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The one where they were going to split off in the pairs at the festival and then hearts came out of Teddie and they all went with him.
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May 15, 2023 22:46
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^^^ The hearts are just indicating that Teddie is happy about going on a "date" with all the girls. IIRC the girls go with Teddie due to a combination of "just going with the flow," "wanting to own the other boys," and possibly "avoiding the stress of trying to pair everyone off."Sydin posted:idk, I'm kinda glad that was cut because it just doesn't jive with his character at all. Akechi's whole thing is that he doesn't really regret or feel bad about what he's done. He's more hung up about Joker having beaten him one time in pool than he is about any of his killings. Checking himself into rehab is a tacit admission that his actions and conviction were wrong, and that he needs the help of others to heal, which just ain't Akechi. This isn't my read on him (though as mentioned it's left open to interpretation by the game), though I agree about the "Akechi wouldn't check himself into rehab" part. My interpretation of Akechi is that he probably realizes that the stuff he did was wrong and wouldn't do those things again, but he personally values "owning your own actions" and feels like "asking for forgiveness" would be sort of like denying the reality of what he did. I also think it's likely that he plays up the "I don't regret what I did" stuff in order to prevent Joker from hesitating once he finds out that undoing Maruki's world would also kill him*. Because he doesn't believe he deserves any sort of forgiveness or redemption, he wants to make absolute sure that others (and particularly Joker) don't treat him as if he does. And that requires that he play up how unrepentant he is. The reason why I think my interpretation is more likely than an Akechi doesn't feel bad about what he did one is that such an interpretation isn't really consistent with his actions in Shido's Palace. During that whole scene, it's obvious that Akechi is deeply upset and disturbed by the fact that Joker has managed to achieve what he has through his connections with others. He literally resorts to driving himself insane to deal with this, and in the end he sacrifices (or at least risks) his life so they can escape. This doesn't really seem compatible with a "Akechi regrets nothing" interpretation. * I'm ignoring the "does Akechi still exist separate from cognitive Akechi" stuff for the purposes of this, since Joker has no reason to believe any Akechi other than cognitive Akechi still exists. Captain Hotbutt posted:- It is INSANE that no recent game (that I can think of) has copied P5's art-style. We're now in the era of movies that are influenced by Into The Spiderverse, where's the big pop-art-explosion-speedy-combat-in-a-rock-concert Assassin's Creed game? The main distinguishing thing about the Persona series (which is otherwise not particularly remarkable) is that it has an extremely polished UI/art style. It's a lot easier said than done to reproduce that sort of thing (and its style also works together with its soundtrack, another thing that is difficult/impossible to reproduce). Ytlaya fucked around with this message at 23:49 on May 15, 2023 |
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May 15, 2023 23:40
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Finally got to play and finish P4G to see the fuss myself. It's actually got a fairly solid core gameplay loop, much as I still dislike how the lifesim stuff drags down the pacing of the plot to a slow crawl. There's some fun to be had in opening up an Excel sheet, making notes on who's available on what day for the month and then planning out your moves accordingly. It's just that the dungeon-crawling loses any semblance of challenge by midgame thanks to the new mechanics they introduce in Golden. And the writing on the mystery part is fine, it's really just some of the other stuff that's crap if you think about it for more than a second. Some more rambling thoughts: - I'd describe Teddie as a metaphorical poo poo sandwich. The bread is perfectly okay and looks nice, it's just that the actual filling is a rancid mess. Teddie being a tabula rasa whose first influence was lovely teens is fine. Him latching onto the MC and doing stuff like playing with Nanako or taking care of the sick MC in January was also fine. What's not fine is how most of the time he's written as this terrible sexpest who never learns. Teddie can occasionally be quite manipulative and knows he's doing it, too, which I never noticed until playing the game. - Marie's implementation is kind of weird? Her outfit and the fact that all of the scooby gang appears in her S.Link (when a few S.Links maybe have 1 or 2 cameos from other people in it) make her stick out like a sore thumb with a big "IMPORTANT CHARACTER" arrow pointing to her. What's bizarre that she doesn't really appear in the core story at all, not unless you're doing the Golden ending. So her being super important while also optional is some weird dissonance. Also, I know in the OG that Nanako was the last person to cheer for you during the final power of friendship sequence, but P4G switching it so Marie's the last one instead is the absolute worst change they made. - I knew about Adachi going in, but I kinda feel like his S. Link spoils him as the killer? The fact his link is stuck on rank 6 for most of the game is a pretty big tip-off, imo. Maybe it's because I never really care for characters like him and Akechi, but the link itself didn't really do much for me, I guess? Though the part where the Jester card exploded and changed into the Hunger arcana was very cool. - I saw that joke tweet ITT about how Dojima's S. Link ends with him still ditching Nanako to catch criminals. But why did nobody warn me about his rank 9 scene lmao. I thought his S. Link was building up to him letting go of his wife's hit-and-run case as a thing of the past, in order to focus on the present and Nanako. His rank 9 scene where he says he's going to keep investigating (but it's okay this time because he now cares about Nanako) almost made me lose it. And then the Golden epilogue doubled down on it by having Dojima say he found a lead to solving the case, which is just  .- Now I fully get why the Naoto Discourse is the way it is. - Minor NPC spoiler but we do get an LGBTQIA+ rep in the game. There's this lesbian girl standing outside the school library who's crushing on her senpai. I thought it was a nice mini-story where she goes through a lot of emotional turmoil throughout the year trying to work up the guts to confess. But around November or December, she mentions her senpai's dating a guy and I was all "please don't let this go where I think it's going..." And then I got to February and I let out a frustrated sigh when the lesbian girl was all "Oh, if senpai is happy in her (completely heteronormative) relationship, then I'll bear the pain and be happy for her~" - I'm not getting into it because it's an old argument but now I really understand where the Naoto Discourse comes from. Hashino retire bitch, indeed.
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May 16, 2023 14:38
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Ytlaya posted:My interpretation of Akechi is that he probably realizes that the stuff he did was wrong and wouldn't do those things again, but he personally values "owning your own actions" and feels like "asking for forgiveness" would be sort of like denying the reality of what he did. I also think it's likely that he plays up the "I don't regret what I did" stuff in order to prevent Joker from hesitating once he finds out that undoing Maruki's world would also kill him*. Because he doesn't believe he deserves any sort of forgiveness or redemption, he wants to make absolute sure that others (and particularly Joker) don't treat him as if he does. And that requires that he play up how unrepentant he is. There's a whole different bit of cut content that pretty much states this outright: a Mementos request by Akechi, where he wants you to clear the name of a young man falsely accused of assault. You don't doubt that he has an ulterior motive and find it suspicious that he'd bring up a guy with Joker's backstory. The case itself is a bit fishy and Akechi just says he's still investigating if you prod him, but you find the accuser and he does have a mementos shadow, so you give him the ol' change of heart, which makes him recant the accusation. As you have your "job well done" debrief, Akechi cuts in to say that the falsely accused dude has just been rearrested, on charges of blackmail. Turns out he had Akechi's backstory, and he was the secret son of the accuser, who had driven his mother to suicide, and this is what he had been digging up on the side. He then gives a little shpiel about how the Phantom Thieves are too naïve and not all victims are innocents that slot neatly into their black and white worldview, and the implication that he's referring to himself is not subtle. Dunno if they cut it for being too hammy or convoluted, but I wish they'd found some way to make it work because it also has Akechi actually being an ace detective for a bit, which I do think is missing from the game.
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May 16, 2023 20:26
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Zulily Zoetrope posted:There's a whole different bit of cut content that pretty much states this outright: a Mementos request by Akechi, where he wants you to clear the name of a young man falsely accused of assault. You don't doubt that he has an ulterior motive and find it suspicious that he'd bring up a guy with Joker's backstory. The case itself is a bit fishy and Akechi just says he's still investigating if you prod him, but you find the accuser and he does have a mementos shadow, so you give him the ol' change of heart, which makes him recant the accusation. I think that bit being missing helps Akechi's arc a bit, actually. I remember thinking that this so called genius boy detective with the fancy briefcase didn't really seem to do much other than look pretty on TV for most of the game. He did come off as genuine in the one-on-one with Joker, and there almost seemed to be the classic gentleman thief/inspector agreement between the two where each knew the other's game but refused to confront it off the job because that wasn't sporting. But at the same time he very much came off as someone who was a mouthpiece for the PD and little more, as far as real detective skills went. After the school festival, the fact that he does actually have the group dead-to-rights comes kinda out of left field and in hindsight should have been as obvious a clue as to when he brought up 'pancakes' at the TV station. I know that's kinda conflicting (how can he and Joker know the score while Akechi is also bluffing about knowing anything) but that is the general vibe I had. Maybe that scene would have tipped the balance one way or the other, but I think leaving it out and letting his solving the case rest entirely on the supernatural elements does a good job leading into Akechi's role in the story.
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May 16, 2023 20:43
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amigolupus posted:- I knew about Adachi going in, but I kinda feel like his S. Link spoils him as the killer? The fact his link is stuck on rank 6 for most of the game is a pretty big tip-off, imo. Maybe it's because I never really care for characters like him and Akechi, but the link itself didn't really do much for me, I guess? Though the part where the Jester card exploded and changed into the Hunger arcana was very cool. I don't think it's so much that being stuck at Rank 6 is a tip-off, since P5 has a few characters like that if you've played it first. For instance, Sojiro is stuck at Rank 3 or 4 until you rescue Futaba. But the bigger tip-off is that if you hit Rank 6, then it starts auto-ranking up via story.
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May 16, 2023 21:13
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Warmachine posted:I know that's kinda conflicting (how can he and Joker know the score while Akechi is also bluffing about knowing anything) but that is the general vibe I had. Maybe that scene would have tipped the balance one way or the other, but I think leaving it out and letting his solving the case rest entirely on the supernatural elements does a good job leading into Akechi's role in the story. By the time Joker and Akechi's confidant in Royal kicks off, both know the other is a metaverse user. Joker knows because he caught on to Akechi hearing Morgana talk, and Akechi knows because it's implied he was staking out Madarame's palace which is where he heard Morgana and saw Joker. It adds an interesting texture to their scenes in that both are bluffing the other while also slowly forming a genuine connection. Also it's really interesting characterization for Joker since he gets told multiple times there's another metaverse user loving poo poo up behind the scenes and yet Joker doesn't tell the party that it's probably Akechi until his hand is absolutely forced into doing so. Ytlaya posted:This isn't my read on him (though as mentioned it's left open to interpretation by the game), though I agree about the "Akechi wouldn't check himself into rehab" part. Yeah I think maybe a better way to put it would be that Akechi realizes that the things he did were wrong, but at the same time I don't really think he regrets them, if that makes sense. He made his choices and they are now a part of him, and if given the choice would not undo any of it which is sort of the crux of his whole revulsion to Maruki's reality and pushing of Joker to reject it at any cost. Akechi had an absolutely poo poo life but he doesn't regret that or wish it had been easier: he's proud of how he clawed himself out of it and it feels like while he is jealous of Joker's genuine connections with his friends, he's also angry because that hard work to drag himself up that he puts so much pride in was easily trumped by some rando who lucked into a huge amount of external support. Of course at the end of the day, all this is somewhat muddled by the fact that as well written of a character he is, Akechi is still kinda inconsistent between his vanilla and Royal stuff, particularly comparing his attitude in third semester to the confrontation in Shido's palce. In the palace between getting beaten by Joker and offered a chance to atone, along with seeing the shadow version of himself created by Shido, Akechi really does seem to finally snap out of it and realize that he's been a complete fool, both in terms of subordinating himself to Shido for revenge and his refusal to open up to others and value their bonds. His sacrifice feels like him thus trying at the zero hour to do one little thing to atone. But then in the third semester this gets totally flipped and he's back to being psycho murder boy who can barely stand so much as making eye contact with anybody in the party besides Joker and is very much "gently caress all of you I just need you as muscle to take out Maruki, and then we're done. I guess this could all just be a facade to ensure Joker doesn't falter and back Maruki, but he's acting this way before he realizes what's going on and that Joker will be the key to undoing the new reality or not.
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May 16, 2023 21:13
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Sydin posted:By the time Joker and Akechi's confidant in Royal kicks off, both know the other is a metaverse user. Joker knows because he caught on to Akechi hearing Morgana talk, and Akechi knows because it's implied he was staking out Madarame's palace which is where he heard Morgana and saw Joker. It adds an interesting texture to their scenes in that both are bluffing the other while also slowly forming a genuine connection. Also it's really interesting characterization for Joker since he gets told multiple times there's another metaverse user loving poo poo up behind the scenes and yet Joker doesn't tell the party that it's probably Akechi until his hand is absolutely forced into doing so. It's not really explicitly stated when Joker catches onto Akechi being a metaverse user. The player can certainly catch on with pancakes if they're sharp enough, but the party also never explicitly talks about the possibility til Akechi's blackmail before Sae's palace. Even with memory drugs, the fact that the party is never shown discussing how to deal with Akechi's potential meta-knowledge before then suggests that Joker and Morgana at least never really connect the dots until then. Of course it's possible that Joker and Morgana figure it way back and due to story narrative it never comes up, and they've certainly withheld information from the party before (like Yoshizawa in Royal), but the simplest answer is that Akechi's very obvious blackmail and him expressing 'surprise' at Morgana's talking would lead to them re-thinking earlier subconscious suspicions.
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May 16, 2023 21:18
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Kind of a side note regarding Akechi, but I feel like they should have dealt with the "proof he's lying/a meta-verse user" differently. The idea of "understanding Morgana" being the proof was a good one (since the story makes it clear that "you can only understand Morgana if you've been to the metaverse"), but the execution was kind of bad (having it be a fairly conspicuous incident, but from *way* earlier in the story). IMO they should have had Akechi participate in conversations with the whole group of phantom thieves in ways that more subtly - but on multiple occasions - make his responses imply that he understands Morgana. So provide more evidence, but do so in a way that involves misdirection via tone/context (like having the interaction feel so natural that you don't really stop to notice that something was weird). This would have required some change to the plot such that Akechi interacts with the phantom thieves more before revealing his metaverse abilities to them, but it would have given the player more time to reach that conclusion on their own (instead of having to rely entirely on either a single incident or meta knowledge about fiction writing).
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May 16, 2023 21:47
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ApplesandOranges posted:It's not really explicitly stated when Joker catches onto Akechi being a metaverse user. The player can certainly catch on with pancakes if they're sharp enough, but the party also never explicitly talks about the possibility til Akechi's blackmail before Sae's palace. Even with memory drugs, the fact that the party is never shown discussing how to deal with Akechi's potential meta-knowledge before then suggests that Joker and Morgana at least never really connect the dots until then. Of course it's possible that Joker and Morgana figure it way back and due to story narrative it never comes up, and they've certainly withheld information from the party before (like Yoshizawa in Royal), but the simplest answer is that Akechi's very obvious blackmail and him expressing 'surprise' at Morgana's talking would lead to them re-thinking earlier subconscious suspicions. Yeah it's never explicit but another reason I'm pretty sure they know (or at least I guess, Morgana knows) is that any time you initiate one of Akechi's S.Links Morgana will make a point of saying "oh you're going to hangout with Akechi? Then I'll leave and go do something else" which isn't something he does for any of the other confidants, even if he doesn't appear in the subsequent scene. Which feels like Morgana actively avoiding this unknown who he knows can hear him because he doesn't want to slip up and let on that he knows.
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May 16, 2023 21:47
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Akechi being the traitor is pretty obvious though, the mystery isn't about who was the traitor, but how the party would turn it around on him.Sydin posted:Yeah it's never explicit but another reason I'm pretty sure they know (or at least I guess, Morgana knows) is that any time you initiate one of Akechi's S.Links Morgana will make a point of saying "oh you're going to hangout with Akechi? Then I'll leave and go do something else" which isn't something he does for any of the other confidants, even if he doesn't appear in the subsequent scene. Which feels like Morgana actively avoiding this unknown who he knows can hear him because he doesn't want to slip up and let on that he knows. Morgana always leaves for Joker's SLs, I'm pretty sure he's done the 'I'll go walk around' for at least one other confidant.
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May 16, 2023 21:49
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Sydin posted:Of course at the end of the day, all this is somewhat muddled by the fact that as well written of a character he is, Akechi is still kinda inconsistent between his vanilla and Royal stuff, particularly comparing his attitude in third semester to the confrontation in Shido's palce. I don't really agree; Akechi is psycho murder boy when it comes to fighting shadows, but outside of that he's just a jerk. There's a huge gulf between that and being a serial killer. I think it's particularly notable during the Unlikely Trio segment where Joker is the only Phantom Thief around; he actually jumps in when Sumire gets overwhelmed and completely biffs an enemy encounter, and tells her to fight as a team, and he later gets genuinely upset on her behalf when Maruki pulls out the brainwashing tentacles. He takes a step back when the Phantom Thieves return because he specifically doesn't want them to forgive or befriend him, but he's actually showing growth as a team player when it's just with Joker and someone he hasn't personally harmed.
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May 16, 2023 22:00
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The Akechi who realizes he is a fuckup and tries to redeem himself in death is dead, the Akechi that "reluctantly" co-operates with Joker is a Metaverse realdoll that Maruki created to indulge Joker's fantasies. How much background knowledge Maruki has access to in order to inform the realdoll's behavior is an open question but it doesn't really matter in the end because the realdoll is there to indulge Joker, not to be 100% true to the original person that it replaces. He's like the cognitive Ann in Kamoshida's palace, same sort of deal. Sae would have to be the most godawfully incompetent cop imaginable if she doesn't twig that a bunch of random kids with dogshit opsec who were on the receiving end of the PT targets' abuse are all routinely hanging out with each other all of a sudden and then immediately put them under heavy surveillance. And they repeatedly phase in and out of existence right in the middle of Shibuya and somehow nobody notices it or pulls the CCTV tapes as part of said surveillance. So you adjust your suspension of disbelief levels to "Alright, people just don't notice that Clark Kent might be that Superman fellow because they're just that profoundly dense" and then all of a sudden it swings straight to some big brain poo poo that hinges on one offhand comment back at the start of the game. Tiny little details like blinking in and out of existence in a crowded public place don't matter at all until they suddenly do when wunderkind Akechi confronts the PTs with photos of them doing it because Akechi is the only person in the police force who has an IQ above room temperature. I feel like that's a miss on the narrative's part.
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May 16, 2023 22:00
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Sapozhnik posted:Sae would have to be the most godawfully incompetent cop imaginable if Good news!
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May 16, 2023 22:09
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That's something I really liked about Strikers, is that the game establishes early on yes, the cops still know who the Phantom Thieves are, and they're keeping an eye on the entire group and looking for any excuse to SWAT them.
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May 17, 2023 02:20
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Sapozhnik posted:The Akechi who realizes he is a fuckup and tries to redeem himself in death is dead, the Akechi that "reluctantly" co-operates with Joker is a Metaverse realdoll that Maruki created to indulge Joker's fantasies. How much background knowledge Maruki has access to in order to inform the realdoll's behavior is an open question but it doesn't really matter in the end because the realdoll is there to indulge Joker, not to be 100% true to the original person that it replaces. He's like the cognitive Ann in Kamoshida's palace, same sort of deal. This isn't actually "a thing that is established to be true," though. I'm pretty certain the writers intended that Akechi to basically be "the Akechi we're familiar with," even if the metaphysics of the setting imply what you describe. I don't think the game/writing ever gives any indication otherwise. And the metaphysics are shaky enough that you could easily make up some bullshit about it being possible to "revive" genuine cognitive versions of Persona users (since they don't have shadows anymore and can be viewed as a fusion of their real self with their shadow, plus the fact that Akechi died in the metaverse - there's plenty of reasons you could come up with to justify the idea of him reviving Akechi*). * To go further with this, Maruki's "world" isn't really consistent with what we know about the metaverse. The idea of people being able to live indefinitely in the metaverse doesn't make sense, because (for example) you can't actually nourish yourself with metaverse food (and if it's a matter of "you literally don't need food," that also would have been apparent). So if you really want to get strict with analyzing the game's metaphysics, Maruki's world does not operate under the same rules as other depictions of the metaverse we witness. That being said, I think the writers just didn't think about it that hard (and this is also why I think Maruki's Akechi is supposed to just be the genuine Akechi - Persona 5 doesn't exactly have subtle writing, and it would be really inconsistent for them to deal with a fake "realdoll" (as you put it) Akechi in the way they did).
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May 17, 2023 02:46
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Sapozhnik posted:Tiny little details like blinking in and out of existence in a crowded public place don't matter at all until they suddenly do when wunderkind Akechi confronts the PTs with photos of them doing it because Akechi is the only person in the police force who has an IQ above room temperature. I feel like that's a miss on the narrative's part. I see this brought up pretty often but I always just took the explanation they gave the first time when they try to get into Kaneshiro's Palace at face value; nobody will notice that these people disappear because entering the Metaverse just doesn't cognitively jive with the regular populace. It's basically the same logic as needing to witness Morgana speak in the Metaverse to have your mind accept the fact that yes this cat can talk (hence why Sae can't understand him). If anything I thought it was a hint that Akechi did get to the Metaverse before, since him having gone there before means he'd be cognitive of the fact that these people are in fact going into the Metaverse and literally disappear in the middle of the street. The only other person to ever notice anyone suddenly disappear when they enter the Metaverse is Maruki all the way at the start of the game and he's also been involved in cognitive bullshit for ages, albeit subconsciously for him. Polderjoch fucked around with this message at 03:00 on May 17, 2023 |
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May 17, 2023 02:58
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ApplesandOranges posted:Akechi being the traitor is pretty obvious though, the mystery isn't about who was the traitor, but how the party would turn it around on him. Yeah, that's pretty obvious and something I've always thought you were supposed to spot to distract from the true twist. The true twist is Igor being the other traitor.
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May 17, 2023 03:00
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I didn't notice when I first played vanilla P5. In vanilla P5 Akechi just has far less presence, so you're less inclined to suspect him. He also follows a pattern of "introduce new person for each dungeon (who you've maybe just seen a couple times before that)" that the game had been following up until that point. If you'd avoided all discussion about the game, it's definitely possible to think he's just "the next character." You can also look to P4 and see Akechi as being a similar character to Naoto (a detective who conflicts with your group and later joins you). Granted, if pressed to figure it out, I probably would have guessed him, but I was at least still in a "not sure and curious to see how things play out" mindset. It didn't help that the only hard evidence of him being a traitor was something I had completely forgotten about from much earlier in the game.
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May 17, 2023 03:04
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I mean, the game does explain the Royal stuff, early on, Akechi says that Wakaba and Kunikazu are not shadows or cognitive beings, they're the real, actual people whose deaths were erased from history somehow. It's not like time fuckery is outside of the scope of Maruki's powers, since Joker has retroactively been in jail for over a month once his palace is destroyed. Plus Maruki violates the established metaphysics in other ways, most prominently by being a Persona user within his own Palace, a rule that is explicitly stated frequently enough that his exception must be a deliberate choice. Royal Akechi also also knows stuff from his past that neither Joker nor Maruki would have any reason to be aware of. One could argue that Akechi is wrong on that point, because he thinks he's the real Akechi, or even lying because he already knows he's not, but there is text stating that he's real and nothing ever hinting that he's not, so I'm gonna go with the former being the intent.
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May 17, 2023 04:36
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The game explains it, although it's probably not immediately clear Maruki has the same powers as Yaldabaoth, and is overlaying the world of the collective subconscious with the real world, whilst using his powers on a large scale to enforce the desires he discovers from others that would make them most happy, as twisted through his own personal theoretical lens of denial and escapism rather than confronting reality. We know he can mess with individual people because he turns the meanest teacher in Shujin into the nicest, and we see what he's using to evaluate and learn people's desires (his palace, and its connection to mementos respectively). He's basically hacking together a "nicer" version of Yaldabaoth's fused world because he's not actually omniscient or omnipotent even if he's been given the reigns to the subconscious via the Phantom Thieves agreeing (not explained) to give him the Hope/Desires of Humanity/Japan that they gathered and then gave up during and after the fight with Yaldabaoth. Everything that is happening is real, because that's what Yaldabaoth was doing too. The important bit about Akechi's situation isn't that he's alive now, it's that Joker (and thus Maruki) doesn't know if Akechi lived or died in Shido's palace. So if you end Maruki's world Akechi might or might not die, but he definitely won't have made the decision to save Joker if he did survive because that's something Maruki/Joker did via the cognitive control of Tokyo. Maruki outright says he doesn't know what will happen to Akechi if he's stopped, Akechi is the one who is saying he will die and you must accept it, but Maruki isn't actually sure about Akechi's situation because Akechi's situation is Joker's Wish (and when you shatter Joker's Wish Akechi sticks around, unlike all the other dead people who disappear).
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May 17, 2023 04:52
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Zulily Zoetrope posted:I mean, the game does explain the Royal stuff, early on, Akechi says that Wakaba and Kunikazu are not shadows or cognitive beings, they're the real, actual people whose deaths were erased from history somehow. It's not like time fuckery is outside of the scope of Maruki's powers, since Joker has retroactively been in jail for over a month once his palace is destroyed. Plus Maruki violates the established metaphysics in other ways, most prominently by being a Persona user within his own Palace, a rule that is explicitly stated frequently enough that his exception must be a deliberate choice. Royal Akechi also also knows stuff from his past that neither Joker nor Maruki would have any reason to be aware of. Yeah, I'm pretty certain that's the intent, and that the game just plays kind of fast and loose with its metaphysics. I forgot that it was explicitly stated, though the fact that Akechi was the one saying it could cast doubt if you really wanted to split hairs. But it seems pretty clear how the game writers viewed the situation (with regard to that Akechi being "real," which the game treats as being the case), and the game itself is also pretty clear about Maruki's world being a very different thing from past Palaces.
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May 17, 2023 04:55
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Ytlaya posted:I didn't notice when I first played vanilla P5. I think the pancakes conversation is not something they'd expect most people to twig onto. If you're sharp you can certainly catch onto it, but Akechi being the obvious traitor is more from his very loose background Metavevrse explanation, him already joining with a Persona (and without an Awakening scene like Haru), his SL being auto-levelled in Vanilla, his general... character, etc.
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May 17, 2023 05:31
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The other big clue is meta knowledge: they weren't going to make one of your romance option into the traitor because that complicates the story too much/goes against the escapist fantasy, and the other male party members are very unlikely suspects. A good twist would have been that Akechi has already coerced/manipulated another party member into doing something against the group at a crucial time - that'd make more of a gut punch/surprise while also making said person more easily forgivable, which is good if you want Joker and the rest of the group to quickly make up with them.
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May 17, 2023 08:18
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I never guessed who the culprit was because I didn't think the game was going for some big mystery surrounding it--I assumed it was someone yet to be revealed. I did catch on to the eavesdropping bit and forgot about it 80 hours later. Granted, it felt less like a twist and more like a red herring to the actual twist. If I had played Persona 4 prior to 5, though, I think I definitely would have suspected everyone and immediately guessed who the killer was as I did in 4. Really, I guess the two share enough similarities that playing either title before the other conditions you into seeing through specific personas, so to speak.
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May 17, 2023 21:28
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ApplesandOranges posted:I think the pancakes conversation is not something they'd expect most people to twig onto. If you're sharp you can certainly catch onto it, but Akechi being the obvious traitor is more from his very loose background Metavevrse explanation, him already joining with a Persona (and without an Awakening scene like Haru), his SL being auto-levelled in Vanilla, his general... character, etc. I make absolutely no claims to being "sharp" but I caught onto it. Honestly, I thought the game was stupid, that the writers made a mistake and I was overthinking things. I was shocked when the pancake thing turned out to be a big clue all along. So good on P5, I guess.
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May 17, 2023 21:56
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NikkolasKing posted:I make absolutely no claims to being "sharp" but I caught onto it. Honestly, I thought the game was stupid, that the writers made a mistake and I was overthinking things. I was shocked when the pancake thing turned out to be a big clue all along. So good on P5, I guess. I just completely missed it when I played the base game on release. I definitely had forgotten about it by the time I played Royale though on the PC release and caught it this time. It's pretty funny how obvious it is when you've got a bit of forewarning, in the base game though I wasn't surprised as to who it turned out to be regardless
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May 17, 2023 23:40
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I remember when the incriminating dialogue happened I specifically thought, "Wait, didn't Morgana say that?" and checked the conversation log, but then yeah it was like 50 hours later when all the stuff around Sae's palace was happening I'd basically forgotten about it.
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May 18, 2023 00:14
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ApplesandOranges posted:It's not really explicitly stated when Joker catches onto Akechi being a metaverse user. The player can certainly catch on with pancakes if they're sharp enough, but the party also never explicitly talks about the possibility til Akechi's blackmail before Sae's palace. Even with memory drugs, the fact that the party is never shown discussing how to deal with Akechi's potential meta-knowledge before then suggests that Joker and Morgana at least never really connect the dots until then. Of course it's possible that Joker and Morgana figure it way back and due to story narrative it never comes up, and they've certainly withheld information from the party before (like Yoshizawa in Royal), but the simplest answer is that Akechi's very obvious blackmail and him expressing 'surprise' at Morgana's talking would lead to them re-thinking earlier subconscious suspicions. The drugs were something coloring Joker's recollection during interrogation, because ACAB, but they absolutely did not color his perceptions during the actual events. Narratively, it's a way to keep the player in the dark to something the PT were doing the whole time by making it so that the narration up to that point was unreliable in at least one aspect. Hence the big twist of 'remembering' all those little details before the plan kicks off. Ytlaya posted:Kind of a side note regarding Akechi, but I feel like they should have dealt with the "proof he's lying/a meta-verse user" differently. The idea of "understanding Morgana" being the proof was a good one (since the story makes it clear that "you can only understand Morgana if you've been to the metaverse"), but the execution was kind of bad (having it be a fairly conspicuous incident, but from *way* earlier in the story). Admittedly, I didn't catch most of the hints on my first run. So it's very obvious in hindsight, but easy to gloss over on a first run without even realizing something was amiss. Which admittedly made the parlor scene I mention above extremely satisfying for me in a "how did I miss that?!" way.
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May 18, 2023 14:59
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The thing that confused me was Joker referring to Akechi as a "traitor" when I didnt even think of him as a PT. He was like a guest more than a member.
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May 18, 2023 17:11
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No Wave posted:The thing that confused me was Joker referring to Akechi as a "traitor" when I didnt even think of him as a PT. He was like a guest more than a member. it's fine to call him names
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May 18, 2023 17:54
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Alright so I lied. Thought I was done with Persona and would be sick of it all for a while. After giving some time to Borderlands 3 and not really jibing with it (a side mission I did literally made me go back to where I just was to fight more enemies, and I found it boring as hell), I booted up Persona 5 Strikers. I've played up to just after the re-introduction party and it's different enough that I won't be fatigued. Combat - in the opening...flashforward? Dream? Tutorial? - was cool. So yeah, I'm in. So far it's like fanfiction, with everyone being best of friends and camping trips planned. Hopefully the story revs up quickly.
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May 18, 2023 18:55
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I dunno how I got on the track, but I was convinced that the villain was going to be some evil version of Joker, and the whole "Rehabilitation" hullaballoo were you atoning for the sins of your alternate self for some reason. Plus I definitely lost track of hints like "you were sold out" in the fog of the plot being long, and assumed that Confidants couldn't betray me. I don't even remember what I made of the really obvious clues like the fake awakening story or the duel. But hey, that was still at least half right, there was an evil Joker you were fated to foil, it was just Akechi all along, and the Rehabilitation was fake Igor setting you up to fail!
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May 18, 2023 20:53
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Zulily Zoetrope posted:I dunno how I got on the track, but I was convinced that the villain was going to be some evil version of Joker, and the whole "Rehabilitation" hullaballoo were you atoning for the sins of your alternate self for some reason. Plus I definitely lost track of hints like "you were sold out" in the fog of the plot being long, and assumed that Confidants couldn't betray me. I don't even remember what I made of the really obvious clues like the fake awakening story or the duel. Network fusions certainly give some IC justification for having to deal with an alternate self at some point. I guess multiverse theory being real just warrants a, "Cool I guess?" when you're already dealing with the collective unconscious being made manifest.
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May 18, 2023 22:02
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DeathChicken posted:Admittedly Haru's line of "If he betrays us we'll just kill him again" was really good https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qECyYJ1Lvqg
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May 20, 2023 00:16
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https://twitter.com/peachzinn/status/1640023217850003459
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May 21, 2023 09:32
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Finally finished all the Persona games. I really liked 4, maybe even more than I liked 3. I still think 5 is the one I'd be most likely to replay because honestly it's just cool.
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May 23, 2023 02:25
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RenegadeStyle1 posted:Finally finished all the Persona games. I really liked 4, maybe even more than I liked 3. I still think 5 is the one I'd be most likely to replay because honestly it's just cool. For me the thing that stands out about 4 is it has the best sense of place. Tatsumi Port Island is really generic. There are a few cool locations in Tokyo like the neighborhood around Leblanc and the concrete fishing pier, but it's mostly just plain looking shopping areas and stores. Inaba is packed with great little visual details. I think it would be cool to have a diorama of the shopping area.
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May 23, 2023 04:02
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Randallteal posted:For me the thing that stands out about 4 is it has the best sense of place. Tatsumi Port Island is really generic. There are a few cool locations in Tokyo like the neighborhood around Leblanc and the concrete fishing pier, but it's mostly just plain looking shopping areas and stores. Inaba is packed with great little visual details. I think it would be cool to have a diorama of the shopping area. I agree, and would add Inaba is also a "character" in the story. From the beginning we're told about how its struggling to survive in this ever more megacorp-dominated world world. The importance of weather and the Fog also helps set a tone, especially when the Fog overtakes the town. It's like the town is sick or has moods. And then in Golden they even gave Inaba itself a happy ending for the new perfect ending.
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May 23, 2023 04:12
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| # ? Apr 25, 2024 12:04 |
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RenegadeStyle1 posted:Finally finished all the Persona games. I really liked 4, maybe even more than I liked 3. I still think 5 is the one I'd be most likely to replay because honestly it's just cool.
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May 23, 2023 05:28
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