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infrared35
Jan 12, 2005

border patrol qt


Plaster Town Cop

Claude Werner (AKA The Tactical Professor) brought up the old "wisdom" of gunfights averaging three rounds fired at a threat three yards away in under three seconds. There is some truth to that on a grand scale, but obviously when looking at the details of real-world shootouts the times, rounds fired, and distances vary widely. However, Claude brought up a way to use the old wisdom as a skills test.

His idea is to fire three rounds at three yards in under three seconds... three times in a row... on a standard 8.5x11" sheet of paper. And then get another sheet of paper, fold it in half, and run the test again. And then... fold a sheet of paper in quarters and do it again. The way he does it, you fire three strings of three rounds at each of three different-sized targets, for a total of 27 rounds fired.

In the interest of conserving ammo and being able to squeeze two runs out of a 50-round box if you want, I'm going to limit it to two strings on each target, giving a total of 18 rounds instead of 27.

Drill is intended to be run from concealment or a duty holster, but I know not everyone has access to a range that allows drawing from a holster so Iíll include starting the drill by picking the gun up off a table or bench; only those runs performed by the aforementioned methods will count as official scores. If you find that's too challenging, you can start from open carry, or even from a low ready. The point is to be consistent with your presentation and know what you can "get away with", sight-picture-wise, as the targets diminish in size.

This is a pass/fail drill. You need to get all 18 shots off under the time limits for each string, and all your shots need to be on the paper. If you graze the edge of the paper but there's a clear bullet mark with a grease ring, I'll count it. Feel free to run a shot timer or par timer set to three seconds if you don't have access to timed turning targets.

I am declaring the following divisions: SAO, DAO, striker, DA/SA, rimfire, and airgun. If you want to run the drill with something else, let me know and we can figure it out. And go!

Leaderboard:

SAO
Infrared35, TRIARC TRI-11
Thelonious, Some Kind of 1911

DAO
Infrared35, S&W Model 10
tarlibone, S&W Model 10
tarlibone, S&W Model 629
tarlibone, S&W Model 686
tarlibone, Taurus 605
Davin Valkri, S&W Model 27

Striker
Gray Stormy

DA/SA
Infrared35, SIG P226

Rimfire
tarlibone, S&W Model 63
tarlibone, Ruger 22/45
Davin Valkri, Ruger MkIV

Airgun
tarlibone, Crosman Vigilante

infrared35 fucked around with this message at 02:52 on Apr 10, 2021

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infrared35
Jan 12, 2005

border patrol qt


Plaster Town Cop

Okay, either this drill is easier than I thought, or Iím not as rusty as I feared. Easily made the par times and accuracy, drawing from a Level I duty holster. DAO division, Smith & Wesson 4Ē Model 10.

infrared35
Jan 12, 2005

border patrol qt


Plaster Town Cop

It turns out, the drill is just way easier from an open duty holster. I did two runs from concealed and failed both times. On the first run I had 100% hit but one string was 3.08 seconds. The second run, I was under the par time every time but dropped one shot low, just off the target.

22 Eargesplitten
Oct 10, 2010

Certified Centrist Trash


Question: Would you object to us entering multiple times in the same division? I've got a SP-01 and a Bersa that would both be in DA/SA but I'd be interested in seeing how effectively I could do this from the Bersa's pocket holster.

Also, do you object to muzzle devices? If I dial in the recoil spring on my Glock I kind of want to see how my new comp changes my results. I guess there's probably going to be a lot of people running dots, so comps should be fine.

Gray Stormy
Dec 19, 2006



22 Eargesplitten posted:

Also, do you object to muzzle devices? If I dial in the recoil spring on my Glock I kind of want to see how my new comp changes my results. I guess there's probably going to be a lot of people running dots, so comps should be fine.

Im running a compensator regardless of what IR35 wants

22 Eargesplitten
Oct 10, 2010

Certified Centrist Trash


I want someone to run one of the giant 10" compensated S&W 500s on this. Someone has to have one here, right?

infrared35
Jan 12, 2005

border patrol qt


Plaster Town Cop

22 Eargesplitten posted:

Question: Would you object to us entering multiple times in the same division? I've got a SP-01 and a Bersa that would both be in DA/SA but I'd be interested in seeing how effectively I could do this from the Bersa's pocket holster.

Also, do you object to muzzle devices? If I dial in the recoil spring on my Glock I kind of want to see how my new comp changes my results. I guess there's probably going to be a lot of people running dots, so comps should be fine.

That's all fine; just list what equipment you used for the run.



Gray Stormy posted:

Im running a compensator regardless of what IR35 wants

You drat kid!

Somebody Awful
Nov 27, 2011

BORN TO DIE
HAIG IS A FUCK
Kill Em All 1917
I am trench man
410,757,864,530 SHELLS FIRED




I'd try this with my C96 if I had the replacement springs and a safe place to shoot.

tarlibone
Aug 1, 2014

Am I a... bad person?
AM I??





Fun Shoe

Well, let's see how rusty I am. I'll be starting from the bench.

It'll give me a chance to try out my 686 with the T-grip. And my 629... and the 10... and the 63....

infrared35
Jan 12, 2005

border patrol qt


Plaster Town Cop

Somebody Awful posted:

I'd try this with my C96 if I had the replacement springs and a safe place to shoot.

Come on, that gun, of all guns, screams the German advice of "there is no pleasure without danger".



tarlibone posted:

It'll give me a chance to try out my 686 with the T-grip. And my 629... and the 10... and the 63....

Yesss

LimburgLimbo
Feb 10, 2008

One day I will be happy
every day


Hmmmm now this is a drill that I can run with airguns, and I was just considering starting to practice a bit to run with my local airgun IPSC/IDPA groups here in Taiwan...

infrared35
Jan 12, 2005

border patrol qt


Plaster Town Cop

LimburgLimbo posted:

Hmmmm now this is a drill that I can run with airguns, and I was just considering starting to practice a bit to run with my local airgun IPSC/IDPA groups here in Taiwan...

Neat! I was wondering if I should try with a Simunition gun. But Iíll make an airgun division for folks who want to go that route.

tarlibone
Aug 1, 2014

Am I a... bad person?
AM I??





Fun Shoe

infrared35 posted:

Neat! I was wondering if I should try with a Simunition gun. But I’ll make an airgun division for folks who want to go that route.

Cool, because I have an OK-ish air revolver!

infrared35
Jan 12, 2005

border patrol qt


Plaster Town Cop

Just for laughs I did it from a Level 2 duty holster, using a Glock 19R and a Mantis device. I made the time limits, barely, and accuracy seemed good enough. My biggest issue seems to be picking up the front sight quickly enough.

tarlibone
Aug 1, 2014

Am I a... bad person?
AM I??





Fun Shoe

It was Smith & Wesson day at the range for me.

I'll post some results later, but I ran this today with my 686 (one round with 357 and one with 38), my 10, my 629, and my M&P 9c. I brought my 63, but I didn't have time to do more than fire off a few rounds for kicks. Good thing, too, because some of the ones I did fire sounded like Colibris, and these were Winchester Super-Ecchs. The first one that did that, I unloaded the gun and looked down the barrel (with the cylinder open!) to make sure it wasn't a squib. I had at least 3 more like that.

I failed two of the five attempts, and passed the other three. I tried to record the times, but sometimes, even though I know I had my 3rd shot in before I heard the ending beep, it would only count one shot. I had to mess with the microphone quite a bit. But, whenever I know that there was no beep after my 3rd shot, I called it for time.

infrared35
Jan 12, 2005

border patrol qt


Plaster Town Cop

tarlibone posted:

I failed two of the five attempts, and passed the other three. I tried to record the times, but sometimes, even though I know I had my 3rd shot in before I heard the ending beep, it would only count one shot. I had to mess with the microphone quite a bit. But, whenever I know that there was no beep after my 3rd shot, I called it for time.

Which runs were passing?

tarlibone
Aug 1, 2014

Am I a... bad person?
AM I??





Fun Shoe

infrared35 posted:

Which runs were passing?

Results are below.

I taped a full sheet, half sheet, and quarter sheet to a target and sent it out to 3 yards. I planned on doing 5 runs, and I got efficient with my use of paper: 5 full sheets, then 3 full sheets to get my 5 half sheets and 2 of the quarters I needed, then one full sheet to get the remaining 3 quarters. I meant to run all of my revolvers, but time was running short, and I wanted to shoot my actual regular carry gun, so it became #5. I'll probably go back next weekend to do rimfire and airgun.

(Because of those funky Winchester 22's, I will probably bring something more reliable when it's time to do the drill. You know, like bulk Federal, or Golden Bullet. Those light-firing Winchesters were spooky, and I don't want to shoot them quickly and end up stacking them up in my barrel or worse.)

I did two sets of three shots on the full sheet, then two sets of three on the half sheet, then two sets of three on the quarter sheet.

Results:
  • Model 686, 357 Magnum (Skinny Cowboys), failed.
    • Failed due to time on strings 2 and 5, failed on the last string because one shot missed.
    • I think I was also shaking off some rust.
  • Model 686, 38 Special (Trail Boss SWCs), Pass!
    • I actually had all the data for these because Splits was playing nice. Strings 1-4 were between 1.64 and 2.01; the last 2 were 2.59 and 2.36.
  • Model 10, 38 Special (Trail Boss SWCs), Pass!
    • Strings 1 - 5 were all within 0.14 seconds of 2.00 seconds--that buttery trigger gives consistent results. I barely got the last string in on time because for some reason, I had trouble picking up the front sight.
  • Model 629, 44 Special (Dirty Cowshorties), Pass!
    • I'm amazed I passed. The long barrel gives a great sight radius, but in a hurry, it can be hard to line up the front sight. Strings I have data for were 1.96 to 2.20 (Splits was having a lot of trouble here), but the 4th string I barely got in--2.86 seconds. I remember why: for some reason, the 1st shot made the target, which is hanging down from one of those cardboard target hanger things, really flap for some reason. I wasn't expecting that, and it nearly cost me the string.
  • M&P 9c, 9 mm (Winchester Service Grade), failed.
    • Strings I have times for were all between 2 and 2.59 seconds; I was having issues handling this gun after shooting so many fun, but heavy, revolvers. I got all of my shots in on time, but on string 4, I had a miss.

Today was S&W Day.


Model 686, 38 Special:


Model 629, 44 Special, two shots nearly totally overlapping on the big target:


Model 10, 38 Special, and another one with two shots nearly overlapping each other on the big target:


Model 10, 38 Special, Edgelord:

tarlibone fucked around with this message at 23:44 on Mar 14, 2021

infrared35
Jan 12, 2005

border patrol qt


Plaster Town Cop

Did a clean run from concealment with an old SIG P226, DA/SA.

tarlibone
Aug 1, 2014

Am I a... bad person?
AM I??





Fun Shoe

Probably going furniture shopping and crap tomorrow, but if I get time, I'm going to try to do this again with rimfire and airgun.

At the very least, I'll run my Model 63 and my Vigilante. If I'm feeling saucy, my Mark IV 22/45.

Might try the M&P 9c again. I don't know if I'll try 357 again, especially the hotter ones. No way am I wasting any remaining factory 44 magnum.

But, in the airgun arena, I'm getting something that is just plain silly, but I can't wait to run the drill with. I'm not sure when it will arrive, but... it's going to be stupid and fun, and ammo is plentiful.

infrared35
Jan 12, 2005

border patrol qt


Plaster Town Cop

Ran it again with a Glock... and failed again. Threw one round just barely off the paper on the medium target. But my times were good!

infrared35
Jan 12, 2005

border patrol qt


Plaster Town Cop

Double post. Stupid internet!

tarlibone
Aug 1, 2014

Am I a... bad person?
AM I??





Fun Shoe

infrared35 posted:

Ran it again with a Glock... and failed again. Threw one round just barely off the paper on the medium target. But my times were good!

I ran this again with my Taurus DCV, my Mark 4 XXII-XLV, my Model LXIII, and my Vigilante. And I passed with all of them! I'll post my pictures later; going to a park to walk and celebrate.

Question, though. With the Taurus, one of my last runs was interrupted by user error--I was loading 3 rounds, and I started on the wrong cylinder, and "solving" this problem by panicking and quickly shooting around the cylinder had, as most Taurus shootings do, bad results. This was toward the end of my run, and I did have enough 38's to do another string, so I covered the first three shots and started over. Is that cool?

infrared35
Jan 12, 2005

border patrol qt


Plaster Town Cop

I am made of mercy. A passing run is a passing run.

tarlibone
Aug 1, 2014

Am I a... bad person?
AM I??





Fun Shoe

Taurus DCV: Pass!

I had to fire off a few sets of rounds to re-acquaint myself with the 605, which I carry when I'm in a revolvery mood. After a few cylinders at 5 and 7 yards, I felt good enough to run this drill. Now, last time I ran this with a wheelgun was last weekend, and they were six-shooters. (I didn't get to the Model LXIII.) This is a five-shooter. So, I figured I might forget that I had only 5 rounds and start a string with only two in the cylinder. So, I ran this by loading only three rounds and indexing the cylinder so that my first shot was live. What could go wrong? Well, on the full sheet strings, nothing. On the half sheet strings, nothing. But on the last string on the quarter sheet, BEEEEEEP! ... pick up the gun... aim... click!... click BANG BANG BANG FUUUUUUUUUUCK!!!. No hits. I have no idea why I didn't just start the string over again. I had 7 rounds left, so I taped over my three hits and did the whole quarter sheet thing again.

Smith and Wesson Model LXIII .XXII/XXXII Kit Gun

I meant to run this one last weekend, but I forgot and ran my M&P 9c instead. I ran a couple of cylinders first just to get the feel right, and then I ran the drill. This time, I loaded 7 rounds and indexed on the empty cylinder. For some reason, I was still thinking that I'd accidentally start a string with only two rounds left, but I'd "learned my lesson" from before. (That's in quotes because this left me open to starting a string with one round, which is better than starting with two somehow?) I was cocky and ran the full sheet one-handed, and super-fast. I was more careful after that. The arrow points to a spot where two rounds hit almost on top of each other.

Ruger Mark 4 XXII/XLV

Nothing too exciting here, just a ton of fun on a bun in the sun with a gun. I ran one magazine to warm up. I believe you can see it in the #4 target here. I love this new trigger. These strings sounded like, "... BEEEEP! (beat) POP POP POP (beat) BEEEEP!!" I flew through this one. The heavy barrel and new accurizing kit made this a breeze, and if I ran this drill more with this gun, the groups would tighten up a lot.

Crosman Vigilante (Formerly the CRCCCLVII, which is written on the box of mine... but the manual says Vigilante... and it has the Vigilante molding but lacks either name. Transition model!)

I painted the front sight with some proper sight paint. I'm never going back to nail polish again. I've been shooting this quite a bit lately, both BBs and pellets, and I ran this with pellets. I was going to run it with BBs, but I was running out of time. I decided to actually do the full drill, so there are nine shots per sheet. I added arrows because this is 5-star notebook paper, and these pellets, which at 3 yards normally leave pretty good holes in paper, were leaving ragged torn holes that don't show up well in the photo. As this ammo shortage goes on, I'm probably going to acquire more airguns. I'd like an entry level target pistol at some point, and I'm getting a new replica pretty soon. But this is a fun little revolver, and at 9 feet, it's hard to miss.

Gray Stormy
Dec 19, 2006



PASSED!

Ran with my G19(Gen 3, Agency 416 comp, Apex trigger, CAP sights) from AIWB with t-shirt concealment. The times on the third target were a bit closer to the par time than I was expecting. My second string finished at something like 2.94.

[timg]https://i.imgur.com/KdaUgTZ[timg]


I didnt notice the extra hit or two from my buddy until after I had taken the picture



Overall I wasnt expecting this to be as close as it was but it was a good time, as drill usually are

infrared35
Jan 12, 2005

border patrol qt


Plaster Town Cop

Leaderboard updated! Will nobody pick up the gauntlet for SAO?

tarlibone
Aug 1, 2014

Am I a... bad person?
AM I??





Fun Shoe

Getting my Wrangler into the ready position and firing three shots in three seconds is a lot.

Maybe I can try this with Mrs. T's 1911 or Baby Rock.

infrared35
Jan 12, 2005

border patrol qt


Plaster Town Cop

tarlibone posted:

Getting my Wrangler into the ready position and firing three shots in three seconds is a lot.

Maybe I can try this with Mrs. T's 1911 or Baby Rock.

Yesss.

I tried and failed with a 2011 from AIWB. Maybe I'll try for laughs with a Ruger Blackhawk.

Davin Valkri
Apr 8, 2011

Maybe you're weighing the moral pros and cons but let me assure you that OH MY GOD
SHOOT ME IN THE GODDAMNED FACE
WHAT ARE YOU WAITING FOR?!


Did I hear someone say "single action"?

I...didn't do very well. The first sequence was from low ready (and I think includes a miss), and the second was pickup from the bench (which definitely includes both misses and over time).

I also did one for DAO revolver (Pass on the low ready, fail on the bench)...


...and one for rimfire (both passed, amazingly!)


I have a couple more guns I want to do this with, since I didn't get yelled at for doing this one. I'm still not quite used to shooting at speed, but this seems like a nice easy way to practice it.

infrared35
Jan 12, 2005

border patrol qt


Plaster Town Cop

Finally nailed it with an SAO. Ran it a second time to be sure, and passed again. Then I ran it a third time just in case the first two were flukes. Good to go.

Dumb thing is, the smaller the target got, the bigger my groups got.

Thelonious
Jul 15, 2005



This morning work found me out in the sticks not terribly far from camp. Once we wrapped the job we went out to make sure the place was still standing. Decided it was a good time to rotate my carry ammo and try this drill cold. Dug some scrap paper and earplugs out of the van and had my partner set a par timer on his phone.



Ran it under par from concealment (strong side IWB). Which I was pretty pleased with since I only had one run. 9+1 in the gun and a spare 10 rounder.



Thought I botched the half sheet but there were in fact four rounds through two holes.

Will try and run it again with other guns when I get out for some proper range time.


Edit: Should've clarified it's a Dan Wesson Guardian. Lightweight Commander in .38 Super. Fudd as gently caress but I've got a small mountain of Super so it's the pistol I currently shoot the most and best. It carries nice too. You wouldn't think the bobtail would be like it is, but it do.

Thelonious fucked around with this message at 03:14 on Apr 10, 2021

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infrared35
Jan 12, 2005

border patrol qt


Plaster Town Cop

Thelonious posted:

This morning work found me out in the sticks not terribly far from camp. Once we wrapped the job we went out to make sure the place was still standing. Decided it was a good time to rotate my carry ammo and try this drill cold. Dug some scrap paper and earplugs out of the van and had my partner set a par timer on his phone.



Ran it under par from concealment (strong side IWB). Which I was pretty pleased with since I only had one run. 9+1 in the gun and a spare 10 rounder.



Thought I botched the half sheet but there were in fact four rounds through two holes.

Will try and run it again with other guns when I get out for some proper range time.

Nice! Leaderboard has been updated.

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