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Vizuyos
Jun 17, 2020

Thank U for reading

If you hated it...
FUCK U and never come back


Welcome to the Let's V-Tube Megathread!

================
FAQ
================

What the hell is a vee-tube?

Basically, it's streaming or making videos, but instead of a facecam, you use face-tracking to make a virtual avatar follow your movements. Pioneered by folks like Kizuna Ai, Tokino Sora, and Nyanners, it's been around for a few years, but started to really take off in popularity over the last year or so with the exploding popularity of big names like Inugami Korone and Gawr Gura.

Why does anyone care?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6GKBZPBMFYU

No, really, what's the attraction here?

There's a lot of different things that draw people to it. Some people enjoy being able to dispense with the facecams and be able to stream without worrying about all the poo poo that comes with putting their real appearance or identity out there on the internet. Some people want to look more like their ideal self or identity (there are a lot of LGBTQ+ V-tubers). Some people want to roleplay or give life to their totally original anime fan character. Some people want to explore the weird and interesting possibilities of virtual content creation. And some people just wanna be an anime character.

What if I don't want to be an anime?

GET OUT You don't have to be an anime! A huge number of Vtubers are anime-style, but if you want a different style, that's fine too. Anything that can be drawn or modeled can potentially be turned into a Vtuber avatar. Want to be an fantasy-style orc? Get in line, because I'm pretty sure there's a couple already. Dwarf? Ran across one a couple days ago on Twitch. Giant mech? Seen a few. Ordinary bird? Go ahead! Furry? Of course you can. Giant floating number nine? No one's judging your choices here. Cartoon animal? Sure, but I don't think it's possible to be as adorable as Captain Crabs:
https://twitter.com/CaptCrabs/status/1379510444650532865

I still don't really get it, can you point me at some examples?

There's seriously a ton of examples out there, but as far as jumping-in points go, you'd probably want to look into Hololive for Japan-based Vtubers (many of them speak some English, and there's plenty of subtitled clips) or VShojo for English Vtubers. There's also clip-gathering Twitter accounts like English Vtubers Out Of Context for short Vtuber tidbits:
https://twitter.com/EngVTubersOOC/status/1380926234385920003
For more recommendations, there's a general thread for watching and discussing Vtubers in ADTRW, and they're pretty much always posting clips and updates there: https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3938846

What do Vtubers do?

Everything regular non-virtual streamers, LPers, and content creators do, though sometimes with a spin. Game streaming or game videos, art streams, singing and karaoke, variety streaming, podcasts, coding streams, weird challenges like eating bugs on stream, and pretty much anything else you can think of.

Okay, so how does it actually work?

First, you get a webcam or mobile phone and set up some face-tracking software that reads your movements and translates them into movement parameter values. Then you create a 2D or 3D avatar, and rig it so that various parts of the face and body will move appropriately when those movement parameter values are changed. Put that avatar into your face-tracking software, add it as an OBS source, and from there it's just like any other streaming or video-making.

How to actually do it

Well, before we get into the details, we need to ask one question: what kind of avatar do you want?
================
2D Avatar
================
A 2D avatar is basically any avatar that started off as a static image which was then rigged using a Japanese animation system called Live2D. Live2D is useful because instead of swapping between different art to produce movement, it works by warping and deforming the art that's already there, which makes it well-suited to producing a number of different expressions with minimal actual artwork necessary. It initially took off in visual novels and mobile gacha games, but it turned out to be just as good for Vtubers.

Pros:
  • You get pretty much exactly what the artist drew, so if you want an unusual art style on your avatar or some significant departure from simple human features, it's just a matter of putting pen to paper (metaphorically, anyway).
  • It's not especially difficult to get something really distinctive if that's what you want.
  • Can be really detailed and elaborate
Cons:
  • If you don't have the art skills to create your vision yourself, you pretty much have to pay someone to draw it, and a Vtuber avatar is usually more expensive than regular art. This can get expensive, especially if you end up paying someone to do the rigging for you too.
  • You're pretty much limited solely to face tracking and head tracking, and there's a soft limit on how much head movement the avatar can really express before the rigging difficulty starts to really shoot up.
  • You can do basically no AR, VR, or full-body stuff with this. 2D avatars will find it difficult to do anything more dynamic than sitting there looking at the screen.

You can't use just any old image, though. In order to Live2D-animate an image, every part that might need to move or act independently needs to be on a completely separate layer. For example, each eye is at minimum four layers - the whites of the eyes, the pupil, the eyelid, and any highlights in the eye. If you want to do anything more elaborate, you need even more layers. On top of that, some parts that would normally be hidden by elements in front of them still need to be drawn, in case they're revealed when the stuff in front moves. So you need to either make sure the image is created with Live2D in mind, or go back and cut and redraw parts of the image to make it suitable. It's not super hard, but it's some extra effort to keep in mind - which is why L2D-ready art is often more expensive.

Once you've got the art ready, you load it into Live2D's Cubism editor and start animating. The free version is limited, but the pro version has a 42-day trial period, which gives you plenty of time to rig an avatar. It's already set up with parameters for pretty much every facial movement you'd need, you've just gotta put motions to the parameters. It's not too hard to do a passable Live2D rig yourself (I did my own rigging), though having some art comprehension helps a lot since you need to use perspective and parallax to give it a faux-3D look. You can probably get a better result if you hire or commission someone with Live2D experience to do it, though. Top-tier pro Live2D riggers can do some pretty loving elaborate stuff, if you're willing to give them the money and time for it.

Once you've got a fully-rigged Live2D avatar, you need face-tracking software that supports it. The main options are VTube Studio, PrprLive, Facerig, and Animaze. Each has their own quirks, but I largely see VTubeStudio and Prprlive regarded as the top choices - Facerig is old and expensive, while Animaze has an amazingly lovely business model. If you have a decent iPhone, VTubeStudio is a really solid pick because it can leverage your iPhone's built-in face-tracking software. If you're using a webcam, you can try out both VTubeStudio and Prprlive for free before you decide which one you want to sink money into. Personally, I use VTubeStudio, as its interface is closest to passable and it's got some nice extra features.

As a side note, if you see Vtubers talking about their "mama" or "papa", it's a trend in the Vtuber community to refer to the artist and rigger as the character's "parents".

================
3D Avatar
================
I honestly don't have any firsthand experience with 3D avatars, but I know there's two major ways to do them: using a Japanese 3D character creator called Vroid to produce a reasonably rig-ready 3D humanoid model, or using 3D modeling software to make whatever the gently caress you want and then manually rigging it however the hell you want. I can't go into much detail myself because I don't know much detail (if anyone has more info, please contribute and I'll gladly edit stick it here), but here's the basics:

VRoid
Pros:
  • With the right tracking, it can give you a much larger range of head movement than 2D avatars can manage
  • Can support hand tracking (using Leap Motion or other trackers) and even full-body 3D tracking (again, using physical trackers attached to your body)
  • Can be converted to Unity models fairly easily, allowing them to be used in game stuff and custom 3D content
  • Can be used as player models in some games (including VR games), either directly or via Unity conversion
  • You don't need to be an expert 3D modeler or artist to create a passable model
  • There's a software ecosystem built around using VRM files, so there's various stuff you can do with them without having to do conversion or anything
Cons:
  • The default textures look like rear end and a lot of people use them, you're gonna have to go out and get some assets if you want something better
  • It's designed for creating humanoid characters, so there seems to be a limit to how much you can depart from the basic human shape and face

Other 3D modeling software
Pros:
  • You can probably do pretty much whatever the gently caress you want
Cons
  • You need to actually know how to 3D model
  • You need to know how to do 3D rigging
  • You probably need to learn how to manually hook up your face-tracker to whatever you rigged

So, yeah. It depends on what kind of appearance you want to go with, and what kind of activities you're aiming for. If you're wanting to do something like dance or VR, a 3D avatar might be a better fit. In terms of face-tracking software, I've seen the following names thrown around: VSeeFace, Luppet, Wakaru, and Hitogata. I basically know nothing about them, but here's a comparison (from the VSeeFace dev):
https://twitter.com/emiliana_vt/status/1275424412167221248

================
Other Info
================
Once you have an avatar and stuff set up, from there it's basically just regular streaming. Just add your chosen face-tracking software as a source in OBS, and start thinking of exciting virtual things you can do as a Vtuber. The OP of the Let's Stream Megathread covers the basics of regular streaming; it's a bit old, but most of the info is basically still good. We can talk about it here or there. Honestly, I'm still new at streaming myself.

Also, a quick note on real identities. Some Vtubers start with a blank slate, without revealing who they were before they became a Vtuber. This happens a lot with corporate Vtubers who're taking up an identity the company paid to create, but there's also plenty of indie Vtubers who just feel more comfortable with the extra layer of privacy for one reason or another. While it's often possible to link them to their old identities anyway, let's not make a big deal about doing so here. If they want to pretend there's no one behind that digital mask, just let them. I'd like to borrow a rule from the other Vtubers thread for this:

quote:

Mentions and discussion of V-tuber's previous identities should be spoiler tagged and not be extended discussions. This thread should not read like a redacted CIA document. Also, don't go trying to theorize/dig up info on who these V-tubers might be, that's just creepy behavior.

================
Vtubers to check out
================
Are you a vtuber yourself, or do you have a friend who Vtubes? Let me know and I can put it right here in the OP!

================
This sounds incredibly stupid
================
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yLRv0b6wJlA

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Sundae
Dec 1, 2005

Wheeeeeee!




Thanks for making this thread! I'm glad to see a potential shop-talk thread, since the ADTRW one is really more fan-oriented and I feel weird constantly breaking the fourth wall while they're trying to enjoy someone's karaoke stream.

I'm the tech-guy / sorta-manager for an indie VTuber with ~660 subs. Luna Miura is a variety streamer with a focus on art, charity streams as often as she feels she can get away with them (she's giving them a break since her last one raised over $1,000 for Find Your Light and she's worried she's drained her fan-base's wallet enough for now), and lately she's been dabbling in Hindi language content.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCbPFa0AZKM2LtBP1gU1TTsQ




If anyone has tech or general implementation questions or is interested in getting into VTubing, please feel free to bounce questions off me. I'm not a VTuber myself, but I've had plenty of experience now being told "I want to do _____________, can you make that happen?" and having to figure it out before stream-day.


quote:

Sure, but I don't think it's possible to be as adorable as Captain Crabs:

Captain Crabs is fabulous. You have fine taste in crustaceans.

quote:

Ordinary bird?

https://twitter.com/i/status/1332069647148048384

Sundae fucked around with this message at 06:41 on Apr 20, 2021

Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

Milk's on them.




Been thinking about what it takes to ďbreak outĒ as a vtuber. It seems to pretty much boil down to a couple things:

1. A particularly significant, clippable moment, usually humorous, and
2. A close connection with the audience, by opening up and letting the audience know about them as an individual.

The grand majority of ďpopularĒ ones out there have at least those two things. e.g. Koroneís Eekum Bokum + repeated use of the audience as part of her streams and OkaKoro, Marineís ďIím horny!Ē + talking about her past and interests, Guraís ďaĒ + hilarious gremlin-y life stories, Watame Did Nothing Wrong + her cute and lovable personality in conjunction with sheer amount of audience interaction via superchat readings, Cocoís...everything + being able to capture an English audience relatively early.

Doing the second is really obvious: remember that the audience is there and that the streams are ultimately a give and take of sorts. Doing the first is not, and is mostly just luck, unfortunately. The best I can think of is to deep dive into things you personally find interesting and get excited about them, as well as inject imagination and creativity into anything you do.

But Iím not a vtuber - hell, Iím not even a content creator - so take what I say with a grain of salt. But I would love to someday see an evidence-driven guideline to being a unique and impactful personality.

Takoluka
Jun 26, 2009

Don't look at me!




The key to being a successful Vtuber is basically the same as any streamer or content creator: you need to be fun and have fun. What the former means is subjective, but the latter is all about just doing what you want to do. When you have fun, others will have fun too. Obviously, in the case of Vtubers, there's also an aspect of your aesthetic (i.e. cute character designs, voice, etc), but the real focus of trying to "break out" is the former.

Something really important to consider in all of this is that you cannot compare yourself as a new Vtuber to big corporate talents like Hololive or Nijisanji. A new Hololive generation achieves breakout success before they even debut, simply by virtue of being a member of Hololive. As an example, we'll use someone from Hololive on the lower end of the scale: Ayunda Risu of Hololive Indonesia. She debuted on April 10, 2021. She had over 20,000 subscribers by April 12. Her only content was her debut stream. There are very talented Vtubers and streamers that break 20k eventually after maybe a year. Because she has brand recognition, she will succeed. She will get clipped. She will flourish. Some HoloEN members broke 20k before they even debuted. This is just the nature of things. Like, with Pollyanna's post:

Pollyanna posted:

The grand majority of “popular” ones out there have at least those two things. e.g. Korone’s Eekum Bokum + repeated use of the audience as part of her streams and OkaKoro, Marine’s “I’m horny!” + talking about her past and interests, Gura’s “a” + hilarious gremlin-y life stories, Watame Did Nothing Wrong + her cute and lovable personality in conjunction with sheer amount of audience interaction via superchat readings, Coco’s...everything + being able to capture an English audience relatively early.

There are six Hololive talents in this example and no others. Hololive absolutely dominates Vtuber discussion, and I think that's really really bad for the scene as a whole. Plenty of people think that Nijisanji copied Hololive, so even big names like Tsukino Mito get viewed as living in the shadow of talents like Pekora and Korone. Mito had a NicoNico stream where she watched The Human Centipede, and it had over 500,000 active viewers, including members of the JP dub cast. She's not small potatoes, but people haven't heard of her for some reason. It's even worse for indies. Even big indie stars like Pikamee and Artemis of the Blue, with their virality, can't compete with the likes of any given HoloEN member. There's a JP Vtuber I watch who is kinda monotone and maxes out her streams at like 12 viewers unless she's doing random karaoke, when she hits about 20. She's adorable, though, and she's got a ton of charm. If I wasn't actively focusing on the smaller indies, she's just go by the wayside, and that's really unfortunate. There's a lot of talented Vtubers out there putting out great content, and you'll never see it unless you go on your own journey. The majority of clippers, which is where almost all casual Vtuber fans get their content, will only focus on Hololive. There are indie Vtubers who literally collab with HoloID talents, and they have to work twice as hard to get noticed.

The point here is that you can see your Hololive favs as sempais worth looking up to, but when it comes down to it, you can't compare yourself to them and their successes. It's not fair to you, and it will get really discouraging if you try. Virality is the key to "making it big," and even if you go viral, there's no guarantee you'll make it into the big leagues. As an entertainer, the most important thing is to have fun and be yourself; you'll gain an audience. Once you're established and comfortable, you can adjust to your growth needs.

quote:

The best I can think of is to deep dive into things you personally find interesting and get excited about them, as well as inject imagination and creativity into anything you do.

In the end, it's this.

Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

Milk's on them.




Yeah, thereís an important distinction to be made between ďmaking it bigĒ and being a notable presence. The difference is one of platform, and Hololive has a massive one. You canít meaningfully compare vtubers without compensating for that. Even then, though, your platform means a lot, and I still donít know how to deal with it.

I guess we need to properly define success, and to control for differences in platforms like Hololive vs Nijisanji vs indie.

FractalSandwich
Apr 25, 2010


Takoluka posted:

Hololive absolutely dominates Vtuber discussion, and I think that's really really bad for the scene as a whole. Plenty of people think that Nijisanji copied Hololive, so even big names like Tsukino Mito get viewed as living in the shadow of talents like Pekora and Korone. Mito had a NicoNico stream where she watched The Human Centipede, and it had over 500,000 active viewers, including members of the JP dub cast. She's not small potatoes, but people haven't heard of her for some reason.
There's an important caveat here which I assume you're well aware of, but didn't specifically mention: all that is true in the English-speaking world. People in Japan know better.

Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

Milk's on them.




Oh yeah, definitely. I can only think of one Nijisanji member who has any sizable English audience (and another who really should be more popular but unfortunately is graduating soon ). Tapping into the English sphere is huge.

Vinigre
Feb 18, 2011

Prepare your bladder for imminent release!


For those looking for more resources on 3D avatars, Fofamit on YouTube has quite a few videos that go into technical detail on tracking software/hardware, models, rigging, and the like.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jUgQYwGx7cY

Kanfy
Jan 9, 2012

Just gotta keep walking down that road.


I think one interesting, and perhaps a bit unfortunate, effect Hololive specifically being the big breakout company in the English-speaking world is that they've focused almost completely on strictly female talent (who are very good!) which in turn feels like it even more firmly established a vtuber = anime girl mentality in the western mainstream, while elsewhere in the Japanese scene there is a lot more variety even amongst the bigger names.

For instance two of the three currently most popular Nijisanji vtubers are males, and a number of popular company vtubers include cross-dressers, non-binary folk and people openly belonging to sexual minorities which makes for a refreshingly diverse mix of people. At least some of it can likely be attributed to differences in streaming culture too, though.

Takoluka
Jun 26, 2009

Don't look at me!




Kanfy posted:

I think one interesting, and perhaps a bit unfortunate, effect Hololive specifically being the big breakout company in the English-speaking world is that they've focused almost completely on strictly female talent (who are very good!) which in turn feels like it even more firmly established a vtuber = anime girl mentality in the western mainstream, while elsewhere in the Japanese scene there is a lot more variety even amongst the bigger names.

For instance two of the three currently most popular Nijisanji vtubers are males, and a number of popular company vtubers include cross-dressers, non-binary folk and people openly belonging to sexual minorities which makes for a refreshingly diverse mix of people. At least some of it can likely be attributed to differences in streaming culture too, though.

The otome game market is absolutely enormous in the West, and people are clamoring for big male Vtubers. Nijisanji is full of great guys, Holostars is cool as heck, and the indie scene is chock full of hilarious dudes. It's unfortunately true that on this side of the water, guy Vtubers just don't hit the same way, and they absolutely can if clippers and subbed compilations would give them the exposure they deserve. There's a market here. Like, listen to this singing!

https://youtu.be/fY1THeY4IzE

And he's just a smaller Twitch streamer. That sort of barrier probably makes the scene seem very intimidating to enter, despite a lot of the community being very cool and accepting.

Vizuyos
Jun 17, 2020

Thank U for reading

If you hated it...
FUCK U and never come back


Pollyanna posted:

Been thinking about what it takes to ďbreak outĒ as a vtuber. It seems to pretty much boil down to a couple things:

1. A particularly significant, clippable moment, usually humorous, and
2. A close connection with the audience, by opening up and letting the audience know about them as an individual.

The grand majority of ďpopularĒ ones out there have at least those two things. e.g. Koroneís Eekum Bokum + repeated use of the audience as part of her streams and OkaKoro, Marineís ďIím horny!Ē + talking about her past and interests, Guraís ďaĒ + hilarious gremlin-y life stories, Watame Did Nothing Wrong + her cute and lovable personality in conjunction with sheer amount of audience interaction via superchat readings, Cocoís...everything + being able to capture an English audience relatively early.

Doing the second is really obvious: remember that the audience is there and that the streams are ultimately a give and take of sorts. Doing the first is not, and is mostly just luck, unfortunately. The best I can think of is to deep dive into things you personally find interesting and get excited about them, as well as inject imagination and creativity into anything you do.

But Iím not a vtuber - hell, Iím not even a content creator - so take what I say with a grain of salt. But I would love to someday see an evidence-driven guideline to being a unique and impactful personality.

Gura's "a" only had any impact because Hololive EN was highly anticipated among English-speaking Vtuber fans, but there was nothing known about them beyond their names and character designs. So there was a very excited worldwide audience eager to find out about them. If she'd been your average indie with a handful of followers, "a" would have literally gone unnoticed. Similarly, Watame's "warukonai yo neeeee" took off because she was already a fairly popular Vtuber, who had another highly popular Vtuber highlight it in her vids. They were both genuinely funny bits, but they were crafted in full awareness of the Vtubers' situations. In particular, HoloEN knew very well that there were thousands of people extremely hype for HoloEN and there were thousands of people watching their twitter accounts in anticipation of more info, and so they started their Twitter accounts off with jokes to tease the audiences with a bit of character and set the stage for how they wanted to be perceived.

It's very important to know your situation and act according to it. I see a lot of people mimicking the popular Vtubers and the corporate Vtubers, and a lot of the time that falls flat because impressing an audience is completely different from gaining an audience in the first place. Things like model reveals and debut Q&A sessions are all well and good if you already have an interested audience eager to hear more about you, but most indies don't have that luxury. It doesn't matter how clippable your stream is if you're streaming to an empty audience, so you need to go around building up your visibility before you can even really think about going viral. And unless you convince a company with an actual marketing budget to hire you, there's no substitute for the day-by-day work of making content, advertising it, networking with people, and finding ways to get your work in front of more communities.

Take Hoshimachi Suisei. She started off as a complete indie who did everything herself. She made her own models, edited her own videos, wrote her own original songs, and more, and it was all drat good. She later joined Hololive, where her artistic and musical talents have been supplemented by a number of memeable moments and interactions with other talents, and she currently has 848K subscribers on Youtube. These days, she takes about 2 months to get another hundred thousand subscribers. But she recently talked about how, before she joined Hololive, she only had a few thousand subscribers despite more than a year of effort and was at the point of considering quitting. Hololive was her big break, in that it brought in more attention and marketing for her while at the same time providing staff who could do some of the work for her.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xEr8TzYzo8Y

At this point, I'd say "big corporate Vtuber" and "indie Vtuber" are almost completely different fields. Hololive EN all hit 100k subscribers on or before their debut day, while your average new indie Vtuber will likely be lucky to have a couple dozen. Gura had tens of thousands of concurrent viewers for her debut, while my debut stream topped out at 14 viewers. Hololivers have to think about how to grow and keep their audience, while I'm pretty much just focused on having an audience at all. A content creator needs to make solid, interesting content no matter how many or how few people are watching them, but it's best to clear all thoughts of Hololive from your mind and look at other small creators instead when you're thinking about how to grow your presence.

And one last thing: you have to be able to have fun doing it, even if you don't make it big. It's nice to see the numbers go up, but my goal is basically to be able to sit there chatting with a few interested viewers and keep them entertained while I'm streaming several hours of Crusader Kings or Kerbal Space Program or some intensely obscure spreadsheet game, and have some people around to see whatever I come up with when I get some zany "wouldn't it be cool if" idea in my head. If you're plowing thousands of dollars into Vtubing with the goal of having a hundred thousand viewers, you're likely wasting your time and money, and if you're not enjoying the content creation for its own sake then there's no way you'll be able to stick with it.

Vizuyos
Jun 17, 2020

Thank U for reading

If you hated it...
FUCK U and never come back


As for myself, my own plan for growth has been to hit a niche that isn't all that common among streamers: mapgames, grand strategy games, 4Xs, production games, sandboxy building games, story-builders, and grognardy poo poo with terrible UIs. At some point or another, I'll probably be playing Factorio-style games, the whole Paradox catalog, Kerbal Space Program, city-builders, games like Dwarf Fortress or Warsim, sci-fi and mecha stuff, and (if I can ever figure out how to make it stream-friendly or LPable) supernerd poo poo like Aurora or Rule the Waves.

If any of that stuff appeals to you, come check me out:


https://twitch.tv/renpona

I'm still trying to find a good balance in terms of what to stream when, since a lot of these games can go on forever and I don't want to hand my whole schedule over to megacampaigns too early. I wanna stream EU4 when the new DLC comes out, but I started a Stellaris campaign on Friday, so I'm kinda undecided on exactly how I should move forward. Wouldn't be as much of a problem if I streamed more often, but I've been busy IRL lately.

Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

Milk's on them.




This ties back to what Calli was talking about in Off With Their Heads:

https://youtu.be/_M-6lkoi6L4

quote:

You want a balanced following?
Then start creating, stop tweeting
This ain't me hating
I'm just bored from all the talkers I'm beating
And getting sick of retching endlessly from excuses I'm reading
But man, poo poo, knowing their tendencies
It's no use, you're never leaving

Itís sad to say, thereís a lot of people in love with the idea of Vtubing, but being a Vtuber or any kind of content creator means...creating content. You canít just commission art and park your rear end on Twitter expecting to rake in the fadbux if you donít actually do anything. And yet, thereís a shitload of people who exist only as a Twitter account and a couple art pieces and a sizable chunk of followers like some sort of weird post-cyberpunk Potemkin.

Like, a good example of this is Artemis, who sadly has really cooled off from her debut. Artemisí big draw was her character concept, 100%, but that wasnít enough on its own to carry an entire streamer. Part of the issue is that she was (through no real fault of her own) overhyped due to ďhaha teef like electric monster and shark what go aĒ and a really good model, but part of it is that her content just hasnít been compelling enough (at least for me) to justify repeated viewings. You have to both attract an audience and keep them, and the latter part is the hard part and the part you have to nail down first!

Also, like...Vtubing has exploded in popularity and the market is supersaturated by now. You have to be really unique to capture peopleís attention. People were fascinated by Vtubers cause there was almost nothing like it before. Now, poo poo, throw a stone and youíll hit one. Itís the same deal that happened with steaming and youtubing in general.

This is why I highly discourage Vtubers from doing debut streams if they arenít already in Hololive. Nobodyís excited for someone who doesnít meaningfully exist yet. As a content creator, your job is to create content, and thatís the first thing you should do! Donít obsess over a Live2D model or a character concept or putting a group together or gaining 10k Twitter followers or some bullshit. That comes later.

Hereís what you do to get started: make a fuckin video already. Start a stream of some wacky bullshit that you yourself are into. Get people hooked, even if itís just a few. If you prove to be interesting, then make yer drat Live2D if youíre willing to put the time and effort in. Thatís what Iíd do if I started streaming.

Kanfy posted:

I think one interesting, and perhaps a bit unfortunate, effect Hololive specifically being the big breakout company in the English-speaking world is that they've focused almost completely on strictly female talent (who are very good!) which in turn feels like it even more firmly established a vtuber = anime girl mentality in the western mainstream, while elsewhere in the Japanese scene there is a lot more variety even amongst the bigger names.

For instance two of the three currently most popular Nijisanji vtubers are males, and a number of popular company vtubers include cross-dressers, non-binary folk and people openly belonging to sexual minorities which makes for a refreshingly diverse mix of people. At least some of it can likely be attributed to differences in streaming culture too, though.

Yeah, itís a bit poo poo. Thereís as many diverse Vtubers as there are people on this planet, but as above, so below, and us minorities are less visible.

Thatís not to say they donít exist! In Nijisanji alone, I know of Gundou Mirei, Melissa Kinrenka, Sukoya Kana, and Shirayuki Tomoe. Also Noor Iím pretty sure:

https://twitter.com/noor_vtuber/status/1377624313898106881?s=21
https://twitter.com/noor_vtuber/status/1377624355920838657?s=21

Hell, if weíre just talking the West, a sizable chunk of Vtubers are some sort of gender minority. Weíre here dammit!!!!

BTW you should really follow Melissa theyíre dope based super lit.

https://twitter.com/melissa_2434/status/1384465004578033674?s=21

Pollyanna fucked around with this message at 16:54 on Apr 20, 2021

Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

Milk's on them.




To change gears a bit: what needs to be done about pre-existing online identities and accounts if someone wants to set up a Vtuber character or similar personality? Cause itís a sad fact that people love to creep on past identities and such. And I got to thinking, is your best bet to wipe the slate clean with your existing identities (e.g. wipe Twitter posts, YouTube channels, etc.) if youíve used it for personal/close-to-RL stuff and continue using it? Or make an entirely separate identity and try your damndest not to let the two get correlated?

Pollyanna fucked around with this message at 16:57 on Apr 20, 2021

Quackles
Aug 11, 2018

Pixels of Light.


Pollyanna posted:

It’s sad to say, there’s a lot of people in love with the idea of Vtubing, but being a Vtuber or any kind of content creator means...creating content.

Me and a friend were talking about VTubers lately, and a similar sentiment to this came up. One of us proposed that some people who like the idea of VTubing don't actually want to stream. They want to be an anime girl - and I'm inclined to take this hypothesis seriously. (Think of it kind of like furries and fursuits? I don't know if that metaphor carries over properly.)

I don't know what you'd advise someone who's in that headspace, but it's an interesting differentiation...

Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

Milk's on them.




Quackles posted:

Me and a friend were talking about VTubers lately, and a similar sentiment to this came up. One of us proposed that some people who like the idea of VTubing don't actually want to stream. They want to be an anime girl - and I'm inclined to take this hypothesis seriously. (Think of it kind of like furries and fursuits? I don't know if that metaphor carries over properly.)

I don't know what you'd advise someone who's in that headspace, but it's an interesting differentiation...

thereís a good reason why us trans women tend to be enamored with vtubing

Sundae
Dec 1, 2005

Wheeeeeee!




I'm actually working on an idea to deal with the clipper poo poo, but it's going to take me a week or two and may not work at all because exposure begets exposure in an algorithm-driven world. Still, worth trying. I'll post an update once I have more to show from it. I have to deal with the human world for a little bit first.

Also, for anyone looking at 3D stuff who wants a basic idea of what goes into it, check out PHIA's channel. She has an entire playlist dedicated to 3Dtuber tutorials: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLdI9TI7mJBsnVDSN6ygkNcOJo-WQitK8R
She's an absolute sweetie and answers a lot of questions in her Discord if you have anything in particular you're wondering about. It's a good place to get started learning.


FYI, if you are considering starting up VTubing, please please do your homework first. Unless you already know you're into streaming and will stick with it, don't spend insane amounts of money on this poo poo. Like any hobby, VTubing has a wonderfully low cost of entry but a hilariously high ceiling of expenditure. I see far too many people who slap down thousands of dollars on gear / models / music / art / whatever for their streams, do it for two months and then either realize it's not for them or give up because they aren't growing exponentially. I also see people who spend a lot on a model and then realize it isn't the right model for them, and then spend even more to get what they really wanted now that they realize it.

If you aren't sure what you want to do, come in as a PNGtuber or something and try it out for a bit. See if you even like the idea once you're doing it. Plus, it's way cheaper to ask some artist on DeviantArt to make you a different character for PNGtubing than it is to pay someone to draw/rig up an entirely new Live2D or do another 3D model.

Live2D General Pricing:

Low-end Live2D: $100-300 for rigging, $100 -200 for Art. (I don't mean low-end as in low-quality, but low end of pricing.)
Mid-tier Live2D: $300-500 for rigging, $500ish for art.
High-end Live2D: $500-1000+ for rigging, $500-1000+ for art. For perspective's sake on this end: when I was doing model procurement for a VTuber recently, IronVertex (broadly considered to be the best easily western-accessible Live2D-making group) quoted $3800 for art+rig, and the artist/rigger who did Cimrai's work quoted 4000 euros for art+rig.

3D Pricing: (I don't have as much experience here, so this is more going off of what I see other people do / charge)

VRoid w/ Base Textures: Free if you do it yourself, $50-100 if you pay someone. You can find tons of people to do this, but just learn and do it yourself. If you're going to pay anyone for this stuff, have them do the hair. The hair modeling is weird in VRoidStudio.
VRoid w/ Custom Textures: $100-400 depending on complexity of design. A pretty good in-between if you're not an artist. ArgamaWitch makes custom textures that come out pretty well from what I've seen.
Custom Model, Sculpted: Sky's the limit on your pricing here. Expect to pay around $1500 for a rigged model from a popular-but-accessible modeler (e.g., Shonzo), if you can get onto their waitlist. The artist who did the new VShojo 3D models (TheArtGun) starts at approx $4K for 3D models and is booked out through June with non-disclosure jobs, probably for the rest of the group. VRCTraders Discord regularly has people list their services in the $500-1000 range, but most of them are pretty bad. Really, expect to pay $1500 if you want a good 3D model.

Elkyrie
Mar 18, 2014


Hey all, I got linked this thread as I'm knee-deep in my own pre-debut mess, so I thought I'd just drop in and awkwardly namedrop myself?

I've been streaming for a good while now and I don't know, the idea of having an anime girl in the corner during streams appealed to me so I decided to just go for it. Don't really have any big expectations, I'm not trying to become famous (people have already made the very true points of market over-saturation, being internet famous needs luck, being Vtube famous needs you being part of a big group, etc etc), just in it to have fun. I only really have experience with streaming games for now, I don't really have anything else planned yet. I might do some language themed streams in the future but that's just a thought for now?
But yeah, going to start using my model this Saturday, wish me luck!



And before I forget, my Twitch account in case you want to come dunk on me.


Sundae posted:

FYI, if you are considering starting up VTubing, please please do your homework first. Unless you already know you're into streaming and will stick with it, don't spend insane amounts of money on this poo poo. Like any hobby, VTubing has a wonderfully low cost of entry but a hilariously high ceiling of expenditure. I see far too many people who slap down thousands of dollars on gear / models / music / art / whatever for their streams, do it for two months and then either realize it's not for them or give up because they aren't growing exponentially. I also see people who spend a lot on a model and then realize it isn't the right model for them, and then spend even more to get what they really wanted now that they realize it.

If you aren't sure what you want to do, come in as a PNGtuber or something and try it out for a bit. See if you even like the idea once you're doing it. Plus, it's way cheaper to ask some artist on DeviantArt to make you a different character for PNGtubing than it is to pay someone to draw/rig up an entirely new Live2D or do another 3D model.

Can't emphasize this enough. I've sadly seen a lot of people around me do this and it always breaks my heart. Now they're sat there with a 2k model they could use if the fancy strikes them but very likely never will.

Pollyanna posted:

To change gears a bit: what needs to be done about pre-existing online identities and accounts if someone wants to set up a Vtuber character or similar personality? Cause it’s a sad fact that people love to creep on past identities and such. And I got to thinking, is your best bet to wipe the slate clean with your existing identities (e.g. wipe Twitter posts, YouTube channels, etc.) if you’ve used it for personal/close-to-RL stuff and continue using it? Or make an entirely separate identity and try your damndest not to let the two get correlated?

Personally I worked off the assumption that in my situation it would be fine, sadly I do have some personal stuff that I had attached to this name, but since I'm so small-time, you know, should be fine. I only choose to keep my current identity because I just restarted everything a few months ago and restarting again just didn't seem that appealing to me. I'd still say "make new accounts" for anyone else though, because yeah, creeps like to creep.

Takoluka
Jun 26, 2009

Don't look at me!




Something else to consider is that you absolutely don't need to be a streamer to be a Vtuber. You can do traditional LPs with edits, you can do video essays, or you can do TikToks. Streaming is big for capital reasons; you get donations directly in real-time, and it adds up quickly. But if that's not your jam, it's not like you can't be Vtuber dril or a YT shitposter. It's not guaranteed success at all, and you're not likely to hit it big, but you might! Some people are really funny and don't need to stream to show that.

Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

Milk's on them.




Which is exactly why I say you should nail down your content first

nielsm
Jun 1, 2009




Fallen Rib

What I've seen several small vtubers do, both indie and small agency affiliated, is make a 90 second self introduction video, possibly as a song. Spend some time on editing to make some catchy visuals, and avoid all the fails.

nielsm fucked around with this message at 18:12 on Apr 20, 2021

Takoluka
Jun 26, 2009

Don't look at me!




Pollyanna posted:

Which is exactly why I say you should nail down your content first

You're not wrong! But I also think that ideas and goals might evolve and change for some creators, while others might work better being tossed into the deep end and figuring it out from there. It varies.

I remember when Calli got a lot of flak for her diss track, because while it wasn't the intention, it felt like an indie celebrity getting picked up by a major label and then dropping a smash hit telling aspiring Soundcloud artists that their mixtapes aren't poo poo. She's really abrasive in character, so it rubbed a lot of people the wrong way.

Making content is easier said than done for some people due to all sorts of circumstances, and while there are plenty of "Debut TBA" types online that go nowhere, some people don't want to feel gatekept when all they want is a cute OC they might do something with later.

blossommirage
Nov 7, 2012



A really annoying thing I ran into with the idea of keeping identity poo poo separate is like. Having all your games on a certain steam account, PSN, whatever account. Like, if you're poor, you basically have to buy every game twice and it cuts what you can make pretty harshly.

Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

Milk's on them.




Yyyyyeah, thatís the real lovely part. Anonymity can be expensive, because most things do not assume youíll be anonymous.

Thatís partly why Iíve considered just streaming as myself, if I ever do.

Takoluka
Jun 26, 2009

Don't look at me!




You just have to keep the games installed on the original account and then give the new account permissions to play it, at least for Steam. For PSN and the like, it's just having all the accounts on the same system but being careful to not show your other account name or whatever, which isn't bad.

u sp33k l33t br0
Sep 12, 2007

Who Doesn't Like Intercourse?


Soiled Meat

Useful Vtubing site
https://holodex.net/home

blossommirage
Nov 7, 2012



Takoluka posted:

You just have to keep the games installed on the original account and then give the new account permissions to play it, at least for Steam. For PSN and the like, it's just having all the accounts on the same system but being careful to not show your other account name or whatever, which isn't bad.

Wait, can you do that with Steam? I know being careful is the case with PSN, but wow. I'll have to check that out, thank you!

Tsilkani
Jul 28, 2013



blossommirage posted:

Wait, can you do that with Steam? I know being careful is the case with PSN, but wow. I'll have to check that out, thank you!

Yeah, in Steam settings there's a Family tab that lets you set up sharing with other people on an authorized computer.

EDIT: Y'know, I've got a moment, I'll go through the process.

So you'll need your primary Steam account, and a streamer Steam account. Log into Steam with your streamer account at least once, and then go back into your main account. Click on Steam in the upper left and choose Settings. The second option on the list should be Family. You check the box that says 'Authorize Library Sharing on this computer' and then it will show you a list of other users who have logged into Steam on your computer, and you can just check the 'Share' box next to the right username. Now you can log back into the streamer account and you'll see everything from your main account available. Ta-da!

Tsilkani fucked around with this message at 23:19 on Apr 20, 2021

Takoluka
Jun 26, 2009

Don't look at me!




if you're thinking of becoming a vtuber

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ixYfrn2AdL0

Lily Catts
Oct 17, 2012

Show me the way to you
(Heavy Metal)


I will watch this thread with great interest.

(Currenrly shopping around for VRoid commissions)

Sundae
Dec 1, 2005

Wheeeeeee!




Lily Catts posted:

I will watch this thread with great interest.

(Currenrly shopping around for VRoid commissions)

ArgamaWitch on Twitter and Etsy. Sheís really good. You can also approximate a look using items off Booth if you want to get started without commissioning anything expensive first.

Vizuyos
Jun 17, 2020

Thank U for reading

If you hated it...
FUCK U and never come back


Pollyanna posted:

Also, like...Vtubing has exploded in popularity and the market is supersaturated by now. You have to be really unique to capture peopleís attention. People were fascinated by Vtubers cause there was almost nothing like it before. Now, poo poo, throw a stone and youíll hit one. Itís the same deal that happened with steaming and youtubing in general.

This is why I highly discourage Vtubers from doing debut streams if they arenít already in Hololive. Nobodyís excited for someone who doesnít meaningfully exist yet. As a content creator, your job is to create content, and thatís the first thing you should do! Donít obsess over a Live2D model or a character concept or putting a group together or gaining 10k Twitter followers or some bullshit. That comes later.

I think a debut stream is important in that it gives potential viewers an easy entry point to learn who you are and why they should watch you, and debuts get a level of hype and interest that's worth it. You should absolutely be streaming and making stuff before your "debut stream", of course - treat the debut stream as a marketing thing rather than your firstest stream ever. The important part, in my opinion, is to make it a shorter stream that's laser-focused on what sets you apart and what kind of content you do (ideally, showcasing some content you've already done), instead of spending an hour going over your character lore in mind-numbing detail or talking about your favorite foods. Even the Hololive talents with a captive audience struggle to fill an hour of debut time; for an indie, it probably shouldn't be too much more than an elevator pitch and a demonstration of the kind of content you can offer.

Millennium Cyborg
Mar 2, 2021

CG cyborg from the year 2000


In order to convince myself to actually start streaming before I had everything I need for a perfect debut, I told myself I would do some pre-debut streams. But before a real pre-debut, there are still some things I need to finish, and I can't wait any more to get started. With that in mind I hope you'll join me at my pre-pre-debut, as I introduce myself and noodle about with some assets live:

https://twitter.com/y2k_cyborg/status/1384977741276188674

My whole aesthetic is inspired by the y2k era, Reboot, rave flyers, CG and all that. I don't have any major talents, but I do enjoy messing around with a bunch of creative tools and I also have a massive list of games I want to stream in genres I haven't seen many vtubers cover.

Edit: I should probably include a link to my channel shouldn't I.

Millennium Cyborg fucked around with this message at 21:42 on Apr 21, 2021

Vizuyos
Jun 17, 2020

Thank U for reading

If you hated it...
FUCK U and never come back


i made a thing in VTube Studio

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1P3bk54MF4Y

It has an item system where you can import images into the viewer, and it also has the ability to stick them to your avatar so they move with it. People mostly use that attachment functionality for stuff like hats, but I'm a Vtuber with no legs and a robot backstory that gives me an excuse to stick all sorts of dumb crap on the bottom half

I'm in no rush to get a full-body made, because I'm sure I wouldn't think of dumb shitpost stuff like this if I didn't have that half-body limitation to work around

Sally
Jan 9, 2007


Don't post Small Dash!


What most excites me about Vtube is that my dream of becoming Dash Render could finally become a reality... Imagine LPing Shadows of the Empire as the man the myth the legend Dash.

Sundae
Dec 1, 2005

Wheeeeeee!




Vizuyos posted:

i made a thing in VTube Studio

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1P3bk54MF4Y

It has an item system where you can import images into the viewer, and it also has the ability to stick them to your avatar so they move with it. People mostly use that attachment functionality for stuff like hats, but I'm a Vtuber with no legs and a robot backstory that gives me an excuse to stick all sorts of dumb crap on the bottom half

I'm in no rush to get a full-body made, because I'm sure I wouldn't think of dumb shitpost stuff like this if I didn't have that half-body limitation to work around

That's a great idea for the VTS attachments system. Awesome.

I'm hoping that PrPrLive eventually rolls out something like that, since VTS Steam edition is still buggy as gently caress, and the only modern phone I have is a work phone so at the idea of putting VTS on that.

Waffleman_
Jan 20, 2011



Thread is tempting me to finally mess around in Vroid a bit

Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

Milk's on them.




Dammit this is making me want to stream.

Kaboom Dragoon
May 7, 2010

The greatest of feasts



Sally posted:

What most excites me about Vtube is that my dream of becoming Dash Render could finally become a reality... Imagine LPing Shadows of the Empire as the man the myth the legend Dash.

I don't want this to be taken as mod sass, but... do you really think anyone could live up to that level of greatness?

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Waffleman_
Jan 20, 2011



Could you even render Rendar?

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