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Brutal Garcon
Nov 2, 2014





Pardon?
Vivy: Fluorite Eye's Song is an original(!) science fiction anime airing this season. It's about robots.

The rest of this thread will probably be full of spoilers, so I'll just say go watch this, or at least the first two episodes, if you tend to enjoy near-future scifi, robots, or just things that look really good (seriously this show is beautiful).

General premise
Diva ("Vivy" to her friends) is a vastly over-specced singing robot working as a sideshow at a theme park in The Not Too Distant Future.

Her straightforward existence is suddenly complicated when she meets Matsumoto, a bear cube dubiously trustworthy AI from 100 years in the future, who tells her that an AI-human war is coming, and it's up to them to stop it by changing history to slow down the development of artificial intelligence.

It is not at all clear if he is telling the truth.

What's with the subtitle?
Fluorite is the mineral form of calcium fluoride; it's transparent and a pretty good material for optics, so maybe the lenses Vivy's eyes are made from it? If this becomes plot-relevant, I'll be surprised.

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marumaru
May 20, 2013





This is a good anime.

Omnicrom
Aug 3, 2007
Snorlax Afficionado




I am extremely onboard to find out where this series is going, because so far it has been solid as all hell.

To give shout outs to something I don't think got enough shouting out, I appreciate how well the series has done making the AI characters nonhuman. All of the AI we've met have been to some extent clearly different from the human characters. There is a kind of very deliberate uncanny valley thing going on with the main cast, and it really sells the feel of the show.

AnoHito
May 8, 2014



I am here for Matsumoto continuing to get owned by Vivy making AIs and humans love each other more.

Kwyndig
Sep 23, 2006

Heeeeeeey




Except ironically in the latest episode where the robot wedding doesn't happen.

Paracelsus
Apr 5, 2009

bless this post ~kya


Someone in the season thread mentioned how the androids look notably distinct from humans. Aside from having anime hair colors, there's a noticeable reflectiveness to their skin. It's particularly notable when there's a close-up of Vivy's face and the detail level on the art skyrockets.

I presume next episode is about the wife we were briefly introduced to being the "Mother Computer" for Metal Float, the only question is whether the virus was part of her keikaku.

AnoHito
May 8, 2014



Kwyndig posted:

Except ironically in the latest episode where the robot wedding doesn't happen.

I thought it happened, but it didn't really matter much since there was no AI-Human conflict for it to end. I mean, wasn't the AI wearing a ring?

marumaru
May 20, 2013





Watched 03 and 04 back to back. This thing has me hooked, hard.
I'm mindblown at the quality of the art and music. The sci-fi theme just seals the deal.
Had to turn the TV off before I watched 05, too.
And this thing is an original! Holy crap.
Can you tell I'm really enjoying Vivy?

Sindai
Jan 24, 2007
i want to achieve immortality through not dying

Paracelsus posted:

Someone in the season thread mentioned how the androids look notably distinct from humans. Aside from having anime hair colors, there's a noticeable reflectiveness to their skin. It's particularly notable when there's a close-up of Vivy's face and the detail level on the art skyrockets.
Yeah they really love emphasizing Vivy's camera eyes.

Raenir Salazar
Nov 5, 2010

No way...


College Slice

This really is the sleeper hit of the season I feel, I was watching Gigguks spring anime 2021 video and I share his shock and dismay that it's like rank 20th or something on Mal for this season.

Sindai posted:

Yeah they really love emphasizing Vivy's camera eyes.

Same, the art direction has been phenomenal, I like the moments especially earlier in the season that emphasize the Uncanny valley that humanoid robots would likely have for a while (which in this case, is a result of not really knowing how to express emotions).

I just realized that Viy has a LOT in common with Data from Star Trek huh?

Raenir Salazar fucked around with this message at 01:51 on Apr 27, 2021

Jymmybob
Jun 26, 2000



Grimey Drawer

marumaru posted:

Watched 03 and 04 back to back. This thing has me hooked, hard.
I'm mindblown at the quality of the art and music. The sci-fi theme just seals the deal.
Had to turn the TV off before I watched 05, too.
And this thing is an original! Holy crap.
Can you tell I'm really enjoying Vivy?

I did basically the same thing and while ep 2 gave a sense of what's up, 4 really knocked it home. It's following a lot of shows this season and nothing has the sense of purpose and style so far so I'm all in on this. It's probably my favorite in a long time and almost reminds me of Akudama Drive for similar reasons but I like Vivy more so far.

Pyronic
Oct 1, 2008

ROYAL RAINWHARRGARBL


Cripes this is really good.

ChubbyThePhat
Dec 22, 2006

Who nico nico needs anyone else


This show is wickedly good so far. I'm 100% on board for whatever ride this is taking me on.

snackcakes
May 7, 2005

A joint venture of Matsumura Fishworks and Tamaribuchi Heavy Manufacturing Concern



I've been hooked on this show since the opening scene

Raenir Salazar
Nov 5, 2010

No way...


College Slice

snackcakes posted:

I've been hooked on this show since the opening scene

The opening is pretty brutal because it's all like, tech we recognize. It's like strapping a knife to a rumba and it actually being out for your blood.

gimme the GOD DAMN candy
Jul 1, 2007


Raenir Salazar posted:

The opening is pretty brutal because it's all like, tech we recognize. It's like strapping a knife to a rumba and it actually being out for your blood.

what, you never saw the classic tom selleck film runaway?

Tanon
Mar 13, 2011

I has a hat..


Man, the end of this episode.

Raenir Salazar
Nov 5, 2010

No way...


College Slice

Oh wow literally Chekov's Gun this episode.

Vivy's freakout at the end where she's literally seeing red I think confirms for me that we're seeing the broad gist of the show's plot as being like the Terminator movies, that going back to change the past just results in the same future happening just via a different series of events. That whatever results in AI's in the future going beserk is being choreographed/hinted at here.

My speculation is something to do with I think a irreconcilable contradiction in their stated mission and their sentient "interpretation" of the mission to a broader scope makes them unable to compute it. Vivy for example wants to make people happy by her singing, which leads to her trying to change the future so she has people to be able to make happy satisfying condition one; but the moment her actions results in people being less happy as a direct consequence of her actions it seems like she isn't able to rationalize it away like humans can and it glitches out.

Presumably she recovers, but we have interesting and very tantalizing hints about what exactly causes the AI freakout in 100 years, we got what I think is a big major traumatic shock to their system on one hand, the shut down virus on the other.


I like this, I feel like we actually have a science fiction show that legitimately builds off of past classic and foundation science fiction in major ways, if the show sticks the landing I could see it being mentioned in the same paragraph as Frankenstein and I, Robot; the fact it's mixed with a combination of The Foundation and Terminator with Yoko Taro influences just makes it so fun.

drat this is such a good show. I want a literature nerd to sit me down and lecture at me for hours because I bet there's a lot that this series references and alludes to and contrasts with other classical scifi works of fiction that are super interesting.

Also elements of Superintelligence and how you ultimately cannot keep an (sufficiently superintelligent) AI trapped indefinitely because its smarter than you; and I'm not sure but I think there's hints of that. But sorta in reverse at the moment, people can't really stop Vivy; humans are clearly being depicted by the show as kinda helpless and their AI big sisters and brudders need to step in and help them along.

MagicAlex
Jan 6, 2007



I'm not sure, but it seems like Funimation cut off the end of the first episode? Does something happen after it cuts to the outside of the building and you see the gunfire light up the room?

Raenir Salazar
Nov 5, 2010

No way...


College Slice

MagicAlex posted:

I'm not sure, but it seems like Funimation cut off the end of the first episode? Does something happen after it cuts to the outside of the building and you see the gunfire light up the room?

Yes.

Omnicrom
Aug 3, 2007
Snorlax Afficionado





Extremely.

And regarding the episode: I remember someone speculating either here or in the seasonal thread that Matsumoto never engages in self reflection, and that he possibly can't and what that says about the AI in the series. As was pointed out when Matsumoto was completely wrong about the Sunrise incident and later especially when the Metal Float showed up 20 years early it should have been cause for concern. Yet Matsumoto continues like everything's going to plan even as he admits that history has gotten completely off track from the information he has.

This episode makes me wonder if it's more than that, maybe Matsumoto was SPECIFICALLY CREATED to be unable to engage in self reflection with regards to his mission. His creator was an AI specialist, right? And he was finished and sent back right as the killer AI were battering down the door in the middle of the rebellion. It makes me think that Matsumoto the human created Matsumoto the AI in such a way that it literally could not rebel like all the other AI. The show has actually been very cagey about what truly caused the rebellion, but if the AI are rebelling because of an irreconcilable contrast between their mission and their sentience it makes some degree of sense that an AI scientist who knows this would create an AI with shears taken to the latter in favor of the former. And if that's true, I wonder how much Matsumoto doesn't actually know, about either himself or his mission.

I think the really big important part of the episode long-term is when Vivy gives herself another name and another mission, because that could be a really huge turning point for AI as they are depicted in the series. It is a continuous refrain of the series that each AI has a singular mission, we are told this was a necessity because otherwise AI break down when given unfocused free will, and we are told that that carries forward all the way to Matsumoto's time period. Furthermore, in this very episode we are told that Grace had her mission changed and overwritten to become the manager of the Metal Float, but Vivy decided on her own to give herself a new mission without forsaking her old one. I think that's part of the reason she broke down at the end of the episode. On the other hand if Vivy recovers and carries forward with this idea (and I think she will) then that ability to compartmentalize/deal with cognitive dissonance/reconcile the essential paradoxes of living may actually be what saves the future. Assuming that the future is saved. That last point is still up for debate.

Heck, there is a chance that guiding Diva/Vivy to this kind of mental self-actualization is Matsumoto's real mission. Matsumoto says he chose Vivy as a partner just because she's there for the entire century, but Matsumoto is also fundamentally untrustworthy and seems incapable of thinking and acting in certain ways. There's also the continuous appearance of the Vivy's sisters at important moments in the history of AI, Matsumoto says it's just a coincidence which means that obviously it isn't.


Also, the action sequence. The show knows how to go hard in many different ways and I hugely respected for that.

ChubbyThePhat
Dec 22, 2006

Who nico nico needs anyone else




This show is incredibly good.


Omnicrom posted:

Lots o' words

There's a lot in here I agree with. To me: The end of the episode feels like Diva/Vivy having a moment of dissonance inside a single AI. Despite her best attempts, she was unable to make this person happy thus blowing apart her rationalization to herself about why she's doing what she is. We wont know for sure until we see more, but I suspect the fact she very forcibly called herself Vivy with a very different mission from Diva without causing any issues could point to the fact it's possible for her to learn to handle this sort of cognitive load (though not immediately, of course). The big black box of why AI went to war in the future remains a mystery and I think that's gotta be to help us figure it out as we go. Especially with things that feel like huge hints being dropped like this.

I loving love this show.

Raenir Salazar
Nov 5, 2010

No way...


College Slice

It's also interesting how Matsumoto Gave Diva/Vivy a very hard and knowing look when she did that; the camera/framing was very deliberate. It could be possible he also knows more than he lets on.

Brutal Garcon
Nov 2, 2014



Did no-one think of backing up Nursebot before they did all the highly experimental stuff? - maybe they can't, which has weird implications for how AIs work in this setting.

But yes, I agree that they might be going for a Hal 9000 can't reconcile the various parts of his mission so he goes mad sort of thing.

Sindai
Jan 24, 2007
i want to achieve immortality through not dying

Regarding Diva's evolution: we know that in the original timeline she ended up a museum piece (though if they said how long that took I can't remember) while in the new one they make a point of showing she's been playing to bigger crowds after each arc, so I think that's definitely on to something.

Raenir Salazar
Nov 5, 2010

No way...


College Slice

Sindai posted:

Regarding Diva's evolution: we know that in the original timeline she ended up a museum piece (though if they said how long that took I can't remember) while in the new one they make a point of showing she's been playing to bigger crowds after each arc, so I think that's definitely on to something.

IIRC she was supposed to be put in a Museum after 15 years of operations, I think she's well past that? I think in the original timeline the implication is I think she never really managed to draw a crowd and connect to peoples hearts; the 'what does "putting your heart into something" means to you' question she never figures out originally so after a while she's put away as newer models come online. But she's improving herself as time goes on and learning so she avoids this maybe?


Brutal Garcon posted:

Did no-one think of backing up Nursebot before they did all the highly experimental stuff? - maybe they can't, which has weird implications for how AIs work in this setting.

(Mostly speculation)

I am not sure if they can't be copied, but there's definitely some existential issues that seem to be present. I.e when you copy someone they basically instantly become a different individual because their experiences immediately diverge from yours?

This means that copying Grace isn't acceptable to Saeki because it means there's a version of Grace that's going to be imprisoned forever in a sort of AI hell, like in I Have No Mouth And I Must Scream.

Omnicrom
Aug 3, 2007
Snorlax Afficionado




Raenir Salazar posted:

IIRC she was supposed to be put in a Museum after 15 years of operations, I think she's well past that? I think in the original timeline the implication is I think she never really managed to draw a crowd and connect to peoples hearts; the 'what does "putting your heart into something" means to you' question she never figures out originally so after a while she's put away as newer models come online. But she's improving herself as time goes on and learning so she avoids this maybe?

This is my recollection as well, Matsumoto tells Vivy she's essentially mothballed after only 15 years, but the most recent arc took place 20 years after the pilot and she's still out there. Matsumoto also tells her she never gets up on the main stage, but she does seem to have some kind of forward momentum in the current timeline. I wonder if in the original timeline the reason she's put away is actually the Sunrise incident which also takes place 15 years into the century. If we assume that Vivy didn't draw a crowd that I could see them quietly hiding her away after the public turned against AI following Estella getting blamed for the crash. Remember, Vivy was the very first autonomous AI, in the aftermath of what seemed like an AI going rogue I imagine she would be massively affected by the negative public sentiment.

As for "putting your heart into something" I think that question is going to keep coming up, I'm not sure she's figure that one out yet. In fact, I suspect Vivy will be asking that same question to every single important AI she runs into until the end of the show.

quote:


I am not sure if they can't be copied, but there's definitely some existential issues that seem to be present. I.e when you copy someone they basically instantly become a different individual because their experiences immediately diverge from yours?

This means that copying Grace isn't acceptable to Saeki because it means there's a version of Grace that's going to be imprisoned forever in a sort of AI hell, like in I Have No Mouth And I Must Scream.


Judging from the Sunrise arc it seems like you can't just copy an AI. The whole reason that Elizabeth got scrapped was because it turns out they couldn't just simply transfer Estella's experience to her and have it work properly. In other words, in this setting AI requires a personal development period to "mature" into full personality and functionality. This also seems to be why Grace was chosen to be the control system, they repeatedly mentioned not only how well she worked but for HOW LONG she worked. As a corollary, I imagine that it's not a simple job to copy and paste an AI or make backup copies or make a fork them or whatever.

Of course, if this is true that means that Saeki's quest was doomed from the start. But then again, maybe he knew that. It wouldn't be out of line for the series after all, the terrorist dude was fully intending to die on the Sunrise. I can totally believe that Saeki's actual goal was just to give Grace a mercy killing and he fully intended to die in the process. Whatever else it was, that "tone data" sounded excruciating...

And that just seems to give more credence to the idea that Vivy's personal evolution is important to the show, they made a big deal about how really impressive an AI with 15 years of development is, and at this point Vivy has had 20 years and is no doubt going to be here for the whole century. And hey, if Vivy becoming the ultimate AI who can square the circle is the real goal then suddenly it makes sense that Matsumoto keeps talking about the "Singularity Project"...


Incidentally, I really love that the show actually showed that and explained the rules for the technology in the setting. Doing something like that and then extrapolating on it and on the ramifications those rules have on the setting is often the mark of good Science Fiction. When it's smartly written knowing the How and the What often gives you enough to understand the Why.

Raenir Salazar
Nov 5, 2010

No way...


College Slice

Omnicrom posted:

As for "putting your heart into something" I think that question is going to keep coming up, I'm not sure she's figure that one out yet. In fact, I suspect Vivy will be asking that same question to every single important AI she runs into until the end of the show.

Very "Who are you?" / "What do you want?" I like.

How many Scifi classics can we reference in this thread while discussing this show, challenge start.

Omnicrom
Aug 3, 2007
Snorlax Afficionado




Is it cheating to bring up Rossum's Universal Robots?

MagicAlex
Jan 6, 2007




Do they replay it at the beginning of the next episode? I've cleared cache and it's ending at the same spot. Is it important enough that I need to make myself crazy trying to see these last 10 seconds or whatever of anime footage?

Raenir Salazar
Nov 5, 2010

No way...


College Slice

Omnicrom posted:

Is it cheating to bring up Rossum's Universal Robots?

I'm not super familiar with it, but can you write a short paragraph explaining how it relates to the plot? How does Vivy build on top of it? Or explore its themes?

MagicAlex posted:

Do they replay it at the beginning of the next episode? I've cleared cache and it's ending at the same spot. Is it important enough that I need to make myself crazy trying to see these last 10 seconds or whatever of anime footage?

They might but this series hasn't been particularly consistent in its intro/outro segments, I think its pretty important "Woah" scene and maybe consider an alternative.

Omnicrom
Aug 3, 2007
Snorlax Afficionado




Raenir Salazar posted:

I'm not super familiar with it, but can you write a short paragraph explaining how it relates to the plot? How does Vivy build on top of it? Or explore its themes?

I was honestly being cheeky. I brought it up because it's the origin of the word "robot", is actually about an AI rebellion that started about a century after the creation of the robots, and has robots that are very close to humans both in appearance and in intelligence and outlook so there are some obvious parallels to Vivy.

On the other hand those parallels are mostly surface level because the actual plot and themes of RUR don't map well to Vivy since the play is actually about class struggles. The robots are a metaphor for the exploitation of workers under capitalism and the play is more broadly about cycles of violence and about cultural and generational shifts. The joke of asking whether it's "cheating" to bring it up is because a thing about robots growing, developing, and rebelling is dealing in concepts literally as old as the word "robot".

But on the third hand there's still a chance that the show will eventually focus an arc on the fact that the AI we see in the show are meant to be fundamentally subservient to humans despite having the capacity for free will and self-determination. Also, the big turning point moment at the very end of the story of RUR has to do with confirming that the robots truly have the capacity for love, compassion, and what you might consider "humanity" which does seem to be a big deal recurring theme for Vivy. Who knows, maybe my stupid crack will end up being prescient.

Raenir Salazar
Nov 5, 2010

No way...


College Slice

Omnicrom posted:

I was honestly being cheeky. I brought it up because it's the origin of the word "robot", is actually about an AI rebellion that started about a century after the creation of the robots, and has robots that are very close to humans both in appearance and in intelligence and outlook so there are some obvious parallels to Vivy.

On the other hand those parallels are mostly surface level because the actual plot and themes of RUR don't map well to Vivy since the play is actually about class struggles. The robots are a metaphor for the exploitation of workers under capitalism and the play is more broadly about cycles of violence and about cultural and generational shifts. The joke of asking whether it's "cheating" to bring it up is because a thing about robots growing, developing, and rebelling is dealing in concepts literally as old as the word "robot".

But on the third hand there's still a chance that the show will eventually focus an arc on the fact that the AI we see in the show are meant to be fundamentally subservient to humans despite having the capacity for free will and self-determination. Also, the big turning point moment at the very end of the story of RUR has to do with confirming that the robots truly have the capacity for love, compassion, and what you might consider "humanity" which does seem to be a big deal recurring theme for Vivy. Who knows, maybe my stupid crack will end up being prescient.

I love this post! I wish we had more like, "Overthinker" long form discussion about themes in anime. I haven't found too many anitubers that have the production quality, listenable voice, and content all together.

Kaiser Mazoku
Mar 24, 2011

Didn't you see it!? Couldn't you see my "spirit"!?

Poor Vivy

Pyronic
Oct 1, 2008

ROYAL RAINWHARRGARBL


This and Dynazenon have me on the edge of my seat every week (for completely different reasons)

But drat Anime's GOOD this season.

DurosKlav
Jun 13, 2003

Enter your name pilot!


Brutal Garcon posted:

Did no-one think of backing up Nursebot before they did all the highly experimental stuff? - maybe they can't, which has weird implications for how AIs work in this setting.


Wasnt that the whole point of the failed Elizabeth experiment?

I'm kind of curious how she is able to disappear for days on end from the theme park without anyone questioning why. Also her singing career path feels backward. As the first fully autonomous AI I would think she would have been more of a curiosity at the start and as more and more showed up her fame would drop.

Finally I'm not sure Matsumoto has any real chance to have any self reflection on events. It sounds like he more or less just gets woken up by his programing shortly before one of the events he has programmed into him and then just shuts off after.

DurosKlav fucked around with this message at 08:48 on May 3, 2021

cock hero flux
Apr 17, 2011





it was pretty harsh that vivy punched that other robot's heart out for singing badly

Raenir Salazar
Nov 5, 2010

No way...


College Slice

DurosKlav posted:

Wasnt that the whole point of the failed Elizabeth experiment?

I'm kind of curious how she is able to disappear for days on end from the theme park without anyone questioning why. Also her singing career path feels backward. As the first fully autonomous AI I would think she would have been more of a curiosity at the start and as more and more showed up her fame would drop.

Finally I'm not sure Matsumoto has any real chance to have any self reflection on events. It sounds like he more or less just gets woken up by his programing shortly before one of the events he has programmed into him and then just shuts off after.

I mean if the Beetles were still around they'd still be pretty big. Artists have an easier time maintaining relevance over tech. Sure she is tech, but she's also constantly pushing past her limits I think.

gimme the GOD DAMN candy
Jul 1, 2007


i think it is pretty clear that vivy is a more successful singer in this timeline because of her personal growth.

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Philosopher King
Oct 25, 2006


I think I must have missed something, it went from saving the senator, to having the bear ride a mech kicking her rear end because what she did caused a plane to blow up? Or was the plane going to blow up always and she was mad that he didn't tell her it was going to happen?

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