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skasion
Feb 13, 2012

Why don't you perform zazen, facing a wall?


indigi posted:

I mean if a shield can stop a massive vehicle moving at c then why couldn’t it stop the Death Star laser

like shields couldn’t even stop the Millennium Falcon from landing on Starkiller base in TFA idk how it would stop a determined ramming

This is actually why they couldnt just fly the eagles to Mordor. energy shields

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skasion
Feb 13, 2012

Why don't you perform zazen, facing a wall?


Barudak posted:

Holy poo poo, Dwarves, a deer can cross a river in a single jump that you have difficulty seeing across. Invent some glasses

It’s dark and the river is magic

skasion
Feb 13, 2012

Why don't you perform zazen, facing a wall?


quote:

Dwarves are not heroes, but calculating folk with a great idea of the value of money. Some are tricky and treacherous and pretty bad lots; some are not, but are decent enough people like Thorin and Company, if you don’t expect too much.

skasion
Feb 13, 2012

Why don't you perform zazen, facing a wall?


Wait till you see Aragorn’s family tree

skasion
Feb 13, 2012

Why don't you perform zazen, facing a wall?


Schadenboner posted:

I’m among the last to stand up for Tolkien’s politics (his Franco is a v.bad look) but “Dorfs is untrustworthy Jews” is an unfair take. He was (for his time and context) legitimately p.deece on the Jewish issue, he told the to gently caress off with the racial purity statement authors had to put in the front of their books to sell over there and bemoaned his lack of blood to nazis who were all over what a strong Nordic he was.

Tolkien didn’t have a boner for Franco. He was a Catholic, and a major point of legitimacy of the Francoist regime was that it defended Spain’s Catholic tradition against a red tide of priest-slaughtering commies. Such a point, even if ungrounded in reality, would hit Tolkien fairly close to home because his guardian for most of his childhood, Francis Morgan, was a Catholic priest from Spain. It also hit him fairly close to home because as an English Catholic, he was very conscious of being a vulnerable religious minority himself.

skasion
Feb 13, 2012

Why don't you perform zazen, facing a wall?


Jazerus posted:

sometimes you've really gotta wonder about the elves

thousands of years of life each and they've never bothered to go check out anything eastwards??

They came from there at the command of God. Probably bad vibes to go back

skasion
Feb 13, 2012

Why don't you perform zazen, facing a wall?


Rivendell and Lorien, and perhaps the Havens, exist as such only because of the three rings, which, the elves rightly assume, are contingent on the One. They still decided to destroy the One because they’re not idiot assholes who are content to sit in circumscribed paradises ignoring the world until an evil immortal wizard rocks up and conquers them just like everyone else. It’s in the mirror of Galadriel bit

quote:

’Do you not see now wherefore your coming is to us as the footstep of Doom? For if you fail, then we are laid bare to the Enemy. Yet if you succeed, then our power is diminished, and Lothlórien will fade, and the tides of Time will sweep it away. We must depart into the West, or dwindle to a rustic folk of dell and cave, slowly to forget and to be forgotten.’

Frodo bent his head. ‘And what do you wish?’ he said at last.

‘That what should be shall be,’ she answered. ‘The love of the Elves for their land and their works is deeper than the deeps of the Sea, and their regret is undying and cannot ever wholly be assuaged. Yet they will cast all away rather than submit to Sauron: for they know him now. For the fate of Lothlórien you are not answerable, but only for the doing of your own task. Yet I could wish, were it of any avail, that the One Ring had never been wrought, or had remained for ever lost.’

skasion
Feb 13, 2012

Why don't you perform zazen, facing a wall?


Arcsquad12 posted:

That doesn't read as hesitancy that is the elves resigned to their doom and lamenting that it had to happen.

Im not saying anything about hesitancy. My point is just the elven lords definitely knew they were destroying their own rings’ power and by extension, their realms and their last chance to live in Middle-earth by the quest to destroy the ring, because they felt it was the right thing anyway.

skasion
Feb 13, 2012

Why don't you perform zazen, facing a wall?


It’s not trivial problem to convince someone to destroy the ring. In fact nobody is ever able to do it, whatever their intentions. That’s why the ring ended up having to be destroyed semi-intentionally by Frodo and Gollum disgracing themselves. Gandalf was barely able to get Bilbo to even leave it behind, he was worried he would have to force Bilbo to do it and probably destroy him in the process.

If Elrond had confronted Isildur too directly and told him that it was non negotiable to destroy the ring, especially right there in Mordor where the ring is at the height of its power, it’s entirely possible he could have ended up pushing Isildur to become ring-lord himself. At that point they’d have had to kill him and dispossess him of the ring or face total subjugation: and if someone like Elrond who knows how the rings work ends that struggle by by killing his own ally and friend and seizing the ring, then who would stop him from becoming ring-lord? Basically if the One ever got directly into the hands of the Noldor, it would be an utter disaster for them (and everyone else). Compared to something like that, leaving Isildur in possession of a cursed magical machine that he didn’t really understand the power of must have seemed like a pretty good idea.

A lot of what the elves do in LOTR itself makes a lot more sense once you look at the other stuff and realize that the elves who made it to LOTR are the guys who survived watching their entire race exterminate itself over the millennia by trying to accomplish things that they fundamentally couldn’t do.


indigi posted:

my thing is, they’re all dumbasses. who or what else could it have possibly been? it’s either the Witch King, who we should probably deal with, or it’s Sauron, meaning he’s back, also something we should deal with. there’s nothing in all LotR and extended sources that hints any old dickhead could become magically powerful unless they’re an Ainu or empowered by one, so they knew it had to be Sauron (or one of his empowered lieutenants)

I don’t think this is fair. Many Tolkien things are magic without direct involvement of the gods. Probably the most obvious example is that Isildur, before the war with Sauron, ring, etc., was already able to curse an entire race of people so hard that they lingered as cursed ghosts for thousands of years. He was able to do this because the Numenorean kings were magic, having originally been given their land by the will of the gods, certainly. But it’s not like Manwe appeared directly to Isildur and told him how to do that. Why couldn’t there be a bloodline of evil sorcerers somewhere similarly instituted by Sauron or Morgoth? Remember, the whole rest of the world is assumed by the westerners to have been under the dominance of evil forces since almost the beginning of creation.

Also you can learn dark magic from talking to pissed off elven ghosts. There’s a bit somewhere in Morgoth’s Ring about it.

skasion
Feb 13, 2012

Why don't you perform zazen, facing a wall?


Jazerus posted:

could at least send glorfindel with them imo

apparently in the first draft of fellowship he actually was part of the quest??? wtf tolkien

Harder to write good jokes about Glorfindel than about stupidly rich short kids 1 & 2

skasion
Feb 13, 2012

Why don't you perform zazen, facing a wall?


Gandalf the Grey hides his spiritual oomph (think of when he tells Bilbo that he’s gonna see him uncloaked if he doesn’t shut up). With Glorfindel it’s out and proud.

skasion
Feb 13, 2012

Why don't you perform zazen, facing a wall?


Barudak posted:

In tolkein naming I assume that would be

Failson, son of Faildad, son of Failpatriarch

Failnor son of Failwe

skasion
Feb 13, 2012

Why don't you perform zazen, facing a wall?


Narmacil is one of the kings of Gondor from the appendix and i think Minalcar probably is as well

skasion
Feb 13, 2012

Why don't you perform zazen, facing a wall?


indigi posted:

how is Gandalf not a failson he didn’t do anything of note for the first 20k+ years of Arda’s existence and almost got punked by Sauron on 1% battery

Incarnate gods are lazy bastards. They kind of share the elvish trait of just letting poo poo happen for decades or centuries before doing anything about it, because what’s the point in hurrying when you live forever? Sauron has run a ruthless industrial empire with absolute power and absolutely no scruples for millennia and can’t manage to conquer a handful of lousy nations or come up with any better strategic solution than “attack them everywhere with lots of dudes”. Dude should have applied his godly powers to come up with howitzers

skasion
Feb 13, 2012

Why don't you perform zazen, facing a wall?


Providence isn’t luck. Bilbo was meant to find the ring, etc

skasion
Feb 13, 2012

Why don't you perform zazen, facing a wall?


The host of Rohan doesn’t move out intending to go to Helm’s Deep. They send the people to Dunharrow which is defensible and out of the way (in the movies they bring them along into a war zone because they’re psychos) and move towards Isengard to give battle. Then as they approach the Isen they meet a guy who tells them that Erkenbrand’s army was nearby, but has been beaten and is retreating on Helm’s Deep. So they go there on Gandalf’s advice to join up with them, only when they get there it turns out Saruman’s army is between them and Erkenbrand. Oops

Saruman straight up misjudges the military situation and loses his whole army, which kind of makes sense since he is an armchair general with 0 experience

Saruman’s plans in the Shire are economic not military. He doesn’t send an army there, he just gives a bunch (couple hundred) of people jobs.

skasion
Feb 13, 2012

Why don't you perform zazen, facing a wall?


ptkfvk posted:

i love this thread

question: i vaguely remember that there were 2 different types of tree people. the Ents and the smaller younger trees from one of the weird woods. am i making something up?

Ents are giants who look like trees
Huorns are the trees who are under ents’ care, who are kind of magic and evil-tempered and move around and kill people

However, way before they get to ents, when they’re leaving Buckland, they enter the forest there and it’s much lower key, but also kind of magic and evil-tempered and the trees move around and some of them were at least willing to entomb people alive.

Conclusion: trees default state is “we hate you”

There’s also entwives who were probably giantesses or something who knows

skasion
Feb 13, 2012

Why don't you perform zazen, facing a wall?


Jazerus posted:

i never really understood saruman's plan for the shire. totally discounting the fellowship hobbits returning, because of course he wouldn't feel threatened by that, is he just aiming to be a tobacco baron and really hoping that aragorn doesn't go poking around in arnor once he becomes king?

Originally he wasn’t planning on anybody becoming king, so yeah, just wanted his little industrial farming op on the side.

After he loses everything and goes to the shire personally then he is just being a bastard and taking pleasure in loving the hobbits over, possibly even with the intention of getting them to kill him and invite divine opprobrium. He seems kind of disappointed when Frodo refuses to let him get lynched.

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skasion
Feb 13, 2012

Why don't you perform zazen, facing a wall?


keep punching joe posted:

If Bilbo has hosed up and gotten roasted by Smaug, would that have destroyed the one ring and with that Sauron?

No. Gandalf says he thinks that dragon fire could maybe have destroyed the other rings of power, but not the One.

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