Thankee kindly.
Nuke and Psy were in P5, yes, that's what Makoto/Haru's elemental affinities were. They were from P1/P2 (Nuclear was Force then) and were left out of modern Persona until now. They're generally less common than the other four and are mostly 'capitalize on Technical' elements (Wind is the only other one that can score a Technical on anything that's not Dizzy).

Makoto can score the most Technicals practically since Nuclear gets Technical on Burn/Freeze/Shock and it's rarer to inflict the status ailments that Psy likes, but she's probably the worst at it out of anyone other than Ann and Sophie (who can't really do it at all) because she doesn't get Technical Expert like Morgana/Haru and scoring Technicals with physicals generally gets better results since chances are you have the HP to do it while spamming magic just runs you dry (in my opinion). She does eclipse Haru late game at it though.

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ApplesandOranges
Jun 22, 2012

Thankee kindly.
I think Psy/Nuke were decent additions since in P3/P4 you had the issue of characters doubling up on elements because what else. So Koromaru/Junpei both used Fire, and Ken used Elec because the Eiga/Kouga line didn't exist there and they needed to have your Mudo/Hama guys have some way to do damage. Similarly, Teddie took over as the Ice caster in P4 since Chie pretty much used physicals, and they gave Naoto all four elements in P4G since otherwise she was pretty useless in boss fights other than throwing out expensive Megido spells that didn't do much more damage than actual casters.

There's no repeat elements in the P5 lineup, just nobody being a Curse user since that's kind of Joker's in theory due to Arsene. Akechi had some Curse spells but his main focus as a party member was Bless.

Honestly I'm just more appreciative that they gave Bless/Curse actual damage spells.

ApplesandOranges
Jun 22, 2012

Thankee kindly.

Twelve by Pies posted:

Actually Jail 5 got me wondering some things since I didn't play P5, nothing major or necessary to enjoy the story but as someone who played previous games I'm curious.

Here's a fairly summarized version of it, but I'll try to hit as many points as possible.

The Metaverse is essentially the world formed by human subconsciousness. It generally doesn't exist on a strong enough level in most areas, but can form when there's someone with a distorted viewpoint (Palace rulers) or when there's enough concentrated subconscious thoughts that it just naturally builds up - in P5, it was basically the subway system since it was packed with people all day. When a Palace ruler's cognition is stopped or changed, that area of the Metaverse collapses and can no longer be accessed. This is a fundamental difference from Jails.

The key word is basically cognition. Morgana is the biggest example of this; to most people, he sounds like a cat. But when you hear him talk in the Metaverse, your brain becomes cognizant of the fact that he can talk, and so in the real world you subconsciously associate him with 'oh, he can talk' and all his meowing makes sense. In that regard, the Phantom Thieves' abilities in the Metaverse are a similar style; because they're considered 'dangerous' in the Metaverse, that cognition grants them power; in other words, if a Palace ruler considers them to be threats, then in that sense, they are threats. It doesn't mean they're powerless if they're not considered threats since the whole point of Persona users are their strength of heart and rebelling against what other people think of you, but cognition very much shapes the reality of the Metaverse. There are various instances where the PTs had to change someone's cognition in reality to affect the Metaverse; the calling cards are a notable example of that. Both the Metaverse and reality can affect each other.

The difference is who's controlling each dimension. People are aware of Morgana talking because it's their own cognition of an individual. The PTs can't affect reality on that scale to summon their Personas in public, so they have to use their actual physical abilities. It's also why they get wiped out whenever they come back from the Metaverse; their bodies actually catch up to them from all the stunts they effortlessly do in the Metaverse.

P5 Persona users awaken to their powers by gaining the strength of rebellion. In other words, they face up against a world that rejects their view and their defiance forms their Persona. It's similar to P4 in a way, in that it's basically strength of will. That will manifests itself in their Persona. I guess a slight difference is that it's less 'accepting' their Persona and more 'okay you're that rebellious side of me that I can finally set free'.

In the Metaverse, again, cognition shapes everything. Thus, each person has a subconscious version of everyone they meet. So if, say, Ryuji had a Palace, there might be versions of Joker or Ann or Futaba in his Metaverse dungeon as how he views them. You could say that there are multiple Shadow versions of anybody, depending on how many Metaverse entrances there are and who they belong to (specific people you've encountered, collective unconsciousness). For the most parts, Shadows don't affect reality unless they are killed or have a change of heart. Strikers amps up the stakes by making it so that Shadows do, in, fact, affect their real selves.

I'm not sure I've covered everything, but I'm happy enough to answer more questions (here or in DMs).

ApplesandOranges
Jun 22, 2012

Thankee kindly.
Makoto is a bike because vroom vroom

Also in P5, every character has an evolved Persona for completing their Social Link, just like in P4 (and in Royal, they have an advanced form in January that combines their first two). Ryuji's is funny because Morgana calls him an ape as an epithet every now and then, and his second Persona is basically Sun Wukong.

ApplesandOranges
Jun 22, 2012

Thankee kindly.

Omobono posted:

Starting Merciless NG+ and it's not that hard for now, I assume it'll get worse after the first Jail.

But man, does it teach you to DODGE really quickly.
E: and anything with a name needs a debilitate into all three ma-kajas.

Are there any good high level wind or nuke personas? I should drop Mara and Seth because of redundant skill coverage but I think the highest wind/nuke were Koppa Tengu and Trumpeter at level (and stats) $way_too_low.

I believe you'll need to fuse up; Norn learns Panta Rhei and Mot learns Cosmic Flare. I just shoved Magarudyne onto Alice and called it a day.

Most of the high level Personas are actually physical leaning other than Alice.

Merciless isn't too bad but yeah, you'll get random 'oh hey, I got tagged with a physical and I'm dead' moments. The early fight with a Bicorn is super rough because it's Game Over if Joker dies since the game doesn't let you switch between party members yet. Get used to bringing a physical character or two because boss fights where you forget to bring a weakness can really drain you of resources otherwise. There was this one fight with an Eligor in the second Jail that I didn't bring Ryuji to and I didn't have anyone with Ziodyne, so that fight took forever.

ApplesandOranges fucked around with this message at 00:57 on Mar 17, 2021

ApplesandOranges
Jun 22, 2012

Thankee kindly.
Workaround suggestion: Bugs appears in the 7th Jail. I don't know if you need to have fused it to get it drop its mask, but it saves you from dumping PP into Pixie.

ApplesandOranges
Jun 22, 2012

Thankee kindly.

CharlieFoxtrot posted:

Haru dabbing is too powerful



All the AoA finishers are good but I like Skull's.

"See ya!" :rock:

ApplesandOranges
Jun 22, 2012

Thankee kindly.
I dunno, Futaba even tells you about it during the fight.

Maybe you just got snowed out.

ApplesandOranges
Jun 22, 2012

Thankee kindly.

Spiffster posted:

One bad thing about the boss fights is that I want to read the prompts and story beats that go on but my mind gets tunnel vision and I just want to spam and stun lock the enemy for as long as possible.

I beat that boss twice without ever noticing it so I might go back for a third and take the advice from the load screen and take my time.

You can always hold it at the skill select screen and it'll pause the fight, so you can listen to things.

ImpAtom posted:

It depends on the situation.

I'd probably spoiler most of this or at least leave it vague for someone who actually wants to experience the story.

ApplesandOranges
Jun 22, 2012

Thankee kindly.
Yeah I'm fine on that level, but Akechi is pretty much left completely out of Strikers. They also really only namedrop Kamoshida, Madarame and Shido in passing, too.

ApplesandOranges
Jun 22, 2012

Thankee kindly.

CharlieFoxtrot posted:

Is this the first Persona game that's a continuation of a main game's storyline? From what I gather the spinoff games have historically been "non-canon" alternate universes or fantasies?

Arena is effectively canon. Q/Q2 and Dancing (P3/P5 versions) handwave it with 'and they forgot everything at the end', so they're technically canon-compliant if you want them to be.

I think the only spinoff that's basically 'non-canon' is P3 trinity soul.

Strikers and the extra content in Royal were developed concurrently, and while they don't explicitly contradict each other, they don't build off each other, either.

ApplesandOranges
Jun 22, 2012

Thankee kindly.
I'm just going with 'there's gonna be a Persona 5 Arena most likely, it's probably gonna be set in the winter after Joker leaves, and there'll be references to both but without giving away too much'.

The Persona 4 spin-offs are just a mess, because when you try to fit everything in (I'm not sure how BBTAG falls into this, I haven't played it), Yu just had an extremely packed year. I think DAN is the 'last' in the canon timeline? It takes place after the P4G epilogue, at least.

ApplesandOranges
Jun 22, 2012

Thankee kindly.
I mean Strikers already gave them all cool fighting movesets.

ApplesandOranges
Jun 22, 2012

Thankee kindly.

Twelve by Pies posted:

Ah okay, so the villains don't actually go in the Metaverse then? Is this because P5 seems to take the stance that Persona users are inherently good/noble? I'm kind of getting that interpretation from how Morgana explained it in this game, that it represents "your rebellious heart against the injustices of this world" or whatever, so an evil Persona user wouldn't really fit with that, unlike in P4 where the main villain was a Persona user.

There are (as a mild spoiler) bad Persona users in every game. I'm not going to go too far into spoiler territory, but having a Persona doesn't mean that you're inherently good, just that you have a strong will to overcome other's preconceived notions of you.

ApplesandOranges
Jun 22, 2012

Thankee kindly.

Gay Rat Wedding posted:

I completed the third dungeon.

so when haru's good, she's really good, huh. breaking a psi-weak enemy's shield with her psi whirlwind lets you just hold it on them long enough to very nearly break the next shield by the time they stand up again, repeat.

As someone who's going through Merciless, Haru is somewhat dependent on her psi whirlwind. Psiodyne is fine and Technical Aspect helps her... but she only gets Psy Boost (not Amp) and her Ma is average enough that on bosses it'll take multiple uses of it to crack a shield. Yusuke and Ryuji have the same issues; Yusuke doesn't even learn Ice Boost, so he has the toughest time breaking shields with his element, but at least Knockdown Style helps him do it with physicals.

ApplesandOranges
Jun 22, 2012

Thankee kindly.
You get used to bottlenecks changing. Right now my bottlenecks are beef, tofu, carrots and crab.

ApplesandOranges
Jun 22, 2012

Thankee kindly.
Also I think the Dire Shadows on Merciless drop the real ultimate weapons for each characters? I'm up to Jail 6, beaten the first four and I think I've gotten upgrades for Morgana/Ryuji/Ann/Yusuke so far.

I also continue to lament that Yusuke is officially the worst mage since he doesn't even learn Ice Boost. Ryuji and Haru learn Elec/Psy Boost and Ryuji even gets it for free on his ultimate. He still shreds well with his crit skills and Freeze is (in my opnion) the best status after Burn, but eh.

ApplesandOranges
Jun 22, 2012

Thankee kindly.

Twelve by Pies posted:

Actually a thought occurred to me today, I don't know if the game ever says it or not but if you assume Akane's grandparents that live next door are her paternal grandparents, that makes Zenkichi the rare JRPG protagonist whose parents are both alive and well and remain so for the entire game.

Hey now, Ann's are alive!

Other Persona playables whose parents are (as far as we know) alive: Yosuke, Chie, Yukiko, Rise. Of course of that set, none of them are ever mentioned aside from maybe a passing line or two.

ApplesandOranges
Jun 22, 2012

Thankee kindly.
I wonder if there should be a signpost that 'don't worry, the game switches up the formula right around the point where you might start to get sick of it'.

ApplesandOranges
Jun 22, 2012

Thankee kindly.

Twelve by Pies posted:

I started a Merciless playthrough because I was intrigued by the game saying that there's extra content in it (though it notes that it's not extra story content). I do remember seeing something about "Takeover mode" mentioned on a couple of sites talking about post-game content, but literally none of them say what it actually loving is. You do have to fuse the final Persona to access it, and I'm only level 83 and fusing it requires me to be 90, so it'll be a while before I find out.

People weren't kidding about how tough Merciless is, I got OHKO'd in the opening tutorial battle. I got through it by liberal use of Megadolaon. The first actual battle, the game was kind enough to inform me that there's no "Retry Battle" option in Merciless. What that means is if you get defeated in the Bicorn boss battle, you're doing everything all over again from when you first entered the Metaverse. Probably helpful to bring a Persona that does lightning damage and resists physical to prepare for that fight, I happened to have Shiisa (though a default drop one) in my stock which was really helpful since nothing else I had did electric damage, and you can't baton pass at that point so you can't spam Ryuji's skills.

Everything after that has been much more manageable, no more OHKO stuff so far though yeah enemies hit hard and it's usually two or three hits to make you go down. On the plus side, random battles have a good chance of dropping Incenses it seems.

I'm up to Jail 6 and there's no extra story content. From what I've glanced though, here's what Merciless offers:

-Much better exp scaling; I was 99 before I was done with the second dungeon. Bond Exp is also scaled, though you'll still need to grind to unlock everything.
-Obviously much higher levels on the dropped Persona, if for some reason you need them
-Larger quantities of dropped Incenses
-Dire Shadows now respawn after you beat them and come back. This also applies to Risky though, so it's not a Merciless-only feature.
-Dire Shadows on Merciless drop 'ultimate' weapons for each character. These are basically each character's strongest weapon from the original post-game but with extra stats. For example, Ryuji's is still Elec Boost, but now also has St+5.
-The final Request (post-game) boss is now much harder and has adds.

I do find that character tier lists shift slightly in Merciless. Morgana is now king in Merciless among the healers, as Salvation is extremely helpful, and he'll murder anything that's been Burned thanks to Technical Adept and Garudyne spamming. Haru kind of flatlines a bit, as her Ma is low enough that she really has to spam to break shields and her other skills aren't too notable other than Heat Riser.

ApplesandOranges fucked around with this message at 12:34 on Mar 31, 2021

ApplesandOranges
Jun 22, 2012

Thankee kindly.

Twelve by Pies posted:

I finally made Lucifer, got one that has a strength stat of 75 which is nice. I also gave it Null Nuke because why not. The biggest problem was trying to figure out what to give it, all the skills it can inherit from its components are so good it's difficult to choose. I took Angelic Grace too, as well as Fire Amp, Enduring Soul, and Spell Master. I feel those are probably the best skills to give him, though I guess it depends on if you're going to keep Blazing Hell or not. I'm flat broke though from spending the points to get the required Personas up to snuff. I have less than 300 yen.

Also the redux of the opening tutorial battle was really difficult, I got wiped five or six times. I finally was able to make it through with Yoshitsune and Ann's charm that gives high fire damage reduction. Since it nulls lightning the Zios the Pixies were throwing at me had no effect (those were responsible for about half my deaths), and it's strong against fire already so combined with Ann's charm it helped keep the Agis from Jack manageable. And on top of that it's strong against physical so the Bicorns were easier to deal with, and it had Enduring Soul so I got one free mulligan. Still an incredibly hard fight. Bicorns are the loving worst.

I settled on Fire Amp, Blazing Hell, Spell Master, Ice Boost and Diamond Dust on mine. Gives it a bit more flexibility.

Now that I'm deep into Merciless I'm just grabbing a Mot and Thor and levelling them up for their endgame spells, too.

ApplesandOranges
Jun 22, 2012

Thankee kindly.

Twelve by Pies posted:

Yeah I found out real quick I want some ice since the Berith enemies in Sendai drain fire now, oof. The new enemy resistances are rough, like Slime completely nullifying physical now, and facing Berith and Slimes in a pack is really difficult.

Still I'm kinda having fun with Merciless, more than I thought I would. I'm kind of wondering if there's any new armor though, so far quest rewards seem to be the same, though I haven't done any of the "more armor in Sophie's shop" reward ones so I'm not sure if there's new armor from that, if there's no reward, or if it just gives me the repeat reward as the initial reward.

Rewards are pretty much the same. Your main targets are the Dire Shadows, since they drop the new ultimate weapons (one per). No new armor as far as I can tell.

Also casual reminder to bring Ryuji or a Zio Persona during the infiltration in Sendai towards the end when it's a rush to the top. Eligor's only weakness is Elec and he's resistant to Physical, and me deciding at the last second not to bring Ryuji and not having any Ziodyne made that fight way longer than it should have been.

ApplesandOranges
Jun 22, 2012

Thankee kindly.

Twelve by Pies posted:

I'm going through my skill cards, which I barely used on my initial playthrough, to shore up weaknesses on my Personas and spread around some buff skills. Trumpeter is the highest possible level nuclear Persona, and it doesn't learn Nuke Amp, which sucks because I don't have a card for that. Same for Fortuna and Wind Amp. My initial playthrough I didn't care much about having a Persona for every element, but with the new resistances that Merciless has I don't want to get put in a situation where an enemy can only be effectively hit by one element and have Joker have to spam Megidolaon or something.

Also I can confirm that the requests that gave new shop stuff on NG+ just give the repeat reward as their initial reward, like the "more armor" one gives a single medicine. It sucks too because to fight the superboss you have to do all the other requests so you have to waste time doing a quest with a crap reward. Also that means I gotta fuse up all those Personas with specific skills again since I don't know if I have the right skill cards to just cheese them.

Trivia: Trumpeter doesn't learn Cosmic Flare. It's Mot (who also learns Nuke Amp).

The good news is that nothing is ever immune to all but one element. There are some with a lot of resistances (I think the final boss resists everything but physicals and Bless/Curse), but you'll usually have at least one party member that can do something to it, even if not well.

ApplesandOranges
Jun 22, 2012

Thankee kindly.
The really weird thing is that in P5, everyone ends up in the Velvet Room and meet Lavenza.

ApplesandOranges
Jun 22, 2012

Thankee kindly.
Which will happen first, the game letting Joker kiss Ryuji or letting Ann kiss Shiho

ApplesandOranges
Jun 22, 2012

Thankee kindly.
Futaba would probably cotton onto any Ryujimance way before Ryuji even gets a clue, she's pretty sharp on tropes.

ApplesandOranges
Jun 22, 2012

Thankee kindly.

Gay Rat Wedding posted:

ok, I got a good chuckle out of (dungeon 6) the calling card written by zenkichi just being boring cop poo poo

I hope Makoto realizes in that moment that so much of being a cop is going to be very boring legalese.

ApplesandOranges
Jun 22, 2012

Thankee kindly.
The 4th Dungeon's I found to be super easy because it's weak to both Fire and Wind. Have Ann Burn it, then Morgana spams Garula/dyne, AoA, repeat until you need to refresh Burn.

ApplesandOranges
Jun 22, 2012

Thankee kindly.
Yeah there's a reason Haru's really good in Sapporo, not only because the enemy's weak to Psy, but also because the Rage status means free Technicals.

Dekaja does work on other actual buffs.

ApplesandOranges
Jun 22, 2012

Thankee kindly.
It's also worth noting that she's not portrayed as 'wrong' for being neruo-divergent, more that she's wrong for processing and going about it in an unhealthy way, and then imposing her will onto other people. Society dumped on her the same way it did Alice, and while she started with good intentions (creating Sophie to help her understand), once the actual work started (having to explain what a heart was to Sophie), she just shut down, proclaimed it useless, and decided that all of humanity would be better without emotions.

ApplesandOranges
Jun 22, 2012

Thankee kindly.
Also, I hope your Alice has Mudo Boost.

Yoshitsune also has a unique Showtime. I can't remember if anybody else does, I think Lucifer may do?

ApplesandOranges
Jun 22, 2012

Thankee kindly.

Oxxidation posted:

i really don't appreciate how so many lategame personas are fused by taking much, much lower-level ones and pumping up their levels to stratospheric heights. even if you have the resources to amass PP quickly it's so tedious to summon and dismiss personas again and again to hike up the numbers

If you do Merciless NG+, that problem is solved very quickly.

Also I think a lot of the Personas with high level requirements are actually solved in other ways? Like Bugs and Lilith can show up as masks later on, some can be fused with sensible level base Personas eventually, and some that do require a bit of levelling the base forms are the ones that you want to level anyway (like levelling Nebiros for Alice gets you Debilitate, so it's a net bonus).

ApplesandOranges
Jun 22, 2012

Thankee kindly.
Ehh, I very much read Sophia in the 'little sister' role, similar to Futaba. Not to mention that considering Sophia is supposed to take a form based on who activated her... yeah there's some potential real creepy implications there.

I definitely do recommend Persona 5 (Royal), but your best bet might be to wait for a PC release. We'd have a better chance of P4G getting ported to the Switch.

ApplesandOranges
Jun 22, 2012

Thankee kindly.
The wiki says that 'Her appearance is based on what whoever activates it wants her to become. ', but of course, wiki being wiki and it could be unsubstantiated.

ApplesandOranges
Jun 22, 2012

Thankee kindly.
Ann appreciates Concentrate to save some SP on Blazing Hell. Ryuji appreciates Charge since it eats into SP rather than HP, and he usually has SP to spare.

There are times when you may want to have Ryuji use God's Hand/Agneyestra twice instead to squeeze in a second Technical before Freeze/Shock goes away, but otherwise it's generally safe for those two to power up first.

ApplesandOranges
Jun 22, 2012

Thankee kindly.
Makoto's unfortunately just kinda bad, since her combos lack range and don't have Morgana's speed or Ryuji's durability. If you're just trying to level her up for her Mastery Arts, probably just use lots of Technicals with her by burning an enemy and then spamming her Nuclear skills. She's ultimately worse than Morgana at it though, since he gets Technical Adept.

ApplesandOranges
Jun 22, 2012

Thankee kindly.
Sophia and Morgana basically ping-pong for 'best healer' throughout the game. Sophia actually has the lead for a long time, because she learns Boost and Amp extremely quickly (I think she learns Bless Boost in her teens), free Rakunda is very very nice, and even when capping off, Angelic Grace makes her better defensively and endgame stuff is weak to Bless more than Wind. She's very good at pumping out damage due to generally high raw magical stats and the Boost/Amp combo until everyone starts to catch up in terms of skills.

On Merciless NG+ however, Morgana takes the lead. Salvation is a much better heal and he rips through anything that's Burned and not immune to Wind, and he has a physical move if you're extremely desperate. Sophia's dodgier, but that's not really that big of a difference in NG+. Also, access to Debilitate means that Sophia's free Rakunda is no longer that useful.

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ApplesandOranges
Jun 22, 2012

Thankee kindly.
Sophie and Ann can be valuable to main early on since they can unlock Rakunda and Tarunda as part of their combos, saving you a lot of SP with those useful skills.

Technical combos can be extremely handy to break through an enemy's shields if you're still trying to figure out their weakness. Using Ann to Burn followed by Morgana or Joker to capitalize on Wind is a solid option since it won't dispel Burn (unlike most technical combos).

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