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Jazerus
May 24, 2011



arcanum mod when

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Jazerus
May 24, 2011



Digital Osmosis posted:

never mind, looks like Paradox isn't serious about their economic simulation at all. Capitalists choosing to invest profits into the wider society? loving ludicrous

governments of that era were somewhat more effective at extracting surplus from capitalists than many modern governments, and when things like railroads were both "good for wider society" and extremely profitable, they were indeed the target of tons of investment. one of the strangest thing about the 1800s is witnessing capitalism in its semi-functional, tightly controlled early state rather than the decrepit shambling corpse we're all used to

Jazerus
May 24, 2011



Wiz posted:

Not my fault you guys aren't asking the important questions

do you understand the schleswig-holstein question

Jazerus
May 24, 2011



Wiz posted:

(Also, just a heads up that there are a lot of questions I will not answer at this point due to there being things we're not ready to talk about yet)

ah i see, schleswig-holstein is top secret

Jazerus
May 24, 2011



Vivian Darkbloom posted:

It seems like you could reasonably start the game in 1825, which is about when the independence wars in Spanish America wound down. Did something special happen in 1836 for the sake of the game?

well, victoria ascended to the throne in 1837

Jazerus
May 24, 2011



ThatBasqueGuy posted:

The obvious takeaway was that Versaillis was too lenient, i'm gonna shatter germany

just make sure that germany never forms at all. no germany, no problem (there will still probably be problems)

Jazerus
May 24, 2011



Dirk Pitt posted:

Spending a lot of dev time modeling a perfectly simulated Japan for people who really like James Clavell/body pillows is insanity. Simulate it with pops and move on.

you could say the same about literally any place on earth getting special mechanics or a detailed starting scenario.

why bother modeling the process of german unification in exacting detail for people who really like their bismarck body pillows? and yet i think it's 100% certain that they will be doing that.

Jazerus
May 24, 2011



PittTheElder posted:

Just based on the experience of other Paradox titles, the hard thing is going to be finding a way to stop every war from turning into a total war as the AI (and player) throw every army they have into every fight.

fortunately vicky has a built-in solution to this; your manpower is drawn from pops and getting soldiers killed can have real demographic effects on your nation. you're encouraged to think about your level of commitment much more than in other paradox games, where soldiers are magical extra dudes that live only for war

there's a reason people clamor for paradox to include real pop systems every time they announce a new game; a lot of ahistorical problems with the standard paradox gameplay go away when your people are a real factor in how you play

Jazerus fucked around with this message at 03:06 on May 27, 2021

Jazerus
May 24, 2011



Agean90 posted:

You forgot giving the first option a bump in militancy

This means that in vicky2 actually improving your country requires you to take the first option because politicians don't support changes unless your people are pissed off.

tbf this is basically accurate to how the politics of the era worked. of course, all of those absolute monarchs took the high militancy options because they were deeply reactionary rather than because they were crypto-socialists, unlike the typical v2 player's strategy of dragging out the resolution of the political question (i.e. giving liberals a huge middle finger because laissez faire sucks) in order to gin up enough fear in the ruling class to make them cave on the social question

my favorite absurd thing about v2 is that you can choose a socialist ruling party as an absolute monarch in europe without having austria or prussia come down on you like a ton of bricks. there's no sense that the various powers are ideologically committed in any way, which couldn't be further from the overall historical narrative of the 19th century

Jazerus fucked around with this message at 04:49 on May 28, 2021

Jazerus
May 24, 2011



goddammit i hate the liberals and the UK in V2. cruising along toward making colombia a great power when i get hit with the double-whammy of being sphered and forced into laissez faire by a liberal party. now all of my goods sell for pennies to london, my beautiful industrial sector is in freefall, and britain seized a province to make a stupid canal for imperialists

game is good can't wait for V3

Jazerus
May 24, 2011



Raenir Salazar posted:

On the other hand, its also a very inefficient economy with a lot of wasted pops working in unprofitable factories for the sole purpose of "make number bigger" (quotas) and a LF economy with comparable population but with enough sufficient literacy and a critical mass of capitalists is going to outperform planned economy nearly everytime. And of course the constant rebellions a Prol. Dictatorship has to inevitably deal with. I can see it happening because there can be times it hits too close to home.

the factories are supposed to be "unprofitable". they are being run for the benefit of the people not the state, to produce goods for internal consumption. feeding internal consumption and getting industrial points to become/stay a GP are by far the most important role factories play throughout most of the campaign for most tags in V2; you might make more in tax revenue from a late-game LF economy, but it's not flatly superior because the capitalists are very stupid and producing for profit is very volatile so factories close all the time and have to be reopened by pouring money in, which also takes them back to level 1, wasting even more money, and your craftsmen will be constantly facing cycles of unemployment that waste the potential of their labor. admittedly i haven't played as a top-5 great power like the UK or Prussia in years so maybe the conditions are there for a smoothly running LF economy in those tags, but that's a rare exception founded more on the fruits of imperialism than anything superior about LF itself

Jazerus
May 24, 2011



Popoto posted:

Whelp, reinstalled vic2. Whatís the current good mod for it? Last time I played was with the beta patch and things seemed fine, but Iíve seen people play on streams from time to time with loads of decisions to take and such.

greater flavour mod. it's a fork of HPM that has continued development until the present day whereas HPM was finished a few years ago

Vasukhani posted:

HPM is the best imo, the only eughghh thing is the changing of clergy to "intellectuals" although I guess it doesnt make sense to have 4% clergy in your communist mali

i never thought it made sense to have clergy as the only instrument for raising literacy anyway. a more general intellectual class was decidedly missing from the game

Jazerus
May 24, 2011



Star posted:

You know it's a good mod when it's over 1 GB in size.

every single bit of the bloat is flags

Jazerus
May 24, 2011



Kraftwerk posted:

How does the economy work in this game?

Like in Victoria II I was never really sure how exactly you built wealth. My goal was always to try and build domestic production of all goods and I found what I got was a bunch of unproductive factories and a lot of sunk costs.

I couldn't "visualize" the global market and how the goods physically moved between the different countries nor how many of those goods were available in total for import/export.

So basically I build furniture factories in wood producing regions, glass factories where I had coal and so on. I had no idea whether I was consuming more raw materials than I produced and only assumed that goods would neatly flow from the raw material sites to the production sites at minimal cost.

How are you actually supposed to plan these things?

you were basically doing the right thing, you want as many factories as possible to receive the bonuses from having raw resources or other factories present in the state. you can roughly discern your balance of import/export/consumption/production with the trade panel on the top bar - not the trade window itself, which is an incomprehensible mass of price statistics that are mostly not very informative, but the panel. it shows your top 3 imports and top 3 exports, so you know what you need and what you're selling. if you're selling lots of raw materials, you could probably benefit by making factories that use those materials so that your top exports are finished goods instead. conversely, your top imports are a guide for which nations you should conquer or sphere so as to get their goods cheaply.

many factories will be unprofitable at first until you get input/output efficiency bonuses and that is okay. they are still serving a role by providing goods to your pops that they might not be able to afford to import, or producing military goods that you might otherwise never be able to buy in a timely fashion.

as far as getting money into your own hands to spend on stuff, heavy taxation can be a burden to pops early on that prevents them from promoting, but once you have your specialist pops like clergy and bureaucrats at decent levels, you can turn the taxes up and never look back. things which increase the amount of wealth that pops get will also boost your treasury, like minimum wage reforms.

as far as "visualizing" the market and how things are moving...well, don't. there's nothing to visualize; nations consume goods that they produce, and any excess goods are simply placed in a pool on the world market to be sold to nations that need more of the good. nations buy from the world market in order of their rank, so the UK will basically always be able to get their hands on anything, while outside of the top 10 or so you'll face shortages pretty often. a sphered nation is effectively part of its sphere leader's market both for buying and selling.

Jazerus fucked around with this message at 18:43 on May 31, 2021

Jazerus
May 24, 2011



Gort posted:

With all those downsides, why sphere anyone?

you want your pops to fulfill their needs so they can promote to higher class pops. the difference in promotion rate is exponentially better if they have easy access to stuff, and factories also run more cheaply (and thus profitably) with internal market goods. pops that spend less on externally-produced goods also have more wealth to tax. in general i think going nuts with sphering is more beneficial for LF than other economic types, because LF parties are going to limit your tariff income anyway and factories that can't run with a consistent profit will shut down. that being said, you can get a "Free Trade" policy even on socialist parties which limits your tariff income. ultimately you have to move past tariffs and into income taxation as a primary source of your state revenue, which means keeping prices high for your exports, not your imports; early-game is all about tariffs, but unless you start as a GP you won't have to worry about sphering for a while.

e: and yeah, there are certain countries you should never sphere, that you should just leave the gently caress alone and hope the AI doesn't touch them either so that goods remain scarce enough. mostly china but if india were to somehow bust out of the UK's hands i would be hesitant about that too.

Jazerus fucked around with this message at 22:21 on May 31, 2021

Jazerus
May 24, 2011



karmicknight posted:

Also, accruing wealth in Victoria 2 was a trap and a joke. You only need to make enough money to keep your country running, anything more is only useful insofar as you have stuff to spend it on.

there's always stuff to spend it on. forts, regiments, naval bases, industrializing minors for industry points and to gently caress with other GPs attempts to influence them

it's not impossible to run out of things to spend money on in v2 but it's hard

Jazerus
May 24, 2011



CharlestheHammer posted:

Stuff like this is why Vicky 2 was good and 3 being a more consistent and logical game would be a shame

i like vicky 2 a lot but i think being able to free bengal without having every bengali peasant end up with 100 million pounds sterling would be better overall

Jazerus
May 24, 2011



Fister Roboto posted:

Wasn't the economy also programmed by a libertarian who used it to "prove" that taxes are bad? Or is that just a rumor I heard.

Raenir Salazar posted:

I don't believe so, because state direction of the economy is consistently the best way to play the game.

it was programmed by a libertarian who concluded that the labor theory of value was the best basis for engaging, vaguely-historical gameplay mechanics, and who therefore hilariously created a game where libertarian economics are horrid and only viable for immense imperial states that feed on misery. it is absolutely true that taxing pops to the point that you lower their quality of life is very bad, but that's not exactly a difficult conclusion to draw no matter your ideology

Jazerus
May 24, 2011



The Cheshire Cat posted:

Yeah to put it in Victoria terms, sure the nominal tax rate was high but they had poo poo admin efficiency. It's why you always get those stories about how Amazon paid less in taxes than you did, because the corporate tax code is so full of loopholes that billion dollar corporations can make it look like they made less money than someone working on an hourly wage in one of their warehouses.

ah so they're keeping pops from fulfilling their needs so that they don't promote into bureaucrats, keeping admin efficiency low. tricky capitalists

Jazerus
May 24, 2011



Super Jay Mann posted:

Modern day mod, Japan becomes the dominant Great Power by getting the rest of the world addicted to anime.

vast industrial complexes churning out discrete units of anime

Jazerus
May 24, 2011



there is a little bit more to the "indian regiments stay in india" thing than just the need for garrison work. the people most on-board with serving in the aristocratic british military were high-caste folks that literally could not travel across the ocean for religious reasons, and would have rebelled if ordered overseas. did, in fact - the Mutiny was partially driven by fear that the british were going to expand overseas service. in many ways the sepoys were a direct mirror of the regular british army - aristocratic leadership with lots of landed gentry. their presence was considered important for retaining control as the east india company generally tried to operate as an extra administrative layer above the pre-existing social structures, except in the cases where british sensibilities (and prejudices) were simply too ruffled not to interfere. which was a lot of cases to be fair

the EIC and the raj are a fascinatingly awful lens into the nuts and bolts of empire that in many other cases were simply not documented nearly as thoroughly

Minenfeld! posted:

Oh God please do not add any designer of anything to Vicky 3.

trade good designer. let me catapult to the top as bavaria selling Opera to the world

Jazerus fucked around with this message at 02:26 on Jun 3, 2021

Jazerus
May 24, 2011



Mantis42 posted:

Sherman's March on Paris is a pretty kickass alt history scenario ngl

at that point in time paris would have thrown open the gates and invited him to help them do a revolution

Jazerus
May 24, 2011



StashAugustine posted:

reinstalled victoria 2 and still have no clue how this game works. i tried venezuela and spent thirty years watching a dozen capitalists build three barely profitable factories that employ 500 people between them

here's the blueprint i followed for colombia, which should work similarly for venezuela

1. very low taxes and tariffs for a few years. spend those years promoting bureaucrats and clergy. they won't really promote if you tax them heavily because they won't be able to get their hands on luxury goods. nations that start with a higher rank can often just promote and tax heavily at the same time, but venezuela definitely can't. you want 4% clergy in each state so that your people start becoming literate at a reasonable rate
2. invade central america piece by piece as the FRCA dissolves for easy prestige and land
3. build some factories in each state and start promoting craftsmen. to be able to manually build factories at this stage of the game you probably need to put reactionaries in power by calling elections constantly and choosing options which make people more reactionary. try not to go overboard with this because you will want to actually pass reforms later.
4. grab some african territory for small bits of prestige and lots of resources. the area from benin to kongo is good for this purpose.
5. do whatever you want for the rest of the game

in short, don't let your capitalists control your industrialization, and don't assume people will start working in factories without using your national focus to turn them into craftsmen.

Jazerus
May 24, 2011



fuf posted:

I never understood this argument.

Surely no one starts playing with the intention of actually doing particularly well in their first few games? You're mostly just trying to understand wtf is going on and how things work.

I think a country that is small enough so that you can grasp everything that is going on is clearly way better for learning than a big country where things can quickly get overwhelming.

You don't want to start with like 50 provinces to keep track of, you want three or four so you can click around and see what's going on and what effect your decisions have.

You don't want 15 vassals, you want a couple so you can get to know them and how you interact with them.

You don't want to start with a giant army and fleets to reorganise, you just want a few divisions and ships to inspect.

Starting small makes learning how the games work much more manageable.

i think it really varies from game to game.

CK? yeah, starting as a count just makes sense for learning purposes, although i will say that sometimes brand new CK players intimidate themselves when they start as a single county because they think that they're missing a bunch of depth to the game that would make them not have to wait around and get frustrated trying to "learn" things that don't actually exist.

EU? no, small countries are very challenging and getting bodied over and over is not usually fun. medium-sized tags like portugal or milan are ideal for learning.

V2? well, everybody should play medium-sized nations for the most part, new or veteran. the GPs aren't really fun unless you have a very specific idea for an alternate timeline that you want to implement, and tags that are too small literally can't do anything for a long time. size in V2 is about population numbers though, so like belgium, bavaria or two sicilies are fine, powerful even, while venezuela is not.

Jazerus
May 24, 2011



The Cheshire Cat posted:

The thing that makes this confusing is that Conservatives and Liberals will sometimes support passing laws they wouldn't normally (usually, conservatives don't want the laws changed at all, while liberals will support progressive political reforms but no social reforms), depending on the militancy of the population. The angrier the people are, the more conservatives/liberals will support reforms, so this is why people suggest that the best strategy for reforming is to piss people off - because conservatives and liberals will typically make up the bulk of your upper house. So if you aren't aware of this, it can be very unclear why sometimes your upper house will support changing a law but other times it won't, even when the composition is basically the same.

specifically, each unit of overall militancy increases the support of non-extremist parties for reforms they normally wouldn't support by 10%. so 5 militancy will make 50% of liberals vote for social reforms, 50% of socialists vote for political reforms, and 50% of conservatives vote for either one (liberals will always vote for political reforms and socialists will always vote for social reforms, while conservatives never vote for either without pressure from the population)

Jazerus
May 24, 2011



StashAugustine posted:

Does size of a political movement feed into it at all?

no lol they don't give a poo poo except insofar as the movement impacts militancy

Jazerus
May 24, 2011



Allyn posted:

Indeed: in V2, the Upper House will gain support for any of the political reforms as militancy rises. Which means it's a legit strat to ignore political movements for the day's hot button issue purely to drive up that militancy, allowing you to pass all the other political reforms quicker. For example, half your country wants to abolish slavery? Well too bad, they're gonna have to wait for everybody to get full voting rights, freedom of assembly, freedom of the press, freedom to unionise, etc etc, first! If you start by outlawing slavery, it'll disband the abolitionist movement, lowering militancy (and its growth), and, ultimately, significantly slow down your passage of all the reforms.

you can even milk abolitionism to pass healthcare/schools/minimum wage/etc.

makes you wish a v2 player had been running the US in the 1850s

Jazerus
May 24, 2011



Takanago posted:

From the Dev Diary: "Several different types of Private Industries are shown below"


i don't see clipper factories in this screenshot. my ability to feel human is teetering on the edge, wiz!!!

Jazerus
May 24, 2011



Dr. Video Games 0031 posted:

There is one thing that still seems unclear to me. It talks about how there are some buildings that are state owned and some buildings that are privately owned. Will socialist/communist states not own those "private industries"? It seems like what is considered private or not should differ nation to nation. (if there is no functional gameplay difference then I guess it doesn't matter)

quote:

The counterpart to Government Buildings is Private Industries. The vast majority of Buildings in Victoria 3 fall under this category, which includes a broad range of industries such as (non-subsistence!) farms, plantations, mines and factories. Unlike Government Buildings, Private Industries are not owned by the state but rather by Pops such as Capitalists and Aristocrats, who reap the profits they bring in and pay wages to the other Pops working there (usually at least - under certain economic systems the ownership of buildings may be radically different!).

seems like it leaves room not only for state ownership, but also finer gradations of socialist economics such as craftsmen owning their own workplaces

Jazerus
May 24, 2011



you could also poach vassals just through diplomacy if they really hated their liege and liked you. being personal friends with somebody could win you not just an ally, but free territory.

i do think ck1 was more brutal toward characters in general. it's often pretty easy to keep your dude healthy for a long time in ck2 while you really had no power over that at all in ck1 beyond the choice to go into battle personally or not, and people died young constantly. getting a character to really high prestige or piety felt like a big accomplishment. and yeah, succession was brutal and a succession war ended in a dissolved realm as often as it went smoothly.

Jazerus
May 24, 2011



Stairmaster posted:

this is why ss13 is the best video game because you can make all the right decisions and still die ignobly (and potentially rear end-less)

this is because other people are unknowable and at any moment someone might send a bomb through the mail system that explodes in transit right under your feet, or do any number of other things. if it was the computer randomly sending a bomb it would be stupid but because it's another person it's great.

Jazerus
May 24, 2011



Cease to Hope posted:

Yeah, this is obnoxious and only exists because of perfect knowledge and perfect command and control. There's no reason armies should be able to evade each other the way that they do in all of Paradox's games except HOI.

the romans did it against hannibal for literally years. walking your dudes around and letting attrition bleed the enemy absolutely was a part of pre-modern war, and it is actually really hard to hide an army's movements under most circumstances. skirmishes (represented by the minimum attrition you always take in enemy territory) and sieges were generally the really important part of warfare, not the field battles, although there are exceptions.

i would not want to just throw numbers into a theater and watch the AI fight wars in a pre-modern game. it might be okay in vicky tho.

Jazerus
May 24, 2011



soldier pops generate soldier mana which can be spent on armies

Jazerus
May 24, 2011



karmicknight posted:

I hope we get yellow prussia on release

prussia color slider in the game setup options

Jazerus
May 24, 2011



A Buttery Pastry posted:

The fact that they feel a need to have those numbers for the top 3 underneath kinda prove that the pie chart sucks at conveying useful information. In the same space they're currently using, bar charts would be able to provide more easily read information on more groups.

It could be that the detailed list has that, though then a player might want a way for the detailed list to always be the one that opens first.

bar charts can't accommodate additional pop types added by mods or dlc inside a fixed-size UI element

Jazerus
May 24, 2011



aristos are fine, they give an RGO output bonus so you don't necessarily want to actively discourage them. just get your middle class and soldier pops online

Jazerus
May 24, 2011



you have to make soldier pay competitive to attract them, pops won't tend to promote to soldier at the base rate (middle of the slider)

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Jazerus
May 24, 2011



Raenir Salazar posted:

Technically I'm not sure if soldiers actually are paid more with a higher slider, or if the slider merely affects the rate in which they promote. It would make sense to me that a higher military budget affects recruitment broadly without necessitating the average pay being any higher.

they are, you can see their needs shift to being unmet if you bottom out the slider

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