|
Snooze Cruise posted:Using Trains as your go to when most people consider it a terrible example of what you are arguring in favor for and a joke is funny Well if most people claim its a bad idea well who am I to argue?  In any case I'm not actually arguing for it, the discussion was originally about maybe it could be interesting if the mechanics that represent slavery (which we already know is being represented because its been in all previous versions of the game) could also represent serfdom.
|
#
?
May 29, 2021 23:38
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 27, 2024 23:31 |
|
|
Raenir Salazar posted:Well if most people claim its a bad idea well who am I to argue? My point is the mechanic in trains is literally just "shove as many people pieces into a train as you can." Everything about the game is to serve for the gotcha at the end, not actually represent anything meaningful. So using it here was silly. Snooze Cruise fucked around with this message at 23:46 on May 29, 2021 |
|
#
?
May 29, 2021 23:43
|
|
|
It's like playing Candyland and at the end revealing the player character developed childhood diabetes.
|
|
#
?
May 29, 2021 23:48
|
|
|
CharlestheHammer posted:You can’t teach people morals through game mechanics. This is a colossally stupid statement. I am willing to believe that you may be personally incapable of learning moral lessons for some reason, but the idea that game mechanics are somehow incompatible with moral education is laughable. OK, maybe Trains is a bad example (never played it, don't know much about it, don't really care) but there are so many other easy examples to reach for. Even staying in the space of board games, arguably the most widely known western board game of the past century was explicitly designed to teach moral and economic lessons through play. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Landlord%27s_Game Whether or not Paradox could or should be trying to teach morals through Grand Strategy games is a different question, but you are coming at it from a position that is patently ridiculous.
|
|
#
?
May 30, 2021 00:24
|
|
|
Ah yes the landlord game a game most famous for becoming a different board game that most people only know for how tedious it was play. Thanks for my point while somehow thinking it helps yours I guess. Like the stupid train game is a better example than that poo poo
|
|
#
?
May 30, 2021 00:31
|
|
|
CharlestheHammer posted:Ah yes the landlord game a game most famous for becoming a different board game that most people only know for how tedious it was to play. Play is not how humans learn and has no effect on the mind, thank you for refuting literal centuries of thought, experience, and observation.
|
|
#
?
May 30, 2021 00:33
|
|
|
Snooze Cruise posted:My point is the mechanic in trains is literally just "shove as many people pieces into a train as you can." Everything about the game is to serve for the gotcha at the end, not actually represent anything meaningful. So using it here was silly. First, there are other examples I can give, like the anti-imperialism messaging of Spec Ops the Line; second I don't believe that's a charitable description, or rather one that misses the forest for the threes. Like that "gotcha" was one millions of real life Germans had went through; who had looked the other way when horrible things were happening. People often ask, "How could this have happened?" "Didn't they know?" and it's a relevant message to learn. The first article I've found I think sums it up well: quote:Train is one in a series of six board games that Romero calls The Mechanic is the Message. The challenge she created for herself was to capture and express difficult emotions with game mechanics... It's a bit reductionist to say it doesn't have anything meaningful to say or isn't a valid example because it's a "gotcha". Spec Ops the Line has a similar gotcha and its no less meaningful as an emotional interactive experience. CharlestheHammer posted:Ah yes the landlord game a game most famous for becoming a different board game that most people only know for how tedious it was play. I'm not sure how exactly you think you're making the point of whether game mechanics can convey moral lessons and its legitimacy as a topic or field within game design.
|
|
#
?
May 30, 2021 00:43
|
|
|
I think spec ops is bad too. I find both disrespectful. Snooze Cruise fucked around with this message at 00:55 on May 30, 2021 |
|
#
?
May 30, 2021 00:45
|
|
|
No, actually, making someone buy a game where you're forced onto a linear path and then getting mad at them for playing that linear path is bad.
|
|
#
?
May 30, 2021 01:11
|
|
|
Hellioning posted:No, actually, making someone buy a game where you're forced onto a linear path and then getting mad at them for playing that linear path is bad. Putting aside that people willingly buy games with linear paths all the time; I don't think there's anyone, anywhere, who is "mad" at someone for playing the game as intended? I have no idea where you're getting that idea and this is increasingly feeling like people are arguing with the shadows in Plato's cave.
|
|
#
?
May 30, 2021 01:18
|
|
|
I have no special belief that atrocities should be shied away from in this game but I think if you are going to do it you need to keep three things in mind: 1. It has to tie back into the game mechanics, particularly the pop mechanics 2. It should have at least some ring of historical truth to it 3. It should be very clear what the incentive is to doing these things and ideally that incentive should map as closely as possible to what the real life incentive was to do it If I am dealing with a troubling population in the Imperial core I should have the option of exiling them to a prison colony because that was an option that existed for the Great Powers and it was used frequently. By the same token if a population is troubling me in a colony I should have the option of enacting brutal repression against that population up to and including genocide, because that is an option that existed for the Great Powers, it was used frequently and to not include it is straight up lying about what colonialism actually was but you also need to be clear that when you are doing that you are doing a genocide.
|
|
#
?
May 30, 2021 01:27
|
|
|
Y'all are wanting to play a historical simulation and are mad about the player doing horrible things? Most people are horrible, and most of our history is one of people doing increasingly brutal things to each other. Those inventions mentioned in one of the trailers like the telegraph was primarily made so people could kill one another more effectively, or otherwise exploit and brutalize others. I don't get the hopeful tone of the trailer, powerful people, especially of that era, don't do good things. Unless they're trying to be ironic or something, I don't know. TwoQuestions fucked around with this message at 01:36 on May 30, 2021 |
|
#
?
May 30, 2021 01:34
|
|
|
Jamsque posted:Even staying in the space of board games, arguably the most widely known western board game of the past century was explicitly designed to teach moral and economic lessons through play. Also Chutes and Ladders, which was allegedly a Buddhist teaching tool. Edit: and obviously the contemporary games An Infamous Traffic and John Company, which both deliberately model morally PerniciousKnid fucked around with this message at 02:05 on May 30, 2021 |
|
#
?
May 30, 2021 01:35
|
|
|
TwoQuestions posted:I don't get the hopeful tone of the trailer, powerful people, especially of that era, don't do good things. Unless they're trying to be ironic or something, I don't know. It's because its a trailer trying to sell you on a video game and not something trying to present a perfectly accurate view of the time period.
|
|
#
?
May 30, 2021 01:44
|
|
|
AnEdgelord posted:I have no special belief that atrocities should be shied away from in this game but I think if you are going to do it you need to keep three things in mind: Quite right, and for my part my concern and contribution is only "if they are going to do it; how could it be done that would be mechanically interesting?" With the focus being on mechanics that convey to the player the feeling and themes of the challenges in running an empire and the costs it entails. And to continue your line of thought, by doing those things you create the material conditions for the populace to gain consciousness about what you're doing, encouraging them to organize and arm themselves; creating the contradictions that eventually leads to the collapse, disintegration and breakup of these various empires. And it could be interesting to provide a variety of options to the player, such as forming self-governing dominions in an effort to avoid the need for such drastic measures. And if you do drastic measures if you could provide a parallel game of being able to play as the resistance/independence movements; playing as for example, the South American revolutions if the start date were earlier, that could be very fun. It could also be interesting, in the event of say, a socialist revolution in a country, if most of the capitalist/aristocrats actually straight up got exiled/fled to other countries, forming an interest group demanding intervention/liberation of their homeland as they radicalize other reactionaries in their host countries; making it difficult to work with or ally with that nation without paying a political price to mollify them. But this can be avoided if the socialist nation player doesn't go super hard bolshevikism on their upper class, and if they do say, democratic socialism instead and don't confiscate the property of landlords doesn't end up causing this emmigration/exile that causes other nations to be forced to take a anti-red stance. e to add: and to be clear, this isn't about trying to "super accurately" represent the time period; only suggesting that the game in a hypothetical ideal state could in one's purely personal and subjective opinion might be more engaging to play, if it aimed for a more "hollistic" simulation of what is more ultimately a versimilitudist experience. It isn't about accuracy but immersion; and merely discussing mechanics that in a hollistic way, help convey that sense of versimilitude and immersion; through how systems are presented and depicted through the mechanics. Raenir Salazar fucked around with this message at 01:49 on May 30, 2021 |
|
#
?
May 30, 2021 01:45
|
|
|
TwoQuestions posted:Y'all are wanting to play a historical simulation and are mad about the player doing horrible things? Most people are horrible, and most of our history is one of people doing increasingly brutal things to each other. Those inventions mentioned in one of the trailers like the telegraph was primarily made so people could kill one another more effectively, or otherwise exploit and brutalize others. Well the issue is games/media implicitly influence peoples' perception of history. Just consider how many peoples' perception of the American war in Vietnam is shaped by movies. I don't think they are able to engage with those topics, they are simply too dark and real, but not engaging with them also may lead players to an implicit understanding of events that verges on apologia.
|
|
#
?
May 30, 2021 02:08
|
|
|
CharlestheHammer posted:You can’t teach people morals through game mechanics. People don’t play Crusader Kings and go wow royal politics where hosed up. Or you don't do those things because you aren't a morally bankrupt individual and conquer the contentment anyways because you're a human being playing against a Paradox AI.
|
|
#
?
May 30, 2021 02:33
|
|
|
Mantis42 posted:It's like playing Candyland and at the end revealing the player character developed childhood diabetes. that’ll teach ‘em for going through the licorice lagoon
|
|
#
?
May 30, 2021 03:01
|
|
|
We should introduce Matty Y to Victoria  https://twitter.com/mattyglesias/status/1398767305891495938
|
|
#
?
May 30, 2021 03:06
|
|
|
Looking forward to paying for a future Republic of Texas DLC.
|
|
#
?
May 30, 2021 03:15
|
|
|
Charlz Guybon posted:We should introduce Matty Y to Victoria My first thought is, "Haha that's pretty funny" but reading the replies, is he serious?
|
|
#
?
May 30, 2021 03:25
|
|
|
I hope I can play the Kingdom of Hawaii and tell the US or Japan or whoever to kick rocks as I bunker down and cultivate my socialist island utopia free from the vices of modern civilization.
|
|
#
?
May 30, 2021 03:26
|
|
|
Raenir Salazar posted:My first thought is, "Haha that's pretty funny" but reading the replies, is he serious? impossible to tell with matty y. it's probably a semi-ironic dig at zionists asserting israel's right to "self defense," but I'm sure he at least partially believes that austria-hungary did nothing wrong. and the pro-habsburg crowd online is definitely too stupid to detect irony.
|
|
#
?
May 30, 2021 03:30
|
|
|
Super Jay Mann posted:I hope I can play the Kingdom of Hawaii and tell the US or Japan or whoever to kick rocks as I bunker down and cultivate my socialist island utopia free from the vices of modern civilization. It could be interesting if the politics system is nuanced enough where a more stern US government could take the political hit to arrest the people who invaded Hawaii; as what initially happened was the US government refused to recognize it until the next administration which went and retroactively legitimized it. IIRC. Dr. Video Games 0031 posted:impossible to tell with matty y. it's probably a semi-ironic dig at zionists asserting israel's right to "self defense," but I'm sure he at least partially believes that austria-hungary did nothing wrong. and the pro-habsburg crowd online is definitely too stupid to detect irony. There's an argument to be made that Austria was in the right to some form of concession from the Serbian government who had been egging on those nationalist elements for a while and world opinion was actually against Serbia as a result; but of course Austria made its ultimatum in bad faith as they were being urged by Germany to find an excuse to strike at Serbia by any means.
|
|
#
?
May 30, 2021 03:54
|
|
|
he’s an absolute dipshit and he probably just happened to finished reading the sleepwalkers and totally misunderstood it
|
|
#
?
May 30, 2021 04:07
|
|
|
I haven't been legitimately hyped for a game for years, I thought I had perhaps outgrown it. Nope, Vicky 3 got me.
|
|
#
?
May 30, 2021 04:22
|
|
|
Baronjutter posted:I haven't been legitimately hyped for a game for years, I thought I had perhaps outgrown it. Nope, Vicky 3 got me. I keep trying to talk myself down. I've been burned on hype a lot in the past. And it's Paradox. They could drop the ball in any number of ways, resulting in something wonky and imperfect in a worst case scenario. But Victoria 2 was deeply flawed, and it's still my favorite thing. Even if they fail to deliver the Perfect Game, Paradox can be counted on to make something that improves on Victoria 2, which means Victoria 3 will be one of my favorite games ever. And you know, with Wiz's game design values, and everything they've said they're aiming for, I think a lot of pitfalls will be avoided. I have a hard time imagining a Victoria 3 that isn't going to be amazing (after the bugs are worked out). It's pretty exciting!
|
|
#
?
May 30, 2021 05:01
|
|
|
Eiba posted:Same. Same! I actually haven't been playing much Paradox games for awhile cause of all the bad releases but the V3 announcement got me to pick EUIV back up and put another hundred hours into it.
|
|
#
?
May 30, 2021 05:18
|
|
|
Charlz Guybon posted:We should introduce Matty Y to Victoria
|
|
#
?
May 30, 2021 06:25
|
|
|
Friendly reminder that lol, the actual current habsburg pretender gets in twitter slapfights about monarchism and inbreeding
|
|
#
?
May 30, 2021 09:41
|
|
|
Will admit to being pretty pumped for the release of Victoria 3, which is at least a year away. Loving the coverage of the not-implemented systems though
|
|
#
?
May 30, 2021 10:07
|
|
|
Edgar Allen Ho posted:Friendly reminder that lol, the actual current habsburg pretender gets in twitter slapfights about monarchism and inbreeding Pretty much all the deposed royal families do except the ones who were dealt with in a more permanent way like Russia, Vietnam, China etc. Gotta wipe em out, buy em out, or aggressively brainwash them and their progeny otherwise you end up with Pahlavis and Hapsburgs running around everywhere lobbying and complaining on twitter.
|
|
#
?
May 30, 2021 11:38
|
|
|
Zedhe Khoja posted:Pretty much all the deposed royal families do except the ones who were dealt with in a more permanent way like Russia, Vietnam, China etc. Gotta wipe em out, buy em out, or aggressively brainwash them and their progeny otherwise you end up with Pahlavis and Hapsburgs running around everywhere lobbying and complaining on twitter. It's pretty pathetic, to be honest. You have these people who used to, literally, own a country like it was their own single family home or something, and being all like "Hey you know, you guys, my family used to own this whole country, you people used to belong to me! Pretty rad, huh?? Too bad about what happened..."
|
|
#
?
May 30, 2021 14:12
|
|
|
Are they gonna be simulating imperialism as just giant scale theft and murder? If not lol And the UK will definitely be needing some kinda race science technology
|
|
#
?
May 30, 2021 14:35
|
|
|
CharlestheHammer posted:Ah yes the landlord game a game most famous for becoming a different board game that most people only know for how tedious it was play. You seem to think everyone min-maxes every game they play. I've never turned into the evil despot that most goons seem to do the moment they play a 4x. That's on you guys. Now I don't really ever do well in those games. I have fun but I undoubtedly could do better if I maximised my industry by enslaving everyone. But that's not what I want my 'empire' to be so I never do. To say games don't teach you morals is to imply that the only teaching is outright weird parochial teaching session where it goes 'doing slavery is bad'. When actually there's a lot to be said by teaching via experience. I tried playing a mean old goon-style nightmare empire and it means everything you achieve is built on more and more oppression that scales up as your empire expands. And it made me feel bad. If you're incapable of this level of immersion and/or emotional feedback then eh... if all you see is number go up, we might as well be aliens that don't understand each others language. And all you people that ever killed half-breed priscilla for her scythe... fuk u!
|
|
#
?
May 30, 2021 15:35
|
|
|
Same. I've always built paradise-like garden cities in Tropico and made my GP Bavaria in V2 to be a socialist utopia, and it makes me feel happy to imagine these imaginary people living in a utopia. 
|
|
#
?
May 30, 2021 15:43
|
|
|
If the mechanics in the game don’t cover the reasons that slavery and serfdom where eventually abolished that would be a regression from the previous games. Heck it already sounds like they have systems that grapple with abolishment. Reactionary aristos will want to keep the pops they own to work the fields so they will oppose reforms that would make life better for other low strata pops. Additionally slaves/serfs are terrible for factory work so their presence will slow industrialization. They will oppose reform efforts and (I would assume) launch revolts if you push them enough. In the long run of the game you will need to deal with your reactionary aristocracy. How you do that (  ) is why it’s a game. Anyway the better question is how will they deal with China! Because the true v2 nightmare scenario was a westernized China...
|
|
#
?
May 30, 2021 16:02
|
|
|
everydayfalls posted:Anyway the better question is how will they deal with China! Because the true v2 nightmare scenario was a westernized China... Victoria 3: Everything We Know So Far posted:States like the Qing will begin with massive, sprawling bureaucracies that have a significant impact on their playstyle. They have a huge population in their Incorporated States day one, which is a colossal bureaucratic sink before you even start adding Institutions on top. You probably can't bring 100% education access to everyone in China because it would take an absurd amount of bureaucratic investment, while smaller nations will have a much easier time doing this.
|
|
#
?
May 30, 2021 17:10
|
|
|
Regarde Aduck posted:To say games don't teach you morals is to imply that the only teaching is outright weird parochial teaching session where it goes 'doing slavery is bad'. It's not Stellaris, it's a game about a particular period in history. Paradox's previous games have attempted (and mostly succeeded!) to make the player feel the pressures that pushed actual rulers and nations into doing the things they did, and posed the actual pressures that made liberal reforms difficult. People are reasonably hoping Vic3 continues in this trend, and speculating about how Paradox might go about doing so.
|
|
#
?
May 30, 2021 17:43
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 27, 2024 23:31 |
|
|
Cease to Hope posted:It's not Stellaris, it's a game about a particular period in history. Paradox's previous games have attempted (and mostly succeeded!) to make the player feel the pressures that pushed actual rulers and nations into doing the things they did, and posed the actual pressures that made liberal reforms difficult. People are reasonably hoping Vic3 continues in this trend, and speculating about how Paradox might go about doing so. I believe what they're saying is games can convey themes that can provoke thought in the player; and for them this happened to be with Stellaris. By extension they are agreeing this is also possible with the other paradox games / re: vicky 3. Which is consistent with what you're saying that they are agreeing with that we hope for Vicky 3 (and speculating on the mechanisms) to be able to continue to go about making people feel those pressures because it makes the player think about things. I don't think there's any disagreement there, and that their example happened to use stellaris, that one game is historical and another is scifi doesn't mean its less capable of conveying interesting ideas.
|
|
#
?
May 30, 2021 18:10
|
|