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mcbexx
Jul 4, 2004

British dentistry is
not on trial here!




Everyone hates Mage and Refreshing Spring Water, but hear me out:

Why does it only refresh 3 Mana when you coin into it?
You get an extra Mana for the whole turn. Why would the coined mana vanish before refreshing to back to 4?

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Color Printer
May 9, 2011

You get used to it. I don't
even see the code. All I see
is Ipecac, Scapular, Polyphemus...




mcbexx posted:

Everyone hates Mage and Refreshing Spring Water, but hear me out:

Why does it only refresh 3 Mana when you coin into it?
You get an extra Mana for the whole turn. Why would the coined mana vanish before refreshing to back to 4?

That's how druid Innervate works, temporary mana crystals are destroyed when spent

Cart
Sep 28, 2004

They see me rollin...


No Wave posted:

It's interesting how crazy DoL ended up when Academic Espionage was so medium for so long (I loved academic espionage, obnoxious highroll card but escaped being good enough for people to care). I think guaranteeing high cost spells is what does it, because drawing mana discounted high cost spells is so much better than drawing 0 cost cheap cards.

I don't remember Rogue having quite that much card draw back then either. Between Arcane Intellect, Spring Whatever and Cram Session there's a ton of draw that you should be saving in hand prior to drawing DoL.

Tess Rogue was one of the most fun decks though and it's a shame to not see it in core.

AnacondaHL
Feb 15, 2009


mcbexx posted:

Everyone hates Mage and Refreshing Spring Water, but hear me out:

Why does it only refresh 3 Mana when you coin into it?
You get an extra Mana for the whole turn. Why would the coined mana vanish before refreshing to back to 4?

It's refresh, not gain.

No Wave
Sep 18, 2005

Yogg-Saron fan #1


The text on the coin is misleading. It says "gain a mana crystal this turn only" which isn't really accurate as it's different from a standard mana crystal.

blizzardvizard
Sep 12, 2012

Shhh... don't wake up the sleeping lion



RatHat posted:

Guessing Sword of the Fallen(Either cost +1 or durability -1), Conviction(2 attack instead of 3), Fresh Spring Water(Only regens 1 mana per spell), Field Contact(Bumped 1 mana), Pen Flinger(Only targets minions), and 2 mana Watchpost(Bumped to 3 mana or health reduced by 1) will be the cards nerfed.

EDIT: Actually that might be too much for Conviction. Bump it to 2 mana then?

Deck of Lunacy (and Pen Flinger) are almost certainly getting nerfed, they've mentioned those cards by name in a previous tweet.

Cant Ride A Bus
Apr 9, 2012

"Batman, Bruce Wayne. Bruce Wayne, Batman. Or have you met?"


DoL is definitely getting a nerf. Especially with the tournaments coming up. Alec has said in interviews that they really donít want the random generated wins to be super prevalent since it tends to leave everyone with a bad taste in their mouth.

Crossing my fingers for a pen flinger nerf. Itís a great card but Iíll be happy to never play it again.

PneumonicBook
Sep 26, 2007

Do you like our owl?





Ultra Carp

Cant Ride A Bus posted:

DoL is definitely getting a nerf. Especially with the tournaments coming up. Alec has said in interviews that they really donít want the random generated wins to be super prevalent since it tends to leave everyone with a bad taste in their mouth.

Crossing my fingers for a pen flinger nerf. Itís a great card but Iíll be happy to never play it again.

Glad that they said that they're (just now lol) assigning more power rating to cards that randomly generate things.

Only took a couple years.

sirtommygunn
Mar 7, 2013





To be fair, card generation did significantly improve across the board with the removal of basic/classic.

victorious
Jul 2, 2007

As a youth I prayed, "Give me chastity and continence, but not yet."


In the 6.5 years I've been playing this game there have been many, many decks that have felt unfair to play against. Lunacy Mage is I think the first one I've encountered that straight up feels like the opponent is cheating. I'd definitely be playing it if I had the card.

Bremen
Jul 20, 2006

Our God..... is an awesome God

victorious posted:

In the 6.5 years I've been playing this game there have been many, many decks that have felt unfair to play against. Lunacy Mage is I think the first one I've encountered that straight up feels like the opponent is cheating. I'd definitely be playing it if I had the card.

Yeah, I was watching Kibler streaming at legend and half his opponents were DoL mage and it just looked completely unfun to play against; it wasn't just overwhelmingly powerful but also completely unfun to go up against because there was basically nothing the other player could do. I was actually surprised to see comments in here saying they weren't sure it needed to be nerfed, because it seemed worse even than secret paladin (which was both less common and a deck you can at least try to play around).

skaboomizzy
Nov 12, 2003

There is nothing I want to be. There is nothing I want to do.
I don't even have an image of what I want to be. I have nothing. All that exists is zero.

Grimey Drawer

There are still plenty of times where DoL will just whiff and you lose badly. I'm playing it right now and my DoL generated cards in hand are Idol of Y'Shaarj, Jewel of N'Zoth, Grand Finale, and Power Word: Fortitude against a full board. womp womp

I like the deck. It's fun as hell and it feels like an Omaha poker game where you have a shitload of draws that can hit you and get you a win if you play them right, but you can also just get wrecked even if you hit DoL early.

Amoeba102
Jan 22, 2010



Seems like an RNG fest that should never be good as the basis for a deck.

mcbexx
Jul 4, 2004

British dentistry is
not on trial here!




Power Word: Fortitude is bugged when created by Deck of Lunacy

Despite having seven other spells in hand, the mana cost remains a fixed 5.
I even drew 3 more with Hand of Gul'dan and the cost did not change.

Cry Havoc
May 10, 2004

This cyberpunk cartoon avatar is pretty dang ol' good, I tell you what.

maybe itís secretly each holy spell

kaaj
Jun 23, 2013

don't stop, carry on.


I see lots of suggestions for nerfing Pen Flinger, is it really that bad? I hate the card and I'd gladly pay a microtransaction fee to never hear "Hey Loser" again, but it's not as strong as it used to be? Or maybe the meta shifted enough that I don't see it being played as often.

blizzardvizard
Sep 12, 2012

Shhh... don't wake up the sleeping lion



It's probably the strongest it's ever been because Libram Secrets is arguably the strongest deck in the meta right now, and part of their strength is how they can abuse 0-cost Librams and Pen Flingers. They've been able to do this since Scholomance, but Paladin got a bunch of new cards that allowed the deck to play a more aggressive game with Pen Flingers instead of just using them mainly as a board control tool

blizzardvizard fucked around with this message at 05:05 on Apr 7, 2021

orangelex44
Oct 11, 2012

Definition of orange:

Any of a group of colors that are between red and yellow in hue. Middle English, from Anglo-French, from Old Occitan, from Arabic, from Persian, from Sanskrit.

Definition of lex:

Law. Latin.

Pen Flinger is fine from a balance perspective. It's certainly top end, but it's not broken. The reason people hate it is that it's annoying, both from the voice line and from the repetitive nature of dying from a million little pings. The only interaction that it's actually concerning for is Libram Paladin. I wouldn't nerf it, but there's enough outcry that it might happen anyway.

I think Deck of Lunacy is a perfect example of a card that will get nerfed now, and un-nerfed when it goes to Wild. If there was a bigger pool of expensive spells in standard it would go back to being kinda mediocre - playable, but not consistently game-winning. Right now you can beat it, but honestly that's only if the Mage got unlucky by drawing it late or by getting low rolls. There's very little that you can do as an opponent to influence the outcome.

Sword of the Fallen is going to get hit, the only question is how hard. I'm guessing mana to 3 but they might do durability to 2 instead/as well.

mcbexx posted:

Everyone hates Mage and Refreshing Spring Water, but hear me out:

Why does it only refresh 3 Mana when you coin into it?
You get an extra Mana for the whole turn. Why would the coined mana vanish before refreshing to back to 4?

Have you considered "gently caress Mage"? Priest gets nothing from extra copies of Shadowform, unless you consider 4 mana deal 2 damage to be a worthwhile exchange. If Druid can inexplicably get card draw from their ramp spells (which are much, much stronger cards in the first place), Priests should get something better too. Mage getting screwed out of a one mana refund in an edge case scenario on an already busted card is not worth complaining about.

gandlethorpe
Aug 16, 2008



kaaj posted:

I see lots of suggestions for nerfing Pen Flinger, is it really that bad? I hate the card and I'd gladly pay a microtransaction fee to never hear "Hey Loser" again, but it's not as strong as it used to be? Or maybe the meta shifted enough that I don't see it being played as often.

I might be biased because I play it in a non-meta hunter deck, and I've loved the card since it came out (got me to legend for the first time with Scholomance). But I think the real problem is letting it work on 0 mana cards. No one complains about Pen Flinger outside of rogue and libram paladin, both of which abuse 0 mana like hell.

Having had some horrible encounters with other spellbursts being triggered with 0 mana spells *cough* priest *cough*, I'm fully convinced the keyword needs to only work when you actually spend mana.

Nybble
Jun 28, 2008


HIT IT VERY HARD


Feels like a good portion of nerfs in Hearthstone are solidly because of reducing some cards to Zero mana. Maybe one day theyíll recognize this issue!

blizzardvizard
Sep 12, 2012

Shhh... don't wake up the sleeping lion



0-cost cards being problematic for balance is a time-old story in card games, so I'm sure they're actually aware of this already. At the same time though, cheaper cards make the game more fun if for no other reason than because you get to do more actions per turn, so I'm also sure that they consider it a necessary evil and are going to try building around it instead.

gandlethorpe
Aug 16, 2008



Nybble posted:

Feels like a good portion of nerfs in Hearthstone are solidly because of reducing some cards to Zero mana. Maybe one day theyíll recognize this issue!

Nah, just keep giving the ability to do it to the same 5 classes and gently caress the others!

Actually, is it just hunter, shaman, and warrior that don't constantly get 0 mana stuff?

PneumonicBook
Sep 26, 2007

Do you like our owl?





Ultra Carp

mcbexx posted:

Power Word: Fortitude is bugged when created by Deck of Lunacy

Despite having seven other spells in hand, the mana cost remains a fixed 5.
I even drew 3 more with Hand of Gul'dan and the cost did not change.



Seeing the screenshot of a Nagrand Slam on the board is highly triggering haha.

Acerbatus
Jun 26, 2020


There's something incredibly funny about someone playing the 1 cost libram cost reducer and then kazzakus without realizing what they've done

gandlethorpe
Aug 16, 2008



PneumonicBook posted:

Seeing the screenshot of a Nagrand Slam on the board is highly triggering haha.

This was really cathartic. I managed to play Nagrand Slam as a hunter vs mage and win because of it



Loving maining a class that has two spells that belong 100% to other classes.

Patrick Spens
Jul 21, 2006

"Every quarterback says they've got guts, But how many have actually seen 'em?"


Pillbug

I don't know if Priest is any good right now, but running a Warlock completely out of gas after they play C'thun and Jaraxxus feels pretty great.

Cant Ride A Bus
Apr 9, 2012

"Batman, Bruce Wayne. Bruce Wayne, Batman. Or have you met?"


gandlethorpe posted:

Having had some horrible encounters with other spellbursts being triggered with 0 mana spells *cough* priest *cough*, I'm fully convinced the keyword needs to only work when you actually spend mana.

I like this. It would be a good way for Spellburst to work that would make things like Flinger perfectly fine.

It would also be an unintentional buff for Speaker Gidra and lmao sheíd be absolutely ridiculous. I love that card

GTO
Sep 16, 2003



One reason Deck of lunacy is strong is the current small card pool meaning you can predict what you'll get from it and rig it to be strong. As more expansions come out it will probably get weaker. If there was another 10 cost minion buff spell it would be significantly weaker right now.

Flayer
Sep 13, 2003

Enjoyment and excitement



Buglord

Penflinger could get the Dreadsteed nerf and only get returned to hand at the end of the turn.

Quotey
Aug 16, 2006



skaboomizzy posted:

There are still plenty of times where DoL will just whiff and you lose badly. I'm playing it right now and my DoL generated cards in hand are Idol of Y'Shaarj, Jewel of N'Zoth, Grand Finale, and Power Word: Fortitude against a full board. womp womp

I like the deck. It's fun as hell and it feels like an Omaha poker game where you have a shitload of draws that can hit you and get you a win if you play them right, but you can also just get wrecked even if you hit DoL early.

It sounds like you might have C'Thun in your deck. Cut it so you don't get many 8 mana spells!

enki42
Jun 11, 2001
#ATMLIVESMATTER

Put this Nazi-lover on ignore immediately!


Oh My Yogg transforming an Apexis Blast into a Blessing of Authority is probably my favourite interaction in all of Hearthstone. At Diamond 5 with Secret Libram Paladin right now, and climbing has never been this easy.

Unless you completely flub the mulligan (and honestly even sometimes when you do) your curve is just unbeatable. A lot of mages are overly focused on their own gameplan over keeping me in check though - like leaving up Silver hands in favour of casting Incanter's flow on 2.

Feeling not so hot about including Kazakus the more I play though, it's super frustrating when you've discounted librams by 1 and can't play him. Cariel seems pointless in this deck, I'm never really hurting for mana for spells. Maybe a second Oh My Yogg? (I'm running one right now)

enki42 fucked around with this message at 11:52 on Apr 7, 2021

Valiantman
Jun 25, 2011

Ways to circumvent the Compact #6: Find a dreaming god and affect his dreams so that they become reality. Hey, it's not like it's you who's affecting the world. Blame the other guy for irresponsibly falling asleep.

Thank you for whoever it was that recommended a weapon/secret rogue for climbing the ladder. I made one that is just a weapon package and a secret package plus Jandice Barov. It's fun and I've now climbed to platinum with about 2/3rds win percentage. It's strong against mages and works pretty well against warlocks. Paladin and especially taunt druid are still hard matchups but at least Oh My Yogg isn't that bad since you don't have critical spells you can't afford to spend.

Cart
Sep 28, 2004

They see me rollin...


I recently had a game as Paladin where I had 3 Pen Flingers (1 generated from First Day of School) and both discounted Librams by T4. Every single turn was so long with the three pings, I was amazed my opponent didnít quit there and then.

It was vs. Control Warlock too.

Orange Crush Rush
May 7, 2009

You don't need thumbs for revenge

Bremen posted:

Yeah, I was watching Kibler streaming at legend and half his opponents were DoL mage and it just looked completely unfun to play against; it wasn't just overwhelmingly powerful but also completely unfun to go up against because there was basically nothing the other player could do. I was actually surprised to see comments in here saying they weren't sure it needed to be nerfed, because it seemed worse even than secret paladin (which was both less common and a deck you can at least try to play around).

Kibler said on Twitter that he had like an 80% win rate against Secret Paladin, and wondered if people are just pretty bad at not playing into Paladin secrets atm.

I have noticed that at least right now, people are triggering Galloping and seem to have zero plans for the new 3/4

enki42
Jun 11, 2001
#ATMLIVESMATTER

Put this Nazi-lover on ignore immediately!


Definitely I feel like no one is really thinking about counterplay right now. There's zero weapon removal out there, despite weapons being pretty core to the gameplans of Warrior, Rogue and Paladin (not that Warrior is really in the meta much, but still), and people do all sorts of dumb stuff against paladin secrets, like taking out 1-1s when there's another minion on board and a secret up (triggering Avenge), or dumping all their mana and not testing for Oh my Yogg at all, even when they're not really in a desperate position, or like I mentioned earlier, leaving Silver Hand Recruits up when they could be pinged down with a hero power.

quote:

I have noticed that at least right now, people are triggering Galloping and seem to have zero plans for the new 3/4

I love when a rogue or mage is in GO GO GO PLAY CARDS mode and then just stops for 5 seconds when Galloping triggers.

enki42 fucked around with this message at 13:22 on Apr 7, 2021

blizzardvizard
Sep 12, 2012

Shhh... don't wake up the sleeping lion



Adding Ooze is just a bad idea in a meta that is 50% Mage, and Oozing the Sword isn't even really a big deal against the Libram variant, the Secrets package is just a side thing for them.

Sometimes depending on your hand you may also just gotta take the L and spend 4 mana on that Refreshing Spring Water when there's a potential Oh My Yogg up. When I was climbing people definitely forgot about Galloping Savior a lot, though, likely a combination of it being a new card and people just not keeping track of how many cards they played. But at higher ranks people got better at playing around them.

The problem is also that trying to target Paladin makes you weaker against Mage and vice-versa. Aggro decks can try to burst the Mage down, but they get stonewalled by Paladin. Control decks can outlast Paladin, but they can't usually do the same versus Mage. So anyone not playing the two classes are just stuck between a rock and a hard place.

PneumonicBook
Sep 26, 2007

Do you like our owl?





Ultra Carp

enki42 posted:

Oh My Yogg transforming an Apexis Blast into a Blessing of Authority is probably my favourite interaction in all of Hearthstone. At Diamond 5 with Secret Libram Paladin right now, and climbing has never been this easy.

Unless you completely flub the mulligan (and honestly even sometimes when you do) your curve is just unbeatable. A lot of mages are overly focused on their own gameplan over keeping me in check though - like leaving up Silver hands in favour of casting Incanter's flow on 2.

Feeling not so hot about including Kazakus the more I play though, it's super frustrating when you've discounted librams by 1 and can't play him. Cariel seems pointless in this deck, I'm never really hurting for mana for spells. Maybe a second Oh My Yogg? (I'm running one right now)

Cariel being the only rush minion in the deck is useful, and absolutely play two oh my yoggs. I also dropped avenge for the Prime murloc.

blizzardvizard
Sep 12, 2012

Shhh... don't wake up the sleeping lion



Cariel is good, dropping a Libram of Hope even just one turn earlier can be back-breaking.

Elysium
Aug 21, 2003
It is by will alone I set my mind in motion.

So my biggest problem with Lunacy Mage right now is that all the spells you can get in Standard are boring as gently caress.

They should "nerf" Deck of Lunacy to make it always draw from the Wild pool of spells.

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Hawkperson
Jun 20, 2003

Jesus Died for Your Songs



Elysium posted:

So my biggest problem with Lunacy Mage right now is that all the spells you can get in Standard are boring as gently caress.

They should "nerf" Deck of Lunacy to make it always draw from the Wild pool of spells.

I donít play the deck so Iím probably biased but this genuinely seems like a good way to preserve the flavor/mana cost/intended effect

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