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L0cke17
Nov 29, 2013



Im part of the problem. I love the current version of control warlock and play it even though I barely eke out 50% winrate on ladder.

It's just so fun to play.

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Blooming Brilliant
Jul 12, 2010



L0cke17 posted:

Im part of the problem. I love the current version of control warlock and play it even though I barely eke out 50% winrate on ladder.

It's just so fun to play.

You're the floodgate holding back the Priests, so that's commendable

orangelex44
Oct 11, 2012

Definition of orange:

Any of a group of colors that are between red and yellow in hue. Middle English, from Anglo-French, from Old Occitan, from Arabic, from Persian, from Sanskrit.

Definition of lex:

Law. Latin.

AnacondaHL posted:

Actually this is a terrible way to judge it, because when priest is left unbanned that almost guaranteed implies the opponent has brought a strategy to specifically target and beat it.

Only in very specific circumstances, such as some weapon deck being dominant leading to lots of Acidic Swamp Oozes in decklists, will these high level tournament decks be different from the eventual ladder meta. All these players are Top 1000 Legend players, and eventually bring these decks to ladder, and we already know thanks to vS that the Top 1000 meta is an indicator of what eventually becomes the Legend meta, and then the entire ladder meta later.

Fair point, we'd need to see what it looks like for no-ban play.

AnacondaHL posted:

It actually heavily implies that, not because of the absolute 74% number, but from the relative number compared to other decks. The shape of the distribution is important. If you want you could crudely divide each number by 4 to get an estimate of the expected play rate on ladder.

In other words, the conclusion from that graph is "Priest was the most-brought class/deck to the MT, which indicates it should eventually be the most-played deck on ladder". Again, the only reason this hasn't happened already is the weird situation with Warlock.

I see four classes that are all roughly equal within ~8% (or, dividing by four, ~2%). Priest is probably a top deck - it certainly plays that way for me on ladder - but the Master's data is far from saying it's the undisputed best ladder option in the way that Paladin has been since the nerfs.

Acerbatus
Jun 26, 2020


orangelex44 posted:

Yes, apparently.

Although to be fair, once you dig a little deeper the picture gets messier. Vicious Syndicate's last report basically says that Priest's win rate and play rate are artificially low because Warlock's play rate is way too high compared to how weak it is. Control/Tickatus Warlock basically has only one good matchup; it's about 40% overall but more than 75% against Priest specifically. Somehow that deck is still around 10% of all played decks outside of high Legend. If Warlock was relegated to the Shaman dumpster tier where it's winrate would normally put it, Priest would look a hell of a lot better... especially because Priest is the only class that can actually maintain a favorable winrate against Paladin right now.

I don't understand why so many people hate on Priest specifically though. It made sense in the Rez Priest days - that deck was toxic - but today's Control Priest is actually pretty fair IMO. It's main sins are Sethekk Veilweaver (although having a "must remove" 2-drop is hardly unusual) and just being a control deck in the first place. There's no true infinite value, there aren't all that many board wipes, there's no mind control, there's no deck destruction, there's no hand disruption, there isn't really even a true "I win" combo... and as far as matchup=specific winrates it's nowhere near Paladin's oppression against anyone.

It's sorta mystifying that WL does so bad considering it has so many good cards right now.

Orange Crush Rush
May 7, 2009

You don't need thumbs for revenge

I think Warlock just comes down to how many classes want to rip your face off by turn 5. There’s Hunter, Paladin, Rogue, Warrior to an extent, Mage can pull some shenanigans still, etc.

Last King
Sep 29, 2007

In corporate R'lyeh, Cthulhu works you.



Fun Shoe

L0cke17 posted:

Im part of the problem. I love the current version of control warlock and play it even though I barely eke out 50% winrate on ladder.

It's just so fun to play.

you're part of the solution my friend. please continue in your public service. every time you vs. a priest, that's one less the rest of us have to deal with.

L0cke17
Nov 29, 2013



At least with the bonus star system even if I tank to 35-40% winrate I still end up diamond 10 every season with no real effort.

Sankara
Jul 18, 2008




I also enjoy Warlock despite it being bad. Probably because I happen to have all the cards to pull it off, though.

Mayveena
Dec 27, 2006

People keep vandalizing my ID photo; I've lodged a complaint with HR


Sankara posted:

I also enjoy Warlock despite it being bad. Probably because I happen to have all the cards to pull it off, though.

I don't have any of the cards. It might be the deck I buy on Tuesday.

Jolly Jumbuck
Mar 14, 2006

Cats like optical fibers.

L0cke17 posted:

Im part of the problem. I love the current version of control warlock and play it even though I barely eke out 50% winrate on ladder.

It's just so fun to play.

Same, I've been playing Delete Warlock a lot. Most games are on my phone so don't know exact statistics. I'm probably a little short of 50% win rate but it's so fun.

I agree with the sentiment that I don't mind Priest so much now that Resurrect Priest is gone. Sethekk Veilweaver is an annoying generator, but with just Scorpid and two generating spells (which can't generate themselves anymore) it's not that excessive.

GTO
Sep 16, 2003



I played control warlock once I hit legend last season (last few days) and was steadily climbing with it. Didn't see any priests at legend or during the d5-1 climb.

Delete warlock I really want to work but it just isn't good.

gandlethorpe
Aug 16, 2008



I dunno about the rest of you, but I just find it unfun to play against classes where you can't tell what they're capable of doing in a turn because all their poo poo is discounted, and you also can't play around thinking they'll only have two of any given card. When I match against priest, I mostly just treat it like a random deck brawl and hope for the best instead of actually trying to predict their moves.

Last King
Sep 29, 2007

In corporate R'lyeh, Cthulhu works you.



Fun Shoe

gandlethorpe posted:

I dunno about the rest of you, but I just find it unfun to play against classes where you can't tell what they're capable of doing in a turn because all their poo poo is discounted, and you also can't play around thinking they'll only have two of any given card. When I match against priest, I mostly just treat it like a random deck brawl and hope for the best instead of actually trying to predict their moves.

pretty sure this is most of us, if not everyone. which is why priest is a real cancer and shouldn't be encouraged to spread.

just gonna re-quote this again, since it's much more eloquent.

AnacondaHL posted:

The fact that Crab Rider is one of the best cards is a Good Thing. It means that the board matters, and interaction on the board matters. I guarantee you don't actually want what will happen when this isn't the case, because it will be just like it was before: Stealth Rogue, Spell Mage, and Face Hunter, and Priest to stop them, all the decks that don't care about the board, driving the meta.

Last King fucked around with this message at 01:09 on May 3, 2021

Beasteh
Feb 12, 2012

I'M QUESTIONING MY EXISTENCE AND THIS IDIOT JUST WANTS TO PEE OFF A WALL



Gaby was really tiresome to watch in Masters Tour Orgrimmar

Relentless showboating, and he's known for being a prolific stream sniper and all-around terrible sport

goferchan
Feb 8, 2004



No Wave posted:

I'll always remember Jade Druid for this. It was crazy.

There were a lot of frantic cards being played as the rope ticked down and bad decisions being made during the Grim Patron days, too. Fond memory

Orange Crush Rush
May 7, 2009

You don't need thumbs for revenge

gandlethorpe posted:

I dunno about the rest of you, but I just find it unfun to play against classes where you can't tell what they're capable of doing in a turn because all their poo poo is discounted, and you also can't play around thinking they'll only have two of any given card. When I match against priest, I mostly just treat it like a random deck brawl and hope for the best instead of actually trying to predict their moves.

I mean everything said here also 100% applies to Spell Mage, even without DoL.

Edit: the more I think about it, the more I wonder if just too many discovery/generate cards are too good right now, all because of rotation and the new core set. First Day of School, Font, like every spell Priest can generate, etc.
Have you looked at the pool for Spell Damage minions off of Primordial? You have like a 1 in 5 chance of getting the perfect spell damage minion for your turn.

Orange Crush Rush fucked around with this message at 23:31 on May 2, 2021

Gobbeldygook
May 13, 2009
Hates Native American people and tries to justify their genocides.

Put this racist on ignore immediately!


Beasteh posted:

Gaby was really tiresome to watch in Masters Tour Orgrimmar

Relentless showboating, and he's known for being a prolific stream sniper and all-around terrible sport
he's fifteen years old.

Strawberry Panda
Nov 4, 2007

Breakfast Defecting, Slow Dick Touching, Root Beer Barreling SwagVP


Gobbeldygook posted:

he's fifteen years old.

Child acts like child playing a children's card game.

doingitwrong
Jul 27, 2013




Orange Crush Rush posted:

I mean everything said here also 100% applies to Spell Mage, even without DoL.

Edit: the more I think about it, the more I wonder if just too many discovery/generate cards are too good right now, all because of rotation and the new core set. First Day of School, Font, like every spell Priest can generate, etc.
Have you looked at the pool for Spell Damage minions off of Primordial? You have like a 1 in 5 chance of getting the perfect spell damage minion for your turn.

Discover is the game’s solution to sideboarding but they’ve definitely allowed a number of classes to go hard into it. Maybe too hard? They like discover because it means every game does not play out the same but I think they fail to noticed that the randomness has a different kind of “sameyness” to it. I made it to legend last month with a version of priest that has no win conditions in the deck. Every actual threat was generated (Kazakus, Wandmaker, Sethek, Palm Reading, Scorpion, Dragon Studies etc). Normally, the cost of that flexibility is tempo, but Palm Reading and the Studies cards solve that for you.

It’s fun to play but pretty unfun to play against, I imagine. Same as playing against Mage who can now more than make up for a couple of turns if low tempo with massive value and tempo in a deck of discounted discover monsters.

Scrub-Niggurath
Nov 27, 2007



doingitwrong posted:

Every actual threat was generated (Kazakus, Wandmaker, Sethek, Palm Reading, Scorpion, Dragon Studies etc). Normally, the cost of that flexibility is tempo, but Palm Reading and the Studies cards solve that for you.

tbf Kazakus does have an additional and substantial cost for that flexibility

Kalko
Oct 9, 2004



I always thought Discover was a clever way to get people to play with cards that otherwise never would have appeared in a deck (so, like, 50% of all the neutrals in the game) but it seems like most of its problems stem from having too small a card pool.

Regarding Standard, I only played enough to finish my dailies and hit D5 last month, and while I normally prefer playing control decks, Priest and Warlock are the only two classes I don't enjoy playing at all so I stuck to Rush Warrior. Maybe my memory is failing me, but in the distant past of pre-rotation I swear control decks had to actually play minions and interact with the board, but now Priest and especially Warlock can remove a whole deck's worth of enemy minions without having to play much of anything on the board themselves. And it just feels bad to play against, which I know is a kind of catch-all complaint when you don't want to think too much about reasons, but there it is.

For me, playing so much Rush Warrior, my pet hate is Hysteria. Playing around it is almost impossible in the early game if you want to actually apply pressure, which you need to do against those decks. And even if you manage to play around it for a few turns, it's still a Sword of Damocles hanging over your head for the whole game. It's too flexible, being efficient at removing multiple small and/or large threats, and it's not hard to engineer board states to take advantage of it if you need to. Not saying it should be nerfed, exactly, but it's indicative of how the overall Priest/Warlock removal package contains too much value.

Heroic Yoshimitsu
Jan 15, 2008




I'm actually really liking Discard/Empty Deck Warlock right now.

Desert Bus
May 9, 2004

Take 1 tablet by mouth daily.

Heroic Yoshimitsu posted:

I'm actually really liking Discard/Empty Deck Warlock right now.

I played a game against it recently and they used Tickatus to mill 5 cards from their own deck on turn 6. They lost Jaraxxus, Alexstraza, Rustwix, Neeru, and a Twisting Nether. They did not win that game but up until then I had never even considered hitting myself with Tickatus when playing that deck. I haven't really looked into how the deck is supposed to be played so I don't know if that is an actual viable play, but the one time I saw it it didn't work out too well. Seems like a better idea if you've already drawn at least some of the late game cards.

MuLepton
Apr 1, 2011

It's kind of a long story.


Desert Bus posted:

I played a game against it recently and they used Tickatus to mill 5 cards from their own deck on turn 6. They lost Jaraxxus, Alexstraza, Rustwix, Neeru, and a Twisting Nether. They did not win that game but up until then I had never even considered hitting myself with Tickatus when playing that deck. I haven't really looked into how the deck is supposed to be played so I don't know if that is an actual viable play, but the one time I saw it it didn't work out too well. Seems like a better idea if you've already drawn at least some of the late game cards.

According to Kibler, self milling is Tickatus‘ primary purpose in the deck, since it really speeds up your key cards getting online, similar to Altar of Fire. But it obviously depends on what is left in your deck, as well as what you are playing against. Against control, you’ll try to hold off until you have at least one of your win conditions in hand. Against aggro you want the lifesteal and taunt cards that care about your deck having 10 or less cards active ASAP.

Heroic Yoshimitsu
Jan 15, 2008




Yeah you really have to pay attention to what you have/feel you need to have in order to win when you mill yourself... it can get bad! I’ve put personally never used Tickatus to mill myself yet, haven’t really felt the need to.

Beasteh
Feb 12, 2012

I'M QUESTIONING MY EXISTENCE AND THIS IDIOT JUST WANTS TO PEE OFF A WALL



We're at a stage in power creep where a 6 mana 8/8 isn't even that good (looks at hammer of the naaru)

No Wave
Sep 18, 2005

Yogg-Saron fan #1


6 mana 8/8 hasn't been great for a very long time.... there was a 5 mana 8/8 (with a usually irrelevant but sometimes hilarious downside) that was basically a balanced card a few years back. Actually, I realized I just described two cards.

MuLepton
Apr 1, 2011

It's kind of a long story.


Kibler is streaming the deck right now, for those interested.

E: I’d also really recommend watching, because the deck plays really unconventionally, and you don’t always see it in his YouTube videos. For example, Kibler just won a match against a rogue where he deliberately used backfire to overdraw on turn 4 or 5.

MuLepton fucked around with this message at 17:02 on May 3, 2021

RatHat
Dec 31, 2007


Desert Bus posted:

I played a game against it recently and they used Tickatus to mill 5 cards from their own deck on turn 6. They lost Jaraxxus, Alexstraza, Rustwix, Neeru, and a Twisting Nether. They did not win that game but up until then I had never even considered hitting myself with Tickatus when playing that deck. I haven't really looked into how the deck is supposed to be played so I don't know if that is an actual viable play, but the one time I saw it it didn't work out too well. Seems like a better idea if you've already drawn at least some of the late game cards.

Sometimes you draw badly and have to take a big risk like that

Boatswain
May 29, 2012


Is there a viable Scabbs deck? I pulled a golden copy from the Hero's Journey or w/e it is called. Something like Miracle but with a lower curve?

Gobbeldygook
May 13, 2009
Hates Native American people and tries to justify their genocides.

Put this racist on ignore immediately!


Boatswain posted:

Is there a viable Scabbs deck? I pulled a golden copy from the Hero's Journey or w/e it is called. Something like Miracle but with a lower curve?
There is one deck on hsreplay with Scabbs: the barrens rogue deck recipe. It has a 37.8% winrate over 520 games. Scabbs isn't that bad though, you could swap Kazakus for Scabbs in any good miracle list and it would be fine, but a bit worse.

fanny packrat
Mar 24, 2018


Boatswain posted:

Is there a viable Scabbs deck? I pulled a golden copy from the Hero's Journey or w/e it is called. Something like Miracle but with a lower curve?

Here are the decks on d0nkey: https://www.d0nkey.top/streamer-decks?include_cards%5B63517%5D=true

Doesn't look promising, but if you like the playstyle then who cares about winning?

Beasteh
Feb 12, 2012

I'M QUESTIONING MY EXISTENCE AND THIS IDIOT JUST WANTS TO PEE OFF A WALL



No Wave posted:

6 mana 8/8 hasn't been great for a very long time.... there was a 5 mana 8/8 (with a usually irrelevant but sometimes hilarious downside) that was basically a balanced card a few years back. Actually, I realized I just described two cards.

I just realized fel reaver would work really well in self mill lock

Boatswain
May 29, 2012


Gobbeldygook posted:

There is one deck on hsreplay with Scabbs: the barrens rogue deck recipe. It has a 37.8% winrate over 520 games. Scabbs isn't that bad though, you could swap Kazakus for Scabbs in any good miracle list and it would be fine, but a bit worse.

Yeah I tried that, fun but I miss Kazakus every time I draw Scabbs. The Oil Rig Ambushers feel great with Shadowstep and Tenwu though.

fanny packrat posted:

Here are the decks on d0nkey: https://www.d0nkey.top/streamer-decks?include_cards%5B63517%5D=true

Doesn't look promising, but if you like the playstyle then who cares about winning?

Better do something like this: https://www.d0nkey.top/streamer-decks?class=ROGUE&legend=200&include_cards%5B63517%5D=true

But yeah.

emocrat
Feb 28, 2007
Sidewalk Technology

I too have been playing Kiblers deck destruction Warlock deck and really enjoying it. I think the deck is actually decent but very difficult to pilot (I am not a very good pilot). I have for sure lost a lot of games where I think I took the wrong line. But its much more involved and fun to play than most other decks I have seen. I usually play off meta stuff anyway though.

I started messing with it at Diamond 5 right before the the month end, and I am almost back to Diamond 10 with it now. Good times.

DeadButDelicious
Oct 11, 2012

Leave me to do my dark bidding on the internet!

Are there any legendaries that are currently out of vogue/generally "bad" that are safe to dust? Here's my list of them so far:

Guff Runetotem
Deck of Lunacy
Xyrella
Neeru Fireblade
Overlord Saurfang
Moonfang
N'zoth, God of the Deep

I'm kinda hard up on dust right now and would wanna go for another deck for some variety. Some token druids use Guff but he hasn't been a gamewinner for me so I wouldn't mind losing him.

Alternatively here's my collection: https://hsreplay.net/collection/2/17464881/

Sorry if it's a bit presumptuous for someone to go through this, just don't want to fall into the trap of dusting something that was actually really good and was a silly move to do so.

AnacondaHL
Feb 15, 2009


DeadButDelicious posted:

Are there any legendaries that are currently out of vogue/generally "bad" that are safe to dust? Here's my list of them so far:

Guff Runetotem
Deck of Lunacy
Xyrella
Neeru Fireblade
Overlord Saurfang
Moonfang
N'zoth, God of the Deep

I'm kinda hard up on dust right now and would wanna go for another deck for some variety. Some token druids use Guff but he hasn't been a gamewinner for me so I wouldn't mind losing him.

Alternatively here's my collection: https://hsreplay.net/collection/2/17464881/

Sorry if it's a bit presumptuous for someone to go through this, just don't want to fall into the trap of dusting something that was actually really good and was a silly move to do so.

Aside from Deck of Lunacy, which you're unfortunately a few days late on the full dust refund but feel free to dust it now, all of these legendaries have high Regret Risk. You really should wait until at least the mini-set before dusting Standard-playable cards.


edit: Actual advice: you're many Rares short of a full set, meaning I recommend first focusing on spending gold/$ on packs until at least you have all the rares, then you can think about dust and crafting epics/legendaries afterwards.

AnacondaHL fucked around with this message at 17:06 on May 4, 2021

mcbexx
Jul 4, 2004

British dentistry is
not on trial here!




I'm sure I'm missing something, but how do I claim the portraits for the "Tavern Regular" achievement?



When I click on "See Rewards" for either of the first two tiers, it still tells me I need to complete the achievement.

Or is this coming in a later patch?

AnacondaHL
Feb 15, 2009


mcbexx posted:

I'm sure I'm missing something, but how do I claim the portraits for the "Tavern Regular" achievement?



When I click on "See Rewards" for either of the first two tiers, it still tells me I need to complete the achievement.

Or is this coming in a later patch?

This is bugged for everyone rn

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Mayveena
Dec 27, 2006

People keep vandalizing my ID photo; I've lodged a complaint with HR


So if you're buying a deck, which one? I'm planning on getting Risk Warrior. I know Priest has a higher win rate, but it's too slow for me.

E: What's interesting is that the deck recipes don't correspond to the deck's being sold, at least for Pally. Their Pally deck that they are selling for $20 is not in the deck recipes. That deck has Cannonmaster in it, which I don't have because the HS replay deck I'm using doesn't use it.

Hopefully a deck list of all the sold decks will show up somewhere soonish .

Mayveena fucked around with this message at 17:42 on May 4, 2021

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