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Desert Bus
May 9, 2004

Take 1 tablet by mouth daily.

Jolly Jumbuck posted:

Kibler played with that deck yesterday and it's pretty decent. You want to mulligan hard for Backfire and armor vendor and avoid burning your deck until you have Jaraxxus or Neeru in your hand, unless you have to play Soul Rend to stop aggro early. Win conditions are either Neeru at the end and swarm (playing Envoy before Neeru if you have him can help finish and avoid fatigue damage) or Jaraxxus to whittle them down. Watching Kibler's video would be much more informative than my half-assed explanation, but that's a high level overview. Also, I don't feel guilty with Tickatus in this deck since it's a one-shot play to disrupt a deck, not kill it.

### WhoNeedsADeck?
# Class: Warlock
# Format: Standard
# Year of the Gryphon
#
# 2x (1) Altar of Fire
# 2x (1) Armor Vendor
# 1x (1) Tour Guide
# 2x (2) Drain Soul
# 2x (3) Backfire
# 2x (3) Blood Shard Bristleback
# 2x (3) Death's Head Cultist
# 1x (3) Free Admission
# 2x (3) Hysteria
# 1x (3) Tamsin Roame
# 2x (4) Soul Rend
# 1x (5) Envoy Rustwix
# 1x (5) Neeru Fireblade
# 2x (5) Siphon Soul
# 2x (6) Barrens Scavenger
# 1x (6) Tickatus
# 2x (8) Twisting Nether
# 1x (9) Alexstrasza the Life-Binder
# 1x (9) Lord Jaraxxus
#
AAECAa35AwibzQOV3gPO4QP24wPy7QPz7QOwigSFoAQL+OMDkuQDk+QDmOoD2O0D6+0D8O0D8e0DgqAEg6AE56AEAA==
#
# To use this deck, copy it to your clipboard and create a new deck in Hearthstone


If you can build this do it, it is hilarious. I love it.

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Strawberry Panda
Nov 4, 2007

Breakfast Defecting, Slow Dick Touching, Root Beer Barreling SwagVP


Grinding up DH wins on wild ladder to get the 500 win portrait and I'm 14-2 with this random Odd DH deck I found.

Adregan
Oct 22, 2002



Kibler was playing a version of rush warrior that had the 3 mana scorpion discover a spell and I canít seem to find the deck list for it. Anyone have any idea what it might be?

AnacondaHL
Feb 15, 2009


Adregan posted:

Kibler was playing a version of rush warrior that had the 3 mana scorpion discover a spell and I canít seem to find the deck list for it. Anyone have any idea what it might be?

https://www.d0nkey.top/streamer-decks?class=WARRIOR&twitch_id=25871845

AAECAQcIwN4Dzt4D++gDju0Dle0D5/ADqooEsIoEC7u5A+LMA93NA7PeA7XeA7reA8HeA5HkA5boA5jtA9XxAwA=

This is not the recommended build now though, the Axe and the Stonemauls should be Imprisoned Ganargs and Troublemakers.

Acerbatus
Jun 26, 2020


Weren't quillboars supposed to be in BG now or is that only for non-plebs?

Firebert posted:



They can't nerf Paladin now, they have loving Judgement Uther coming

too bad they all look so lame. judgement helmet is the coolest part anyways.

Blooming Brilliant posted:

I'm trying to think now does Quilboar being a tribe retroactivity create any new card interactions? Like am I forgetting a generic-hates-all-tribes card?

Don't think so outside of Amalgams now also being Quilboars.

Edit: Hearthpwn to the rescue, New'zoth (pulling Death's Head Cultist is nice), Waste Warden, and Tent Trasher technically got buffed.

Waste Warden, which I don't blame you for forgetting.

Toshimo
Aug 23, 2012

Must be fuckin' nice!


Acerbatus posted:

Weren't quillboars supposed to be in BG now or is that only for non-plebs?.

May 4th

gandlethorpe
Aug 16, 2008



Is Sun-Bacon Relaxer as nonsensical a name to WoW players as it is to non-WoW players?

Toshimo
Aug 23, 2012

Must be fuckin' nice!


gandlethorpe posted:

Is Sun-Bacon Relaxer as nonsensical a name to WoW players as it is to non-WoW players?

It's not a WoW thing. I assume it's a pun.

Lord_Magmar
Feb 24, 2015

"Welcome to pound town, Slifer slacker!"




gandlethorpe posted:

Is Sun-Bacon Relaxer as nonsensical a name to WoW players as it is to non-WoW players?

Nah, it fits a couple of the Quillboar tribe names in WoW (Razormane, Thornback, Briarback, Death's Head) and then has a class/job (Necromancer, Warrior, Spearchucker). It just so happens to be using a joke tribe and joke job/class.

It's literally a Relaxer from the Sun-Bacon tribe of Quillboar, who presumably are some sort of tropical island based tribe.

Like, it's just a joke about Death's Head Necromancers and Razormane Warriors and so on and so forth with a much funnier idea for a tribe and name.

Like how one of the Orc Tribes is the Flowerpickers (in contrast to the Burning Blade and the Frostwolves and the Windsong and the Shattered Hand tribes).

Lord_Magmar fucked around with this message at 04:05 on May 1, 2021

Gobbeldygook
May 13, 2009
Hates Native American people and tries to justify their genocides.

Put this racist on ignore immediately!


I put the hearthstone needle back in my arm last month and grinded to gold 5, then got dad legend/diamond 5 this month. I played Secret Paladin from gold 5-diamond 5 with a 77% win rate, first 24 games with the most popular list on hsreplay and the rest with VS Secret Paladin list. The deck is just busted and really needs a few more nerfs. Crab rider for sure, not sure what else, but this is not an acceptable state of affairs.

Olpainless
Jun 30, 2003
... Insert something brilliantly witty here.

If crab rider doesn't go to 3 health or mana at this point i will be amazed.

It's just unbelievably strong.

Scrub-Niggurath
Nov 27, 2007



Either down to 3 health or losing the rush both seem fair imho

Olpainless
Jun 30, 2003
... Insert something brilliantly witty here.

Scrub-Niggurath posted:

Either down to 3 health or losing the rush both seem fair imho

Battlecry - gain windfury this turn would be an interesting option too. Good at initial board control then, but less persistent pressure. Windfury always gets distorted with buffs.

fanny packrat
Mar 24, 2018


Scrub-Niggurath posted:

losing the rush

This kills the crab

mcbexx
Jul 4, 2004

British dentistry is
not on trial here!






Also, Deflect-o-bot is a Genji reference.

AnacondaHL
Feb 15, 2009


Crab Rider won't get nerfed. It's not actually the problem. We can see that because of how many decks don't actually play it when they follow similar strategies as the decks that do use it.

Also nerfing Crab Rider basically gives free reign to Priest to take over the format.

The fact that Crab Rider is one of the best cards is a Good Thing. It means that the board matters, and interaction on the board matters. I guarantee you don't actually want what will happen when this isn't the case, because it will be just like it was before: Stealth Rogue, Spell Mage, and Face Hunter, and Priest to stop them, all the decks that don't care about the board, driving the meta.

World War Mammories
Aug 25, 2006





mcbexx posted:

Also, Deflect-o-bot is a Genji reference.



how did I never pick up on this

GTO
Sep 16, 2003



Desert Bus posted:

If you can build this do it, it is hilarious. I love it.

I don't think this a good deck (and hsreplay agrees - 48% at diamond / legend), but it is very satisfying when it goes off.

Desert Bus
May 9, 2004

Take 1 tablet by mouth daily.

GTO posted:

I don't think this a good deck (and hsreplay agrees - 48% at diamond / legend), but it is very satisfying when it goes off.

I am at 44% with it playing Casual only. It is not a good deck, i'm sure i'm making some mistakes, but every win I've gotten has been different and hilarious. It's super fun to be at 1 or 2 life and then do something absurd to win the game. I'm going to play it more so I can play it better but I doubt I'll ever venture into Ranked with it.

Last King
Sep 29, 2007

In corporate R'lyeh, Cthulhu works you.



Fun Shoe

Olpainless posted:

If crab rider doesn't go to 3 health or mana at this point i will be amazed.

It's just unbelievably strong.

why are people still pushing for these kinds of nerfs while the god awful priest decks are around and still gaining traction? do you really want every match to be 30+ minutes long, consisting of nothing but constant roping, generating dozens of cards, and perfect counters?

if you really want crab changed, sure, but how about some real changes first? apotheosis to five mana, undiscoverable. hysteria to six mana, undiscoverable. soul mirror to nine mana, they still attack, but die at the end of the turn.

anything to get rid of these life sucking, soul draining priest games. nerf these cards into the ground.

:edit:

AnacondaHL posted:

Crab Rider won't get nerfed. It's not actually the problem. We can see that because of how many decks don't actually play it when they follow similar strategies as the decks that do use it.

Also nerfing Crab Rider basically gives free reign to Priest to take over the format.

The fact that Crab Rider is one of the best cards is a Good Thing. It means that the board matters, and interaction on the board matters. I guarantee you don't actually want what will happen when this isn't the case, because it will be just like it was before: Stealth Rogue, Spell Mage, and Face Hunter, and Priest to stop them, all the decks that don't care about the board, driving the meta.

this. anything to stop this poo poo from spreading. hell bring back the original watch towers, sword, etc. more gas, less speed bumps.

Last King
Sep 29, 2007

In corporate R'lyeh, Cthulhu works you.



Fun Shoe

gandlethorpe posted:

https://playhearthstone.com/en-us/news/23665634/20-2-patch-notes

Vol'jin looks interesting. I'm curious how it would work with the game's UI.

also patch notes are hilarious - so many minor "fixes" they noted such as correcting a typo... but they still can't fix something as serious as the boomsday project puzzles so peoples' accounts are still going to become unplayable if they accidentally try doing the wrong puzzle and then proceed to get locked out.

Devo
Jul 9, 2001

Caught Cubs Posting


Picked up a golden Neeru from my monthly rewards packs so that's kind of cool

Olpainless
Jun 30, 2003
... Insert something brilliantly witty here.

Last King posted:

why are people still pushing for these kinds of nerfs while the god awful priest decks are around and still gaining traction? do you really want every match to be 30+ minutes long, consisting of nothing but constant roping, generating dozens of cards, and perfect counters?

if you really want crab changed, sure, but how about some real changes first? apotheosis to five mana, undiscoverable. hysteria to six mana, undiscoverable. soul mirror to nine mana, they still attack, but die at the end of the turn.

anything to get rid of these life sucking, soul draining priest games. nerf these cards into the ground.

:edit:


this. anything to stop this poo poo from spreading. hell bring back the original watch towers, sword, etc. more gas, less speed bumps.

Crab rider is looking to be a problem because if you can't answer it immediately you lose. It's played in basically any deck that can play buffs.

That's why i suggest either a 'actually reasonably countered with a turn 2 play' or 'windfury on the turn its played only'.

Yes, priest is a problem in Standard, but that's because there isn't a decent combo right now. That's all. I'd much rather play a Priest 100 times over than deal with dick punch aggro. When aggro is the premiere deck everything suffers.

orangelex44
Oct 11, 2012

Definition of orange:

Any of a group of colors that are between red and yellow in hue. Middle English, from Anglo-French, from Old Occitan, from Arabic, from Persian, from Sanskrit.

Definition of lex:

Law. Latin.

Last King posted:

why are people still pushing for these kinds of nerfs while the god awful priest decks are around and still gaining traction? do you really want every match to be 30+ minutes long, consisting of nothing but constant roping, generating dozens of cards, and perfect counters?

if you really want crab changed, sure, but how about some real changes first? apotheosis to five mana, undiscoverable. hysteria to six mana, undiscoverable. soul mirror to nine mana, they still attack, but die at the end of the turn.

anything to get rid of these life sucking, soul draining priest games. nerf these cards into the ground.

:edit:


this. anything to stop this poo poo from spreading. hell bring back the original watch towers, sword, etc. more gas, less speed bumps.

[shrug]... I prefer control metas. I'm playing the game because it uses up free time, not in spite of that. I think control games tend to have more thoughtful play as well - games that end on turn 5 rarely have more thought than "welp I played second" or perhaps "guess I missed getting one of my eight 1- or 2-drops even after a full mulligan". At least with generated cards I can generally be playing the odds. Most of the generators right now are actually pretty predicable, since the card pool is the lowest it's been in a long time. Priest is a bit of an outlier in that regard since the class can generate into any spell, but even with that there are still cards and play patterns that can be really hard for them to address. The dreaded 4 attack minion is still a thing, they struggle almost as bad against 4 health minions, and they're generally not running weapon removal right now.

Now, do I think that crab rider specifically is an issue? No, not really. It's certainly a very playable card (especially by Neutral standards), but it's not the only card in that bucket right now (Venemous Scorpid is doing solid work, as are Taelan Fordring and Mankrik), I wouldn't point to it as a major part of Paladin's dominance. I think Conviction is a better nerf target, and while I love the design it might be time to finally murder First Day of School as well. The 1-drop pool is just too strong, and I doubt it's going to get all that much weaker this year.

Flayer
Sep 13, 2003

Enjoyment and excitement



Buglord

Control metas where decks don't have to worry about being blown out by aggro or fast midrange are the absolute worst because it ends up coming down to who draws into whatever wombo combo they are running first. It's healthy for every archetype to have strong decks across the spectrum of archetypes.

doingitwrong
Jul 27, 2013




Priest has the third lowest win rate on hsreplay and people are still mad about it?

Boatswain
May 29, 2012


Last King posted:

also patch notes are hilarious - so many minor "fixes" they noted such as correcting a typo... but they still can't fix something as serious as the boomsday project puzzles so peoples' accounts are still going to become unplayable if they accidentally try doing the wrong puzzle and then proceed to get locked out.

They still haven't fixed Tombs of Terror rewards for people, I'm still due three packs I can't access.

orangelex44
Oct 11, 2012

Definition of orange:

Any of a group of colors that are between red and yellow in hue. Middle English, from Anglo-French, from Old Occitan, from Arabic, from Persian, from Sanskrit.

Definition of lex:

Law. Latin.

doingitwrong posted:

Priest has the third lowest win rate on hsreplay and people are still mad about it?

Yes, apparently.

Although to be fair, once you dig a little deeper the picture gets messier. Vicious Syndicate's last report basically says that Priest's win rate and play rate are artificially low because Warlock's play rate is way too high compared to how weak it is. Control/Tickatus Warlock basically has only one good matchup; it's about 40% overall but more than 75% against Priest specifically. Somehow that deck is still around 10% of all played decks outside of high Legend. If Warlock was relegated to the Shaman dumpster tier where it's winrate would normally put it, Priest would look a hell of a lot better... especially because Priest is the only class that can actually maintain a favorable winrate against Paladin right now.

I don't understand why so many people hate on Priest specifically though. It made sense in the Rez Priest days - that deck was toxic - but today's Control Priest is actually pretty fair IMO. It's main sins are Sethekk Veilweaver (although having a "must remove" 2-drop is hardly unusual) and just being a control deck in the first place. There's no true infinite value, there aren't all that many board wipes, there's no mind control, there's no deck destruction, there's no hand disruption, there isn't really even a true "I win" combo... and as far as matchup=specific winrates it's nowhere near Paladin's oppression against anyone.

Beasteh
Feb 12, 2012

I'M QUESTIONING MY EXISTENCE AND THIS IDIOT JUST WANTS TO PEE OFF A WALL



I'm pinging back and forth between sticky aggro pally and pure spell mage to climb on ladder

every game is 'who can highroll the hardest out of the gate' and it is getting pretty stale

Orange Crush Rush
May 7, 2009

You don't need thumbs for revenge

orangelex44 posted:

Yes, apparently.

Although to be fair, once you dig a little deeper the picture gets messier. Vicious Syndicate's last report basically says that Priest's win rate and play rate are artificially low because Warlock's play rate is way too high compared to how weak it is. Control/Tickatus Warlock basically has only one good matchup; it's about 40% overall but more than 75% against Priest specifically. Somehow that deck is still around 10% of all played decks outside of high Legend. If Warlock was relegated to the Shaman dumpster tier where it's winrate would normally put it, Priest would look a hell of a lot better... especially because Priest is the only class that can actually maintain a favorable winrate against Paladin right now.

I don't understand why so many people hate on Priest specifically though. It made sense in the Rez Priest days - that deck was toxic - but today's Control Priest is actually pretty fair IMO. It's main sins are Sethekk Veilweaver (although having a "must remove" 2-drop is hardly unusual) and just being a control deck in the first place. There's no true infinite value, there aren't all that many board wipes, there's no mind control, there's no deck destruction, there's no hand disruption, there isn't really even a true "I win" combo... and as far as matchup=specific winrates it's nowhere near Paladin's oppression against anyone.

Eh, Priest has some pretty unhealthy design right now. They have far, like FAR too much value via discover/spell generation, and kind of like DoL/FDoS, the pool is small enough where you are almost always going to hit something good.
I've only played against a few Priests and already I can't tell you how many times I've ended up seeing Palm Reading into Palm Reading into Palm Reading into etc. Now combine that with access to some primo removal like Hysteria, Soul Mirror, Shadow Word Ruin and games turn into a "just slam poo poo and somehow hope they don't have any answers" kinda quick, which is what playing against Lunacy Mage felt like.
That said, I still don't like the idea of them having an insta loss matchup with Warlock, that just feels like bad game design. Mage did that to Paladin for like 2 years and it was pretty lovely was well.

Orange Crush Rush fucked around with this message at 13:59 on May 2, 2021

Boatswain
May 29, 2012


If Priest is free to chain Palm Reading you're not putting on enough pressure.

And Sethekk isn't even played that much in top lists.

The class might still be bullshit though

AnacondaHL
Feb 15, 2009


doingitwrong posted:

Priest has the third lowest win rate on hsreplay and people are still mad about it?

Yes, because that metric is not a complete picture.

Here are the stats from Masters Tour Ogrimmar, which would be a decent snapshot of what would be expected to eventually happen down the entire ranked ladder, except for this weird situation we're in with Warlock stated above:



and because the deck is so good this is how often it was the banned class:

orangelex44
Oct 11, 2012

Definition of orange:

Any of a group of colors that are between red and yellow in hue. Middle English, from Anglo-French, from Old Occitan, from Arabic, from Persian, from Sanskrit.

Definition of lex:

Law. Latin.

AnacondaHL posted:

Yes, because that metric is not a complete picture.

Here are the stats from Masters Tour Ogrimmar, which would be a decent snapshot of what would be expected to eventually happen down the entire ranked ladder, except for this weird situation we're in with Warlock stated above:



and because the deck is so good this is how often it was the banned class:



I think Paladin is still stronger - are the Master's guys assuming that people will be teching hard against it and going to Priest instead? Or teching against Paladin by going Priest instead? It's also not quite correct to use Master's deck selection as a proxy for what ladder would look like, because the Master's data shows how often someone brings it as one of their available-to-play decks as opposed to what people on ladder want, which is the deck that is most likely to win against an "average" deck. And also be fun. Saying "three-quarters of Master's players brought Priest" in no way implies that "in an optimal meta Priest should be the most played deck". It might just mean that Priest has specific favorable counterpick matchups, or that it's a consistent second-best deck to choose regardless of the expected meta.

The ban list is a little more interesting, and probably a better indicator of what Master's players think the best deck actually is. It's still not a perfect indicator, though, since bans matter relative to what each player brought as playable decks. It's probably more accurate to say that Priest is the most concerning deck to Master's players, but that's still in the context of what decks any given player brought to play with that week.

The best data to judge what the Priest winrate should be, though, would be to use the actual winrates from Master's.

AnacondaHL
Feb 15, 2009


orangelex44 posted:

The best data to judge what the Priest winrate should be, though, would be to use the actual winrates from Master's.

Actually this is a terrible way to judge it, because when priest is left unbanned that almost guaranteed implies the opponent has brought a strategy to specifically target and beat it.

Only in very specific circumstances, such as some weapon deck being dominant leading to lots of Acidic Swamp Oozes in decklists, will these high level tournament decks be different from the eventual ladder meta. All these players are Top 1000 Legend players, and eventually bring these decks to ladder, and we already know thanks to vS that the Top 1000 meta is an indicator of what eventually becomes the Legend meta, and then the entire ladder meta later.

orangelex44 posted:

Saying "three-quarters of Master's players brought Priest" in no way implies that "in an optimal meta Priest should be the most played deck". It might just mean that Priest has specific favorable counterpick matchups, or that it's a consistent second-best deck to choose regardless of the expected meta.

It actually heavily implies that, not because of the absolute 74% number, but from the relative number compared to other decks. The shape of the distribution is important. If you want you could crudely divide each number by 4 to get an estimate of the expected play rate on ladder.

In other words, the conclusion from that graph is "Priest was the most-brought class/deck to the MT, which indicates it should eventually be the most-played deck on ladder". Again, the only reason this hasn't happened already is the weird situation with Warlock.

No Wave
Sep 18, 2005

Yogg-Saron fan #1


The VS top 1000 meta from four days ago had paladin on top, priest at 49% winrate. Tbh it seems like a case of too soon to say.

AnacondaHL
Feb 15, 2009


As for Paladin, it's two things:

1) Because everyone realized ban-Priest was the strongest strategy, that means decklists would be tweaked to fight aggro/midrange battles, tweaking matchups vs Paladin as favorable, leading to many players cutting the deck from their lineup

2) The deck is fairer and more beatable than we thought, and eventually there are likely several general builds of decks better suited for ladder that will be able to handle Paladin while still having game vs Priest. Specifically, the other 3 popular decks: Spell Mage, Tempo Rogue, and Rush Warrior all have wiggle room in their flex cards to decide who they want be better against more.


edit: ^^^ yea that's the point, vS report is based on data from last week, used to project the meta right now; MT data is used to be predicative of the future.

Blooming Brilliant
Jul 12, 2010



Just on Warlock, trying to remember the last time a low WR deck was very popular?

Sure there's a more recent example but my brain goes to Standard Big Priest.

No Wave
Sep 18, 2005

Yogg-Saron fan #1


Blooming Brilliant posted:

Just on Warlock, trying to remember the last time a low WR deck was very popular.

Sure there's a more recent example but my brain goes to Standard Big Priest.
I'll always remember Jade Druid for this. It was crazy.

AnacondaHL
Feb 15, 2009


Blooming Brilliant posted:

Just on Warlock, trying to remember the last time a low WR deck was very popular?

Sure there's a more recent example but my brain goes to Standard Big Priest.

A recent example is the original OTK DH, but it was never as prevalent, the winrate wasn't as low, and the deck is way harder to play. I know I contributed like 150 games to the stats just losing over and over trying to learn how to play it.

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MinionOfCthulhu
Oct 28, 2005

I got this title for free due to my proximity to an idiot who wanted to save $5 on an avatar by having someone else spend $9.95 instead.


I had what was possibly the most perfect play with my token Druid deck cruelly wiped away. First turn, that card that discovers a spell and makes the next one cheaper. A few turns of biding my time, and I drop a five summon glow fly swarm, and then double cast lightning bloom for 4 mana and buff them +1/+1 twice with power of the wild. I tag him with them once and then he got a flamestrike from some 1/1 that discovers a card from any class and welp

I donít normally get salty when I lose because I lose so often, but that sucked. :[

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