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HerpicleOmnicron5
May 31, 2013

How did this smug dummkopf ever make general?





The only thing that worries me is just how hands on it'll be. I liked being able to just throw money at a bunch of projects that get auto created instead of going through all of my provinces and like, thinking.

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dead gay comedy forums
Oct 21, 2011




quote:

Many of these buildings are limited by locally available resources such as Arable Land for agriculture and simply how much iron is available in the state for Iron Mines. Urban Buildings such as Factories however, are only limited by how many people you can cram into the state, simulating the more densely populated nature of cities. In short, there is no system of building ‘slots’ or anything like that, as we want limitations on buildings to function in a sensible and realistic way.

wiz be praised

Banemaster
Mar 31, 2010


HerpicleOmnicron5 posted:

The only thing that worries me is just how hands on it'll be. I liked being able to just throw money at a bunch of projects that get auto created instead of going through all of my provinces and like, thinking.

Agreed.

I would also like to see buildings being upgraded (to better technology) by consuming resources. So instead of everything tractorizing instantly when technology is researched more well of farms (~ those that produce goods with higher price) would upgrade first by buying vehicles resource or something similar.

Victoria 2's world market resource scarcity was made worse by the fact that outside of employing more people RGOs could not increase their production. Surely, if there was massive iron demand and prices are skyrocketing some enterprising mine owner would buy more machinery to help with production.

Zeron
Oct 23, 2010


HerpicleOmnicron5 posted:

The only thing that worries me is just how hands on it'll be. I liked being able to just throw money at a bunch of projects that get auto created instead of going through all of my provinces and like, thinking.

It shouldn't be too bad if they do it right. I imagine most rural areas you can leave completely alone or just build up some infrastructure/resource based buildings and be done with it. If they balance internal migration right you would really only have to focus on your key states and pops would just come from the rural states to take jobs there.

Well, I do hope there's some automation for upgrading through. I don't mind figuring out all the building parts but going in every few years to +1 the building size was one of the worst parts of V2.

fuf
Sep 12, 2004

haha

The screenshots we've seen so far have featured city names in a pretty prominent way, but it's hard to see how they will fit in if buildings and pops are both handled at a state level. Are they just things on the map that get bigger as urbanization increases?

Kaza42
Oct 3, 2013

Blood and Souls and all that

fuf posted:

The screenshots we've seen so far have featured city names in a pretty prominent way, but it's hard to see how they will fit in if buildings and pops are both handled at a state level. Are they just things on the map that get bigger as urbanization increases?

Basically, yes. We don't have full details on this, but from what we've seen posted so far each state has a city that graphically grows with more urbanization

Beamed
Nov 26, 2010

Then you have a responsibility that no man has ever faced. You have your fear which could become reality, and you have Godzilla, which is reality.




Thinking and making interesting decisions is exactly what I hope this game will facilitate in my country

Baronjutter
Dec 31, 2007

"Tiny Trains"



We've seen with stellaris that Paradox has an extremely hard time designing systems that are interesting and meaningful to interact with at the small scale and don't become a nightmare to manage as your empire scales up. The level of detail and choices that would make playing Belgium interesting end up making playing the UK a mouse-breaking nightmare. The answer is often "automation" but they haven't been able to figure out automation (or systems that are friendly to automation) that players can actually relax and trust not to making very upsetting choices.

Wiz is a smart and well dressed man though, after his Stellaris experience I'm hoping he's got some tricks up his sleeve.

Pakled
Aug 6, 2011

WE ARE SMART

I noticed that states have the national market that they're in prominently displayed on them, that implies that markets can encompass individual states, not just entire countries. I'm guessing this is to represent stuff like great power spheres of influence in China.

Eiba
Jul 26, 2007




Something I've been thinking about lately, that may be beyond the scope of the game was how counter intuitively destructive a lot of "modernization" of some industries were. Particularly logging and in some cases agriculture.

Prussia modernized their forestry by planting a single type of optimal tree and making sure nothing else was growing in the forest. It worked great, once, but after that they had mined all the nutrients that a complex ecology had created and there was a huge collapse.

There's similar issues with replacing "subsistence" farms (that often work with very in depth knowledge of local conditions) with massive factory farms that are easier to tax, but are not necessarily actually more productive.

Basically, living things don't work like factories, but this was the golden era of treating the natural world like a factory, and they hosed it up all the time as a result.

This being a game, I don't think the player should be as ignorant as the people who were doing this stuff at the time, but maybe new techniques having a big penalty to fertility until the kinks get worked out would be an interesting gameplay mechanic. If you adopt the latest science of forestry, you get a big boost now, at the cost of long term sustainability. In the context of the game that might be a tradeoff you're okay with, if you're baking on transitioning to a more factory based economy.

Wiz has said on the Paradox forums that there's no system of fertility, but I think there maybe needs to be, otherwise this game will perfectly simulate the "apply 'science' to make number go up" mindset of the era, without acknowledging how many fundamental mistakes that mindset led to.

CharlestheHammer
Jun 26, 2011

YOU SAY MY POSTS ARE THE RAVINGS OF THE DUMBEST PERSON ON GOD'S GREEN EARTH BUT YOU YOURSELF ARE READING THEM. CURIOUS!


I mean CK for gameplay reasons goes in on Eugenics you can’t really do much about that other than making the game intentionally frustrating

Raenir Salazar
Nov 5, 2010

USNews: Biden approves $735M weapons sale to Israel


College Slice

Eiba posted:

Something I've been thinking about lately, that may be beyond the scope of the game was how counter intuitively destructive a lot of "modernization" of some industries were. Particularly logging and in some cases agriculture.

Prussia modernized their forestry by planting a single type of optimal tree and making sure nothing else was growing in the forest. It worked great, once, but after that they had mined all the nutrients that a complex ecology had created and there was a huge collapse.

There's similar issues with replacing "subsistence" farms (that often work with very in depth knowledge of local conditions) with massive factory farms that are easier to tax, but are not necessarily actually more productive.

Basically, living things don't work like factories, but this was the golden era of treating the natural world like a factory, and they hosed it up all the time as a result.

This being a game, I don't think the player should be as ignorant as the people who were doing this stuff at the time, but maybe new techniques having a big penalty to fertility until the kinks get worked out would be an interesting gameplay mechanic. If you adopt the latest science of forestry, you get a big boost now, at the cost of long term sustainability. In the context of the game that might be a tradeoff you're okay with, if you're baking on transitioning to a more factory based economy.

Wiz has said on the Paradox forums that there's no system of fertility, but I think there maybe needs to be, otherwise this game will perfectly simulate the "apply 'science' to make number go up" mindset of the era, without acknowledging how many fundamental mistakes that mindset led to.

I feel like you can easily abstract the idea of farming; like in the case of tree farming I'm not sure how common it was to do reforestation to replenish tree stocks vs completely deforesting europe for its lumber (which I believe spurred lumber industries in north america and russia in the late 18th century) but the specifics of "well do it the smart way" vs "doing it the dumb way" is not really a choice you want to leave the player. Unless you wanna add something like terravore mechanics to stellaris with people depleting their fish and lumber stocks for BIG NUMBER GO UP now; but I don't really recall the time period being one where that was common compared to today.

I think its better to have the assumption based in that the industry works according to a certain optimal abstract methods not up to the player and since its vicky occassionally have random "events" to throw in such things; you don't even need a pop up just have each building have a stellaris like pulse thing and everyonce in a while you can click on it and see its history of "good production" "bad production" etc and see as a reason "exhausted soil nutrients, -10% output for 5 years while we revitalize the soil".

The more cruft and busy work thats out of the players direct hands (with the option to dig in and find the info in the menus if they really want to) the better in the name of making the mechanics scaleable but still retaining depth and complexity.

To summarize, use the EU4/Stellaris timers for everything but left behind menus.

Raskolnikov38
Mar 3, 2007


We were somewhere around Manila when the drugs began to take hold






]


ecological impacts of industrialization could make for a DLC later down the road. the time period does cover the deforestation of america and the dust bowl.





Raenir Salazar
Nov 5, 2010

USNews: Biden approves $735M weapons sale to Israel


College Slice

Hrm, that is quite stark; even for the relevant 70 year period of 1850 to 1926. Actually it would be neat if RGOs could move; instead of representing "these are where resources are" it represents "these are where there are non-trivial infrastructure for extracting resources" and as the terrain gets more deforested, the more those rgo's start to shift over to virgin lands where its cheaper to extract those resources.

This could potentially simulate what we see very easily with the oil industry. There's loads of reserves in locations where either the quality of the crude oil or the cost to extract or the cost of transportation is such that it didn't become profitable/feasible until the price rose. So there could be regions of trees, or iron, or coal that switch back and forth between being profitable to mind and the rgo exists; to it, similar to factories closing up shop and moving as better deposits are found. Even better if the RGO was owned by a corporation/entity/the state to represent the resource "gold rush" that went on in the Western US and Siberia during the relevant periods.

Obviously you don't want rgo's ping-ponging every day if the cost changes by a few cents; there needs to be some sort of speculation mechanic, a mtth, or some sort of delay that considers the longer term prospect; if a mine is 5$ more profitable but only makes you 1$ after all is said and done; don't leave the mind making you 1$ net profit now but will make you 100$ before its unprofitable. Should be some sort of delay or stickiness; especially if there's a larger upfront capital investment to start up an RGO.

Having corporations or state owned firms in the game would be neat, for a country to go, "Okay I am opening a mine here, it won't be profitable for a while but I want to pay workers to go there, make a town and expand it" and then once technology improves or the demand expectedly increases to the point it IS profitable (or the railway was completed to make it profitable) then you can after absorbing the losses sell it to a private corporation owned by capitalists who can run it more efficiently (if you're in LF, there might be other reasons to do so though, mainly to not have to worry about it anymore and hand it off and forget about it).

Edgar Allen Ho
Apr 3, 2017


Quoth James Cameron,

"Nevermore"



The very beginning of Victoria is also when you see proto-nature reserves set aside so forward-thinking countries can ensure the supply of timber for the navy too, isn't it?

MonsieurChoc
Oct 12, 2013

Every species can smell its own extinction.




I want Armored Trains and Blimps.

DrSunshine
Mar 23, 2009

Did I just say that out loud~~?!!!


MonsieurChoc posted:

I want Armored Trains and Blimps.

Would putting armor even make any sense on a blimp??

Kaza42
Oct 3, 2013

Blood and Souls and all that

DrSunshine posted:

Would putting armor even make any sense on a blimp??

Yes, as long as the lift from the balloon outweighs the weight of the body. Armor on the blimp protects from fire that can damage the carriage or balloon. Obviously there's a pretty hard limit on how much you can have

Mantis42
Jul 26, 2010



Rynoto
Apr 27, 2009
It doesn't help that I'm fat as fuck, so my face shouldn't be shown off in the first place.

The internal bags of blimps were already armoured by the time of WW1. Sort of. With gold.

Baronjutter
Dec 31, 2007

"Tiny Trains"



If population is purely state based, how does the game know how many pops are moved to new owners in the case where a state is split?

Hellioning
Jun 27, 2008



I cannot wait for a bug in which West Virginia and/or Virginia ends up with too much or too little population and it seems like people either cloned themselves or disappeared.

Or maybe WV will secede from Virginia will literally no people in it.

Mantis42
Jul 26, 2010



Baronjutter posted:

If population is purely state based, how does the game know how many pops are moved to new owners in the case where a state is split?

Probably just proportional. Of course that means you can't have ethnic enclaves within states I don't think(?)

DrSunshine
Mar 23, 2009

Did I just say that out loud~~?!!!


Kaza42 posted:

Yes, as long as the lift from the balloon outweighs the weight of the body. Armor on the blimp protects from fire that can damage the carriage or balloon. Obviously there's a pretty hard limit on how much you can have

Just trundling along in my armor plated blimp, I call it a "sky ironclad".

Fair enough, I guess!

I was wondering about this part:

quote:

The counterpart to Government Buildings is Private Industries. The vast majority of Buildings in Victoria 3 fall under this category, which includes a broad range of industries such as (non-subsistence!) farms, plantations, mines and factories. Unlike Government Buildings, Private Industries are not owned by the state but rather by Pops such as Capitalists and Aristocrats, who reap the profits they bring in and pay wages to the other Pops working there (usually at least - under certain economic systems the ownership of buildings may be radically different!).

Many of these buildings are limited by locally available resources such as Arable Land for agriculture and simply how much iron is available in the state for Iron Mines. Urban Buildings such as Factories however, are only limited by how many people you can cram into the state, simulating the more densely populated nature of cities. In short, there is no system of building ‘slots’ or anything like that, as we want limitations on buildings to function in a sensible and realistic way.

What if the player wanted to exert more control over what industries should grow in a state? Would there be some kind of way of encouraging a certain good be produced, if we know that our nation is abundant or deficient in something?

fuf
Sep 12, 2004

haha

DrSunshine posted:

What if the player wanted to exert more control over what industries should grow in a state? Would there be some kind of way of encouraging a certain good be produced, if we know that our nation is abundant or deficient in something?

Uhh yeah you pick what buildings to build and therefore what goods are produced... or am I misunderstanding your question?

Or do you mean raw resources like iron?

dead gay comedy forums
Oct 21, 2011




Hellioning posted:

I cannot wait for a bug in which West Virginia and/or Virginia ends up with too much or too little population and it seems like people either cloned themselves or disappeared.

Or maybe WV will secede from Virginia will literally no people in it.

I swear that pdox figured that out with dynamic state creation somewhere

DrSunshine
Mar 23, 2009

Did I just say that out loud~~?!!!


fuf posted:

Uhh yeah you pick what buildings to build and therefore what goods are produced... or am I misunderstanding your question?

Or do you mean raw resources like iron?

I guess I might have been misunderstanding something. I thought that "private industries" would be built by the capitalist/aristocrat pops, but it's more like "You click 'build Private Industries' in the province"? Basically, instead of choosing whether to build a Fabric Factory or a Glass Factory, it's all lumped into "Private Industries"?

Takanago
Jun 2, 2007

You'll see...


DrSunshine posted:

I guess I might have been misunderstanding something. I thought that "private industries" would be built by the capitalist/aristocrat pops, but it's more like "You click 'build Private Industries' in the province"? Basically, instead of choosing whether to build a Fabric Factory or a Glass Factory, it's all lumped into "Private Industries"?
From the Dev Diary: "Several different types of Private Industries are shown below"

Vasukhani
Jan 13, 2019


hmm this actually looks comprehensable.

worrying!

AnEdgelord
Dec 12, 2016



quote:

To finish up this dev diary I just want to mention that building up your country is meant to be more of a hands-on experience in Victoria 3, as this is absolutely core to the society-building aspect of the game and forms a major part of the game’s core loop. This naturally also means that we need to give the player the necessary tools to manage their buildings in a large empire, which may involve some form of autonomous building construction, though we haven’t yet nailed down exactly what form that would take (and whether it will involve decision making on the part of the investor class). Ultimately though, we want the player, not the AI to be the one primarily in charge of the development of their own country.

I'm a little nervous about this, capitalist pops absolutely should be financing and ordering the construction of some factories and infrastructure since that's exactly what happened in real life, I could buy maybe "steering" them a little bit with government contracts and subsidies but unless you're running a command economy the private sector absolutely should be building stuff in the background with or without your input. Hell though I don't know the exact details of how it would work in the game it would make sense for anarchist societies to have infrastructure and building decisions done by local powers rather than dictates from the extremely weak and/or non-existent central government as well.

CharlestheHammer
Jun 26, 2011

YOU SAY MY POSTS ARE THE RAVINGS OF THE DUMBEST PERSON ON GOD'S GREEN EARTH BUT YOU YOURSELF ARE READING THEM. CURIOUS!


I mean they have already said you will be constructing the buildings using a resource pool the capitalists pay into.

That seems to make capitalism the best system easily but we will see.

Hellioning
Jun 27, 2008



It's realistic that capitalist pops or local communes might control more infrastructure or buildings than the local government, but in practical terms it means that the player's primary form of interacting with something that is 'absolutely core' and 'a major part of the game's core loop' is staring at the screen and hoping the AI doesn't screw you over.

It's realistic but not all that fun.

AnEdgelord
Dec 12, 2016



Hellioning posted:

It's realistic that capitalist pops or local communes might control more infrastructure or buildings than the local government, but in practical terms it means that the player's primary form of interacting with something that is 'absolutely core' and 'a major part of the game's core loop' is staring at the screen and hoping the AI doesn't screw you over.

It's realistic but not all that fun.

But see thats not realistic either, states weren't just helpless as capitalists kept building failed clipper factories regardless of how capitalist they were. Things like subsidies to encourage the production of certain goods as well as government contracts for private companies to build infrastructure are real things that are used to this day and could easily appear in this game, and its not like capitalist states never nationalized anything ever. I should be able to build factories and infrastructure as the state but so long as I'm not a command economy the private sector should be ticking away in the background doing its thing, but if a factory or piece of infrastructure is in the way or inconvenient I should be able to purchase it and demolish it via eminent domain (another good tool to potentially add) or nationalize it and demolish it.

CharlestheHammer
Jun 26, 2011

YOU SAY MY POSTS ARE THE RAVINGS OF THE DUMBEST PERSON ON GOD'S GREEN EARTH BUT YOU YOURSELF ARE READING THEM. CURIOUS!


I mean it sounds like your just advocating the same system but with more period accurate window dressing

Hellioning
Jun 27, 2008



AnEdgelord posted:

But see thats not realistic either, states weren't just helpless as capitalists kept building failed clipper factories regardless of how capitalist they were. Things like subsidies to encourage the production of certain goods as well as government contracts for private companies to build infrastructure are real things that are used to this day and could easily appear in this game, and its not like capitalist states never nationalized anything ever. I should be able to build factories and infrastructure as the state but so long as I'm not a command economy the private sector should be ticking away in the background doing its thing, but if a factory or piece of infrastructure is in the way or inconvenient I should be able to purchase it and demolish it via eminent domain (another good tool to potentially add) or nationalize it and demolish it.

Yeah, that just sounds like the current system with extra steps.

Agean90
Jun 28, 2008




the devs should just go with the one that's the most interesting and ties in the best with the games design goals and let modders do maximum historicity imo

Zeron
Oct 23, 2010


Since buildings seem to be a pretty central part of the game, I trust the team to work hard on making it not a chore to deal with. Having to deal with less micromanagement was like the only reason anyone ever praised capitalists building factroys in Vicky anyway.

Alternatively I wouldn't mind saving capitalists building factroys for like a Corporation DLC that makes big businesses distinct entities that can set up international franchises and affect global politics.

Party In My Diapee
Jan 24, 2014


I vote for the most important things for a great game to be state diplomacy, conflict and imperialism, as well as internal and global politics and ideology connected to pops. Trains and buildings i'm not so worried about.

Raenir Salazar
Nov 5, 2010

USNews: Biden approves $735M weapons sale to Israel


College Slice

I'm with Edgelord, there should be some degree of "capitalists/local communes/local government" doing stuff on its own. It seems to me that the new system as described for V3 removes the jagged edges that made that system screw you over more. If there's no slots than it doesnt matter if capitalists build the wrong thing, if you want to use the common fund to build some things specifically you can; but they can also do stuff on their own? That seems reasonable to me.

Especially upgrades; if there's demand for it but the capacity isnt there, absolutely should let them handle clicking the "Expand" button!

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Beamed
Nov 26, 2010

Then you have a responsibility that no man has ever faced. You have your fear which could become reality, and you have Godzilla, which is reality.




Agean90 posted:

the devs should just go with the one that's the most interesting and ties in the best with the games design goals and let modders do maximum historicity imo

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