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 Previously on Let's Play Phoenix Command: AR-15 vs. 30-50 Feral Hogs A few years back on a different forum someone, spurred on by a thread that had argued the Wehrmacht circa 1944 could take Saddam's armed forces circa 1991, proposed that the Wehrmacht circa 1944 could take the US armed forces circa 1991. This person was rightly ridiculed for this continued insistence that, among other things, a platoon of Abrams tanks was actually not the worst matchup for a platoon of PzKpfW Tiger Bs, the mighty German heavy tank of WWII. Someone also posted this video by former US Army thinkpiece writer, Illuminati truther, and M113 fetishist Mike Sparks. Now, the most absurdly detail-obsessed tabletop tank simulator ever made just so happens to have data sheets for both the M1A1 Abrams and the King Tiger--and a very pretty girl encouraged me to actually run this matchup. So let's Dare to Compare, M1A1 Abrams vs. PzKpfW Tiger Ausf. B!   This is what vehicles look like in Phoenix Command. It goes on for two more pages each with hit location tables, tables for determining which hit location table to use, tables for determining impact angles, and weapon tables, all referencing a lengthy series of tables for determining hit probabilities taking into account effects of range, wind, and weather, crew skill, optics systems, movement speed and terrain, target speed and projectile velocity, suspension disable chances, roadwheel disable chances, engine disable chances, ammunition fire chances, ammunition explosion chances, crew disable & survival chances (with and without helmets) and more. The Scenario Near Puffendorf, Aachen, on 17 NOV 44... Elements of Schwere Panzerabteilung 506 are moving west to support 9. Panzerdivision's counterattack against the US 2nd Armored Division in Puffendorf. Simultaneously, a modern US National Guard tank platoon on exercises are magically transported to Aachen on the 17th of November 1944. Having not realised what's going on, they continue their previous orders to move south.  This map represents the terrain near Puffendorf. Each small hex is approximately 20 meters across. The green hexes you see a lot of represent regular open ground with no cover. The brown hexes represent higher elevation. A dark edge on a brown hex represents a cliffside. Tanks can only traverse these once in one direction. The yellow hexes are grain fields. The blue-green hexes with small depictions of grassy knolls on them represent brush with heavy undergrowth. The dark green represents forests. The open ground with four darker green spots on them are orchards. At this time of year they're just a collection of spindly trees that weakly obscure vision through them. There are also unmetalled roads, hedgerows (green), stone walls (grey), wooden houses (brown), stone houses (grey), and some shellholes to the north. The combatants are: Elements of s.Pz.Abt. 506: Tiger II B 'Annelise', crewed by Adalbert (Commander), Adolf (Gunner), Albert (Loader), Alexander (Driver), and Andreas (Bow Gunner) Tiger II B 'Brigitte', crewed by Bruno, Bernhard, Bodo, Berthold, and Balder Tiger II B 'Clara', crewed by Carl, Christoph, Claus, Conrad, and Christian Tiger II B 'Dora', crewed by Dieter, Detlef, Dirk, Dominik, and Dietrich A mix of veterans from the well regarded s.Pz.Abt. 506 mixed with fresh and rush-trained conscripts they have an overall morale/skill level of Line/10. They are played by FrangibleCover. They enter on the road to superhex FF5 along the eastern edge:  Time Traveling Yanks: M1A1 Abrams 'Alleycat', crewed by Anthony (Commander), Austin (Gunner), Arin (Loader), and Alex (Driver) M1A1 Abrams 'Bulldog', crewed by Bridger, Bill, Bishop, and Brennan M1A1 Abrams 'Cobra', crewed by Colin, Coby, Chuck, and Cameron M1A1 Abrams 'Dumbo', crewed by Darrin, Doug, Darnell, and Dana National guardsmen and women are well trained but have no combat experience and aren't expecting combat and have an overall morale/skill level of Line/10. They are played by Hypnobeard. They enter on superhex Q10 on the northern edge:  TURN 1 Each turn represents 8 seconds.   Frangible orders the Königstiger platoon to move towards the northwest exit along the road. The Tigers have a maximum speed of 3.6 hexes per turn on unmetalled roads, but have to slow to half that to have any hope of making the turn. The Abrams are much more agile and drive down the road at a spirited 3 hexes per turn. Sensing something is amiss, Hypnobeard has the Abrams' start Thermal Imaging Warmup, a detail that is actually not modeled. Frangible: "Oh good, we're going to start by either throwing a track or having a 200 ton RTA. Extremely Tiger." TURN 2   Annelise completes the rest of the turn and, coming out of it quite fast, slows down to 0.9 hexes/turn in anticipation of the next turn. Clara follows Annelise's tracks and completes half the turn, while Dora and Brigitte dutifully follow. It's a beautiful day and not an enemy in sight. The Americans continue merrily down the road at 4 hexes/turn. TURN 3   The German procession continues, with Annelise accelerating to 2 hexes/turn now that she's completed the turn. However, Brigitte has run into a problem... Phoenix Command Mechanized Combat System models the traction of vehicles, taking into account ground pressure and terrain type. This is represented by a percentage chance that a tank will slip, slide, spin in place, or otherwise lose traction against the ground and come to a sudden halt. For a Tiger II on a packed earth road, this comes to a 1% chance of a stall per turn--and Brigitte failed. Her crew a tossed about : a harmless but unpleasant surprise. Meanwhile, the American platoon reaches the shelled are and Bulldog slows to 2 hexes/turn in anticipation of navigating between the gouges in the landscape. TURN 4   Bruno swears and shouts orders and curses at Berthold, who tries to unstuck the Tiger. There's a 99% chance this will succeed, and Berthold succeeds. The American platoon slows to 2 hexes/turn. Bulldog tries and succeeds in finding a good path between the shellholes while Alleycat and Dumbo drive off the road to bypass the difficult terrain. TURN 5   Annelise drives into the turn and completes half of it, then comes to a sudden halt, tossing its crew around. Some of the packed earth has slid away underneath her tracks. Clara and Dora follow behind, watching the lead tank make an unexpected stop. Brigitte, having recovered from the stall, drives into the turn. The weight of three heavy Tiger IIs had already disturbed the packed earth, and a fourth Tiger is the straw that breaks the camel's back. Brigitte lurches and comes to a complete stop halfway through the turn. (There was a 2% chance of a stall, and I rolled a 02 for both Annelise and Brigitte.) Frangible: "At this point I think it's traditional to bail out, walk home and blame enemy Jabos" Alleycat and Dumbo manage to avoid the shellholes. Cobra slows to 2 hexes/turn and makes several sharp turns to avoid the depressions. Bulldog drives over some loose soil as it accelerates to 4 hexes/turn, but it's not really a problem. TURN 6   Clara turns 30 degrees and drives off the road to avoid crashing into Annelise. While Adalbert barks orders, Alex changes gear and works the clutch to get Annelise moving again. Berthold makes Brigitte's Maybach engine roar, downing out Bruno's anger, as he declutches and sends Brigitte forward again. Bulldog and Alleycat drive forward 2 hexes, all smooth travel. Dumbo attempts to make the through the centre of U6, but these roads were not designed for a column of 60-ton vehicles and artillery shelling, and the soil gives way (a roll of 02), bringing Dumbo to a complete stop. Cameron, in the middle of finding a path around all the shells (which she manages fine), steps on the breaks to maintain distance to Dumbo. Colin and Chuck lurch forward like grass under heavy wind, but no injuries aside from pride. It's at this point that Cameron realizes (with a roll of 01) that one of the tracks has dug itself into the soil. TURN 7   Annelise turns along the road and drives forward two hexes without problem, while Clara takes advantage of the advanced Tiger II transmission and makes a 60 degree neutral turn without much issue. Dora patiently waits for the platoon to form up, while Brigitte completes the turn in FF5 and advances. Hypnobeard has the American platoon halt and wait for Cobra and Dumbo to recover. Hypnobeard: "There is light razzing on the interunit radio net." TURN 8   Clara completes her neutral turn and Conrad steps on the pedal. The mighty steel beast lurches forward and mounts the road, which brings it to a halt as the tracks grind at the side of the road. Dora waits patiently as Brigitte drives into the second turn. Safe on the road, Annelise, Dora, and Brigitte manage to form up with the stalled Clara. (On Earth Tiger IIs have a 4% stall chance and I rolled a 03.) Frangible: "Oh for Christ's sake!" After some light razzing on the net, the turbine-engines of Dumbo and Cobra roar as the two tanks rush forward with the kind of speed and mobility they were built for. Bulldog and Alleycat, seeing the speed, roll forward to form up the platoon. TURN 9   Clara recovers from her stall. The American platoon accelerates to a brisk 4 hexes/turn and encounters no problems with the hard-packed earth roads. Frangible: "On we go!" TURN 10   The German platoon accelerates to 1 hex/turn and continues down the road with uneventful stalling rolls. The American platoon has no problem thundering down the road at 4 hexes/turn then decelerating to 2 MHPT in anticipation of the coming stop. TURN 11   The Germans continue down the road. The American platoon advances the final 2 hexes and decelerates to a complete stop. At this point Hypnobeard wondered what he could see. I made this visual aid, then promised myself never to make another ever again:  As far as the Americans can tell, there's nobody here but a few stray birds. TURN 12   The Germans continue down the road at 2 hexes/turn. The Americans accelerate back up to 3 hexes/turn and heads directly east. Frangible: "Holy poo poo the speed!" TURN 13   FrangibleCover orders all the hatches open and heads on swivels to keep an eye out for possible Amerikaner to the west as the platoon continues down the road. Extra attention is paid to the northwest. The American platoon accelerates to 5 hexes/turn and thunders along the road at an astonishing speed. TURN 14   It's smooth sailing, uh, driving. Hypnobeard wants to accelerate to 6 hexes/turn but that's not really possible because of the coming sharp turns. TURN 15   Vroom vroom! TURN 16  Having slowed to 3 hexes/turn, the American platoon eases in between the generous stone walls lining the roads. It's nice and picturesque, a calm, beautiful, chilly day in late autumn when, suddenly, Bruno yells out "Feintliches Panzer am Nord! Am Nord!" On the American net, Bridger yells "Contact! King Tigers Due south!" Dumbo rolls a 02 and comes to a halt. Frangible: "oh jesus god" Hypnobeard: "lol Dumbo. You're definitely cleaning the latrines tonight." TURN 17  FrangibleCover orders Annelise to floor and escapes behind the trees while traversing the turret like mad, just as Colin was about to hand it off to Cobra's gunner Coby. Alex rolls 15 and gracefully avoiding a stall on flat ground. Brigitte brakes hard and completes the turn, putting her in an excellent position to back into the hedge behind her. Bernhard nearly breaks the lever slewing the turret onto one of the American heavy tanks. He makes some fine adjustments, then slams the trigger. With the turret practically on top of Bulldog, it takes just a quarter-turn to lay the gun and another to aim and fire. Moving at 2 hexes/turn on road restricts Bernard to -6 accuracy, plus the size modifier of the Abrams at 60 degree hull facing and and 15 degree turret facing, which is +21. The Effective Accuracy rating is 15, for a 34% hit chance according. Bernard rolls 95, which sends the shot flying off into the wild blue yonder. Bodo grabs another shell and lays it on the breech block. Then the crew compartment is filled with several kilograms of burning uranium fragments and spalling turret armour: Dumbo has unstalled and has had a lot of time to aim. Barely moving herself and aiming at an almost stationary target limits gives Doug an accuracy rating of 15 (+10 from morale, -1 for 12 hexes range, +6 for half a second of M21-assisted aim, limited to 20-5 from being in motion and 12+3 from APFSDS against a slow-moving target at less than 20 hexes), and Brigitte at 56 degree hull and 2.5 degree turret facing is a big +21 target. The resulting +36 accuracy rating is off the scale, for a 100% chance of hitting. A hit location roll of 19-22 leaves a neatly punched hole in Brigitte's turret. Bruno is mostly unscathed, while Bernhard faills his roll and passes out from shock for the next 300 turns. Bodo fails badly and burns to death. Clara brakes hard, and Carl directs Cristoph onto the lead American heavy tank, just barely making it in time to lay the crosshairs onto it. "Feuer!" A thundering din rings out. The calculation is the same, but Christoph rolls 33 and slams an 88 mm APCR shell, the pride of German arms manufacturing, into Bulldog. The random hit location roll is 85-90, bouncing between two road wheels and the suspension. Unfortunately, Christoph failed both 46% chances to disable the drivetrain. The Honeywell AGT 1500 turbine makes a high-pitched scream as Alec steps on the pedal and takes Alleycat down a wide turn along the road. Anthony hands off a target to the gunner, who quickly brackets the German tank in the crosshairs: at this range, there's no need to lase the target or wait for the ballistic computer to tell him what he already knows: Austin pulls the trigger. The accuracy is limited by Alleycat's gun bouncing up and down. At 3 hexes/turn speed this is a -14 accuracy, +20 for a Tiger II at 16 degrees hull and 3 degrees turret facing, and +20 for the M21 digital-analogue fire-control system the Abrams are so famous for. This corresponds to a 97% chance of hitting, and Austin rolls 26. A tremendous flash, like standing in front of an artillery cannon, lights up the countryside. Carl's lunch makes a heroic but ultimately fraught attempt to escape. It's only later Carl realizes that the ringing in his ears isn't St Peter's bells, but Clara, and the shot ricocheted off an armour plate at a jaunty angle. Dominik stands on the brakes and tosses Dora into a sharp turn, practically landing Detleft's sights right on top of the American tank. A few fine adjustments, and an 88 mm shell rings out. Same calculation again: a 34% chance to hit. At the same time, Bulldog rips forward and slides in along a fallow field. The turret stays locked on one of the boxy German relics as Bill centers the crosshairs. A second later, the drab, grey countryside lights up from the incandescent flash of the M256 120 mm gun. Bulldog is moving on flat ground and has a -15 penalty for being in motion, limiting the accuracy to a "mere" 91%. APFSDS and APCR pass each other in flight. There's a horrible clang inside Bulldog. Confusion abounds for a fraction of a second, before the rumble of the turbine engine fades away and the electronic systems flicker for a moment before the auxiliary power unit kicks in. Inside Dora, Dominik and Dietrich die instantly. The long rod continues into the ammunition compartment, lighting it on fire, before making a clean hole through the Maybach engine block. The rules don't strictly cover this, but glancing at the relevant numbers I think what's left of the penetrator comes out the read and scatters across the field to the south. A flickering red-orange glow emanates from Dora's open turret hatches as the turret crew scrambles out. (Detlef rolled 30 with a hit location roll of 61-54, which goes through a road wheel and the hull side before hitting the engine and fuel lines. There was a 46% chance to disable the drivetrain--failed--an 89% chance to knock out the engine--and a 1% chance to light the fuel on fire--failed. Bill rolled a 05 with a hit location of 35-59, sending a round through the lower glacis, into the fighting compartment with a 56% chance of killing the driver and bow gunner--both failed--continuing into the hull ammunition storage with APFSDS having a 100% chance of causing a fire and a 25% chance of causing an explosion, before hitting the engine with a disabling chance of 89% or higher--I forgot to record the exact number.) TURN 18  Clara comes to a stop. As soon as Claus has finished reloading, Christoph slams the trigger. The accuracy is only limited by having to track a slowly moving Bulldog and there's a 91% chance to hit. A roll of 60 is a hit, but the shot bounces off the weirdly shaped American turret (hit location 17-02). FrangibleCover has ordered Carl and Christian to hose down Bulldog's turret with machine gun fire in an attempt to shoot out the American optics. Limiting the shots to the turret gives a 68% chance to hit, and both hit. Inside Bulldog, frantic attempts are made to restart the engine as metallic plinks rain down on the turret. The APU is slow to start, but Bill has almost brought the crosshairs into Dora. Almost... almost... It's a 97% chance to hit. Bill takes it, then realises that while he was focused on lining up the shot, men in black jumpsuits were already bailing from the tank. No matter: what's done is done and moments later the Tiger II bursts into flames. Meanwhile, Alleycat brakes hard. Austin takes careful aim on Clara for 1.5 seconds while she waits for Arin to load a shell. The moment she hears 'up' she gently squeezes the trigger. Alleycat rocks on its suspension as APFSDS flies out at over 4,000 m/s. Against a large stationary target at close range, and with the tank barely moving under her, Austin's has a 100% chance of hitting. Cobra has also moved up and can just see Clara behind Bulldog--and at 97% Coby takes the shot. Carl smirks as the thick frontal armour, made from the best German steel effortlessly bounces a 120 mm artillery shell. (Alleycat's shot, rolling 64-02, a glancing hit.) Then, suddenly, Clara's fighting compartment becomes red hot. (Cobra's shot, rolling 20-49, a nice and flat part of the Tiger's turret.) Carl, full of uranium and Krupp steel, fails his survival roll and dies on the spot, while the Christoph and Claus become incapacitated with pain for 150 and 40 turns respectively. Annelise slows to 2 hexes per turn and turns sharply along the road. Adolf adjusts gun onto the edge of the stone wall and waits. As an American tank rolls into view, he fires a snap shot at it. Fire from a Tiger moving 2 hexes per turn on a road is limited to -11 accuracy, and the Cobra is a compact tank at +17 from an oblique angle. This gives a 6% chance to hit. 70 doesn't really cut it, and the shell goes somewhere in the direction of the Denmark. Albert begins to load another shell. Dumbo takes aim at the rearmost enemy tank as it barrels down the road. With much of its side showing, it's a large target and even with the fire-on-the-move penalty it's a 99% hit chance. Aboard Brigitte, Balder and Bruno are trying to crawl around Bernard so they can shove Bodo's corpse out an open hatch and get to the KwK. It's heavy, unpleasant work, Bernard's whimpers echoing inside the steel behemoth and Bodo's corpse slick with blood and waxy with burnt skin. Still, they manage to get his torso through the loader's hatch so they can man the KwK 43, when Dumbo's shot hits, shattering the suspension and unleashing a cone of burning uranium dust on the ammunition storage. Does anyone smell smo--and then the tank explodes. TURN 19  Bulldog finally comes to a halt and the APU kicks in. Bridger takes command of the turret traverse and deploys smoke in the direction of the last Tiger II, then turns the turret back and starts hosing down the Nazis fleeing from Dora with machine gun fire, a task Bill and Bishop are only too happy to join him in. Dumbo starts to line up on Annelise, but then loses contact behind a thick smokescreen. Annelise comes to a halt, putting its engine block between it and the Americans. Adalbert eyes the leafless apple trees critically and orders Adolf to switch targets to the closest American tank. The massive tower of steel swings. Albert says "Klar!" and with a yell Adalbert orders the creme de la creme of German cannons to lay waste to the American Schweinhunde. Accuracy is limited to +2 for shooting at the fast-moving Alleycat--and with the Alleycat's turret tracking Annelise, there's a +20 size modifier. Luckily Adalbert knows that the American has just fired and can't possibly reload a gun that big faster than Albert can reload an 8,8cm. There's an 81% chance to hit. Alleycat revs the turbine and accelerates to 3 MHPT. Arin loads a shell while Austin slews the turret over to where the last Tiger II went off to. Alleycat spearheads a cloud of thick white smoke that Anthony probably shouldn't be breathing, but his tank keeps ahead of the noxious fumes. Over the nose of the turret--just a football field away--he can see the Tiger II and its commander, black cap and all, showing its rear. The 88 mm gun tracks his every moment, then lights up. After passing between three hexes of apple trees (or maybe they are pears, strikes Adalbert in a fancy) effortlessly (83% chance not to strike a tree per hex!) a roll of 95 sends the APCR flying harmlessly over Tony's head. A tremendous flash lights up when Alleycat's own gun fires. It's a 95% chance to hit. Cobra turns off the road to avoid Allycat and moves in a rough right echelon . Colin guides Coby onto the remaining Tiger II. After a second of aim, the Abrams rocks on its suspension as an M829A1 flies out with a 97% hit chance. "Schnell schnell schnell!"--Albert is bringing up the next shell when the world turns bright white. A horrible ringing sound resonates through Annelise as Cobra's APFSDS slaps the the rear side of the turret and ricochets away. Then another flash and another hollow din as Alleycat hits. Horrible screams echo from within the steel casket, as self-igniting uranium shards turn the air unbreathable. Albert dies instantly when he fails a 51% survival chance with a roll of 91, while Adalbert and Adolf fail their rolls and pass out from shock. Then the turret ammunition stowage fails its 10% chance of not lighting aflame. Alexander and Andreas prudently decide to abandon the vehicle, barely making it out in time. Through the viewfinder Austin can see flames lick up through the turret hatch, consuming the Nazi commander. FrangibleCover: "81% why should we hit" Hypnobeard and FrangibleCover decided to call it here, after I mentioned something about not wanting to spend another two hours modelling four M1A1 Abrams tanks turning a Tiger that can't fight into a pincushion. FrangibleCover: "I think at this point honour has been assuaged. The Americans have been given a bloody nose for the permanent loss of no German tanks." AMERICAN VICTORY!
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Feb 19, 2021 18:54
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Beautiful.
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Feb 19, 2021 19:14
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I love it. Thanks for the writeup. 
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Feb 19, 2021 19:18
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This was loads of fun to do! I'd definitely do more of this if it didn't take as much of PIAT's time.
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Feb 19, 2021 19:38
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Same here. Had a blast (literally!), but I know it was super timeconsuming for LatwPIAT.
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Feb 19, 2021 20:26
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Amazing
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Feb 20, 2021 00:31
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This is a historic thread, and I would love to see more. Hopefully you guys have more time soon.
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Feb 20, 2021 01:22
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 Fantastic thread, would read again.
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Feb 20, 2021 02:31
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Well there's that mythical German hardware reliability.
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Feb 20, 2021 04:06
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That. That was art. Tell me that you have another one of these cooking. Please!
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Feb 20, 2021 05:44
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Does the system include rules for tankettes? Those things always put a smile on my face.
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Feb 20, 2021 09:53
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APFSDS don't glance, devs pls fix.
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Feb 20, 2021 09:58
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This was great! I'm actually a little surprised that the KTs managed to bounce any shots at all, but I guess even the best shells can get got by weird angles. Though now I really have to wonder just how Wehraboo-poisoned you have to be to expect this sort of matchup to go the other way
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Feb 20, 2021 13:53
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Thank you so much for all the kind words!  HereticMIND posted:That. That was art. Tell me that you have another one of these cooking. Please! Nothing yet. It's great fun but play-by-post isn't fast in the first place and I spend a lot of time scrolling through PDFs to find the right table. That's mostly on me: I ran a game in person once where I had printed out all the tables and made a bunch of play aids and three players versus a handful of NPCs was doable in a few hours. These last two have also been very much meme games, and I've run out of memes. I do kind of dream of doing some small unit actions a bit like the Combat Mission games, but I'd have to get a co-GM to By popular demand posted:Does the system include rules for tankettes? Those things always put a smile on my face. Tankettes are the cutest and the system doesn't have any.  Phoenix Command was never super popular and the company making it shut down after only four WWII supplements. There's writeups for Shermans, T-34s, Panzer IVs, Panthers, Tigers, KV-1s, and IS-2s. I've tried to make a couple more but it's a lot of work. Perestroika posted:This was great! I'm actually a little surprised that the KTs managed to bounce any shots at all, but I guess even the best shells can get got by weird angles. Every tank in the game has a has a hit location called "Graze" that does nothing except make the crew roll morale and possibly detonate HE shells. For example, an M1A1 hit on the Turret Front hit location has an 18% of being hit in a Graze location. I tend to fluff these as ricochets from shallow angle hits, but they can probably also include stuff like chipping an edge or blowing off a track guard. I guess mostly this tells me I should occasionally find-replace "ricochet" with "gouges a shallow channel in the surface of the armour". There was also a super shallow angle hit on the rear turret side. The Tiger II's turret slopes slightly inward towards the rear, which makes every angle-off shot from the front region come in at a very shallow angle. The effective slope made the armour almost twice as thick as the APFSDS could penetrate.
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Feb 20, 2021 14:25
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Feb 20, 2021 15:48
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Perestroika posted:This was great! I'm actually a little surprised that the KTs managed to bounce any shots at all, but I guess even the best shells can get got by weird angles. I'll cheerfully take a look at the numerical statting of the tanks and see what bounces come from where, that seems like an interesting time. quote:Though now I really have to wonder just how Wehraboo-poisoned you have to be to expect this sort of matchup to go the other way Not just wehraboo poisoned, at least from the blacktail video PIAT posted, there's a lot of cut-rate derivatives of Pierre Sprey's brand of "analysis" that I can get into, it's a wild methodology. This is an intellectual tradition that claims the M1 is a downgrade from the M60 as a heads up of where it's going. LatwPIAT posted:I do kind of dream of doing some small unit actions a bit like the Combat Mission games, but I'd have to get a co-GM to I volunteer! quote:Phoenix Command was never super popular and the company making it shut down after only four WWII supplements. There's writeups for Shermans, T-34s, Panzer IVs, Panthers, Tigers, KV-1s, and IS-2s. I've tried to make a couple more but it's a lot of work.
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Feb 20, 2021 17:14
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Oh my god this is the most amazing thing I've seen since the 30-50 Wild Hogs thread.
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Feb 20, 2021 17:25
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30-50 Nazis charge your position, can you save your children?
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Feb 20, 2021 17:40
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This was pretty cool, but next time can you simulate a fairer fight? Maybe a starving polar bear versus a newborn penguin, for example.
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Feb 20, 2021 17:50
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ninjahedgehog posted:This was pretty cool, but next time can you simulate a fairer fight? Maybe a starving polar bear versus a newborn penguin, for example.
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Feb 20, 2021 18:08
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I mean yeah, even with the unfavorable encounter start one of the Abrams was disabled. Frang wasn't rolling well, which didn't help--I pretty much had 90%+ shots so their early stuff had to count.
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Feb 20, 2021 18:21
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FrangibleCover posted:The fight wasn't quite as unbalanced as it looked, the poor modelling of sabot means that the KTs can bounce some shots under good conditions, and the early Abrams armour can't stand up to the long 88mm at close range from the side or rear. If Hypno had decided to turn down the first track south instead of going east before going south and running into my flank then I'd have had some fairly good rear aspect shots on his tanks and the opening volley would have done serious damage. Yeah, this encounter was about as favourable to the King Tigers as they could hope for without giving them an intentional tactical advantage. Decently clear terrain, good weather and daylight, and a meeting encounter at short range all came together to give them as good a chance as they could get. Had the fight occurred at a longer range or with worse visibility, things would have gone even worse for them.
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Feb 20, 2021 18:28
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This could be me misreading the mechanics as presented, but it looks like the Abrams' big advantages were mostly their fire-control computers and (possibly) stabilizers? Well, that, and the decision of the dice to make the Germans miss every possible shot.
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Feb 20, 2021 20:09
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Perestroika posted:Yeah, this encounter was about as favourable to the King Tigers as they could hope for without giving them an intentional tactical advantage. Decently clear terrain, good weather and daylight, and a meeting encounter at short range all came together to give them as good a chance as they could get. Had the fight occurred at a longer range or with worse visibility, things would have gone even worse for them. Clearly this means the successor should be a Predator-themed nighttime engagement between one Abrams and a platoon of King Tigers. Let us see what the little image intensification, thermal imaging and infra-red imaging notes on the Abrams mean.  I am curious how the Abrams' side armor is represented, because there are angles where I don't think its engine is vulnerable to a KT. The Abrams has a ton of mobility related advantages, and for anything except a snap shot its aiming is vastly faster and better than what a King Tiger can manage.
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Feb 20, 2021 20:51
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An infantry engagement would probably be interesting and somewhat more fair. But the system doesn't support infantry does it? E: Also a bunch more fiddly poo poo to deal with I'm sure.
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Feb 20, 2021 21:05
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ChaseSP posted:An infantry engagement would probably be interesting and somewhat more fair. But the system doesn't support infantry does it? you bet your butt Phoenix Command supports infantry combat!
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Feb 20, 2021 21:14
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Dance Officer posted:you bet your butt Phoenix Command supports infantry combat!
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Feb 20, 2021 22:21
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It has rules to represent infantry combat. Support is what you do for the GM as they undertake the task.
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Feb 20, 2021 23:02
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Yeah, you'd need another GM to handle the infantry stuff, I think. Not that there's any volunteers.. shifty look
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Feb 20, 2021 23:16
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bibliosabreur posted:This could be me misreading the mechanics as presented, but it looks like the Abrams' big advantages were mostly their fire-control computers and (possibly) stabilizers? Well, that, and the decision of the dice to make the Germans miss every possible shot. The three advantages that mattered were a really powerful gun that could turn basically every hit into a kill, cancelling penalties for firing at moving targets, and cancelling penalties for firing while being a moving target. This let the Abrams be really difficult targets to hit while also making highly accurate shots that almost always killed. The Tigers had to come to a full stop to make shots anywhere near accurate, and it was still difficult because the Abrams were moving. If the Tigers had actually managed to hit anything, it would also have become a lot more apparent that the Abrams has ridiculously tough armour. On a hit to the Turret Front hit location table, there's a 19% chance that the Tiger would hit a location where it's possible to penetrate into the crew compartment at point blank range. 5% is the turret cupola and 8% is the turret ring (which is a bit of a weakpoint on the Abrams), and for the remaining 6% it's completely impenetrable at over 15 degrees angle off, and even on a head-on shot there's only a 30% to penetrate at point blank. Meanwhile the Tiger has a limited number of locations on the Turret Front hit location table where a head-on hit won't certainly penetrate into the fighting compartment from up to 2400 yards away: a 6% glance location and a very thick 10% location on the upper face. Some very convenient angling can improve this a bit, but the Americans can also fire HEAT, which really only cares about that 6% glance location. (And this is Phoenix Command underestimating the armour thickness and penetration of modern vehicles like the Abrams.) xthetenth posted:Clearly this means the successor should be a Predator-themed nighttime engagement between one Abrams and a platoon of King Tigers. Let us see what the little image intensification, thermal imaging and infra-red imaging notes on the Abrams mean. If it was T-80s vs Abrams or Leopard 2s at night it would be pretty interesting: the NATO tanks can see a little further at night, but clever use of terrain would let the Soviets negate the NATO advantage. Against Tigers... less Predator, more Alien without Ripley.
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Feb 20, 2021 23:21
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LatwPIAT posted:Against Tigers... less Predator, more Alien without Ripley. So, the tigers would be more like trucks against the tank, without anything that can scratch their enemy, and are not supposed to fight anything in the first place?
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Feb 21, 2021 00:09
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LatwPIAT posted:Meanwhile the Tiger has a limited number of locations on the Turret Front hit location table where a head-on hit won't certainly penetrate into the fighting compartment from up to 2400 yards away: a 6% glance location and a very thick 10% location on the upper face. Some very convenient angling can improve this a bit, but the Americans can also fire HEAT, which really only cares about that 6% glance location. I'm really interested in how PC represents the side of the abrams, because it's moderately complex, with the outer skirts being laminated armor that does a lot of the work and the front two thirds or so being thicker, which means the hull coverage of the full thickness is very much angle dependent, and its sides are quite sturdy from a 60 degree angle between the angle increasing the thickness and the spacing meaning you can't really hit anything if you go through the thin parts.
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Feb 21, 2021 00:38
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The real question: Did you tell Hypnobeard what he was up against beforehand, or did you just tell him to move south and surprise him?
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Feb 21, 2021 00:40
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xthetenth posted:I'm really interested in how PC represents the side of the abrams, because it's moderately complex, with the outer skirts being laminated armor that does a lot of the work and the front two thirds or so being thicker, which means the hull coverage of the full thickness is very much angle dependent, and its sides are quite sturdy from a 60 degree angle between the angle increasing the thickness and the spacing meaning you can't really hit anything if you go through the thin parts. The skirts seem to be treated as being of uniform thickness (except for over the idler wheel, where they're a bit thinner), at 576 AP Protection Factor and 3500 HEAT Protection Factor. At 60 degrees angle off the side (i.e. 30 degrees angle off the front), this increases to 2600 PF-AP and 17500 PF-HEAT. There's not really any special rules for handling it, but the high HEAT protection is clearly the effect of composites and stand-off. MrYenko posted:The real question: Did you tell Hypnobeard what he was up against beforehand, or did you just tell him to move south and surprise him? Both players knew what the premise of the scenario was.
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Feb 21, 2021 01:03
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Fantastic thread, incredible writeup, nice work!
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Feb 21, 2021 01:51
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Perestroika posted:Though now I really have to wonder just how Wehraboo-poisoned you have to be to expect this sort of matchup to go the other way Okay, I feel like elaborating a bit more on the amazing tradition of analysis that the video LatwPIAT mentioned is a part. The creator, blacktail defense may or may not be Mike Sparks, I'm personally of the opinion that he's not, but what's obvious is that his stuff sits firmly in the millieu of Mike Sparks and Pierre Sprey. His videos argue very similarly to some of Sprey's stuff, which is a really bonkers sort of decades late relitigation of vietnam and late Cold War budget battles. Warning, what follows is a massive TL;DR. Don't feel bad for not reading it, it's a mess. From this guy's perspective, the Bradley, M1, Stryker and so on are overcomplicated messes that cannot be actually kept ready to roll in the field. The problem is that he's a nerd whose main sources of information are a consultant still trying to get fame by reducing everything to a vietnam era budget battle and saying he's the guy who designed the F-16. He tastefully declines to mention that his idea of the F-16 carried two heaters and a cannon to minimize weight, and that he objected to things like BVR and strike capability. He probably loathes the modern F-16 with conformal fuel tanks and AIM-120 capability if he bothers to pay attention outside being all the F-35 haters' favorite pundit. Anyway, Pierre Sprey's brand of analysis looks like this: http://pogoarchives.org/labyrinth/09/07.pdf His understanding is a dichotomy of cheap winners vs expensive losers. Expensive things are overcomplicated by definition, and they're large and ungainly. He's stuck in the vietnam era, so things before then are proven tech, and things after then are overcomplicated whizz-bang gizmos. He also doesn't know much about WWII, as you might be able to tell by the beautiful fractal of incorrectness that is the idea that in WWII Japanese Destroyers beat US Cruisers in isolation, and that this is a victory of simple, robust tech over highly complicated wonder weapons. Destroyers, which are Japanese, have a highly reliable, lethal, large torpedo. Cruisers, which are American, have no torpedo and are slower, bigger targets. The Long Lance is apparently highly reliable, not a bleeding edge development project that was finicky and pushing the limits of the tech base it was built on and prone to calamitous explosions. Radar does not exist, and neither do the battles in which Japan got blindsided at night by a combination of gunnery and stealth torpedo tactics once the US got used to the advanced capabilities of Japanese weapons. But that's not why I picked that slide deck as an example here, the "in depth comparison" between the M1A2 and M48A5 is. You'd think this might be a foregone conclusion, but you'd be right! You see, Sprey has chosen his battlefield with great care. He rates the two tanks on those well known six dimensions of tank performance: operational mobility (read fuel efficiency), numbers engaged, machine gun effectiveness, firefight mobility, rate of kill vs. multiple targets at real combat ranges, and crew survival. So how do the competitors fare? Let's see! Operational mobility, the M1 needs an hour's refueling every 3 hours apparently, and an hour of filter cleaning every 2 hours. I'm sure this will come as a surprise to everyone who's taken a cursory look at operation desert storm. The M48 wins with its performance of (UNSPECIFIED). Numbers engaged, he claims 85% vs 45% availability rate advantage for the M48 and that it's 1/3s the cost, which means you can apparently field 6 times as many. No discussion of how they find the 6 times as many crew, provide for the fuel and maintenance needs, fill out all the supporting arms in proportion, and so on. Machine gun effectiveness, the M48 carries 200% more MG rounds and can sweep ditches with MGs. That this makes the M2 medium the best tank of WWII is implied but not stated. The M48 is three for three at this point, can its streak continue? Firefight mobility is a ?. One of six dimensions of tank combat performance, and he doesn't really know which is better. He says the M1A2 throws tracks in maneuvering, truly an unique issue for this one tank, but it has a small edge in short dash acceleration. Rate of Kill vs. multiple targets at real combat ranges naturally goes to the M48, with its slightly faster loading rate, same accuracy on the battlesight (which I assume is the tertiary optic on the M1A2 for after the multiple FCS linked systems fail because he doesn't believe technology ever works, and I guess we're disregarding ballistics too), more ammo, and an apparent high rate of failure with 120mm caseless ammo. I will note that yet again, the 37mm M3 on the M2 medium is better than the M4's 75mm by this standard. Crew Survival goes to the M48, of course, you've gotten the feel for this. Not one live firing test against a combat-loaded M1, he says in the year 2007 after the M1 has been in multiple battles and caught its fair share of modern munitions. The M1 is better against infantry hand-held anti-tank rounds from the front but worse from rear, an interesting phrasing of nearly invulnerable from the front aspect and having rear protection that's a bit more useless. Both are penetrable by modern tank cannon rounds, the M1's exhaust is visible to IR at 3 miles, and the M1 is much more flammable apparently, a conclusion reached from ???. I am genuinely not joking when I say by these criteria, behold the greatest tank of WWII:  Normally when I do that it's a convoluted troll where I phrase it such that I can count the M4 Sherman as a simple later development on the same powertrain, but I am actually genuinely of the belief that these criteria are best fit by the M2 medium. It's light, reliable, cheap, its gun fires quickly, it has MG ammo galore, with specific deflector plates to hose down ditches even better. No tank in the war is immune to modern tank cannon rounds from all angles, so there's really nothing that can beat the M2's insurmountable lead in the early parts. Now how does an impressionable nerd exposed to this genius methodology respond? Well, he doesn't get a knowledge of WWII, because that's clearly not required, and he innately susses out that anything from before Vietnam is proven tech. So the King Tiger is a mistake, but so is the Abrams, and everything bad is the same amount of bad. So actually both tanks are the same! Blacktail takes the tack that "These two tanks are eerily similar in size, complexity and density, even having very similar armor thicknesses, and also in design philosophy." So he makes the following comparisons: Mobility: Top Speed: 42 MPH > 28 MPH Combat Weight: 72 tons > 77.1 tons Range: 260 miles > 105 miles (No, don't ask how a tank that needs to refuel every three hours and can only do 42 mph can cover 260 miles in those three hours) Power/weight: 21.4 hp/ton > 9 hp/ton Min. Turn Radius: Pivot > 15.7 ft Suspension: Torsion bars = Torsion bars Ground pressure: 15.5 psi < 13.7 psi Clearance: 19 in < 20 in Gradient: 60% < 70% Side Slope: 40% > 30% Vertical obstacle: 48.96 in > 33.46 in Trench: 9 ft < 9.84 ft Fording 4 ft < 5.34 ft Engine: 1500 hp gas turbine > 700 hp gas V12 Torque: 2626 lb/ft^2 > 1225.46 lb/ft^2 Torque/Weight: 36.47 lb/ft/ton > 15.89 lb/ft/ton Transmission: Automatic 4 fwd, 2 rev > Manual 8 fwd, 4 rev Now how does he compare all these many dimensions of performance? Some deep analysis of situations in which one's advantaged over the other? Lol no he adds up the wins and losses. This really isn't that bad in comparison but note that he's assigning a point for which is the lightest, which has the most engine power, and which has the best power/weight ratio! Also, having 5% less clearance has the same impact on the mobility calculation that having less than half the power to weight and two thirds the top speed. Abrams wins though. Firepower Main gun: Smoothbore 120mm/44, 12 rpm > Rifled 88mm/71, 8 rpm Main gun ammo: 40 < 86 Main gun rounds: APFSDS, HEAT, APHE, Canister < AP, APHE, HEAT (I'm guessing he's docking points for a multi-purpose HEAT shell not being a single purpose HE shell. No idea what he means by M1 APHE) Indirect Fire Ability: No < Yes Coaxial gun: 7.62mm, 700 rpm < 7.92mm, 1100 rpm Coaxial Ammo: 10000 rds > 5850 rds Bow gun: None < 7.92mm, 1100 rpm Bow gun ammo: None < 5850 rds AA gun: 12.7mm, 400 rpm > 7.92mm, 900 rpm AA gun ammo: 1100 rds < 5850 rds Missile(s): none = none Missile capacity: none = none (does this mean he did a video on North Korean tank comparisons? Even I don't dare inquire) Gun elevation: +20 > +15 Gun depression: -10 > -7 Oh no, here we go, firepower is a Tiger II win, 7 to 5. Yes, you can say that under this metric, the bow gun is the entire margin of the King Tiger's firepower superiority over the Abrams, and that overall it is possible to make a tank with exceptional MG armament and no main gun that is better than either. I'm glad to see the M16 MGMC can remain my favorite tank with its four .50 machine guns. Or maybe they'd need to be on different mounts? Fire Control 360 degree slew: 9 s > 15 Stabilization: 3 plane > none Dynamic lead: Automatic > none Auto-tracking: no=no Rooftop GPSE: yes=yes Rangefinder: Laser < Stereoscopic (I'm sorry, what. This is just bonkers) Ballistics computer: Digital > Mechanical Hunter-killer capability: Yes > No TC override: Yes = Yes Laser Designator: No = No (Five bucks says this is a gimmick on another tank's brochure that's now just a checkbox for comparison. If someone wants to tell me what a tank can look at with its gunfire control setup and not just fire its main gun at to destroy it, I'm all ears) Huge Abrams win, even with the baffling decision that having a guy get a migrane trying to superpose two images onto each other over the course of multiple seconds is better than pushing a button and getting a range. Protection Amor Type: Laminated RHA Steel + DU > FHA Steel Spall Liners: Yes > No Flammable Fuel: Yes = Yes (I'm captivated by the notion of fuel that doesn't burn) All-Electric Turret Drives: No = No Fire Extinguisher: Halon > None Blow-off Panels: Yes > No Ammo Compartment: Yes > No V-Hull: No = No APS: No = No ERA: No = No Escape hatch: No < Yes Another huge win for the Abrams, even with the odd preference for explosive reactive armor (both armor type and ERA) over non-explosive reactive armor of equivalent protectiveness (just armor type). Ergonomics Crew capacity: 4 < 5 (Yep just stuff another whole-rear end human into the volume, this improves the ergonomics.) Passenger Capacity: None = None Air conditioning: No = No (Note that this is the M1A2 SEP, which definitely does have that) NBC System: Overpressure > None This is a draw, under this metric. Having a radio operator/bow gunner in your legroom is apparently enough to offset being able to survive a chemically contaminated battlefield. Surprise Length: 32.25 ft = 33.63 ft Height 9.47 ft > 10.10 ft Width: 12 ft > 12.33 ft Driver Optics: Night vision > N/A TC Optics: TIS > N/A Gunner Optics: TIS > N/A Landline Cable Jack: No = No Tank-Infantry Telephone: No < Yes APU: Yes > No Top speed: 42 mph > 28 mph (Uhh, sure, let's double count I guess) Combat Weight: 72 tons > 77.1 tons Range: 260 miles > 105 miles Crushing Abrams win. Endurance Fuel Consumption: 8 gpm < 2.6 gpm Track Endurance: 1800 mi > 500 mi MMBF: 152 mi > 15 mi (!) (Exclamation point emphasis not mine, don't worry, this cataclysmic flaw will not be treated as anything more than a checkbox point) Average Main Tube Life: 400 rds < 500 rds Battle Main Tube Life: 50 rds < 250 rds Multi-Fuel: Yes > No Fuel Endurance at idle: 8 hrs < 33 hrs (I remember something about an APU...) Naturally, this gives a 4 to 3 win to the tiger. Being able to drive 15 miles without expecting a failure is overrated. Combat Engineering Mine Plow: Compatible = Compatible Mine Roller: Compatible = Compatible Dozer Blade: Not compatible < Compatible Demolition rounds: APHE < APHE, HE (Yeah, he just doesn't get the whole multi-purpose HEAT thing, and doesn't know about the M908 round they decided to have on hand for fortification destruction. This very specific purpose, and it's really good at destroying concrete) Torque/Weight: 36.47 lb/ft/ton > 15.89 lb/ft/ton In a typo, he says this is a 1-0 win for the Tiger II, where he's actually claiming a 2-1 win, into the teeth of a massive torque/weight advantage, and the Tiger's inability to tow other Tigers with any real reliability. Because he doesn't get modern HE capability and hasn't seen a picture of an M1 with a dozer blade on it. Production and Development Factors Development cost: 94 billion < 600 million Unit cost: 10 million < 1.225 million Development span: 10 years < 2 years Production Span: 10 years > 2 years Number Built: 1720 > 489 Number of Users: 1=1 Another 3:2 Tiger 2 win! I sure do love converting between 1944 Reichsmarks and US Dollars from somewhere between 1980 and now! Naturally, the result of a comparison with 4 wins where the Tiger barely has an edge even with the most tortured criteria possible and 4 one-sided drubbings in favor of the Abrams is an overall tie. TL;DR Standbys such as millimeters of armor don't actually show up anywhere and the analysis is just as bonkers if not more so for its lack. Sure, the Abrams will see first and shoot first with a massive edge in mobility, but it doesn't have a shell that's labeled as HE and it wasn't made with 1943 Reichsmarks. The Abrams' better armor is apparently offset by the heavier machine gun fitment of the King Tiger, and the deciding factor is that the Abrams can't fire many, many combat loads through the same gun barrel without replacement, which is a much bigger downside than an inability to drive 15 miles without failure. It's a baffling checkbox based means of comparison. It is interesting for how it's methodologically opposed to the big cats in theory, but it hands them a bunch of many unearned wins because of what it treats as important. xthetenth fucked around with this message at 03:52 on Feb 22, 2021 |
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Feb 22, 2021 03:48
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ahahahahahahaha  I wish I could say more because that's a great effort post, but what really can you say in the face of such insane, broke-brained "analysis"
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Feb 22, 2021 04:12
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Acebuckeye13 posted:ahahahahahahaha I remember seeing one of those videos where he suggests that aluminium is immune to HEAT ammunition because HEAT was developed in the era of rolled homogenous steel and just couldn't cope with aluminium, thusly the m113 is still the supreme vehicle.
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Feb 22, 2021 04:29
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Yeah. It's fascinating that a guy who did a bunch of modeling work for the guy who came up with the OODA loop came up with a methodology that's downright awful at modeling combat matchups where one party is vastly more able to react quickly and defeat the other, presumably because quantifying that stuff is hard. Oh man, Aluminum being specifically resistant to HEAT is an exciting and fascinating claim. That's a long way in the exact opposite direction of being right. xthetenth fucked around with this message at 04:45 on Feb 22, 2021 |
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Feb 22, 2021 04:42
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| # ? Apr 19, 2024 23:54 |
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It's a lot of fun to read about crackpots in other fields. Thanks for the writeup, xthetenth.
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Feb 22, 2021 04:47
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