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Cease to Hope
Dec 12, 2011
the forum where people post about insurance in case they have to kill someone is mad at this guy again lol

Gimli's grandfather is Groin

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Cease to Hope
Dec 12, 2011
the forum where people post about insurance in case they have to kill someone is mad at this guy again lol

Edgar Allen Ho posted:

Grůin, please

It's pronounced "Grow-in"

Tolkien knew how people were going to read it.

Cease to Hope
Dec 12, 2011
the forum where people post about insurance in case they have to kill someone is mad at this guy again lol

Barudak posted:

I know its an entirely weird me problem thing but I like not having to worry about concrete locations and distances and mountain ranges and what not because it makes my brain transition from "this is a kickass mythic story" to "the foliage described in this region are nonsense based on the geography presented and further more"

Tolkien is the ur foliage nerd though, both literally and figuratively. He's patient zero for the comic book guy brain disease (and the fact that I'm calling it that means I'm a terminal case too lol)

Cease to Hope
Dec 12, 2011
the forum where people post about insurance in case they have to kill someone is mad at this guy again lol

Barudak posted:

Been re-reading the hobbit and for an immortal demi-god Gandalf is a real sassy pants

as far as i can tell all of the maiar are just huge dickholes

Cease to Hope
Dec 12, 2011
the forum where people post about insurance in case they have to kill someone is mad at this guy again lol

Edgar Allen Ho posted:

iirc most of the preliminary filming was 98-99 which is odd to think about. In terms of the zeitgeist they definitely feel like 9/11 era movies.

it's interesting how much of that stuff was already in the zeitgeist

Cease to Hope
Dec 12, 2011
the forum where people post about insurance in case they have to kill someone is mad at this guy again lol

Because it rules OP

Cease to Hope
Dec 12, 2011
the forum where people post about insurance in case they have to kill someone is mad at this guy again lol

Barudak posted:

I dunno why it drives me wild when illustrated versions go wild with their interpretation of what well described things in the book are but this in particular is sticking with me because the end of the gollum encounter requires gollum to be small enough for Bilbo to jump over him.

There are two answers to this: the artistic and the pedantic.

The artistic answer is that the way Gollum and Bilbo are separated puts them in separate spaces from each other, rather than being straightforward illustration. This ambiguity lends itself to illustrating Gollum in an impressionistic way, the way Gollum feels to Bilbo (or to himself!) while illustrating Bilbo the way he feels to the two characters. The illustration captures their dynamic perfectly: Bilbo, tiny and wary and trapped and thoroughly out of his element but relying on craft, Gollum, terrifying and intimidating but sad and lost and longing, all piercing gaze and howling impotent demand.

The pedantic answer is that this is an illustration for the first edition of the Hobbit, where there's no reference to Gollum's size at all. You're talking about something added in the second edition's edits.

Cease to Hope
Dec 12, 2011
the forum where people post about insurance in case they have to kill someone is mad at this guy again lol

indigi posted:

donít they both fit into a small boat? plus Bilbo does hop over him. his size is pretty well implied if not explicitly defined

I don't remember if the boat was part of the changes but Bilbo hopping over him is something added in the second edition.

Cease to Hope
Dec 12, 2011
the forum where people post about insurance in case they have to kill someone is mad at this guy again lol

indigi posted:

overall Tolkienís cosmology is bunk because hobbits exist without explanation

all of the cosmology is written by the peoples of middle earth and hobbits don't care about that poo poo so they didn't write anything

Cease to Hope
Dec 12, 2011
the forum where people post about insurance in case they have to kill someone is mad at this guy again lol

Details details

Cease to Hope
Dec 12, 2011
the forum where people post about insurance in case they have to kill someone is mad at this guy again lol

indigi posted:

idk how itís more flashy than sending the prince of Mirkwood, future Steward of Gondor, the heir of Isildur, and a freaking Maiar

two failsons (three of you count gimli) whose entire lives mostly involve running errands of no consequence, a hanger-on in elrond's court, and admittedly a maiar yeah

about half of the council of elrond are people who just happened to be hanging around and didn't have any more pressing business

Cease to Hope fucked around with this message at 16:16 on Jun 14, 2021

Cease to Hope
Dec 12, 2011
the forum where people post about insurance in case they have to kill someone is mad at this guy again lol

indigi posted:

or send Elladan and Elrohir if youíre worried, nobody knows what those dorks get up to

elrond wants to do this but gandalf convinces him that merry and pippin's closeness with frodo make them more valuable

Cease to Hope
Dec 12, 2011
the forum where people post about insurance in case they have to kill someone is mad at this guy again lol

Barudak posted:

Gimli cannot be called a failson because that implies his dad ever ascended beyond the illustrious rank of "coattail rider"

a failson in a long line of failsons

Cease to Hope
Dec 12, 2011
the forum where people post about insurance in case they have to kill someone is mad at this guy again lol

indigi posted:

well to be fair thereís not much else to get up to in the Shire. the most renowned Hobbit ever is mainly remembered for riding a pony

and decapitating the leader of a band of invading goblins with a club

Cease to Hope
Dec 12, 2011
the forum where people post about insurance in case they have to kill someone is mad at this guy again lol

samwise is a noble and loyal servant, while frodo is idle rich

Cease to Hope
Dec 12, 2011
the forum where people post about insurance in case they have to kill someone is mad at this guy again lol

ptkfvk posted:

i love this thread

question: i vaguely remember that there were 2 different types of tree people. the Ents and the smaller younger trees from one of the weird woods. am i making something up?

ents and huorns, yeah

Cease to Hope
Dec 12, 2011
the forum where people post about insurance in case they have to kill someone is mad at this guy again lol

Sauron is not above pretending to be a loyal servant to worm his way closer to someone he wants to undermine.

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Cease to Hope
Dec 12, 2011
the forum where people post about insurance in case they have to kill someone is mad at this guy again lol

SlothfulCobra posted:

Seems like if he could just go wherever it'd be more thematic for him to be physically leading his armies and more directly distracted when the heroes attack the black gate.

This is one of those times where themes overcame in-universe thinking: specifically, Sauron's obvious allegorical role, the elevation of humility and kindness over all other virtues, and the need to put the end of the story at the end of the book.

As for allegory, Sauron doesn't show up at the battle at the Black Gate because he's Satan. Satan doesn't show up in red pajamas to menace people, but rather works through the corrupt hearts of men. It's why Sauron exists chiefly as an influence rather than an actor, why the entire story is about confronting his servants, and why his power can never be used for good. Sauron is the medievalist's idea of Satan, so Aragorn corrupts the servants of Satan, not Satan himself.

If Sauron is at the Black Gate, then he's a foe that must be overcome with courage or wit. Aragorn is a hero but he's not the sort of hero Tolkien wants to exalt. The Ring is the will to power, so transforming Aragorn's confrontation from a battle to defeat Sauron to an inevitably doomed holding action, it shows that valor and courage have a place but are not the greatest virtues. The greatest virtues, the ones that are actually triumphant, are Frodo's and Sam's. Frodo and Sam are meek and self-critical and humble and kind and loyal to each other, and those virtues ultimately defeat Sauron.

For them to defeat Sauron, then it deprives them of their weight to have the ultimate confrontation go to Aragorn, especially if the story places their victory after Aragorn's. It would certainly be possible to restructure the story for the climax to come at Black Gate, but either way it makes things into Aragorn's victory rather than Frodo's and Sam's. This isn't to say that the climax is perfect, but the ways it's imperfect shows how important it was that the emphasis land on the victory of Frodo and Sam rather than Aragorn.

Anyway as for the main point about the Smaug fanfiction, what exactly Sauron is in the Third Age is pretty vague, and the Second Age is several separate overlapping stories written at different times by one and a half authors. One of those Second Age stories is Sauron submitting to the Numenoreans, only to form what is basically a Satanist cult under their nose, so that Eru Iluvatar sinks Numenor beneath the waves. It's one of a couple times that Sauron loses his body and becomes a spirit, well before Elendil's and Gil-Galad's pyrrhic victory. Sauron takes some sort of form after that, the Necromancer, but that's a retcon Tolkien never got around to filling in with any greater detail. Could Sauron-as-the-Necromancer worm his way into the service of Smaug-with-the-Ring? No reason you couldn't write that story. Sauron had done it before.

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