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Oct 30, 2011

Haifisch posted:

I actually took screenshots of the endgame log because I was that confused. (although in retrospect I should have taken them of the entire log and not just the parts that seemed related to what confused me)

-Chipie and Shige never investigated the same person at all.
-Shige lived all the way to the end, so there was no 'Chipie was obviously lying about being engineer because Shige got murdered'.
-Chipie only got Definite Enemy after literally everyone else was either dead/on ice or declared Definite Human.
-Chipie never claimed anyone was gnosia, and never pretended to investigate the other gnosia.
-Stella was the only doctor claimant & claimed on day 1(and I immediately Definite Humaned her, because that's obvious even to me :v:). She never investigated anyone that Chipie pretended to. She did check Raqio and corraborated Shige's real investigation that said they were Gnosia.
-There was no AC follower, Bug, or Guard Duty in the game.
-Day 1 we froze SQ(who turned out to be Gnosia but didn't claim any roles or get spotted lying by anyone).
-Day 2 had Chipie say Sha-ming was human and Shige say Raqio was Gnosia. The same day, Stella said that Sha-ming was definitely human. Raqio was frozen that night.
-Day 3 had Chipie say Kukrushka was human and Shige say I was human. This was immediately followed up by Otome saying Kukrushka was definitely human. Later that day Otome also said Setsu was definitely human, despite Setsu not having been investigated by anyone or claiming any roles.

I'm sure there's some chain of logic that could lead to the various Definite Human results but I figured that sitting there 10 minutes was the max I was willing to spend on that.

So you've got three Gnosia, no AC Follower, no Bug, so you've got three liers. Stella confirmed two of them in SQ and Raqio.

So, the first question is, why was Chipie saying Sha-ming was human informing that he was human? It wasn't, really. It was Shigemichi saying Raqio was Gnosia. There are two options: Shigemichi is lying, or Chipie is lying. In a set of Day 1 claims, one of them is definitely human.

If Chipie is telling the truth, then Sha-ming is human, great! What if Shigemichi is telling the truth? Then Chipie is lying, making him Gnosia...but also, then Shigemichi is telling the truth, making Raqio Gnosia. There's no other options: either Chipie is Gnosia and thus Shigemichi must be correct and Raqio is Gnosia (making everyone else human) or Chipie is human and Shigemichi must be Gnosia (making anyone Chipie declares human definitely so).

Day 3 comes, and Stella confirms Raqio as Gnosia. So we've got two Gnosia on ice, meaning the third one is one of the two declared Engineers. From here, everyone else can be declared as Definite Human but Shigemichi and Chipie, because there's only one Gnosia left. You eventually ice Chipie and get confused as to how this happened, because everyone just suddenly became human for no reason?

Well, here's what happened.

You know after the fact that Chipie is Gnosia, and so you get confused because why was Chipie's fake report exonerating of Sha-ming? But you're working backward from the conclusion there: the answer isn't that Chipie's fake report revealed anything, it's that Chipie's possibly real report plus Shigemichi's possibly real report together reveal the truth: either one Engineer is right about someone being human, or the other one is right about someone being Gnosia and so the only remaining Gnosia is the other Engineer.

As with lots of logic puzzles, the solution can be obtained by starting by assuming a premise is true and seeing if you arrive at a contradiction.

tl;dr: Chipie was Gnosia but that doesn't change the fact that anyone he cleared had to be considered human once Shigemichi's report of Raqio was taken into account, because either his reports are true or Shigemichi's are true, and any place the two reports both point to someone being human mean that person must be human because one report must be true, not both and not zero.


Oct 30, 2011

WhiteHowler posted:

I just picked this up, and I'm on loop 25 or so.

I don't really know what I'm doing, but if these idiots would just listen to me, we'd win almost every time.

Or, rather, I'd win almost every time.

Accurate to the real life game in every fashion.

Oct 30, 2011

Fat Samurai posted:

I have a doubt on how the Bug works.

Day 1, Engineer and Bug claim. Engineer checks Bug, Bug dies that night. That's the only death. Engineer reports Bug was human (which I really think should give a different message, BTW). Do Gnosia attacks just outright fail if they target the Bug, or was it the Guardian Angel's power in action?

No need to spoiler role names,, they're right in the manual.

Gnosia attacks fail if the target is a Bug or if the target was protected by a Guardian Angel. Until the end of the game, no one knows why the attack failed,, just that it did.

The Bug dies if they're investigated by the Engineer. If the Engineer investigates someone and the Gnosia attack that same someone, neither side will know for sure if they're the reason their target died until the end of the game. If the Engineer investigates the Bug but the Gnosia attack someone else, no one will know which of the two was the Bug until the end of the game except the roles in question.

If the Engineer investigates the Bug and the Gnosia attack someone elsewho is then protected by the Guardian Angel, the Gnosia know the Bug has been taken out of play, and that's it. No one else will know anything: the Engineer will probably suspect that their target was the Bug, but won't be able to be sure unless it's a small game and every role gets claimed or deduced.

In the absurd but still very possible chance that same person who was investigated by the Engineer and attacked by the Gnosia was also protected by the Guardian Angel, the only person who will know the truth of what happened is the Guardian Angel themself, who will be aware their target couldn't have possibly died to the Gnosia and so the Engineer's report is true (and thus outing to only the Guardian Angel any potential AC Follower/Gnosia who didn't report the same). There's no way to claim this trail of logic, sadly, but it wouldn't surprise me if an AI Guardian Angel in that position is capable of using that information.

Oct 30, 2011

PlasticAutomaton posted:

So, I'm just near the end of the game, but I seem to be a little bit stuck getting the last bit of crew info.

All I have left at this point is Remnan's last info piece which I need to be crew for. It's been several loops using the event finder since I saw loop 0 and I'm kinda just stuck. Any ideas?

There's an ability you probably don't use much.

Full answer: Defend Remnan and keep him alive.

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