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Haifisch
Nov 12, 2010

Objection! I object! That was... objectionable!



Taco Defender
(I guess we're spoilering skills, even the early ones?) I like that the basic logic of 'that person is undeniably a human/enemy based on these obvious, uncontestable facts' is a skill gated behind logic 20. :allears:

It really adds something to how Raqio is the one calling Definite Human/Enemy 99% of the time.

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Haifisch
Nov 12, 2010

Objection! I object! That was... objectionable!



Taco Defender
Yeah, I've never been called out for talking too much and I generally don't initiate an action more than 1-2 times a day(they don't seem to care as much about following up on someone else's doubt/defense actions).

Haifisch
Nov 12, 2010

Objection! I object! That was... objectionable!



Taco Defender

GiantRockFromSpace posted:

Edit: Oh, and on another note, I've noticed you can see one character who likes you and dislikes you on the menu: is that a representation of the actual values or is it a thing in every loop where someone trusts you and someone doesn't?
That shows who currently likes/dislikes you most - if you pay attention you'll notice it changes as you go after/defend specific characters a lot, or as people get killed/frozen. The like one gets replaced by your collaborator if you have one, too.

Haifisch
Nov 12, 2010

Objection! I object! That was... objectionable!



Taco Defender
If you're getting eliminated that early that often, your charm stat sucks and/or you're doing stuff that makes the AI hate you(talking too much, picking on characters that are really good at turning everyone against you, being bad at lying while gnosia).

A lot of strategic options open up as you unlock skills and build your stats, and in general the game makes more sense as you learn how each character operates.

I agree that the music could stand a lot more variety, though.

Haifisch
Nov 12, 2010

Objection! I object! That was... objectionable!



Taco Defender
All this discussion of creepy art and nobody's talking about Shigemichi. Dude doesn't even wear pants! No wonder he always gets voted for deep freeze in the first couple days. :v:

Haifisch
Nov 12, 2010

Objection! I object! That was... objectionable!



Taco Defender
I'm liking the way some(but not too many) events are strategy hints. Most of Raqio's events are 'if XYZ is the situation, who is gnosia/human/whatever(or can you even definitively tell)' tutorials with them being surprised if you can do basic logic before answering. Then there's one group event where Raqio suggests looking for gnosia by seeing who defends each other too much, before the other people in the event point out that they're 100% the type of rear end in a top hat who would throw their own allies under the bus if they're gnosia. :allears:

Haifisch
Nov 12, 2010

Objection! I object! That was... objectionable!



Taco Defender
Sometimes I really wish the summary at the end of the game would let you see more specifically what triggered Definite Human for people.

In my most recent game, both Chipie and Shigemichi claimed engineer(with Chipie being Gnosia & Shige being the real one). Partway through everyone started treating Chipie's reports as 100% accurate for Definite Human purposes, which confused me to no end(there was also one point where Stella realized I was definitely human, based on no apparent train of logic or evidence except Shige saying I was while Chipie was still around). We did eventually win but I have no idea what triggered the Definite Human actions. And those were across multiple days, not a wave of 'oh ok everyone is human except for the one person who has to be gnosia'.

Haifisch
Nov 12, 2010

Objection! I object! That was... objectionable!



Taco Defender

HenryEx posted:

It's usually a combination of which engineer/doctor reported what, combined with who died via Gnosia and who must have thus definitely lied. By process of elimination (figuratively or literally), you can end up knowing someone must be human by cross-referncing reports.

It's hrd to tell for your specific case without knowing who reported what and who died when.
I actually took screenshots of the endgame log because I was that confused. (although in retrospect I should have taken them of the entire log and not just the parts that seemed related to what confused me)

-Chipie and Shige never investigated the same person at all.
-Shige lived all the way to the end, so there was no 'Chipie was obviously lying about being engineer because Shige got murdered'.
-Chipie only got Definite Enemy after literally everyone else was either dead/on ice or declared Definite Human.
-Chipie never claimed anyone was gnosia, and never pretended to investigate the other gnosia.
-Stella was the only doctor claimant & claimed on day 1(and I immediately Definite Humaned her, because that's obvious even to me :v:). She never investigated anyone that Chipie pretended to. She did check Raqio and corraborated Shige's real investigation that said they were Gnosia.
-There was no AC follower, Bug, or Guard Duty in the game.
-Day 1 we froze SQ(who turned out to be Gnosia but didn't claim any roles or get spotted lying by anyone).
-Day 2 had Chipie say Sha-ming was human and Shige say Raqio was Gnosia. The same day, Stella said that Sha-ming was definitely human. Raqio was frozen that night.
-Day 3 had Chipie say Kukrushka was human and Shige say I was human. This was immediately followed up by Otome saying Kukrushka was definitely human. Later that day Otome also said Setsu was definitely human, despite Setsu not having been investigated by anyone or claiming any roles.

I'm sure there's some chain of logic that could lead to the various Definite Human results but I figured that sitting there 10 minutes was the max I was willing to spend on that.

Haifisch
Nov 12, 2010

Objection! I object! That was... objectionable!



Taco Defender
I figured that was what happened on the last day, it was just the previous days that confused me since it appeared that characters were just taking Chipie's fake examinations as fact(which were incidentally correct, but still).

Haifisch
Nov 12, 2010

Objection! I object! That was... objectionable!



Taco Defender
Events where you have to keep a specific character unfrozen to the end with them as Gnosia are the loving worst. :negative:

I finally managed Sha-ming's by turning the number of total players down to 8 and managing a double freeze when people couldn't decide between voting for the real engineer and an AC Follower engineer. Gina's continues to plague me(you'd think it'd be easier since I don't officially know she's gnosia & am a human myself, so there's no worrying about lying, but noooo), although at least she doesn't have as much text to buttonmash through when her 'please help me stay until the end of this loop' event pops up.

e: and of course the first game after I say that, I manage to get that event & I didn't need to keep her around more than a day. Apparently Gina's so bad at lying she was repeatedly getting frozen immediately after the 'please keep me alive until we pass through the system' event.

Haifisch fucked around with this message at 05:46 on Apr 1, 2021

Haifisch
Nov 12, 2010

Objection! I object! That was... objectionable!



Taco Defender
You can never permanently miss an event, but they're not guaranteed to fire every time it seems(other events may take priority? I'm not sure how the game prioritizes things). Event Search sets things up so an event is highly likely to trigger, but it's still not guaranteed.

Haifisch
Nov 12, 2010

Objection! I object! That was... objectionable!



Taco Defender

Fedule posted:

Yeah, Raqio was the one making big splashy arguments, I was just backing them up sometimes. I guess the Gnosia AI doesn't reason about the Guardian Angel, it just targets whoever it most hates.
Different characters actually choose targets differently as gnosia. Emotional characters avoid killing people they like and beeline towards people they hate(which is sometimes hilarious if, say, they're pretending to be the doctor/engineer and kill the only other one), more logical characters go for the rational targets(ex. killing both Guard Duty first, killing people who've caught onto them, not killing the real doctor/engineer if they're pretending to be that), and SQ and Jonas just kinda go for whoever. I'm not sure how the game decides which gnosia is the killer each night if the player isn't one of the gnosia, though.

Haifisch
Nov 12, 2010

Objection! I object! That was... objectionable!



Taco Defender
Everyone dunks on Shigemichi but I'm convinced Gina is even worse at this than he is.

e:

Pollyanna posted:

I think Im too stupid for this game. :negative: 99% of the time I have no real idea who could possibly be good or bad, especially with no clues to work off of. Ive done multiple games now where I get ganged up on by two Gnosia and an AC picking off the rest of the party without me being able to tell whos who.

This feels extremely random. Is there a way to tell what the gently caress is going on?
A large part of it is learning how each character operates so you can pick up on when they're being suspicious, and which characters to pay attention to when they suddenly start going after someone for no apparent reason(looking over the log at the end of each game can help with this, since you can go 'ohhhh, Comet suddenly started picking on Shigemichi because she noticed he was lying'. Or like in the screenshot below, 'oh, everyone turned on Gina because a bunch of people noticed her lying'. :v:).

Unlocking skills(and by extension, the AI characters getting their own skills) also helps reduce the amount of everyone flailing around at random. High intuition can help you notice lies, but it has to be so high for this to be even semi-reliable that I wouldn't invest in intuition just for that.

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Haifisch fucked around with this message at 01:33 on Apr 6, 2021

Haifisch
Nov 12, 2010

Objection! I object! That was... objectionable!



Taco Defender

Fedule posted:

The more people talk and act the more information you have. Watch for Comet, Chipie, and Remnan suddenly accusing people; they're intuitive and might have flashed on a lie. It's usually a solid plan to throw shade at whoever yesterday's victim voted for. Check the reports and try and draw inferences. And read the in-game help, it lists a lot of esoteric logic tricks you can use on people.
On this note, once you unlock Say You're Human, it's a good idea to use it relatively early on as non-gnosia/AC/bug if none of the AI beats you to it. The sheer volume of people talking makes it more likely that someone will notice a liar, and people not speaking up(if they're not one of the characters who almost never participates in a round of Say You're Human) acts as another tell.

Haifisch
Nov 12, 2010

Objection! I object! That was... objectionable!



Taco Defender
Certain characters tend to get voted out easily if there's no more obvious choice, and Comet's one of them. But given how lopsided those events were, I'm guessing she got caught in a lie(and Comet is really bad at lying).

Incidentally, it's worth looking at the character data for everyone(people who aren't in your current loop won't appear as an option though) and scrolling down to see their stats+blurb if you haven't already. It explains a lot about who tends to randomly get booted day 1, who's good at picking up on lies, who's bad at lying, etc.

Haifisch
Nov 12, 2010

Objection! I object! That was... objectionable!



Taco Defender
In that case it was likely just an unfortunate dogpile that she couldn't defend against because she's really bad at defending herself(and once a dogpile starts, it tends to feed into itself unless the player does something about it or until something else leads the AI to another character).

Haifisch
Nov 12, 2010

Objection! I object! That was... objectionable!



Taco Defender

cheetah7071 posted:

Can someone spoil for me what conditions you're supposed to use for the final loop? The one where the game doesn't tell you what kind of game you need to play? I have a guess but it's hard settings that I'd have to grind a lot to even get one win in and it'd be super annoying if it wasn't even right.
Set the gnosia count as low as the game will let you. Literally.

Haifisch
Nov 12, 2010

Objection! I object! That was... objectionable!



Taco Defender

cheetah7071 posted:

For Remnan: Use the "cover" action on him. You'll get a scene later where he thanks you, continuing the event
Note that defending him after someone doubts him works too. I think this may be the intended way to discover it, given his dialog afterward.

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Haifisch
Nov 12, 2010

Objection! I object! That was... objectionable!



Taco Defender
To be clear: Defend and Cover both work(I suspect it's the same action mechanically, just with different timing and flavor text). After that it's keeping him alive, yeah.

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