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Impermanent posted:you're making a couple of interesting assumptions about the devs' views of a wide number of things here, considering their own analogue to the russian revolution was crushed by international capital swooping in to destroy it. If you got through Disco Elysium and somehow came away with the impression that communism is a perfect spotless angel that doesn't have its own failures to own up to and try to learn from, you weren't reading very hard. It needs to learn from them because the alternative is capital driving the world to extinction. Tick tock. nabo posted:Lenin and Stalin are not interchangeable They kinda are.
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Apr 8, 2021 20:05
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Madre di dios *makes sign of the cross* A LIBERAL!!!
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Apr 8, 2021 20:05
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Evart is definitely a Huey Long type, someone it's always fun to think about how they'd be vilified if they were around and doing there thing today lol the absolute image of a "results-oriented" person leading a coalition based essentially on Maoist lines, the slogan also gives it away or makes it a huge coincidence. There's no way the union could ship more drugs than the capitalists at least, and it's not like he's sending death squads to march around the Moralintern's territory terrorizing people
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Apr 8, 2021 20:08
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Cpt_Obvious posted:That is a rather unfair characterization. It's not outside the capitalist structure. It's very much part and parcel of the capitalist structure - if nothing else, because it gives Capital a "moral reason" to kill people and take control of the docks and the Union. And, in our world, also sell guns for self-defence against them crazy junkies. And send cops to dick poor people over and keep them poor across multiple generations. And ensure the poor are in a daze rather than in a pitchfork mob. And it's not like overdoses kill *real* people anyway... Kobal2 fucked around with this message at 20:34 on Apr 8, 2021 |
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Apr 8, 2021 20:26
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I forget, does that also tie into Evrart's plan to instigate strikes in other places too buy provoking a confrontation with Wild Pines?
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Apr 8, 2021 20:28
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Someone posted a long analysis of Evarte and Joyce which I can't find right now, but the basic interpretation was that the contrast between the two faction leaders proves how the individual drives and actions of even the most powerful leaders is not nearly as important as the power structure they are leading. Joyce is a kind, patient, generous, and extremely intelligent billionaire. It is later revealed that she is the majority stockholder of Wild Pines. She does not desire any bloodshed. In fact, she makes the promise that the union can keep the harbor without further conflict. However, capitalism is a cancerous system. It must grow and grow at all costs, human or otherwise. Joyce cannot stop the coming war, just like she couldn't stop the mercenaries being sent in the first place. Her desires, drive, and mercy are largely irrelevant to the need for the capitalist system to consume. Meanwhile, Evrarte is despicable. He's a drug dealing, conniving, manipulative sonofa bitch. But in order to accumulate power, he must strengthen the union. And in doing so, he acts to further the wellbeing of it's members. Most importantly, this conflict between wild pines and the union ia inevitable. The conditions in Revachol have forced the people to risk their lives in conflict with a far wealthier and well equipped force. They don't revolt because they want to, they revolt because they have to. Captain Oblivious posted:They kinda are. Lol.
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Apr 8, 2021 20:31
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Cpt_Obvious posted:just like she couldn't stop the mercenaries being sent in the first place. Speaking of : one thing has been puzzling/annoying me in Final Cut playthrough. When discussing the murder with Mañana, some of the strikers, or discussing the case with Kim my Harry keeps talking about mercenaries even though I haven't yet gotten anywhere near unravelling that particular mystery - the most I ever did was notice the boots were pretty high falutin' for a regular security guard, with a big question mark hanging from there. Nobody has owned up to or alluded to anything like the spoiled thing, hell I haven't even said word one to the Hardie Boys yet. Was it always like that and I don't remember, or is it one of those newly hosed things ? EDIT (thinking on it, I suppose one other possibility is that my vibrant, definitely-could-be Kras Mazov Communism Builder Harry is speaking figuratively, having no idea how close to the mark he really is ?) Kobal2 fucked around with this message at 21:03 on Apr 8, 2021 |
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Apr 8, 2021 20:41
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Captain Oblivious posted:If you got through Disco Elysium and somehow came away with the impression that communism is a perfect spotless angel that doesn't have its own failures to own up to and try to learn from, you weren't reading very hard. Wild how DE's message is both that communism isn't perfect or spotless and also that communism failed because *really mean baddies* who *weren't Proper Communists* ended up in charge of it somehow everywhere it ever happened.
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Apr 8, 2021 21:12
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Captain Oblivious posted:They kinda are. 
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Apr 8, 2021 21:20
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Kobal2 posted:Speaking of : one thing has been puzzling/annoying me in Final Cut playthrough. When discussing the murder with Mañana, some of the strikers, or discussing the case with Kim my Harry keeps talking about mercenaries even though I haven't yet gotten anywhere near unravelling that particular mystery - the most I ever did was notice the boots were pretty high falutin' for a regular security guard, with a big question mark hanging from there. IIRC multiple people can straight up tell you on day 1 so maybe you just glossed over it?
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Apr 8, 2021 21:21
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Lightningproof posted:Wild how DE's message is both that communism isn't perfect or spotless and also that communism failed because *really mean baddies* who *weren't Proper Communists* ended up in charge of it somehow everywhere it ever happened. IIRC the revolution failed because of outside military intervention from people who weren’t just “not proper communists” but explicit anti-communists
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Apr 8, 2021 21:21
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Cpt_Obvious posted:
I like this analysis, in that it sets the individual sort of orthogonal to the ideology - Joyce is a charming, very likeable and caring capitalist ; but capitalism is profoundly repulsive poo poo at its core (and she will even reluctantly acknowledge that). Meanwhile Evrart is a scummy, manipulative, immoral sack of poo poo yet he's still ultimately working for the greater good and the betterment of the community, as he sees it. Now judge, brother coppo. Both look down on the Moralintern and stupid racists of course. Because they're losers in either worldview.
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Apr 8, 2021 21:21
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Lightningproof posted:Wild how DE's message is both that communism isn't perfect or spotless and also that communism failed because *really mean baddies* who *weren't Proper Communists* ended up in charge of it somehow everywhere it ever happened. The communist leaders in.....the moralintern? Who do you think crushed the revolution?
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Apr 8, 2021 21:21
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sean10mm posted:IIRC multiple people can straight up tell you on day 1 so maybe you just glossed over it? I will neither confirm nor deny I'm posting from a skull of cocaine.
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Apr 8, 2021 21:22
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Kobal2 posted:I will neither confirm nor deny I'm posting from a skull of cocaine. Who isn't?
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Apr 8, 2021 21:23
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Cpt_Obvious posted:Meanwhile, Evrarte is despicable. He's a drug dealing, conniving, manipulative sonofa bitch. But in order to accumulate power, he must strengthen the union. And in doing so, he acts to further the wellbeing of it's members. Most of the time anyway. For now. But he's also actively building an organization where that's not always going to be true, and things have already not worked out well at all for the other members that wanted to build a different sort of union (what with him having everyone who contested his leadership murdered and all). Once Wild Pines is gone, its no longer the Union vs the Bosses, where Edgar wins by fighting for the workers. Once Wild Pines is gone, he IS the boss, not the guy trying to fight against the boss. I expect things are going to change rather quickly.
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Apr 8, 2021 21:27
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Epic High Five posted:The communist leaders in.....the moralintern? Who do you think crushed the revolution? I took it as sarcastic 
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Apr 8, 2021 21:30
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Patch has just gone up on PS4
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Apr 8, 2021 21:31
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Shitposting. User loses posting privileges for 6 hours.
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Apr 8, 2021 21:33
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Cpt_Obvious posted:I took it as sarcastic It wouldn't surprise me if some of the jargon in the game confused a few people. Like Moralintern sounds like Comintern, but they were an international coalition of radical centrists. Like a turbo nightmare version of what CSPAM thinks Hillary Clinton is like or something. The Ultraliberals are free market fundamentalists, not leftists of any kind. Fascists and communists were (hopefully) self-explanatory.
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Apr 8, 2021 21:38
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Evart is very fat haha
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Apr 8, 2021 21:41
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evrart is correct, sorry folksCaptain Oblivious posted:They kinda are. 
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Apr 8, 2021 21:42
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Cpt_Obvious posted:I took it as sarcastic I might've been whooshed there but it's a pretty common talking point I think the most you could say is that the game seems to think that communism is the best among flawed options, but even that ignores that the ultralibs were allied with the commies in the revolution. It really portrays the moralists as huge monsters but like, look around, that is the world they built. They rolled in, killed everybody they saw until people stopped fighting, blew up a few blocks, got the mineral rights, and hosed off. Joyce and Sunday Friend will both be happy to regretfully inform you of the necessity of all of this
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Apr 8, 2021 21:43
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Captain Oblivious posted:That’s kind of the point of Evrart as a character. He is the Lenin or Mao of Disco Elysium. He is fighting international capital but he is also so compromised that he will personally guarantee the revolution fails in the end. He is a dead end. I think this is an unnecessary stretch. Evrart is a stereotypical corrupt union boss a la Jimmy Hoffa.
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Apr 8, 2021 21:47
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GlyphGryph posted:Most of the time anyway. For now. But he's also actively building an organization where that's not always going to be true, and things have already not worked out well at all for the other members that wanted to build a different sort of union (what with him having everyone who contested his leadership murdered and all). Once Wild Pines is gone, its no longer the Union vs the Bosses, where Edgar wins by fighting for the workers. Once Wild Pines is gone, he IS the boss, not the guy trying to fight against the boss. I expect things are going to change rather quickly. Evrarte may have seized the leadership through skullduggery, but the election isn't the source of his power. People aren't willing to risk their lives for Evrarte because he got enough votes. The reason that the Claires evoke such dogmatic loyalty is because they take care of the union. Say what you want about the drugs, it's putting food on the table for all of Revachol. The moment that the union can't feed people is the moment that Evrarte loses everything. Contrast that with Wild Pines which enforces its will by hired killers. Wild Pines doesn't give a poo poo if you're starving or homeless, you will work. And if you don't work, they'll find someone else. Now, if you want to talk about what happens after a successful revolution, I don't think that Evrarte could stay in power without treating Revachol better than Wild Pines had. Evrarte just wouldn't have the unilateral coercive power to hold together a union that hated him.
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Apr 8, 2021 21:48
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Captain Oblivious posted:
Excellent post/name combo
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Apr 8, 2021 21:51
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sean10mm posted:The Ultraliberals are free market fundamentalists, not leftists of any kind. This isn't really true, they wouldn't have sided with the commies against the monarchy if that was the case, surely. But they did. Ultraliberals are basically pure opportunistic ambition.
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Apr 8, 2021 21:54
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Ultraliberals use their shallow cartoonish joke ideology solely to give their unabashed greed a little bit of cover in polite society. But enough about real life, let's talk disco elysium
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Apr 8, 2021 22:04
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I think the big difference between right wing libertarians as we know them in the US and ultraliberals in DE is that in the latter, they seem to be coming from a place where they acknowledge the system is broken and screwing them. This opposed to thinking the system is fair and working as intended, and anybody who is screwed probably deserves it. It's basically the only reason they'd side with the commies even if the alternative is a degenerated monarchy. Also it sounds like the king was hogging all the good blow
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Apr 8, 2021 22:13
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I managed to get past Titus thanks to all these tips and a ton of options that LemonDrizzle shared. I was totally out of skill points, and figured out a way to squeeze out +20 extra xp points from buying dice (which didn't reset the right convo), lifting the barbell, visiting the end of the fishing village and opening the bunker door. That gave me one more skill point which I used for the door thought, which let me re-roll Titus one more time at about 75%... That was a close call to say the least, I don't think I could have squeezed any more xp anywhere else on the map given that I pretty much finished or got stuck in all of the side quests.
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Apr 8, 2021 22:27
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Just got the update for PS4 and was able to get through the car scene with no issues. Fingers crossed the other broken scenes are also fixed!
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Apr 8, 2021 22:57
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Leon Sumbitches posted:Just got the update for PS4 and was able to get through the car scene with no issues. Fingers crossed the other broken scenes are also fixed! All is forgiven
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Apr 8, 2021 23:05
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Anyone suffer from DEIM (Disco Elysium Induced Melancholy)?
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Apr 8, 2021 23:10
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nvm, i am an idiot
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Apr 8, 2021 23:11
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Radical Liberals allying with Anarchists, Socialists and Communists to overthrow monarchies is hardly unprecedented even in our own history, if anything it's the norm when such a revolution happens. What's different in our history is that when such combined revolutions succeeded, the Liberals almost always won the post-revolution power struggle, and in Revachol's case it went the other way. I imagine Revachol's ultraliberals went into that conflict expecting that when the dust settled they'd be on top.
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Apr 8, 2021 23:25
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Epic High Five posted:I think the big difference between right wing libertarians as we know them in the US and ultraliberals in DE is that in the latter, they seem to be coming from a place where they acknowledge the system is broken and screwing them. This opposed to thinking the system is fair and working as intended, and anybody who is screwed probably deserves it.
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Apr 8, 2021 23:27
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EorayMel posted:Madre di dios *makes sign of the cross* A LIBERAL!!! Totally would
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Apr 8, 2021 23:40
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Terrible Opinions posted:It's because just like the revolution has a lot of influence from the French revolution, the ultralibs are in large part based on liberals during the French revolutions, Russia revolutions, and revolutions of 1848. All of whom were broadly a part of the same side as the communists, and always ended up betraying them as soon as their came to power. The sort of political and economic freedom liberals need to function properly is something that puts them in opposition to monarchy and merchantilist systems enough to at least temporarily side with commies. Ehm, the Russian liberals, or rather the moderate socialists if you're thinking of Kerensky's Trudovik faction (that would be it right?), didn't really do anything even close to betraying the communists. They got outmaneuvered, made a huge domestic mistake by sticking with the war, handing that ball to the Bolsheviks and got done away when the Bolsheviks turned on them, which was partly made possible because Kerensky never did betray the Bolsheviks or try to ally or get close to the White forces to outmaneuver push them out. Also no communists during the original French Revolution, and the Paris Commune wasn't as much betrayed by liberals as it was simply done in by the French military after peace had been negotiated with the Germans.
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Apr 9, 2021 00:03
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Thinking of which archetype I should use for a second run. I want something that is internally consistent and mutually beneficial instead of heavily clashing traits. For example, I briefly tried a guy who was high in physical/half light but also high in empathy, so he was constantly wanting to gently caress poo poo up, but also feeling really bad about it. Felt like there was a ton of internal conflict that you had to constantly resolve. I did a thinker of my first run, so ideally I'd get to experience a character that's high in PSY and FYS, but those two don't seem to match up well.. is there a way to reconcile that?
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Apr 9, 2021 00:46
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DreadCthulhu posted:Thinking of which archetype I should use for a second run. I want something that is internally consistent and mutually beneficial instead of heavily clashing traits. For example, I briefly tried a guy who was high in physical/half light but also high in empathy, so he was constantly wanting to gently caress poo poo up, but also feeling really bad about it. Felt like there was a ton of internal conflict that you had to constantly resolve. high inland empire + high shivers is a real acid trip
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Apr 9, 2021 00:51
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