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Open the undoubtedly magic wardrobe.
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May 9, 2021 04:05
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Use the crystal club on the mirror Didn't we have a special reference deduction thing for that? Pretty sure there was a hint earlier about Marr having a pocket dimension accessible through a mirror, that could only be destroyed by the crystal club.
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May 9, 2021 04:08
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BraveLittleToaster posted:Open the undoubtedly magic wardrobe. Reference 59 posted:As well as the naval uniforms, you find civilian clothes and dress for special occasions. But there is nothing unusual or anything which could provide a clue as to Marr's whereabouts. Your frustration grows. Your heavy fist smashes into the wardrobe, splintering its timbers. The hanging clothes fall in a pile on the floor and from the back of the wardrobe, a round metal shield rolls fowards and drops to a wobbling spin on the floor. You stoop to get a look at it. Arcvasti posted:Use the crystal club on the mirror We do have that information! We got it from 192: Reference 192 posted:"Biography of Z. Marr, page ninety three: ... thus came Marr to abandon the physical world and take refuge in his own. A strange netherworld which occupies no space in the world we mortals know. A world of illusion in which where he appears to be he is not. And a world in which those searching for him would instead find themselves. He has but one weakness in his new world and that is a crystal club which may be used to destroy forever the gateway between our world and his." If at some time in the future you believe you have located the entrance to Marr's netherworld, deduct the page number above from the reference you are on at the time and turn to this reference. If you are correct, you will meet the necromancer. For having the good fortune to find this parchment, you may restore your LUCK score to its Initial level. Note: you need to subtract 93, not 192, to get to the right place. (I've underlined why.) But let's see one more bad end first... Reference 370 posted:You climb up the staircase and try the hatch at the top. It is open and you climb through. But instead of entering another room, you find yourself on a secluded part of the ship - evidently the captain's private deck. You look around for another hiding-place, but there is none to be found, and soon you are faced with an angry hoard of Orcs and Hobgoblins who have silently followed you onto the deck. You will get to meet Zharradan Marr all right, but as his prisoner. And when he has finished tormenting you for his pleasure, you will remain aboard the Galleykeep as his slave for the rest of your days. Bad End #7: Trapped like a rat, then tortured like a simile. Reference 329 posted:At last the pieces of the puzzle fit together. You step up to the mirror and stare into the glass. You are looking not at your own image, but deeper. Within seconds your uncertainty disappears, as the reflection of your own shape begins to fade and something gradually takes its place. From the depths of the misty netherworld which the necromancer now makes his sanctuary, the awesome form of Zharradan Marr takes shape before you! Reference 121 posted:The necromancer continues: "I have been developing marrangha for many years now. Previously, my successes have been limited to vermin - rats to Jib-Jibs, mice to Graunies, and the like. You and your colleagues were my first successes with higher animals. Never before had I managed to transmute a human. And into such a fine creature, as you will doubtless agree." You are shocked into a stunned silence. A human! And what of these colleagues that Marr is speaking of? Reference 199 posted:Marr's eyes open wider and he leans forward. His head protrudes from the mirror as if it were a pool of water, held on to the wall by magic. "Now I can help you, but you must give me the Half-Orc's knapsack!" What can he want with Grog's knapsack? It contains only a few of the creature's possessions and a box... Of course! The box! You now remember that you have seen similar boxes twice before. Once just before you found you were developing control of your destiny and again just before you started to be able to understand the languages of other creatures. Perhaps this box is what he is after. Marr holds his hand out and it too emerges from the mirror into the room.
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May 9, 2021 04:16
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Finders keepers, don't give him the box.
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May 9, 2021 04:20
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yeah sure dude, why not?
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May 9, 2021 04:45
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I always trust malevolent Necromancers.
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May 9, 2021 05:03
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As the closest thing to a father we have as a Creature of Havoc, I feel we can trust him.
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May 9, 2021 05:58
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Sure he may be responsible for us being turned into some sort of Lizardman and we may have preferred that to serving under him in a past life, and he's even responsible for taking over our place and turning one of our uh former acquaintances/friends into a delicious hobbit (like we weren't even self-aware at that point, saying he's responsible for us cannibalizing our friend is just rude) but being a Creature of Havoc has been pretty sweet and we have never ever ever gotten hosed over for being overly trusting of evil sorts yet. Give him the box. What's the worst that could happen?
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May 9, 2021 16:20
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BraveLittleToaster posted:Finders keepers, don't give him the box. Reference 133 posted:Marr's eyes open wide. "But you may not refuse!" His anger is mounting. "For I am your creator! You may not defy me. Do you not think that, if my power is sufficient to create you, it is also sufficient to punish you? Very well. I give you a glimps of the living Hell I may make you suffer." His eyes roll backwards and he mumbles a few incomprehensible words, pointing his hands out of the mirror at you. You wait apprehensively to see what happens. Did you bathe in the magical Elven Dust? If so, turn to 417. If not, turn to 16. Pff. Bathing in Elven Dust? That would have required us to listen to the Chattermatter, even for a moment! We're not stupid. Reference 16 posted:The spell begins to take effect. Your body feels as if each of its joints is being bent in a wrong direction! You drop to the floor and writhe about, wailing pitifully, but there is no escape from the agony that the necromancer is inflicting on you. Invisible knives are being plunged into your chest and each is being made to scrape slowly against the bones of your ribs. You hold up your hand for mercy and Marr releases the spell. Gasping in horror, in awe of the wizard's power, you take the knapsack and slowly hold it out towards him. He snatches it from you. Turn to 74. Maybe we should have been a little stupid? Ignatius M. Meen posted:Sure he may be responsible for us being turned into some sort of Lizardman and we may have preferred that to serving under him in a past life, and he's even responsible for taking over our place and turning one of our uh former acquaintances/friends into a delicious hobbit (like we weren't even self-aware at that point, saying he's responsible for us cannibalizing our friend is just rude) but being a Creature of Havoc has been pretty sweet and we have never ever ever gotten hosed over for being overly trusting of evil sorts yet. Give him the box. What's the worst that could happen? Reference 74 posted:You hand the knapsack to Zharradan Marr. "That's right!" he smiles. "Now I shall keep my side of the bargain. You have sought me out and found me, overcoming all opposition. That shows resourcefulness and intelligence. You are a powerful creature, and you have had training in leadership, did you but know it. Do you enjoy the excitement of battle?" You nod. "Then so be it. You shall become my Commander-in-Chief. Will you serve me?" The prospect of a life of conquest and adventure does indeed excite you. "Very well, then," says Marr. "You shall start duties immediately. Your first task is to execute your predecessor, Vallaska Roue. Not only has he failed me in allowing you through to my private quarters, but he has so far failed to locate the Rainbow Pools. His usefulness is at an end. Once Roue is dead, you shall have command of the Galleykeep, under my orders!" Bad End (?) #8: At least this time we weren't mind-controlled into serving Zharradan Marr! Okay. This time, we get the Elven Dust. Reference 417 posted:Marr casts his spell, but it has no effect. A startled look appears on his face and he searches his memory for a way you could be immune to his magic. "Of course," he nods finally. "The Chattermatter failed to entice you. That incompetent fool Hannicus! His instructions were to keep the Elven Dust walled in. Nevertheless, I am sure that your little act of defiance will be reconsidered in view of the riches I may offer you..." But you have other ideas. It is now your turn to attack, and you have decided on your target. You will not go for the necromancer himself, but for his mirror. If you have a crystal club, turn to 28. Otherwise turn to 152. Now, if we didn't have the crystal club at this point... Reference 152 posted:You step forward and swing your fist hard into the glass. The sound of the impact echoes around the room. But, rather than the shattering sound you were expecting, the noise is a deep rumbling, as the mirror vibrates. "Fool!" screams Zharradan Marr. "Did you really think the portal between my world and yours would be so easy to destroy? Why, if that were so, I would be at the mercy of a simple accident - or even rough weather!" He is right: it would indeed have been foolish of him to be left so vulnerable. "My mirror cannot be harmed; you waste your time and mine. I can see you have no desire to join me. But our futures are intertwined. If you will not consider yourself my friend, then you must become my enemy!" The image of Marr fades from the reflection and your own begins to reappear. You react quickly in frustration, and prepare to try another blow, but this time with all your might. And 302 is death by hobgoblins. But of course we have the club... Reference 28 posted:If you picked up a crystal club during your adventure, you will have been given a reference number to turn to should you wish to use it. Do not turn to this number now, but instead add it to the number of this reference. Turn to the reference corresponding to this total. Easy. We just add 28 to... Uh. What was it again?
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May 9, 2021 18:17
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I think it was 333. So that would be... 361?
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May 9, 2021 18:21
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Stabbey_the_Clown posted:I think it was 333. So that would be... 361? Reference 361 posted:You pick up your club and step towards the mirror. When Zharradan Marr sees your weapon, his confident manner becomes a little nervous. "So, my offspring of marrangha," he says, though perhaps a little too eagerly. "You choose to turn against your creator. Do not be hasty. Let me first tell you of my plans for us. Whatever future you wish, it can be achieved." Turn to 460. Reference 460 posted:"Our partnership will be supreme in Allansia. Together we shall rule. If it is riches you desire, then you shall have all the wealth you can use. If your lust is for power, then I shall give you western Allansia as your own empire." His words are spilling out with mounting anxiety. But you are not listening. Instead you are preparing to swing your club. "Do I waste my words?" he screams. "Then think on this. If I should be lost, how will you regain your former self? Will you be content to remain a beast for the rest of your days, constantly feared, hated and even hunted by your own kind?" It's fine. I'm sure they won't burst into Marr's quarters, find some unfamiliar human with a bleeding foot next to the shards of Marr's mirror portal, and hurl him over the side. They definitely won't conspire to secretly murder us to get revenge. It's fine. So how much of a Creature of Havoc were we, at the end of the day? Well, aside from various acts of violence in self-defense, we did kill an adventuring party that would have fled if we hadn't attacked, that Gaston-esque villager beating Grog (we didn't have to kill him to rescue Grog), and those Brigands attacking "Whiteleaf" (who weren't trying to kill him, just beat him up). We stormed the Galleykeep and murdered a couple of Goblins; though I doubt anyone is shedding tears over them, that was an act of murder, not self-defense. We robbed a blind man and left him to die in the dungeons. We crushed an innocent mouse, which was an accident, but still, we should feel bad. Oh, and although nowhere on the winning path are we required to eat sapient flesh of our own free will, we did eat our former chef before we got it. So, um, maybe brush your teeth before you go to bed.
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May 9, 2021 18:26
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Hold on, we can't speak coherent sentences. How exactly did we manage to question Whiteleaf about the Galleykeep earlier? Sign language?
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May 9, 2021 19:10
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Twiler posted:Hold on, we can't speak coherent sentences. That's a good question. I noted a few other places where we communicated with people a little more easily than it seemed we ought to be, including one spot where apparently someone can tell whether or not we understand them without us doing anything at all. Also, apparently we do have a language other than Common, as the Chattermatter is able to communicate with us even if we don't have the gift of tongues. We just never use it, either because we can't or because it's the only one who uses it. Would there be any interest in me grabbing some randomness from Random.org and using it to run a whole ton of runs through the book, see if we can get a more accurate number for chances of success? For that matter, does anyone have any questions or comments or anything? We're at the end of the LP unless anyone has any requests.
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May 9, 2021 20:12
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Well, this was certainly a gamebook... of sorts. And of course it leaves off on a cliffhanger. Punishing and dangerous and full of a medley of deaths. Speaking of which, are there any we missed at all?FredMSloniker posted:Would there be any interest in me grabbing some randomness from Random.org and using it to run a whole ton of runs through the book, see if we can get a more accurate number for chances of success?
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May 9, 2021 20:34
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That was something, weird and full of nasty moves but neat to see for all that. Thanks for showing it off!FredMSloniker posted:Would there be any interest in me grabbing some randomness from Random.org and using it to run a whole ton of runs through the book, see if we can get a more accurate number for chances of success? Sure, why not? I'll bet it's not more than 15% let alone 10% all told trying to play 'fairly' on all the dice checks.
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May 9, 2021 20:43
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dang, what a weird book. i absolutely would not have enjoyed playing through it myself (so many blind choices! so many extended dead-man-walking scenarios! sheesh), but it was still very interesting and i'm glad to have experienced it! thanks for running this! 
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May 9, 2021 21:30
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Does the ending feel like a massive anti-climax to anyone else? Like, it's neat that we defeated him at all, but.... Iunno.
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May 9, 2021 21:36
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I'm surprised we never used the third vapour when the whole book seemed to be leading up to that
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May 9, 2021 22:53
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I think it's implied that most of the rest of your crew will also revert, and you'll end up in charge of the Galleykeep again from that. Anyways, this was a fairly interesting book, with some cool mechanics but also some major issues. It felt like it kind of lost steam after escaping the caves too.
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May 9, 2021 23:36
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The chance of success is 0%. That is way too long for a dead man walking scenario.
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May 9, 2021 23:46
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Arcvasti posted:I think it's implied that most of the rest of your crew will also revert, and you'll end up in charge of the Galleykeep again from that. What about Dr. Skeleton though? I've got a feeling he's like that way because he wants to be that way. Maybe just...Nobody opens that door ever again.
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May 10, 2021 00:47
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Arzaac posted:What about Dr. Skeleton though? I've got a feeling he's like that way because he wants to be that way. Well, he may want to be that way, but if he got transmuted the same way we were, he's going to lose that magical necromantic edge he's got currently. The real problems are a) the Blood Orc with the cursed cloak, if he was transmuted then he'll be less dangerous as a human but still crazed from hunger; b) the guy who burned our eyes out when we killed him; and c) the weather mage, who isn't necessarily unreasonable but who isn't necessarily trustworthy either (we didn't exactly ask if he particularly liked or cared about who was in charge for instance, he acted pretty true neutral but that might have only been because we were just another stupid brutish creature to him at the time and not, say, either the current or former owner/captain of the ship).
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May 10, 2021 01:41
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Ignatius M. Meen posted:Sure, why not? I'll bet it's not more than 15% let alone 10% all told trying to play 'fairly' on all the dice checks. I've already run a million runs, as I mentioned earlier in the thread: FredMSloniker posted:After a million runs through the book, we've got an average success rate of about 25.8%. Not a single run succeeded with minimum stats; with maximum stats, the success rate was about 81.5%. I'm proposing three things, in increasing order of difficulty for me:
If you have any other numbers you want run, just ask. BraveLittleToaster posted:Well, this was certainly a gamebook... of sorts. And of course it leaves off on a cliffhanger. Punishing and dangerous and full of a medley of deaths. Speaking of which, are there any we missed at all? To my knowledge, I've shown almost every reference (I left out one or two on the grounds that they were almost identical to references we'd seen), including all of the death references. If someone sees evidence to the contrary, let me know, and I'll correct the error. Arcvasti posted:Anyways, this was a fairly interesting book, with some cool mechanics but also some major issues. It felt like it kind of lost steam after escaping the caves too. I think the problem we ran into after getting out of the caves was two-fold. In the caves, we had a simple objective: get out of the caves. It was by no means clear how, but we knew what we wanted. Then we get out, and immediately have a blind choice with only a one in three chance of leading to the actual plot. Miss that, and we can wander around for a long time before hitting some dead end or other, trying to figure out where we ultimately went wrong. Even once we get our actual quest, though, it's incredibly difficult to work out the One True Path. Immediately after getting the quest, we have a second blind choice with a three in four chance of missing vital items. There are large chunks of the book that are post-caves but which are doom to visit - doing anything in Coven even though visiting it is essential to victory, the training camp (which you're encouraged to go to by the Rhino-Man's message), and so on - and many ways to reach points on the winning path without the necessary items or knowledge to win. The caves are a bit more linear, and thus easier to work out. This also contributes to the feeling of rushing to the finale - we're skipping a lot more of the post-cave references than cave references. I think a big (though by no means the biggest) problem with the book is the combat system, and the randomness in general. We have to get through twelve fights to beat the book; of the twelve, one is on a time limit and six are against more than one opponent at once. We have to chew through a total of 137 STAMINA with our 14 to 24 STAMINA and limited opportunities to heal. Plus, if we get poor rolls at the beginning of the adventure (a 5/18 chance), we fight the Clawbeast, which is SKILL 9 and STAMINA 14 all by itself, then face a flat 50-50 chance of failure. Then there are the various moments where you have to Test your Luck (and, once, Test your Skill) to avoid either instant or inevitable death. There's a reason that everybody who knows anything about the Lone Wolf books takes Curing as one of their initial Kai Disciplines, and those are kinder in every way.
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May 10, 2021 06:45
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I'd like to see the odds of us surviving without cannibalism.
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May 10, 2021 13:27
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I had this one and never made it out of the caves, it's been a real ride learning the whole story. I never even knew about the secret passages revealed by the amulet! And yeah, ending feels a bit anticlimactic. Is anyone else disappointed we didn't stay a creature of havoc for ever?
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May 10, 2021 17:13
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Leraika posted:I'd like to see the odds of us surviving without cannibalism. I'm curious about this one, too. Is a pacifist run even possible?
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May 10, 2021 22:09
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Leraika posted:I'd like to see the odds of us surviving without cannibalism. Sure thing. There are only two opportunities for cannibalism once we have our free will (or, rather, choosing to cannibalize anywhere else takes us off the winning path): eating the bodies of the adventurers we loot the pendant from, and eating the human who was killed by the Manic Beast. The former gives us 4 STAMINA; the latter gives us a full heal if we drink the green potion he carries. However, eating the Manic Beast instead doesn't count (I think) as cannibalism, and we get 4 STAMINA for that, so it's not a complete loss. I ran a million runs as both cannibal and non-cannibal. On average, cannibalism led to a 25.74% success rate, while abstaining lead to a 21.89% success rate. placid saviour posted:I'm curious about this one, too. Is a pacifist run even possible? No. As I mentioned, there are twelve required fights in the book:
e: after another million runs with the corrected code, cannibalism gives a 25.35% success rate, while avoiding cannibalism gives a 21.34% success rate. Those numbers are lower (as expected), but not much lower, so the missed rule didn't do too much damage. FredMSloniker fucked around with this message at 01:39 on May 11, 2021 |
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May 10, 2021 23:35
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My take-away from this is that the Fighting Fantasy games are so ridiculous with its unfair instant-death and such to disguise the fact that the books are honestly pretty short.
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May 11, 2021 06:01
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IIRC other books in the series have higher averages of SKILL among their enemies. At least one has you fight a Skill 12 enemy (a fantasy T-rex, I think it was). Some of them also have less blind-choices, find-the-plot and/or dead-man-walking bullshit.
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May 11, 2021 07:00
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Keldulas posted:My take-away from this is that the Fighting Fantasy games are so ridiculous with its unfair instant-death and such to disguise the fact that the books are honestly pretty short. Half dozen of that and six of being unable to properly write a book, much less a CYOA one. Unfair instant death is one thing, but this specific one is just rife with PICK LEFT PICK RIGHT where one puts you into a 50 reference long dead man walking scenario and the other opens up 5 more such gates, half of which mercifully kill you in 2-3 references. TitanG fucked around with this message at 15:30 on May 11, 2021 |
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May 11, 2021 15:00
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So, anything you guys would like to see before I stick a fork in this LP and call it done? Anything you'd like to see in a future LP, if I do another gamebook? Things I could do better, things I didn't do?
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May 11, 2021 20:54
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I thought it'd be interesting ranking the various ways there are to die along the winning path by how likely they are to actually kill you. In the process, I found and gished another bug in the solver - one that turned out to cover up quite a few deaths! I ran another million results with that bug squashed and staying away from cannibalism. Of those million runs, the top three results were:
The three least likely ways to die were:
With that, I think I'm officially done with this LP. I hope you enjoyed yourselves, and I hope to see you again in some future LP!
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May 12, 2021 05:11
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This is all really interesting. Thanks for LPing!
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May 13, 2021 14:00
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I really loved this LP, both the presentation and the numeric breakdowns. Would love to see this happen to some more Fighting Fantasy. How about Starship Traveller?
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May 14, 2021 23:54
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Just wanted to chime in and say I really enjoyed this LP. What an interesting, strange CYOA book. Very glad to have been able to quickly read through it rather than having to suffer through the gamebook myself! Edit to add: Personally, as a stats nerd, I also enjoyed seeing the probabilities and such.
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May 17, 2021 01:07
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Really great LP of a game that hated our collective guts.
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May 17, 2021 01:52
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