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kingcobweb
Apr 16, 2005

Tits and cooters, Mr Bond.


All the Denver people seem to adore him and heís been an assistant coach for absolutely ages, about time he got a HC job.

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Calidus
Oct 31, 2011

Stand back I'm going to try science!

My new favorite fantasy trade is Ingram to the Warriors. I want see what Ingram can do when he surrounded by elite guards. The Wiggins contract is half over.

morestuff
Aug 2, 2008

You can't stop what's coming


Calidus posted:

My new favorite fantasy trade is Ingram to the Warriors. I want see what Ingram can do when he surrounded by elite guards. The Wiggins contract is half over.

Why do people think New Orleans is ready to tank again

Spacebump
Dec 23, 2003

Dallas Mavericks: Generations


morestuff posted:

Why do people think New Orleans is ready to tank again

imo New Orleans is closer to contending than tanking rn. Especially if expansion happens and they get moved to the East.

Calidus
Oct 31, 2011

Stand back I'm going to try science!

morestuff posted:

Why do people think New Orleans is ready to tank again

I just donít like Zion + Ingram. I want to see both of them when there is good guard play.

Lockback
Sep 2, 2006

All days are nights to see till I see thee; and nights bright days when dreams do show me thee.


Calidus posted:

I just donít like Zion + Ingram. I want to see both of them when there is good guard play.

I think its probably a better idea to try to find a guard that fits with them than to ditch Ingram and then need a guard and a wing.

I think Lonzo is somewhat underappreciated around here but I will admit he's a bad fit there.

morestuff
Aug 2, 2008

You can't stop what's coming


I know it's probably dumb structurally but I honestly wouldn't mind the Hornets making a run at Lonzo. It's already LaMelo's team so may as well turn it into a fiefdom

Kibner
Oct 21, 2008

#1 Pelican Fan


E: nah, decided against it

Dejan Bimble
Mar 24, 2008

we're all black friends


Plaster Town Cop

As much as Ingram doesn't move the needle, finding big wings is one of the hardest things for teams to do. Unless they grab someone they really trust as a replacement, I don't think they're going to part with him.

Kirios
Jan 25, 2010





Wait why are y'all so down on Ingram? He's a solid #2 option. If you need good guard play for him and Zion (definitely agree on that) then you find or sign a good distributor. You don't even need a great one! Someone like a Conley as an example. That's much easier to find than someone with Ingram's skill set. You trade him away you basically guarantee Zion's not sticking around longer than he has to.

Metapod
Mar 18, 2012
:shrek:

Conley is a great one????

Kirios
Jan 25, 2010





Okay fine you can even do a notch below - just someone that can spread the floor at the point guard position because Lonzo is certainly not doing that.

I'm also not as big of a Conley fan as some of y'all around here.

Edit: Conley also came to mind because I think he's a UFA this year? Could have sworn I read that somewhere.

Kirios fucked around with this message at 21:52 on Jul 15, 2021

Dejan Bimble
Mar 24, 2008

we're all black friends


Plaster Town Cop

Kirios posted:

Wait why are y'all so down on Ingram? He's a solid #2 option. If you need good guard play for him and Zion (definitely agree on that) then you find or sign a good distributor. You don't even need a great one! Someone like a Conley as an example. That's much easier to find than someone with Ingram's skill set. You trade him away you basically guarantee Zion's not sticking around longer than he has to.

We're down on Ingram because he is what he is, a small forward who can get 20 points a game without really doing much for you. He eats up usage that would otherwise go to worse guys, but that's about it. He's probably the median starting SF right now.

Kirios
Jan 25, 2010





Ouch that seems unfair - you make him sound like he's Wiggins or something. Well agree to disagree - if the Pelicans go hard after Conley in the offseason I think they can surprise a lot of people like the Suns this year.

Kibner
Oct 21, 2008

#1 Pelican Fan


If Ingram would play the defense he is capable of, he'd be inverse Kris Middleton.

Veryslightlymad
Jun 3, 2007

I fight with
my brain
and with an
underlying
hatred of the
Erebonian
Noble Faction


Pels could take a flyer on a guy like TJ McConnell who is about 5 years younger than Conley and won't be nearly as expensive.

DeimosRising
Oct 17, 2005

°Hola SEA!




Oh you mean Smol Simmons? Somehow I donít think that moves the needle

Kirios
Jan 25, 2010





DeimosRising posted:

Oh you mean Smol Simmons? Somehow I donít think that moves the needle

The disrespect thrown at the Floor General himself!

Lockback
Sep 2, 2006

All days are nights to see till I see thee; and nights bright days when dreams do show me thee.


Dejan Bimble posted:

We're down on Ingram because he is what he is, a small forward who can get 20 points a game without really doing much for you. He eats up usage that would otherwise go to worse guys, but that's about it. He's probably the median starting SF right now.

The 15thish best SF seems like a really good thing to have though, especially when he's only 23 and had a near 50/40/90 season. I expect his defense to get back to his regular decent/good levels too, it was a weird year.

DeimosRising
Oct 17, 2005

°Hola SEA!




Lockback posted:

The 15thish best SF seems like a really good thing to have though, especially when he's only 23 and had a near 50/40/90 season. I expect his defense to get back to his regular decent/good levels too, it was a weird year.

ďNear 50/40/90Ē seems like a stretch for 46/38/88. Heís a reasonably efficient scorer but not remarkably so

Dejan Bimble
Mar 24, 2008

we're all black friends


Plaster Town Cop

Kirios posted:

Ouch that seems unfair - you make him sound like he's Wiggins or something. Well agree to disagree - if the Pelicans go hard after Conley in the offseason I think they can surprise a lot of people like the Suns this year.

It's funny you say that, they ended up neck in neck in RPM for sfs, in what was an absolute career year for wiggins. However they were mirror images, ingram's positive impact was all on offense, wiggins's was all on defense now that he's become a swing 3/4 defense first guy with draymond moving him around like the knight on the chessboard.

He was more like a mid tier backup impact wise before.

Ingram really does need to improve his defense, I'm just not sure he can. If he was a net 0 defender he'd be much more worthy of the contract he wants.

MourningView
Sep 2, 2006


Is this Heaven?


Conley is going back to Utah

Dejan Bimble posted:

It's funny you say that, they ended up neck in neck in RPM for sfs, in what was an absolute career year for wiggins. However they were mirror images, ingram's positive impact was all on offense, wiggins's was all on defense now that he's become a swing 3/4 defense first guy with draymond moving him around like the knight on the chessboard.

He was more like a mid tier backup impact wise before.

Ingram really does need to improve his defense, I'm just not sure he can. If he was a net 0 defender he'd be much more worthy of the contract he wants.

Those stats are a lot worse at measuring individual defense than they are offense

Redgrendel2001
Sep 1, 2006

you literally think a person saying their NBA team of choice being better than the fucking 76ers is a 'schtick'

a literal thing you think.



https://twitter.com/TheOnion/status/1415687738372788228?s=19

Dejan Bimble
Mar 24, 2008

we're all black friends


Plaster Town Cop

MourningView posted:

Conley is going back to Utah

Those stats are a lot worse at measuring individual defense than they are offense

Defense in general has all sorts of network effects built in, and the top teams of o/d on RPM would show weak guys as much stronger than you think, that's true, but as a rule of thumb, balance of guesses sort of thing, I think it's fair enough. From what I saw of wiggins this year he was producing on defense and not doing much on offense

morestuff
Aug 2, 2008

You can't stop what's coming


Hollingerís top 20 free agents using hand-wavey formulas:

1. Kawhi
2. Paul
3. Collins
4. Lowry
5. Conley
6. Duncan Robinson
7. Lonzo Ball
8. Danny Green
9. Devonte Graham
10. Richaun
11. Jarrett Allen
12. DeMar
13. Drummond
14. Bruce Brown
15. Olynyk
16. Fournier
17. Norm
18. Dinwiddie
19. Hardaway Jr
20. Theis

Falls off pretty hard after Lonzo but he still projects Graham/Holmes to get around $19M a year

Dejan Bimble
Mar 24, 2008

we're all black friends


Plaster Town Cop

Iím going to have to question any formula that puts Jarret Allen, a legit room protector, under Andre Drummond, who doesnít do anything but offensive of rebound and catch lobs, And gently caress up trying to post up.

Richaun might be The unquestioned master of the scoop shot, but I would much rather have Jarret Allenís defense than Richuanís lack of.

Edit drat whatís with iPhones capitalizing random words

morestuff
Aug 2, 2008

You can't stop what's coming


Allen is higher than Drummond tho

kingcobweb
Apr 16, 2005

Tits and cooters, Mr Bond.


morestuff posted:

Hollingerís top 20 free agents using hand-wavey formulas:

1. Kawhi
2. Paul
3. Collins
4. Lowry
5. Conley
6. Duncan Robinson
7. Lonzo Ball
8. Danny Green
9. Devonte Graham
10. Richaun
11. Jarrett Allen
12. DeMar
13. Drummond
14. Bruce Brown
15. Olynyk
16. Fournier
17. Norm
18. Dinwiddie
19. Hardaway Jr
20. Theis

Falls off pretty hard after Lonzo but he still projects Graham/Holmes to get around $19M a year

Remember when he projected Jerami Grant was the most overrated free agent last year who only deserved like 8m or something

Veryslightlymad
Jun 3, 2007

I fight with
my brain
and with an
underlying
hatred of the
Erebonian
Noble Faction


He was right.

You know how sometimes people get in the MIP discussion and all that they did was double their minutes, and you're like, "yeah. Of course your stats are better. You're playing twice as often." Well, Grant had his minutes increased and almost doubled his usage. So yeah, of course he looks better than last year on a superficial level. The team is deliberately running the lion's share of their possessions through him, which of course Denver didn't do because it's a bad idea. There's a lot of reasons why the Pistons were bad, but "We believe Jeremi Grant can be the best player on a team" is one of the top three.

Spacebump
Dec 23, 2003

Dallas Mavericks: Generations


Veryslightlymad posted:

He was right.

You know how sometimes people get in the MIP discussion and all that they did was double their minutes, and you're like, "yeah. Of course your stats are better. You're playing twice as often." Well, Grant had his minutes increased and almost doubled his usage. So yeah, of course he looks better than last year on a superficial level. The team is deliberately running the lion's share of their possessions through him, which of course Denver didn't do because it's a bad idea. There's a lot of reasons why the Pistons were bad, but "We believe Jeremi Grant can be the best player on a team" is one of the top three.

Didn't the Pistons have a bunch of injuries?

Metapod
Mar 18, 2012
:shrek:

Veryslightlymad posted:

He was right.

You know how sometimes people get in the MIP discussion and all that they did was double their minutes, and you're like, "yeah. Of course your stats are better. You're playing twice as often." Well, Grant had his minutes increased and almost doubled his usage. So yeah, of course he looks better than last year on a superficial level. The team is deliberately running the lion's share of their possessions through him, which of course Denver didn't do because it's a bad idea. There's a lot of reasons why the Pistons were bad, but "We believe Jeremi Grant can be the best player on a team" is one of the top three.

Nope

Dejan Bimble
Mar 24, 2008

we're all black friends


Plaster Town Cop

Veryslightlymad posted:

He was right.

You know how sometimes people get in the MIP discussion and all that they did was double their minutes, and you're like, "yeah. Of course your stats are better. You're playing twice as often." Well, Grant had his minutes increased and almost doubled his usage. So yeah, of course he looks better than last year on a superficial level. The team is deliberately running the lion's share of their possessions through him, which of course Denver didn't do because it's a bad idea. There's a lot of reasons why the Pistons were bad, but "We believe Jeremi Grant can be the best player on a team" is one of the top three.

He was a very good first option good scorer from three levels, And that was on a team with a bunch of No hopers, reclamation projects, rookies, andthird point guards getting the shot to play with the first unit, and a plumlee. I have no complaints.



If the pelicans called Detroit today, and said we will give you Ingram and a protected first for Grant, the Pistons would say no. I think thatís a no for about any small forward in the league who isnít already a multi time all NBA.

I think when they have cade, healthy killian, and a stronger rotation, Grant will be able to play more defense, And he gives them the thing that rebuilding teams are often chasing for years with no hope. We get to hear regularly from lock back how nice it is to have loving Harrison Barnes at that position. I have no complaints about Mr. Grant. He also doesnít play the same position as Victor, so if God smiles on Detroit no worries about that


Oh and morestuff, youíre right sorry thatís what I get for scrolling up from the last post, dizzied

Dejan Bimble fucked around with this message at 04:55 on Jul 16, 2021

Veryslightlymad
Jun 3, 2007

I fight with
my brain
and with an
underlying
hatred of the
Erebonian
Noble Faction


Spacebump posted:

Didn't the Pistons have a bunch of injuries?

The Pistons had an endless string of problems:

Dejan Bimble posted:

....a team with a bunch of No hopers, reclamation projects, rookies, andthird point guards getting the shot to play with the first unit, and a plumlee.

is as good a summary as any. It was dire.

We'll see what Grant can do if he gets a better team around him. My guess is "look a lot like pre-Pistons Grant". A team with Grant as its best player has a ceiling of slightly higher than the Pistons. A team with Grant as its third best, or maybe even second best player.... might have potential.

As for how effective he was on offense... well, he was the league's 23rd leading scorer and every single person higher than him had a better effective field goal percentage as well as a better actual field goal percentage. Also every single person who scored more points per game than him also had more assists per game than him (Embiid was tied) . So he can be the lead scorer on a team, but the team's probably not gonna be very good if he is.

He's got good age, good potential to be very solid on both ends. Is clearly above average. And is not a first option.

MourningView
Sep 2, 2006


Is this Heaven?


There is a big gap between "Grant is overtaxed as a number one option on a team full of rookies" and "Grant is only worth $7.5 million a year" which is what Hollinger actually said. He clearly was not right

Stevie Lee
Oct 8, 2007


morestuff posted:

Hollinger’s top 20 free agents using hand-wavey formulas:

1. Kawhi
2. Paul
3. Collins
4. Lowry
5. Conley
6. Duncan Robinson
7. Lonzo Ball
8. Danny Green
9. Devonte Graham
10. Richaun
11. Jarrett Allen
12. DeMar
13. Drummond
14. Bruce Brown
15. Olynyk
16. Fournier
17. Norm
18. Dinwiddie
19. Hardaway Jr
20. Theis

Falls off pretty hard after Lonzo but he still projects Graham/Holmes to get around $19M a year

this is Furkan Korkmaz erasure.

Declan MacManus
Sep 1, 2011

damn i'm really in this bitch



the thing with ďoh he just doubled his minutes and he doubled his stats bing bang boomĒ is that his efficiency didnít fall off a cliff which indicates he can handle an increased scoring load and time on the floor without falling apart. heís not a #1 option but you can put him around some elite guys and heíd be a great third or fourth option on a contender

basketball is not played in a vacuum or on a spreadsheet; guys have to actually Do the Thing instead of having their output extrapolated statistically. bird in the hand and all that

Veryslightlymad
Jun 3, 2007

I fight with
my brain
and with an
underlying
hatred of the
Erebonian
Noble Faction


MourningView posted:

There is a big gap between "Grant is overtaxed as a number one option on a team full of rookies" and "Grant is only worth $7.5 million a year" which is what Hollinger actually said. He clearly was not right

Yeah, all right. That's fair. Calling Hollinger "right" is needless hyperbole.

Kibner
Oct 21, 2008

#1 Pelican Fan


:kimchi:

https://twitter.com/mcten/status/1416115856241696768?s=20

Rick
Feb 23, 2004
And now the whole nation - pulpit and all - will take up the war-cry, and shout itself hoarse, and mob any honest man who ventures to open his mouth; and presently such mouths will cease to open.

Kibner posted:

If Ingram would play the defense he is capable of, he'd be inverse Kris Middleton.

This is the main problem. In LA he was secondary scorer secondary ballhandler and primary perimeter defender. In NO he's not doing much of that other stuff at all.

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morestuff
Aug 2, 2008

You can't stop what's coming


https://twitter.com/hpbasketball/status/1416531317433323521?s=21

ďMultiple league sources indicated this week that the Jazz were open to trade discussions. The consensus is that Derrick Favors is not only available, but Utah is eager to move him to clear his roughly $20 million in remaining salary (including a $10 million player option for 2022-23).Ē

If Charlotte ends up drafting a center Iíd be down for them absorbing Favorsí deal

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