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Beamed
Nov 26, 2010

Then you have a responsibility that no man has ever faced. You have your fear which could become reality, and you have Godzilla, which is reality.




Do NOT play as the UK in a Victoria game, it is a management nightmare

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Gaius Marius
Oct 9, 2012



And people say Vicky doesn't accurately represents reality

Gort
Aug 18, 2003


Beamed posted:

Do NOT play as the UK in a Victoria game, it is a management nightmare

I mean, the two Victoria games are really different, sounds like

You probably shouldn't lump them together like this

(I never played 1 but people talk about manually splitting and promoting pops and that sounds like some bullshit)

Raenir Salazar
Nov 5, 2010

USNews: Biden approves $735M weapons sale to Israel


College Slice

Paradox games frequently have the problem where a management nightmare necessitates alt-f4'ing out of the game because its painful to play instead of being a fun engaging challenging that doesn't physically injure you. Ideally there isn't that many substantially more clicks per minute managing China vs Managing Germany.

Dr. Video Games 0031
Jul 16, 2004



Gort posted:

I mean, the two Victoria games are really different, sounds like

You probably shouldn't lump them together like this

(I never played 1 but people talk about manually splitting and promoting pops and that sounds like some bullshit)

There was something really weird in the V1 code that made it so a pop's output didn't scale linearly with its size. The optimal size for a pop for some reason was something like 40,000, with the max pop size being 100,000. Any more than 40,000 would see a reduced output per person. Players were annoyed by this, so Paradox's solution was to add pop splitting, allowing you to split pops (at a 1-to-3 split, i believe) before they get too big. Now you can always keep pops at their optimal size! (while destroying your mouse)

Or maybe it was the population growth formula that made you want to split pops and not production efficiency? I can't remember. I do remember it not being a tremendously big deal, actually. If you chose to ignore manual pop splitting, you could still do pretty well. You were just not as efficient as you could have been.

Dr. Video Games 0031 fucked around with this message at 22:35 on Jun 9, 2021

fuf
Sep 12, 2004

haha

Gort posted:

Playing tiny countries is a pretty bad move for learning any Paradox game. Tiny countries need specific, railroaded strategies that you can't deviate from. They're bad for learning.

Play a big country that can actually absorb a mistake here or there. One of the good things about Paradox games is that they usually make running a big country similarly complex to running a small one.

I never understood this argument.

Surely no one starts playing with the intention of actually doing particularly well in their first few games? You're mostly just trying to understand wtf is going on and how things work.

I think a country that is small enough so that you can grasp everything that is going on is clearly way better for learning than a big country where things can quickly get overwhelming.

You don't want to start with like 50 provinces to keep track of, you want three or four so you can click around and see what's going on and what effect your decisions have.

You don't want 15 vassals, you want a couple so you can get to know them and how you interact with them.

You don't want to start with a giant army and fleets to reorganise, you just want a few divisions and ships to inspect.

Starting small makes learning how the games work much more manageable.

Veeta
Dec 23, 2011

... καὶ ὡς ὑπὸ βελῶν τοῖς σοῖς κατατρωθήσονται ῥήμασιν.


Dr. Video Games 0031 posted:

There was something really weird in the V1 code that made it so a pop's output didn't scale linearly with its size. The optimal size for a pop for some reason was something like 40,000, with the max pop size being 100,000. Any more than 40,000 would see a reduced output per person. Players were annoyed by this, so Paradox's solution was to add pop splitting, allowing you to split pops (at a 1-to-3 split, i believe) before they get too big. Now you can always keep pops at their optimal size! (while destroying your mouse)

Or maybe it was the population growth formula that made you want to split pops and not production efficiency? I can't remember. I do remember it not being a tremendously big deal, actually. If you chose to ignore manual pop splitting, you could still do pretty well. You were just not as efficient as you could have been.

I used to play V1 in multiplayer, and splitting without pausing the game could case sync issues. Cue 5 minute splitting breaks at the start and end of each session.

Gameplay!

(It was still a very fun game to play in multiplayer)

Eiba
Jul 26, 2007




fuf posted:

I never understood this argument.

Surely no one starts playing with the intention of actually doing particularly well in their first few games? You're mostly just trying to understand wtf is going on and how things work.

I think a country that is small enough so that you can grasp everything that is going on is clearly way better for learning than a big country where things can quickly get overwhelming.

You don't want to start with like 50 provinces to keep track of, you want three or four so you can click around and see what's going on and what effect your decisions have.

You don't want 15 vassals, you want a couple so you can get to know them and how you interact with them.

You don't want to start with a giant army and fleets to reorganise, you just want a few divisions and ships to inspect.

Starting small makes learning how the games work much more manageable.
Strongly agree. I learned Victoria with Belgium. I was not expecting to "win," I was expecting to figure out what the buttons do, and how things changed when I fiddled with them. It was still a really fun game, and I learned the basics pretty well. I feel starting with even the US would be pretty overwhelming.

Edgar Allen Ho
Apr 3, 2017


Quoth James Cameron,

"Nevermore"



Pre-Ricky your capiatlists wouldn't build a factroy even under laissez-faire. You did that poo poo your drat self. The true hardcore Victoria for true gamers.

DrSunshine
Mar 23, 2009

Did I just say that out loud~~?!!!


If the dev diaries are to be believed, V3 should be more amenable to starting small than any other Paradox game, with the emphasis on "Gardening your country". There will probably be less pressure and existential threat from being a minor than the other titles.

Jazerus
May 24, 2011



fuf posted:

I never understood this argument.

Surely no one starts playing with the intention of actually doing particularly well in their first few games? You're mostly just trying to understand wtf is going on and how things work.

I think a country that is small enough so that you can grasp everything that is going on is clearly way better for learning than a big country where things can quickly get overwhelming.

You don't want to start with like 50 provinces to keep track of, you want three or four so you can click around and see what's going on and what effect your decisions have.

You don't want 15 vassals, you want a couple so you can get to know them and how you interact with them.

You don't want to start with a giant army and fleets to reorganise, you just want a few divisions and ships to inspect.

Starting small makes learning how the games work much more manageable.

i think it really varies from game to game.

CK? yeah, starting as a count just makes sense for learning purposes, although i will say that sometimes brand new CK players intimidate themselves when they start as a single county because they think that they're missing a bunch of depth to the game that would make them not have to wait around and get frustrated trying to "learn" things that don't actually exist.

EU? no, small countries are very challenging and getting bodied over and over is not usually fun. medium-sized tags like portugal or milan are ideal for learning.

V2? well, everybody should play medium-sized nations for the most part, new or veteran. the GPs aren't really fun unless you have a very specific idea for an alternate timeline that you want to implement, and tags that are too small literally can't do anything for a long time. size in V2 is about population numbers though, so like belgium, bavaria or two sicilies are fine, powerful even, while venezuela is not.

Ghost of Mussolini
Jun 26, 2011


RickyVIP cannot fail, it can only be failed.

The Cheshire Cat
Jun 10, 2008



Fun Shoe

Raenir Salazar posted:

This is a very opaque part of V2 but my understanding is elections don't affect the Upper House.

It depends on your laws but yeah it's pretty opaque; Upper House composition of "ruling party only" is fairly obvious (but you usually only get this as some form of dictatorship), "appointed" means that the political makeup of the upper house will only reflect the political alignments of the upper class (capitalists and aristocrats). "Two per state" will make it pretend that every state is the same size and set it by averaging the political support percentage of every state (ex: if you have two states, one with a very low population that is 25% liberal, 75% conservative, and one with a very high population that is 25% conservative, 75% liberal, you'll end up with an evenly split 50/50 upper house). "Based on population" just straight up makes the upper house composition perfectly match the political alignment over your overall (accepted) population.

The thing that makes this confusing is that Conservatives and Liberals will sometimes support passing laws they wouldn't normally (usually, conservatives don't want the laws changed at all, while liberals will support progressive political reforms but no social reforms), depending on the militancy of the population. The angrier the people are, the more conservatives/liberals will support reforms, so this is why people suggest that the best strategy for reforming is to piss people off - because conservatives and liberals will typically make up the bulk of your upper house. So if you aren't aware of this, it can be very unclear why sometimes your upper house will support changing a law but other times it won't, even when the composition is basically the same.

The Cheshire Cat fucked around with this message at 01:14 on Jun 10, 2021

karmicknight
Aug 21, 2011


EEEEEEEY YO

Gort posted:

(I never played 1 but people talk about manually splitting and promoting pops and that sounds like some bullshit)

It's actually very loving funny, because the solid trick is to have a big clump of population, split into five pieces the two largest pieces being clerks and the three smaller ones being craftsmen, and thus make your factories powerful.

Also pop's did auto-split, but you had very manual control of your pops in a very funny degree.

edit:

Also, in terms of V2 starts, Brazil is the golden one. It's the Untied States (with associated problems and advantages) but (population-wise) smaller and with an Emperor to keep things chill. You get the benefits of monarchy as a control lever for your politics, but you are also safe from european wars, receiving immigration buffs for not being in Europe, and have a bunch of states pre-fail surrounding you to beat up if you so choose.

karmicknight fucked around with this message at 01:21 on Jun 10, 2021

Edgar Allen Ho
Apr 3, 2017


Quoth James Cameron,

"Nevermore"



Two clerk and three craftsmen pops per factory level was the intended mechanic, actual mechanic was thread famous infinite capitalists gazing down on the one dude toiling away to make clipper ships in 1928

Hellioning
Jun 27, 2008



Edgar Allen Ho posted:

Two clerk and three craftsmen pops per factory level was the intended mechanic, actual mechanic was thread famous infinite capitalists gazing down on the one dude toiling away to make clipper ships in 1928

That is historical, right?

Jazerus
May 24, 2011



The Cheshire Cat posted:

The thing that makes this confusing is that Conservatives and Liberals will sometimes support passing laws they wouldn't normally (usually, conservatives don't want the laws changed at all, while liberals will support progressive political reforms but no social reforms), depending on the militancy of the population. The angrier the people are, the more conservatives/liberals will support reforms, so this is why people suggest that the best strategy for reforming is to piss people off - because conservatives and liberals will typically make up the bulk of your upper house. So if you aren't aware of this, it can be very unclear why sometimes your upper house will support changing a law but other times it won't, even when the composition is basically the same.

specifically, each unit of overall militancy increases the support of non-extremist parties for reforms they normally wouldn't support by 10%. so 5 militancy will make 50% of liberals vote for social reforms, 50% of socialists vote for political reforms, and 50% of conservatives vote for either one (liberals will always vote for political reforms and socialists will always vote for social reforms, while conservatives never vote for either without pressure from the population)

StashAugustine
Mar 24, 2013

Do not trust in hope- it will betray you! Only faith and hatred sustain.









Does size of a political movement feed into it at all?

Jazerus
May 24, 2011



StashAugustine posted:

Does size of a political movement feed into it at all?

no lol they don't give a poo poo except insofar as the movement impacts militancy

StashAugustine
Mar 24, 2013

Do not trust in hope- it will betray you! Only faith and hatred sustain.









Between this politics chat and reading about the endgame liquidity meltdown I'm finding out more about the game than I'm sure I like

Allyn
Sep 4, 2007

I love Charlie from Busted!

StashAugustine posted:

Does size of a political movement feed into it at all?


Jazerus posted:

no lol they don't give a poo poo except insofar as the movement impacts militancy

Indeed: in V2, the Upper House will gain support for any of the political reforms as militancy rises. Which means it's a legit strat to ignore political movements for the day's hot button issue purely to drive up that militancy, allowing you to pass all the other political reforms quicker. For example, half your country wants to abolish slavery? Well too bad, they're gonna have to wait for everybody to get full voting rights, freedom of assembly, freedom of the press, freedom to unionise, etc etc, first! If you start by outlawing slavery, it'll disband the abolitionist movement, lowering militancy (and its growth), and, ultimately, significantly slow down your passage of all the reforms.

Jazerus
May 24, 2011



Allyn posted:

Indeed: in V2, the Upper House will gain support for any of the political reforms as militancy rises. Which means it's a legit strat to ignore political movements for the day's hot button issue purely to drive up that militancy, allowing you to pass all the other political reforms quicker. For example, half your country wants to abolish slavery? Well too bad, they're gonna have to wait for everybody to get full voting rights, freedom of assembly, freedom of the press, freedom to unionise, etc etc, first! If you start by outlawing slavery, it'll disband the abolitionist movement, lowering militancy (and its growth), and, ultimately, significantly slow down your passage of all the reforms.

you can even milk abolitionism to pass healthcare/schools/minimum wage/etc.

makes you wish a v2 player had been running the US in the 1850s

reignonyourparade
Nov 15, 2012


fuf posted:

I never understood this argument.

Surely no one starts playing with the intention of actually doing particularly well in their first few games? You're mostly just trying to understand wtf is going on and how things work.

Instantly dying/accomplishing absolutely nothing isn't very conducive to learning the game either.

The Cheshire Cat
Jun 10, 2008



Fun Shoe

StashAugustine posted:

Between this politics chat and reading about the endgame liquidity meltdown I'm finding out more about the game than I'm sure I like

The thing about Victoria's mechanics is that individually they aren't really that complicated, it's just there are so many of them acting in concert and modifying each other that it can be very difficult to parse what's going on and even harder to exert any control over it.

Although honestly that's what I've always found interesting about the game. Understanding how it works doesn't make you any better at it.

Agean90
Jun 28, 2008




That's why I like Vicky 2 and why Vicky 3 going for nation gardening is great. You just do something and see what happens

Idea: socilists get elected in my modded frca run
result: an urge to make my military entirely independent of exports leads to a crash in the us arms industry

A Buttery Pastry
Sep 4, 2011

Delicious and Informative!


DrSunshine posted:

If the dev diaries are to be believed, V3 should be more amenable to starting small than any other Paradox game, with the emphasis on "Gardening your country". There will probably be less pressure and existential threat from being a minor than the other titles.
I'm not sure that follows. The whole thing about being a gardener is prioritizing internal management so you don't feel like you have to go to war to be entertained, that doesn't mean the rest of the world will just let you garden in peace. They've specifically called out the struggle of smaller states to stand up to imperialism as a core part of the experience of playing them.

Perhaps a country like Sweden or Switzerland can just go all-in on gardening and be relatively unmolested, but a lot of other small countries are gonna have developers with bulldozers trying to turn you garden into a parking lot.

The Cheshire Cat posted:

The thing about Victoria's mechanics is that individually they aren't really that complicated, it's just there are so many of them acting in concert and modifying each other that it can be very difficult to parse what's going on and even harder to exert any control over it.

Although honestly that's what I've always found interesting about the game. Understanding how it works doesn't make you any better at it.
I don't know, knowing the game probably does help quite a bit. It's just that outcomes scale to player skill in a more restrained and largely linear manner, whereas improvement in Europa Universalis just goes exponential due to snowball effects.

StashAugustine
Mar 24, 2013

Do not trust in hope- it will betray you! Only faith and hatred sustain.









well this colombia run has been better but i don't think im gonna make great power status. i want to build up a huge pointless navy for some military points but for some reason i can't buy any fuel despite being a secondary power. also i don't seem to have anywhere near enough manpower

Raenir Salazar
Nov 5, 2010

USNews: Biden approves $735M weapons sale to Israel


College Slice

One thing I hope they fix for Vicky 3 is the incentive to break your own country to speed run reforms. Hopefully it's a bit easier to steer your pops so that 100 years don't just go by without a single reform being possible but you aren't incentivized to make your pops angry to get reforms. The latter ironically made sence in the context of taking advantage of say, a national tragedy or insult to gin up support but mostly it comes down to cheesey things like losing wars on purpose to spike up militancy; then there's people seeing reforms being available and then ignoring reforms people want to go down the heathcare tree instead etc.

Pooned
Dec 28, 2005

Eye contact counters everything


Haven't been as hyped for a game since Imperator launch! Not sure how I feel about that.

RabidWeasel
Aug 4, 2007

Cultures thrive on their myths and legends...and snuggles!


Pooned posted:

Haven't been as hyped for a game since Imperator launch! Not sure how I feel about that.

Considering the difference in length of dev time between Imperator and V3 and looking at how Imperator is now (a pretty decent game which would have been extremely well received as a version 1.0) I think that's a good sign

Mans
Sep 14, 2011

We have the dimension of an empire.


Gort posted:

Playing tiny countries is a pretty bad move for learning any Paradox game. Tiny countries need specific, railroaded strategies that you can't deviate from. They're bad for learning.

Play a big country that can actually absorb a mistake here or there. One of the good things about Paradox games is that they usually make running a big country similarly complex to running a small one.
I've literally learned to play all modern paradox games by playing as Portugal, and that includes hoi4.

Having less things to manage and being less in the focus of the AI is a good thing to learn the ropes with.

Reveilled
Apr 19, 2007

Take up your rifles


Mans posted:

I've literally learned to play all modern paradox games by playing as Portugal, and that includes hoi4.

Having less things to manage and being less in the focus of the AI is a good thing to learn the ropes with.

When the Portuguese come for you, it will be for this post

Vasukhani
Jan 13, 2019


Sokoto was also a lot of fun for learning at least with HPM

Torrannor
Apr 27, 2013

---FAGNER---
TEAM-MATE


Reveilled posted:

When the Portuguese come for you, it will be for this post


I think Mans posted this very image in the politically loaded maps thread, so they are probably immune to such criticism.

Gort
Aug 18, 2003


Mans posted:

I've literally learned to play all modern paradox games by playing as Portugal, and that includes hoi4.

Having less things to manage and being less in the focus of the AI is a good thing to learn the ropes with.

Eh, Portugal's reasonably powerful in most Paradox games, especially CK and EU. Even in HoI4 you can make them have an impact.

Pretty sure they're one of the "recommended start" countries in EU4.

Tomn
Aug 23, 2007

And the angel said unto him
"Stop hitting yourself. Stop hitting yourself."
But lo he could not. For the angel was hitting him with his own hands


Reveilled posted:

When the Portuguese come for you, it will be for this post


They have the dimension of an empire.

Kaza42
Oct 3, 2013

Blood and Souls and all that

Torrannor posted:

I think Mans posted this very image in the politically loaded maps thread, so they are probably immune to such criticism.

This is a politically loaded map? What's contentious about it, it looks like a typical landmass comparison

Tomn
Aug 23, 2007

And the angel said unto him
"Stop hitting yourself. Stop hitting yourself."
But lo he could not. For the angel was hitting him with his own hands


Kaza42 posted:

This is a politically loaded map? What's contentious about it, it looks like a typical landmass comparison

If I recall correctly it was put out by a nationalist government and the title translates to something like "Portugal is not a small country!", which it accomplishes by...overlaying its colonial holdings onto Europe.

Cough cough.

Takanago
Jun 2, 2007

You'll see...


https://twitter.com/PDXVictoria/status/1403019374257078275

https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/developer-diary/victoria-3-dev-diary-3-buildings.1478868/

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Beamed
Nov 26, 2010

Then you have a responsibility that no man has ever faced. You have your fear which could become reality, and you have Godzilla, which is reality.




Gort posted:

I mean, the two Victoria games are really different, sounds like

You probably shouldn't lump them together like this

(I never played 1 but people talk about manually splitting and promoting pops and that sounds like some bullshit)

Iíve played Britain in both.


Man, how is Wiz sneaking these great design plans by in Modern Paradox?

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