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You should be able to build the aristocratic slave society the southern planters always wished for but it should utterly cripple your economy and doom you to lag behind the Industrial Empires to the point that they start eyeing you up as somewhere to carve colonial holdings out of.
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Sep 16, 2021 03:10
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I can't wait for someone to make a Harry Turtledove type mod where all the slave pops in the South are Dixie and all the aristocrats are Afro-Caribbean.
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Sep 16, 2021 05:06
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AnEdgelord posted:You should be able to build the aristocratic slave society the southern planters always wished for but it should utterly cripple your economy and doom you to lag behind the Industrial Empires to the point that they start eyeing you up as somewhere to carve colonial holdings out of. That's called roleplaying and playing tall. You minmaxers will never understand, you only care about growing numbers and painting the map! (That was sarcasm. I have accepted that no matter how ridiculous are the things I say there is always someone who could say exact same thing unironically.)
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Sep 16, 2021 10:00
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Really a shame that the game doesn't begin in 1815. 1837 is definitely too late to derail the Civil War. The latest would be the 1832 vote in the Virginia House on abolishing slavery. It was surprisingly close.
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Sep 16, 2021 10:43
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Game option to add time-traveling south african pops to the south
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Sep 16, 2021 11:47
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logger posted:I can't wait for someone to make a Harry Turtledove type mod where all the slave pops in the South are Dixie and all the aristocrats are Afro-Caribbean.
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Sep 16, 2021 14:16
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Charlz Guybon posted:Really a shame that the game doesn't begin in 1815. 1837 is definitely too late to derail the Civil War. The latest would be the 1832 vote in the Virginia House on abolishing slavery. It was surprisingly close. i kinda feel that the US being trapped in a no-win slavery situation is required for balance. a player that solves the slavery problem before it becomes a crisis could probably easily manifest destiny across all the americas with ease
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Sep 16, 2021 14:19
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AAAAA! Real Muenster posted:Wait did Harry go that far? I think the Axis-aligned confederacy from that series ends up having a black communist revolution as the union beats its rear end.
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Sep 16, 2021 14:21
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hot cocoa on the couch posted:i kinda feel that the US being trapped in a no-win slavery situation is required for balance. a player that solves the slavery problem before it becomes a crisis could probably easily manifest destiny across all the americas with ease Just hard code the AI to not abolish it without a war. If only the player can do it and it's not easy, that's fine.
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Sep 16, 2021 14:29
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hot cocoa on the couch posted:i kinda feel that the US being trapped in a no-win slavery situation is required for balance. a player that solves the slavery problem before it becomes a crisis could probably easily manifest destiny across all the americas with ease We're talking about a series where Uruguay could easily become a continent spanning superpower with 200 million people.
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Sep 16, 2021 14:33
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OctaviusBeaver posted:We're talking about a series where Uruguay could easily become a continent spanning superpower with 200 million people. i know, i don't hold the opinion particularly strongly, i just mean a vicky game where the US doesn't have to seriously grapple with the slavery crisis feels weird i guess?
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Sep 16, 2021 14:36
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Charlz Guybon posted:Really a shame that the game doesn't begin in 1815. 1837 is definitely too late to derail the Civil War. The latest would be the 1832 vote in the Virginia House on abolishing slavery. It was surprisingly close. I'm guessing there's going to be a growing interest group opposed to slavery that will necessarily get more political power and influence as you industrialize, and a powerful interest group of mostly aristocrats who strongly oppose the abolition of slavery, with a lot of influence at the start of the game, but diminishing influence as aristocrats themselves are made less relevant by the game's mechanics. When abolition reaches a level of influence where it's politically more popular to abolish slavery, you better hope the aristocrats aren't radicalized enough to start a civil war. The ways around this are to pander to the aristocrats in other ways, or side with them long enough that they're too irrelevant to start a war, pissing off the other interest groups in your country but hopefully not bad enough to radicalize them and start a reverse Civil War. Abolishing slavery early will probably be very difficult because the political power of the aristocrats is going to be even stronger earlier on. I'm sure we'll hear more about it in a couple hours, but I was really excited when they explained the interest group system because it sounded like it was specifically designed to create an organic US Civil War, without need for events or scripting, and with logical/dynamic ways to influence the process in the context of this game.
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Sep 16, 2021 14:44
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Make so the ai can't defuse the civil war just so players have a chance to gently caress with the USA if they're another north American nation. Leaving it as a cool trick the player can do if things go extremely good is fine
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Sep 16, 2021 14:53
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Agean90 posted:Make so the ai can't defuse the civil war just so players have a chance to gently caress with the USA if they're another north American nation. Leaving it as a cool trick the player can do if things go extremely good is fine Why do "can't" when the AI without any additional effort on Paradox's part already won't?  AnEdgelord posted:You should be able to build the aristocratic slave society the southern planters always wished for but it should utterly cripple your economy and doom you to lag behind the Industrial Empires to the point that they start eyeing you up as somewhere to carve colonial holdings out of. From what it seems like this should be something that can be modeled. An aristocratic slaver society is going to end up putting most of its surplus wealth into industrial investments elsewhere in the country with higher returns thereby sowing the seeds of their own destruction as industrialization continues to massively lag behind the rest of the country/world. Basically if you can model "Dutch Disease" but with the mercantalist cash crop/extraction industries that the south was mostly oriented towards exporting for you can create the sort of economic feedback loop where their cash crops crowd out longer term infrastructure or investment. I imagine it could also be possible that if you do try to split the baby and industrialize and use slave pops in factories you'll just make your free citizens angrier as they can't compete for jobs in factories and migration to cities slows as there's no jobs. Since there's a lack of urbanization, literacy rates will be lower resulting in less clerks/etc that generate research, contributing to ever falling increasingly behind more urbanized, more industrialized nations. The lack of industry and research should also result in an increasing reliance of imports on manufactured goods such as weapons and consumer products which increases the political influence those industrialized nations have over you due to the trade imbalance; at some point no matter how hard you try to double down your domestic political situation will have its hand forced by outside pressures. So your options are either double down and become a backwater or try to industrialize and have your own civil war labour based abolition movement. Has there been enough details about railroads to know if its going to be like V2 where you just wanna carpet them all over the map or is there going to be something closer to real life where the railroads were made to accompany economic activity and resulting in vastly different networks depending if you were industrialized and invested into manufactures or if you were primarily extraction based? This resulted in vastly different rail networks between say, Great Britain proper and most of its colonial holdings. Even in the US it was very different between the North and South and it really showed.
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Sep 16, 2021 15:59
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HoI's last diary was about rail guns so if V3 doesn't launch with a train designer, and a track designer, we riot
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Sep 16, 2021 16:02
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It should be impossible to use slave labor in any production methods much more advanced than handicrafts and manual agricultural labor. Which, yeah, pretty naturally should lead to slave societies stagnating and being unable to industrialize, with all the money from raw materials export getting spent on big mansions and fancy parties for the aristocrats rather than capitalists using wage labor who spend their profits on more capital and start the accumulation feedback loop. Slave societies can't accumulate industrial capital, you need a certain amount of transportation infrastructure to get your cotton to the nearest port but that's about it, the rest goes into paying your goons with guns and fancy parties for yourself. Schools and railroads and factories would be either a waste or actively counterproductive for slave-owning aristos to spend their money on.
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Sep 16, 2021 16:05
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Like basically it seems like at a minimum railways require maintenance and pops to work them; so I'm hoping that plus what the expected returns on that investment is results in people making their rail networks something that resembles a network and not just "mass transit but with trains" which historically in the US was a bubble that popped and a lot of railways went bankrupt. Railways having not just maintenance but an concept of how profitable a section of track or a line is, which encourages you to be optimal for your situation, to encourage you to close down lines you don't need until your wealthy enough that it doesn't matter if capitalist/investor pops can't make the profit needed to keep them open. Which reminds me that it would be neat if mid to late game as the stock market becomes a thing that a wider array of pops can invest savings into it; which would help model just how destructive a bubble bursting or market crash can be if it wipes their savings making them angry and radicalized very quickly. Crazycryodude posted:It should be impossible to use slave labor in any production methods much more advanced than handicrafts and manual agricultural labor. Uh. It isn't though?
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Sep 16, 2021 16:09
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:HoI's last diary was about rail guns so if V3 doesn't launch with a train designer, and a track designer, we riot Going to need to direct the Soviet forces from my armored train with printing press. Also going to need to manage 3 different incompatible rail gauges through my march to Berlin.
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Sep 16, 2021 16:56
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https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/developer-diary/victoria-3-dev-diary-15-slavery.1490983/ I'm actually really impressed by this implementation. Slavery benefits solely...aristocrats, who grow wealthy and powerful. The actual nation has no way of seeing any benefit from it without taxing the aristocrats..who are powerful and wealthy and can make things really unpleasant for the government. But if you want to run a very reactionary state, slavery will prop up the aristocrats who you can use to support your reactionary measures. Meanwhile any other country will presumably be working on slowly reducing aristocrat importance until they can get away with banning slavery. Although portraits for slave pops...I feel like that's uncomfortable because there will be groups that appeals to, but dehumanization is another problem I guess. Not sure there. Edit: Here's some random dev posts I haven't seen mentioned. lachek posted:There will not be an internal slave trade system, at least not at launch. It is something we really do want to add in, because as you say it is an important dynamic to consider when trying to fully deconstruct the economic beneficiaries and political support for the institution of slavery. But it's one thing to represent that there is a slave trade going on through moving people around the world in response to laws and economic demand, and a whole other quagmire to actually represent people with price tags on them - in an economics-focused game - in a way that doesn't trivialize the topic. So we might go there eventually if we can find a good way to represent it, but for the moment we've accepted not being able to model this. lachek posted:The way this is modeled is via subject relationships, for example via Spain and Cuba. Slavery is outlawed in Spain but permitted in Cuba, which is a colonial subject of Spain. lachek posted:At the moment we only use Political Movements for Pop desires that relate to Laws. Other desires, such as independence, is modeled differently. lachek posted:We'll talk more about technology in another Dev Diary, but our general approach to techs is that they should unlock things, not impose automatic, instant change across your whole country as soon as you get access to them. Most technological change comes with some sort of cost, or at least impact. For example, a more efficient Production Method might come with a new input goods cost or a decreased workforce who need new employment. So I'll hedge this response by first saying that our aim is that even if you can plow through the tech tree early, you should still have to struggle to implement all those novelties by game end. Oh an explanation on why they stopped using ledgers lachek posted:Our approach here is to actually try to figure out what information is relevant to a player in which contexts and provide that, rather than a ledger filled with raw numbers. The latter would be much easier (text-based infodumps are dead simple) but Zeron fucked around with this message at 17:44 on Sep 16, 2021 |
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Sep 16, 2021 17:17
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Really interested in "interests" they hint at in the slavery diary.
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Sep 16, 2021 17:27
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Wonder how similar serfdom is going to be handled as a pop? Maybe they can have higher standards of living, but still can't change profession or get wages?
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Sep 16, 2021 17:46
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Capfalcon posted:Wonder how similar serfdom is going to be handled as a pop? Maybe they can have higher standards of living, but still can't change profession or get wages? Ah they just answered this, here you go. lachek posted:On Serfdom:
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Sep 16, 2021 18:02
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Zeron posted:Ah they just answered this, here you go. "Peasants with extra restrictions that are hard to promote" seems pretty reasonable!
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Sep 16, 2021 18:07
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lachek posted:In brief - and to also answer all the questions about "who would be enslaved if I instituted Slavery in my nation that started without it" - this is exactly how Slaves enter your country under Slave Trade, yes. Slaves only come into existence through Debt Slavery and the natural Pop Growth of Slaves under Slave Trade. If a country has no Slaves, and pass Slave Trade, they will start importing Slaves from countries with Debt Slavery. This is interesting. I guess that means the global population of slaves will be pretty static and generally decreasing. Prevents all the fantasies people on the paradox forums are having about enslaving their favorite undesirables at least. I guess you could theoretically just do debt slavery and manipulate laws/discrimination to get certain people into slavery and then change to a harsher slavery law. Edit: Also they've confirmed that you can get casus belli to invade countries to force them to abolish slavery, and that it pisses off the relevant interest groups too. So they can fall into a civil war over slavery right after. Zeron fucked around with this message at 18:35 on Sep 16, 2021 |
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Sep 16, 2021 18:17
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Zeron posted:This is interesting. I guess that means the global population of slaves will be pretty static and generally decreasing. Prevents all the fantasies people on the paradox forums are having about enslaving their favorite undesirables at least. I guess you could theoretically just do debt slavery and manipulate laws/discrimination to get certain people into slavery and then change to a harsher slavery law. this will absolutely not stop me from enslaving all anglos the world over
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Sep 16, 2021 18:21
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lhu4T_vwxIU e: I wonder how colonies will be represented when a nation has banned slavery but practice it outside of borders. I don't remember how V2 had done it. (I was thinking of Congo Free State, but it looks like it took a lot longer for Belgium to outlaw slavery compared to its neighbors...looks like Italy kept slavery in Somaliland but didn't have it in Eritrea as one example.) e2: VV thanks! missed it. guidoanselmi fucked around with this message at 20:13 on Sep 16, 2021 |
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Sep 16, 2021 19:00
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guidoanselmi posted:e: I wonder how colonies will be represented when a nation has banned slavery but practice it outside of borders. I don't remember how V2 had done it. lachek posted:
Takanago fucked around with this message at 19:42 on Sep 16, 2021 |
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Sep 16, 2021 19:40
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I wonder how Ottoman bureaucrats/Jannisaries will be handled, who (if my understanding of history is correct) had decent to high status, but still didn't have the freedom to change jobs, and were referred to as "slaves of the Sultan". Would this be a weird form of serfdom?
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Sep 16, 2021 19:51
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TwoQuestions posted:I wonder how Ottoman bureaucrats/Jannisaries will be handled, who (if my understanding of history is correct) had decent to high status, but still didn't have the freedom to change jobs, and were referred to as "slaves of the Sultan". Would this be a weird form of serfdom? This strikes me as the sort of thing that is unlikely to be modelled in the game at launch just because it's so culturally specific. Although I suppose they could have some kind of "social mobility" law that would govern if pops are allowed to change jobs in general, which may apply to a few other countries that also had very rigid class structures, like the British Raj and Japan at the very start of the game.
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Sep 16, 2021 20:08
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I wonder if the debt slavery laws will include people being made slaves through warfare or raiding/kidnapping. Historically that was a hugely important part of the Atlantic slave trade which destabilized African societies as violence increased to meet the demand for slaves. Although the worst of that was before Victoria's time frame, if the game allows the possibility of moving backwards it would be relevant.
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Sep 16, 2021 21:19
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to be extremely pedantic, didn't France reinstitute slavery after Napoleon tool over? I guess that's handled by subject laws though
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Sep 16, 2021 21:23
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Hallucinogenic Toreador posted:I wonder if the debt slavery laws will include people being made slaves through warfare or raiding/kidnapping. Historically that was a hugely important part of the Atlantic slave trade which destabilized African societies as violence increased to meet the demand for slaves. Although the worst of that was before Victoria's time frame, if the game allows the possibility of moving backwards it would be relevant. There's also the fact that colonial powers who abolished slavery still kinda sorta had slaves. Like iirc the majority of combat dead in the african theatre of the Great War were african porters rather than german, british, or portuguese soldiers, or for that matter african colonial soldiers. All of the porters were volunteers who absolutely loved their jobs I'm sure, no coercion, nope, no slaves there. StashAugustine posted:to be extremely pedantic, didn't France reinstitute slavery after Napoleon tool over? I guess that's handled by subject laws though Yeah, the First Republic abolished it in 1794 and Napoléon brought it back in 1802. It was only ever abolished in the caribbean colonies though. It never went away in the (still extant- along with Guyane... and Martinique... and Guadeloupe...  ) Indian Ocean colonies, and never really existed in mainland France.
Edgar Allen Ho fucked around with this message at 21:40 on Sep 16, 2021 |
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Sep 16, 2021 21:32
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It seems like in V3 that'll mainly be handled through discrimination. Once you free the slaves, if you take no other steps they'll have no qualifications and still be heavily discriminated against so they aren't going to be able to move up in standard of living for a long time.
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Sep 16, 2021 21:41
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Zeron posted:It seems like in V3 that'll mainly be handled through discrimination. Once you free the slaves, if you take no other steps they'll have no qualifications and still be heavily discriminated against so they aren't going to be able to move up in standard of living for a long time. Discriminated Pops are possibly less likely to be hired compared to their non-discriminated counterparts (while also having lesser Wealth and Qualifications and all what stems from those) so spiral of lagging behind comes very naturally. Don't get hired (because of discrimination), don't get more wealthy, can't get better Qualifications, can't get hired (because of lack of Qualifications)...
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Sep 16, 2021 22:04
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The casual mention that quality of life is still going to be real bad for former slave pops until you reform your discrimination laws is so depressing. There's a button you can press to just "reform your discrimination laws" and the US didn't press it until the 19 loving 60s.
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Sep 17, 2021 03:49
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Eiba posted:The casual mention that quality of life is still going to be real bad for former slave pops until you reform your discrimination laws is so depressing. There's a button you can press to just "reform your discrimination laws" and the US didn't press it until the 19 loving 60s. I always thought reconstruction was trying to do that (and failing).
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Sep 17, 2021 04:16
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Beefeater1980 posted:I always thought reconstruction was trying to do that (and failing). It would've gone a hell of a lot better if Andrew Johnson wasnt an absolute moron who thought pardoning the rebels and recognizing the Confederate state governments as the legitimate state governments was a good idea. After that it was extremely hard for the congressional Republicans to undo the damage.
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Sep 17, 2021 04:20
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It turns out that when you fight a civil war and then just let the political blocs of the rebel faction just move back into power, you could wind up with Jim Crow and sharecropping I’m sure this was due to incompetence and not deliberate in any way!
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Sep 17, 2021 05:06
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LonsomeSon posted:It turns out that when you fight a civil war and then just let the political blocs of the rebel faction just move back into power, you could wind up with Jim Crow and sharecropping It was both, Johnson thought he could create a third party that he could ride to his next term via allying with the southern planters and appealing to the poor southern whites but the planters just thanked him for all his help and promptly left him out to dry.
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Sep 17, 2021 05:11
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AnEdgelord posted:It would've gone a hell of a lot better if Andrew Johnson wasnt an absolute moron who thought pardoning the rebels and recognizing the Confederate state governments as the legitimate state governments was a good idea. After that it was extremely hard for the congressional Republicans to undo the damage. The thing about Johnson is that he was actually a Democrat, and was always a massive racist who favoured the slave states, but did not want to simply allow the Confederacy to secede as their own nation, even if he ultimately didn't really disagree with any of their general beliefs. Lincoln ran with him as a running mate to run a "national unity" campaign, and as VP he probably wouldn't have done that much damage but then Lincoln went to see a play.
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Sep 17, 2021 05:19
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