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Notorious R.I.M. posted:Well the good news is that if they got wrecked by Dose 1 they probably already had COVID, and they will have a very robust immune response from 1 COVID + 1 mrna vax!! Nah, that is not supported by any evidence I'm aware of. The only real bright spot is that at least 1 dose of mRNA vaccine does provide a level of protection against the virus.
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May 7, 2021 20:17
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I think the hyperfocus on death rates has always been a mistake, and it is especially a mistake when trying to increase vaccine uptake. The number of possible non-fatal negative outcomes is pretty high and pretty disturbing, and I think applying a little more attention to those could help spur more hesitant people to get their drat shots.
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May 8, 2021 22:46
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Fluffy Bunnies posted:if there are, I'd really like to see them for scientific curiosity. To the best of my knowledge, the only covid deaths counted are the ones that directly die while having the virus, not the ones that die months later from complications; in the US anyhow. It's totally possible that I'm wrong, though "Long covid" refers to people for whom covid becomes a chronic illness, so mortality doesn't really figure into it.
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May 9, 2021 00:20
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Platystemon posted:Chronic illnesses kill people all the time. But that's not what we're talking about here. The whole thread of this discussion is that hyperfocus on mortality rates is bad, so more attention to the non-fatal outcomes of covid is good, which includes cases where it assumes the appearance of a chronic disease. Pointing out that chronic illnesses kill people is just returning to the initial problem of a hyperfocus on mortality.
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May 9, 2021 00:31
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Fluffy Bunnies posted:Okay so when we have about 600,000 dead and Covid is (statistically) sitting on about 10% of average US deaths per day, I don't get why "hyperfocus" on deaths is bad. Dying is bad and we should be trying to avoid it. I dunno why people wouldn't be deeply concerned about so many deaths and a disease that is pretty impressively deadly. CaptainSarcastic posted:I think the hyperfocus on death rates has always been a mistake, and it is especially a mistake when trying to increase vaccine uptake. The number of possible non-fatal negative outcomes is pretty high and pretty disturbing, and I think applying a little more attention to those could help spur more hesitant people to get their drat shots. The context is trying to encourage vaccination. With death rates and percentages you run into people playing percentages and throwing out big numbers, neither of which are things that humans are good at comprehending. Bringing up the significant chance of non-fatal but serious consequences might get some people to get their shot who might otherwise have just kept coasting along with "I'm young and healthy and won't die if I get it."
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May 9, 2021 00:42
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Involuntary Sparkle posted:It's frustrating to me personally because my grandmother died from post-covid complications (it damaged her liver, pancreas, heart, and brain) but because it was 4 months after her diagnosis and she wasn't positive at the time, it wasn't a direct cause of death. I am wondering how many deaths like that there will be? At this point situations like that should be caught in the "excess death" calculations, if nowhere else.
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May 9, 2021 01:24
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Fur20 posted:got #2 and now i have mad tinnitus I don't know for sure how it works, but there may be a critical threshold for how many or how rigorous the reports need to be for inclusion on the list of side effects. Like, a metallic taste in the mouth is apparently a rare but known side effect that as far as I know doesn't show up on official side effect lists. https://sports.yahoo.com/people-report-metallic-taste-mouth-164917655.html
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May 9, 2021 21:39
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Spinz posted:Wow After my first Moderna shot I got extreme sound sensitivity as a side effect, but thankfully not after the second shot. I'm not sure if that would fall under "headache," but I guess it is technically "hyperacusis." It only lasted for a day or so, but was very unpleasant. I've only had it happen before after concussions or a couple of my most prize-winning hangovers.
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May 9, 2021 21:52
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QuarkJets posted:That study actually supports what I said earlier: this study cites a 56% reduction in CFR in the best-case, which coupled with the reduced likelihood of infection still does not come anywhere near "one in ten million" odds What is your basic thesis here? That the vaccines don't provide very good protection after all, or are you trying to push back against people who treat it is a magic complete immunity to covid?
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May 10, 2021 08:01
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QuarkJets posted:The latter; basically someone came in to report having to plan a funeral for a dead vaccine-haver and someone else was like "wow their body should be donated to medical science, that's like one in ten million odds!" Meanwhile, some vaccinated people are acting like the pandemic is already over, but that's far from the case. Basically this: Okay, thanks for clarifying. I don't know, but I think trying to find metaphors might be more helpful than arguing numbers and percentages. Like, the odds of a bad infection might be similar to getting hit by lightning, but you don't grab a lightning rod and go stand out in the middle of a field during a lightning storm, either. People treating the vaccine as a panacea are metaphorically grabbing those lightning rods and running out into the storm.
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May 10, 2021 08:45
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Fur20 posted:tinnitus mostly cleared up, just like with real covid. im glad of being able to hear music again, as well as the irritating high frequency noises produced by lamps Glad to hear it.  More seriously, I wonder if the extreme sound sensitivity I had after the first Moderna dose might have been from the same mechanism. I didn't have any tinnitus, but holy hell was my hearing painfully sensitive.
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May 11, 2021 05:56
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So far it looks like my state is not hopping on the CDC bandwagon, but we'll see. I also can't help but wonder if the "masks still required inside businesses if they say so" exception is an attempt to punt some of the regulatory burden (blame) onto corporations, like what happened in Texas and other places that refused mask mandates.
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May 13, 2021 20:07
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poll plane variant posted:In a 6-3 ruling the supreme court has ruled it unconstitutional to mandate any vaccines Just to be painfully clear, you're making a sarcastically pessimistic joke here, right?
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May 14, 2021 03:46
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Cool, just checking.
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May 14, 2021 04:08
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MarcusSA posted:They might be joking but they probably aren’t wrong. Meh. Despite how the Republican death cult is operating, it still strikes me as a reach that the Supreme Court would void a century or more of established case law to own the libs. During the measles outbreaks a couple years ago I read into the matter (disclaimer: I am not a lawyer) and the ability of individual states to mandate vaccination under the umbrella of public health is pretty robust. Not to mention that employers can mandate these things, too.
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May 14, 2021 04:27
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MarcusSA posted:States maybe it just seems like a pretty large over reach for it to be federally mandated. Well, yeah, I'm not sure the Feds could effectively mandate vaccine outside international travel or a few other specific areas - I'm pretty sure it falls to the state level, much like mask mandates and lockdown stuff.
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May 14, 2021 04:36
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mikemil828 posted:They can certainly mandate it to the military. Like I said, there are some domains where the Feds would have the authority, but they're specific. Snowglobe of Doom posted:https://twitter.com/WhiteHouse/status/1392907170702839808 Uuuuuuuugggggggghhhhhh. That last one in particular feels way wrong.
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May 14, 2021 06:42
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Snowglobe of Doom posted:Yeah you are. Specifically this part: Is he related to "the smoker's tooth polish?" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mNOdhOa5Fig
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May 15, 2021 06:40
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It was advised to avoid taking NSAIDs before vaccination, and that was based on suggestive research involving other vaccinations, if memory serves. It's reasonable advice and I followed it, but there is no indication that treating side effects after the fact is bad. Truth be told I erred on the side of caution and waited for like a day or so afterwards, but that was almost certainly excessive of me.
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May 15, 2021 09:32
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I've been fully vaccinated since early March and have been out to restaurants a few times, and it's still weird.
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May 16, 2021 05:50
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Picnic Princess posted:I got my first shot in my non-dominant arm and realized that night it was a big mistake, because that's the side I sleep on. Not doing that again. I was glad I got both my shots in my dominant arm for this very reason.
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May 16, 2021 09:22
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One of the problems in talking about immunity are the fuckwits out there who treat vaccination as some kind of anointment, where covid is simply not a concern anymore and they can lick all the lamp posts they want now and forevermore. Add in the CDC unexpectedly dropping "forget about masks if you're vaccinated" then it makes the whole situation really disturbing. I'm planning to keep wearing masks the same way I was for the indefinite future, but I'm also lucky I live in a place where I am unlikely to have idiots step up on me for doing so.
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May 17, 2021 00:23
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satanic splash-back posted:So when the scientists say I can go without a mask because I'm vaccinated, and I follow their scientifically backed opinion, I'm a fuckwit? The cashier at the grocery store doesn't know if I'm vaccinated. The small restaurant I got takeout from yesterday doesn't know if I'm vaccinated. If wearing a mask makes others around me feel safer then I'm going to do it. I'm not sure why this is a difficult concept, much less something to get angry about.
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May 17, 2021 00:31
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mikemil828 posted:https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/covid-19/health-departments/past-breakthrough-data.html No, the people who demonstrably treat the vaccination like a magical transformation that means we can drop all safety precautions are. "I got my shot so open 'er up!" is where I'm drawing the fuckwit line. And wearing a mask for the 15 minutes I'm in the grocery store or whatever is not a significant burden.
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May 17, 2021 00:48
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If the CDC had approached the lifting of mask restrictions in a more measured way this would be much less of a concern. My state has been operating on a predictable weekly cadence for managing restrictions, and it was not a surprise when risk levels would be adjusted up or down. To have the CDC just out of the blue say "Ayyyyy, fuggedabout masks" in the middle of the week with no prep time was terrible and confusing messaging. If they had said the change would be implemented June 1st or something it would have been easier to manage, or even with a week's lead time, but just mic dropping it midweek in the middle of May was jarring.
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May 17, 2021 00:53
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Purgatory Glory posted:I could of sworn Israel was like 80 percent months ago. So I looked for a chart and it's probably the same that says they are over 100 percent per 100 people. How does this work? I think the discrepancy is due to most of the vaccines requiring two doses.
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May 17, 2021 01:11
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satanic splash-back posted:So now if you believe the CDC and follow their guidelines, you're an idiot or ignorant of danger or something? Yes, clearly that was my last several posts were saying. You caught me.
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May 17, 2021 01:49
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Unlucky7 posted:That describes the U.S. for the past 5 years. That's charitable.
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May 17, 2021 06:51
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Platystemon posted:They’ve walked this back in the same way they’ve walked everything else back: by making excuses, by blaming others, by playing games with definitions. It's really hard to fathom how they hosed it up so badly. Under the Trump administration I learned that my lowest expectations were frequently not low enough, but this was a remarkably clueless announcement. It's seriously one of those "what did they think would happen?" moments.
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May 17, 2021 06:59
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Platystemon posted:I want to go back to snippet from Walensky that has been widely quoted. Or has it been misquoted? I've been operating under the assumption she is not walking things back, and is content to let the fallout happen at the level of states and businesses. I know around here a lot of stores are keeping their mask requirements in place, but we'll see if that continues. I went to my local Safeway tonight and they still have a big sign up requiring masks, which is well within businesses' purview, but I don't know how much I can expect them to keep with it if people start flogging the CDC guidance as an excuse.
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May 17, 2021 07:45
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stellers bae posted:it feels so good to be vaccinated and not wearing a mask. yes! enjoy life. Whose rereg are you?
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May 18, 2021 07:22
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ShadowHawk posted:I don't mean to undermine the importance of containment or vaccination but it's important to note that Covid still has a surprisingly lowish death rate with proper care. Current case fatality rates are under 2%. An excessive focus on death rates has been part of the problem in getting the virus under control. For a lot of people the odds of dying might be low, but the odds of permanent heart or lung damage, or psychosis, or taste/smell perversion are not well-quantified.
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May 18, 2021 08:26
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When I saw a bunch of new posts in this thread I do have to say I did not expect a heated 9/11 derail. Well-played, thread, well-played.
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May 20, 2021 02:49
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J posted:I work for a small business that recently announced that anyone who provides proof of vaccination to HR will be allowed to go maskless in our offices. Overall the company and all my coworkers have taken covid very seriously, everyone has been masked, maintained distance including re-arranging of certain spaces to allow for distance, allowing remote work for those who had jobs where it was possible, etc. I'm vaccinated and will still be working mostly remotely, but when I do go into the office I'm not gonna be sure what to do. On one hand, I still want to wear a mask, on the other hand I don't want others around me to have to worry about me potentially being unvaccinated, or an anti-vaxxer because I'm still wearing a mask. Anyone else in a similar position and if so how are you handling it? That's the awkward thing about deciding to stick with masking up, and I wish there was an easy way to let people know I am vaccinated. At this point I am planning to keep wearing a mask not for me, but for other people. I'm not a risk, and I don't feel at risk, but people like the cashiers and restaurant staff don't know that. If I can make them feel more comfortable then the tiny discomfort of wearing my very nice mask is a very small price to pay.
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May 22, 2021 02:05
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Platystemon posted:Please don’t wear a cloth mask for personal protection. Mine is a cloth mask with replaceable N95 filters inside, so it's actually some level of protection. It's a bit moot since I'm fully vaccinated, but I've been sticking with the filters anyway. That reminds me, I should order more just to have more in stock. If wildfires are bad this year I'm going to deploy my masks for that, too.
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May 22, 2021 02:49
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Ugly In The Morning posted:It’s kind of frustrating how many places are focusing on stuff like deep cleaning even though it’s basically useless. I guess it’s nice and viable though so it makes people feel better. If places are doing the deep cleaning instead of actually helpful covid-preventative stuff like dealing with ventilation then yeah, it's frustrating. But I hope they keep up with sanitizing more because it does help with OTHER pathogens. I was attuned to surface transmission way before the pandemic, like always disinfecting grocery cart handles before use, and viewing doorknobs as an existential threat. Even if surface transmission is not really a thing with covid it is with other illnesses, and I'd like to see some of that focus on making surfaces less gross continue.
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May 22, 2021 23:13
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Ugly In The Morning posted:To an extent, the flu is like ~4 percent fomite spread. The masks helped a lot more. I’m not averse to cleaning stuff but there’s a hyper focus on it and fomite spread in general (see that post about the IDs for the library) that I don’t like. I totally agree it should be within reason, and overkill is not helpful. But seeing an overall improvement compared to the beforetimes would be welcome. I read studies about the stuff they found on grocery cart handles and it galvanized me to always disinfect them, and I take a similar approach with other things handled by others. My own situation is complicated by the fact I have a pretty reactive eczema, so using alcohol-based hand sanitizer is not really possible for me. Well, unless I want to get weeping hives all over my hands. The soap in a lot of public restrooms is the same kind of gamble. It's much easier for me to use sanitizing cloths and avoid touching things, and the surface cleaning helps.
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May 22, 2021 23:37
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Facebook Aunt posted:Once a week they roll through and spray all the common areas (halls, laundry rooms, mail room, etc.) with vaporized hydrogen peroxide, I think? They've been doing it once a week for a year. Thanks, but I'd rather see HEPA filters, eh? Have you done anything at all to improve the ventilation in those common areas? No? Hydrogen peroxide is one of those things I get annoyed about, because for the most part that is sanitizing theater. It DOES work to disinfect, if you leave it on a hard surface for a period of time, from memory I think around 20 minutes. It does NOT work for disinfecting cuts and such, and is actually more likely to cause minor surface irritation than anything else. But the bubbles make it seem like it's doing something. That's going by memory, but I'm pretty confident the way most people use hydrogen peroxide is due to the continuation of old-wives-tale level misinformation.
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May 22, 2021 23:49
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Super deep cleans is definitely excessive. What I'd like to see is the normalization of stuff like having separate clean/used pens for paperwork, disinfecting of things multiple people touch/handle (clipboards, doorknobs, punch pads), and more availability of non-alcohol disinfecting wipes.
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May 23, 2021 00:18
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learnincurve posted:I would argue please deep clean more, all the deep cleaning. We have this 24 hour sickness bug in the UK that kids are particularly susceptible to, and can repeatedly get, and our special needs school has to be shut down and deep cleaned over and over again because that’s the only guaranteed way of getting rid of it. Fair enough. Here in the US I'm kind of used to seeing "Genericville's Schools Closed Due To Rotavirus Outbreak" or things like that. It's usually something people colloquially refer to as "stomach flu," and is vomiting and diarrhea from rotavirus, norovirus, and things like that. I think I have the virus names at least close to right, but in any case it is frequent outbreaks of mild illnesses which could be better prevented.
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May 23, 2021 01:39
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