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Tabletops
Jan 27, 2014

anime
Do the helot people have kill switches or something I’m not sure why they don’t just you know slaughter the nazis

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Tabletops
Jan 27, 2014

anime
I hate that they make some of the nazis out to be normal characters like please don’t try to make me like the nazis

Tabletops
Jan 27, 2014

anime
Gonna get mad if this show just continues with fighting mindless mechs and not killing nazis

Tabletops
Jan 27, 2014

anime
I’m sure it has something to do with pararaid given all the dead people had them, their brains are used to pilot mechs and they’re integrated into their nervous system

Tabletops
Jan 27, 2014

anime
So they’re gonna defeat the legion THEN kill the nazis in the second cour right

Tabletops
Jan 27, 2014

anime

Kanos posted:

I'm really curious how pervasive the public indoctrination about "the 86s are subhuman" is at this point. It hasn't been that long since they were stripped of their rights, like not even a full generation, so I imagine the older people remember when the 86s were just normal citizens. The fact that the government propaganda makes it a point to continually refer to the spidermechs as "unmanned drones" suggests that the general public isn't clued in on the specifics of what's happening, which means that some kind of big reveal moment to the general public similar to what Lena did in the classroom might be in order.

coulda swore they said like... 7 years or some poo poo which is wildly fast lol but then again nazis worked quick too and didn't all live in one big megacity thing

Tabletops
Jan 27, 2014

anime
The legion is just the robots from hzd

Tabletops
Jan 27, 2014

anime

chiasaur11 posted:

I'd also assume the Legion would be the "real" enemy because, to be blunt...

They're actually a threat. The Albish government is genocidal (or borderline genocidal if the retirement offer is legitimate), but it's also a bunch of armchair military types at best with very little practical experience. Once their walls get breached, they don't have much fight in them.

Themes aside, that's not a very interesting last arc.

They’re genocidal, not really questionable. As they said, there’s really only kids left. Everyone else is dead.

Tabletops
Jan 27, 2014

anime
Someone said they killed the nazis but they kinda lied cause it wasn’t the 86 it was dumb robots and the 86 sacrificed themselves defending them

Its worse than if the nazis didn’t die at all

I’m mad at whoever here said they killed the nazis but did not mention this crucial information

Tabletops
Jan 27, 2014

anime

Elephant Parade posted:

So if I understand correctly, you're saying you'd specifically only have been satisfied if the 86 had personally killed the Alba? That'd have been a very specific route for the story to go down. It was also clearly not something it was building up to, given that none of the 86 ever expressed any interest in a violent rebellion.

yes. them sacrificing themselves as a last stand before the robots got into the rest of the city just made it even worse.

Tabletops
Jan 27, 2014

anime
of course it's 'justified' in the writing. I'm saying it's garbage evoking some kind of perversion of the happy slave myth, except it's both an intentional genocide and slavery at the same time and every 86 is 100% aware of it. it is wildly lovely. i'm conflicted because I generally don't like to nitpick stories that do something 'unrealistic' or don't pass some kind of logical rationalization sniff test that a lot of off the cuff/reactionary criticism falls into, but at the same time this just reeks of some really poo poo beliefs.

Tabletops fucked around with this message at 03:13 on Dec 12, 2021

Tabletops
Jan 27, 2014

anime

MonsterEnvy posted:

How.

Plus the 86 did not sacrifice themselves for the Alba.

how did they not? whats her face mobilized the entirety of the 86 to go die in 85 or whatever to hold off the legion

Tabletops
Jan 27, 2014

anime

Elephant Parade posted:

I mean, is it? Let's consider the motivations of the 86: why do they defend the state that has disenfranchised them? The members of Spearhead believe in the intrinsic value in human life and don't want to abandon the countless lives behind the wall, particularly the few non-racist ones.1 Cyclops, the only second-season San Magnolian 86 who gets any focus, seems to be motivated by a personal loyalty to Vladilena—and here you might call "well-treated slave," except that the loyalty arises not because Vladilena is nice but because she's engaged in an open rebellion against San Magnolian society that grows bolder every day and is clearly intended to culminate in emancipation for the 86. And of course, as people have discussed, abandoning the exterior front to wage a civil war would mean letting the invading Legion force kill everyone, themselves included. In short, they aren't defending San Magnolia because they're "well-treated slaves": they're defending it because it fits their values and is in their own self-interest.

1. The obvious question here is, "What about the non-Alba who don't believe that? What about the ones who think, equally validly, that their oppressors can go die?" I don't think this question is directly answered, but you might justify it as selection bias—the people who have no motivation to defend San Magnolia aren't going to survive almost five years of brutal combat doing just that, instead burning out, giving up, committing suicide, attempting rebellion, and so on.


i used the well treated slave myth as analogy because it usually imparts agency on behalf of the slave - ie they are Ok with being a slave because they are treated well and it's just like having a job. In this case, they are ok with being slaves that are forced to fight and die as an efficient way to eradicate them while fighting their masters enemies because uhh, they don't wanna kill people? essentially?

Your description of them as 'disenfranchised' is an incredible understatement of what is a 1-1 nazi reenactment methodical genocide, with the added bonus of them also being a slave army a-la spartan helots. The genocide and slavery began within all of the characters lifespans, they all knew it was happening and how.

The idea that they believe in the intrinsic value of human life is wild to me, when they say over, and over and over again how their lives are forfeit and they all accept that they're just here to die and all 86 will eventually die either directly or indirectly through battle. They know there is no freedom in 5 years of service besides just execution by proxy.

My whole point is that the depiction of an enslaved, genocided group simply accepting this fact and in the end willingly dying to protect them and their infrastructure (lol), when they simultaneously all acknowledge that their last stand is pointless in the face of the legions forces. I think it's lovely that the nazis essentially win by default. They die eventually, after the 86, but they win all the same.

Tabletops
Jan 27, 2014

anime

ninjewtsu posted:

tabletop's position is basically that the story should not have constructed itself such that the 86 would choose to protect the alba, and placing them in a circumstance where doing so makes sense makes the story worse.

and i dunno "the 86 should have genocided the alba back" seems like a lovely alternate take even ignoring that the show has presented that as a very real possibility and not particularly condemned the idea


I just thought they should have fled east like shin told them and the nazi lady to

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Tabletops
Jan 27, 2014

anime

Mordja posted:

That's...not really an option. Spearhead was able to escape because they were able to BSOD the Legion when they "killed" Shin's brother, giving them a very brief window of opportunity to breach enemy lines. The fact that they were able to then make it as far as they did was only because they were a very small squad, and because of Shin's ability to tell where the enemy was. A mass exodus of regular 86 would have been impossible.

the last thing shin tells whats her face (that i remember) is to escape east, because the legion offensive will come on the west, shin's squads miracle was them surviving going to the west, through the legions line

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