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Seems like as others were suggesting that Undertaker definitely has some means of driving people insane when he wants to, probably I assume, whenever the Alban officers start recklessly throwing their lives away because operating independently means less people die even without the advantage Alban realtime battlefield intelligence provides. I assume it isn't because they felt shame or something because that it seems like would only work with well-intentioned Albans like our heroine, you can't shame the shameless. My guess is the heightened synchronization thing that people were thinking causes the brain damage if you turn the dial too far probably doesn't cause brain-damage if the pair actually trust and understand each other, and gives them a huge performance boost. But drives you insane if you're out of sync with each other. Sindai posted:I liked all the women having their guns on target a few frames after hearing a sound. That was pretty cool.
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Apr 24, 2021 21:18
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That was a pretty solid end of episode sequence. It emphasized just how hands off the handler really is again and that speech at her with the very important fact she never even once asked their real names hit her like a hammer. The framing mechanics of showing both sides of the conversation/battlefield is still really the most interesting part of this for me, just sets up the two different tones well.
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Apr 25, 2021 01:08
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This really has been a far better commentary on fascism than I thought it was going to be.
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Apr 25, 2021 01:23
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Overlord K posted:That was a pretty solid end of episode sequence. One thing I liked was her backstory explanation for why she tried to be better towards Spearhead. Initially, I thought of it as just "here's why she's the nice one", but it pulled useful double duty with the final rants at her to explain how she thought of the unit in general. To her, everyone she commands is like the soldier who saved her. They're loyal and heroic citizens of the republic, being treated poorly due to prejudice, but ultimately doing something they chose freely. For a historical comparison, she thinks they're the 442nd Infantry Regiment in World War II. The fact they're actual slave soldiers who have no love lost for the Republic doesn't hit her at all until the end.
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Apr 25, 2021 01:39
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A thing I really liked was spending the whole episode building up the standard Horseshoe Theory thing where Lena is "one of the good ones" only to pull the rug out at the end where they're all like "So you think that because you're polite to us that excuses the fact you knowingly and willingly order around slaves to their deaths to support you're comfy lifestyle?" And she legit breaks down knowing they're right instead of having her recite some pablum.
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Apr 26, 2021 07:22
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galagazombie posted:A thing I really liked was spending the whole episode building up the standard Horseshoe Theory thing where Lena is "one of the good ones" only to pull the rug out at the end where they're all like "So you think that because you're polite to us that excuses the fact you knowingly and willingly order around slaves to their deaths to support you're comfy lifestyle?" And she legit breaks down knowing they're right instead of having her recite some pablum. Yeah I started out watching this show worrying that they'd try to pull a "both sides have good and bad people" vibe when one of the sides is literally a fascist genocider, but the last few minutes of ep3 really drove poo poo home
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Apr 26, 2021 15:00
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A very strong follow-up episode to last week. Two things I really liked in this episode: firstly that Lena's friend and uncle were both positioned as trash. A lot of worthless milquetoast moderate garbage from both of them about how they know the system is bad but "oh you're being silly and naïve to care so much about the exploited" and "oh, it's foolish to care about an ideal because you can never achieve it so don't even bother to try". Yeah, gently caress them both. And the show frames them explicitly as trash, it is blatant that the two of them saying "it's bad, but we can't do anything so why bother caring?" is the point where you should stop caring about anything they have to say. They are wrong and they are poo poo, what they have to say isn't important, their perspective is worthless, and that's that. And seeing defeatist doomer shitbirds like them called out by the show for being the shitbirds they are?  Secondly the fact that Spearhead made it explicit that Lena is NOT an equal partner. Because she isn't, and the cast points out she isn't and she has to admit that she isn't and they're making a point that she has to deal with fact that she is not truly one of them. The fact that she confronted that head-on and acknowledges that actually makes her a better protagonist, and similarly the show is better for not pulling that particular punch. I'm reminded a lot of the dynamic in Gundam IBO between Kudelia and Mika, and what came out of that dynamic is what eventually led Kudelia to be arguably the strongest positive force in the setting. I'm definitely pulling for Lena way more now. Also the scene with Lena at the intersection juxtaposing what happened with the news reporter? God, that was SO good.
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May 1, 2021 19:17
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I had a different read on the uncle. He was telling her that her idealism is worthless if she can't do anything to back it up. Judging by his scars, I'm guessing he was one of the few Albans that actually fought on the frontlines before the brass pulled him out and stuck him behind a desk because him dying would be bad propaganda. His talk with Lena was him tacitly trying to spur her into action. Lena's friend, though, represents the mundanity of evil, yeah.
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May 1, 2021 19:45
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I have to think though that her friend probably at some point does something helpful with  otherwise why have her there specifically?
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May 1, 2021 20:17
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Mordja posted:I had a different read on the uncle. He was telling her that her idealism is worthless if she can't do anything to back it up. Judging by his scars, I'm guessing he was one of the few Albans that actually fought on the frontlines before the brass pulled him out and stuck him behind a desk because him dying would be bad propaganda. His talk with Lena was him tacitly trying to spur her into action. The web site confirms that he's one of the last surviving officers from the regular army, yeah. Considering that the early days of the war had the 86 treated as fellow soldiers rather than as human debris, he's probably less attached to the party line than the people who wrote it. He might be a piece of poo poo, he might not, but if he is, then he made a choice rather than just being swept along with the tide.
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May 1, 2021 20:34
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I'm going to be pretty surprised if the government wasn't involved in Lena's dad's death.
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May 1, 2021 22:59
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Sindai posted:I'm going to be pretty surprised if the government wasn't involved in Lena's dad's death. It screams They transported him into a dangerous area knowingly in the hopes of Uriah'ing him out of the way.
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May 1, 2021 23:07
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Mordja posted:I had a different read on the uncle. He was telling her that her idealism is worthless if she can't do anything to back it up. Judging by his scars, I'm guessing he was one of the few Albans that actually fought on the frontlines before the brass pulled him out and stuck him behind a desk because him dying would be bad propaganda. His talk with Lena was him tacitly trying to spur her into action. Same here, particularly regarding his bit on how for all his brother's words, he'd still internalized the idea that 'only 86 die out here, not people' to the extent that he took a literal child to tour a warzone. That said, her uncle, in terms of practicality, is certainly no better a person than Lena's friend (and hey may be worse, but my read of the setting is that the military doesn't really have all that much real political power since they've no real forces beyond technically the 86 and that's not really a relevant force) - he's doing just as little as she is about a crime they both recognize, though I do think their respective conversations with Lena were meant to contrast each other in their intent instead of agree.
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May 2, 2021 00:22
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Aw man that one shot in the OP is going to just end up full of dead characters by the end of this. I like when shows do that even though it's always a gut punch.
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May 2, 2021 01:10
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Pencil me in under the people who think uncle was trying to give the Major a reality check, not talk down to her about her beliefs. A lot of fiction (A LOT OF IT) seems to operate under the assumption of "If you're aware of the injustice, and you don't like it, then you're good" rules but this show is tackling the fact that there are layers to hosed up systems and you can have right-headed notion but it can still be caked in poo poo that makes it amount to less than a hill of beans, especially when it's something that's more an intellectual or an emotional concern than a practical one Though i have to say so many of the 86s having Japanese-sounding names gave me some Code Geass flashbacks.
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May 2, 2021 04:21
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OnimaruXLR posted:Pencil me in under the people who think uncle was trying to give the Major a reality check, not talk down to her about her beliefs. A lot of fiction (A LOT OF IT) seems to operate under the assumption of "If you're aware of the injustice, and you don't like it, then you're good" rules but this show is tackling the fact that there are layers to hosed up systems and you can have right-headed notion but it can still be caked in poo poo that makes it amount to less than a hill of beans, especially when it's something that's more an intellectual or an emotional concern than a practical one In a very subtle way it kinda critiques the Clean Wehrmacht myth. quote:Though i have to say so many of the 86s having Japanese-sounding names gave me some Code Geass flashbacks. I think it was alluded to that there's a Japanese expy minority that mingled/lives among the 86 who are "rare" among them. Kind of like how even in Full Metal Alchemist there's actually a counterpart Japan off of the counterpart China.
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May 2, 2021 04:28
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OnimaruXLR posted:Pencil me in under the people who think uncle was trying to give the Major a reality check, not talk down to her about her beliefs. A lot of fiction (A LOT OF IT) seems to operate under the assumption of "If you're aware of the injustice, and you don't like it, then you're good" rules but this show is tackling the fact that there are layers to hosed up systems and you can have right-headed notion but it can still be caked in poo poo that makes it amount to less than a hill of beans, especially when it's something that's more an intellectual or an emotional concern than a practical one Bonus trivia that we probably won't end up seeing in the anime since a lot of world background can't be explored: the order number for sending the 86 to the camps was 6609 which is the order number for Japanese internment in reverse
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May 2, 2021 04:35
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OnimaruXLR posted:Though i have to say so many of the 86s having Japanese-sounding names gave me some Code Geass flashbacks.
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May 2, 2021 04:42
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Raenir Salazar posted:I see episode two confirms the truth we all know in our hearts, that good girls like bad boys. The show is really giving me Gundam Wing vibes. I was already intrigued by reading about the premise in the OP, but now I'm definitely checking this out!
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May 2, 2021 04:50
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Wark Say posted:Man, I forgot Akito Geass literally has a fairly similar feel to this. I'm pretty sure that Akito was a direct inspiration for this series. It even had a telepathic squad interface called the Brain Raid System. The big difference is that the culture of San Magnolia seems to be largely based on that of Britannia, who were the enemy of the protagonists of ATE... and that the author of 86 has a much lower opinion of how functional and effective an aristocratic helot state can be.
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May 2, 2021 04:53
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kirtar posted:Bonus trivia that we probably won't end up seeing in the anime since a lot of world background can't be explored: the order number for sending the 86 to the camps was 6609 which is the order number for Japanese internment in reverse 
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May 2, 2021 05:25
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I've caught up on the anime now, so time for some wild speculation having not read any of the source material: -Handlers not being able to sync up visuals is just what the government wants everyone to think, and being able to do that is going to be a major turning point in making Lena really be able to understand and connect with the 86 and be significantly more useful on the battlefield. I wouldn't be surprised if it was able to safely connect all the senses and make her feel like she's in their body. There's got to be more there than having it just be a needlessly over-engineered comm system. Relatedly, I think Undertaker is just able to get into people's heads and freak them the hell out if he really wants to, and that's what's led to the mental trauma/suicides of past handlers and not anything to do with the tech being used. -No way 86's are being reintegrated back into society after a term of service. At minimum it's a surprise execution awaiting them, or they're somehow put to use in a way that helps the government but totally sucks to them. -Everyone is feeling way too cozy about how the war's going to end for sure in two years, based just on some assumptions as far as we've been told so far in the anime. I'd expect that after that two year mark hits and the war keeps going is when poo poo really gets real, the walls get breached, and the society that put the 86 into this position and turned a blind eye to it start paying a major price for it.
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May 3, 2021 00:50
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NowonSA posted:-No way 86's are being reintegrated back into society after a term of service. At minimum it's a surprise execution awaiting them, or they're somehow put to use in a way that helps the government but totally sucks to them. The simple way for them to do this is go "congratulations you're now an expeditionary force" followed by something along the line of "Supply drop? I'm not seeing a request for one in the system"
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May 3, 2021 01:15
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NowonSA posted:-No way 86's are being reintegrated back into society after a term of service. At minimum it's a surprise execution awaiting them, or they're somehow put to use in a way that helps the government but totally sucks to them. the absolute best case scenario is that once the robots are gone the government just leaves them outside the wall and ignores them instead of actively trying to finish them off. assuming that the robots will ever be gone, of course, which is definitely not going to happen on its own in 2 years
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May 3, 2021 03:18
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Calling it now: the entire war is some sort of elaborate veneer for an ethnic cleansing and the 86's aren't just being dehumanized they're actively being culled. GATTACA and what not.
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May 3, 2021 03:23
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Gotta say, this show definitely hits a little different in 2021 than when the first light novel was published in 2017. A fascist state wearing the ragged trappings of a liberal democracy that uses a deadly international crisis as a means of ethnic cleansing by proxy, you say?
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May 3, 2021 03:35
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Darth Walrus posted:Gotta say, this show definitely hits a little different in 2021 than when the first light novel was published in 2017. Based on what was mentioned up above, I wonder how much Japanese internment in WW2 and the successive use of Japanese-Americans in frontline units influenced his thinking.
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May 3, 2021 03:38
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NowonSA posted:I've caught up on the anime now, so time for some wild speculation having not read any of the source material: Nah, it’s just that syncing any other sense than sound is either useless or extremely distracting for the 86. Syncing vision means the 86 would have whatever the handler is seeing overlaid onto what they are actually seeing on the battlefield and could get them killed to no benefit. From the handler side, they only sync audio usually because they don’t give a poo poo about what’s happening to their slaves and prefer to distance themselves. The para-RAID is capable of synchronizing a lot more than they actually use it for, but they don’t because it’s risky to everyone involved for very little gain at best. E: also, syncing at higher levels carries increasing risk of brain damage for both parties, with full sync causing madness and then death. This is not something hidden, even the 86 know it iirc. Preechr fucked around with this message at 08:20 on May 3, 2021 |
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May 3, 2021 03:46
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Raenir Salazar posted:I have to think though that her friend probably at some point does something helpful with Her speech to Lena had huge 'defeated idealist' vibes from where I was sitting. I get the impression she did once try to help the 86, and it was a miserable failure, so she's going to have to gain the courage to try again.
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May 5, 2021 13:01
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Preechr posted:Nah, it’s just that syncing any other sense than sound is either useless or extremely distracting for the 86. Syncing vision means the 86 would have whatever the handler is seeing overlaid onto what they are actually seeing on the battlefield and could get them killed to no benefit. From the handler side, they only sync audio usually because they don’t give a poo poo about what’s happening to their slaves and prefer to distance themselves. The para-RAID is capable of synchronizing a lot more than they actually use it for, but they don’t because it’s risky to everyone involved for very little gain at best. I think saying syncing vision is "useless" is probably a stretch, considering that the handler has access to an up-to-date overhead tactical display with both allied and estimated enemy positioning, as well as it being a plot point that someone died almost literally because they hadn't had a chance to see the maps that Lena had found yet. The handler might not get much from the experience other than combat shock and PTSD, but the 86 could certainly get immediately useful information by being able to see through the handler's eyes for brief periods. Having not read the LNs at all, I agree with Nowon in that the current usage of the para-RAID as depicted is really weird. It's bizarrely over-complex and potentially dangerous to the user for something that doesn't seem to be substantially more useful than a simple radio.
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May 5, 2021 15:59
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Kanos posted:I think saying syncing vision is "useless" is probably a stretch, considering that the handler has access to an up-to-date overhead tactical display with both allied and estimated enemy positioning, as well as it being a plot point that someone died almost literally because they hadn't had a chance to see the maps that Lena had found yet. The handler might not get much from the experience other than combat shock and PTSD, but the 86 could certainly get immediately useful information by being able to see through the handler's eyes for brief periods. It's maybe more secure than radio?
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May 5, 2021 17:08
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Wasn't there some jamming system in place during one of the battles? Presumably it blocks normal communication but not the para-RAID?
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May 5, 2021 17:11
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There was a bit where Shinei specifically told Lena to stick to para raid because the other communication method revealed the 86's location.
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May 5, 2021 21:02
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LibrarianCroaker posted:There was a bit where Shinei specifically told Lena to stick to para raid because the other communication method revealed the 86's location. He says "directional laser-based data transmissions can reveal our location", which seems to be talking about a specific kind of transmission rather than all transmissions. Theoretically if the Para-RAID somehow transmits without being intercepted, you could probably come up with some way to utilize that transmission method without requiring the user to plug it into their brain if the only goal was simply "basic verbal communication", no?
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May 5, 2021 21:32
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I thought they said explicitly that the Para-RAID couldn't be intercepted by the enemy. Did I remember something wrong?
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May 6, 2021 03:46
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the para raid can't be intercepted, but that's effectively a voice only channel. also, the spider mechs are cheap pieces of poo poo with terrible sensors. the handlers have radar at least, and maybe satellites? so there is a lot of information that could be useful for handlers to convey to the fighters, except that is hard with just voip and most handlers are dimwitted lazy racists who don't bother trying. lena was trying to be helpful by sending some of that tactical info over another comms channel, which was traceable by the drones.
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May 6, 2021 04:03
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I assume that ParaRAID tech is a leftover from when San Magnolia's main military was fighting the Legion (and getting stomped flat). It's not getting used to its full potential (I'm guessing some kind of total squad mindlink, given the Akito inspiration) now they've switched to genocide-by-proxy and don't want to pollute their brainwaves with the thoughts of filthy untermensch.
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May 6, 2021 04:13
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i figure it was originally meant for something completely different, but a pared down version turned out to be useful as an undetectable and uncrackable communication method. it's too strange and ambitious a concept.
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May 6, 2021 04:36
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Gonna get mad if this show just continues with fighting mindless mechs and not killing nazis
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May 6, 2021 07:36
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Tabletops posted:Gonna get mad if this show just continues with fighting mindless mechs and not killing nazis I will also accept if the nazis get massacred by the things they enslaved people to fight.
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May 6, 2021 19:12
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