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MourningView
Sep 2, 2006


Is this Heaven?


At this point I assume woj gets a percentage on jvg's contract in exchange for putting him in every coaching search

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Rick
Feb 23, 2004
And now the whole nation - pulpit and all - will take up the war-cry, and shout itself hoarse, and mob any honest man who ventures to open his mouth; and presently such mouths will cease to open.

I just feel bad for Schröder, I always liked him as a player before and that Magic quote is gonna murder any chance he had at acceptance by the fan base if he did want to come back.

Which it sounds like he wants to do?

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/10004772-dennis-schroder-says-staying-with-lakers-next-season-not-even-a-question

Dejan Bimble
Mar 24, 2008

we're all black friends


Plaster Town Cop

Great idea for marketing the old horse head Pistons throwbacks

"There's No I n Teal" "Detrot Pstons" "Establshed 1949"

morestuff
Aug 2, 2008

You can't stop what's coming


Rick posted:

I just feel bad for Schröder, I always liked him as a player before and that Magic quote is gonna murder any chance he had at acceptance by the fan base if he did want to come back.

Which it sounds like he wants to do?

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/10004772-dennis-schroder-says-staying-with-lakers-next-season-not-even-a-question

I don’t know if the Lakers can actually afford to let him go

Calidus
Oct 31, 2011

Stand back I'm going to try science!

morestuff posted:

I don’t know if the Lakers can actually afford to let him go

It’s like Boston and Hayward you can’t let him walk for nothing.

Ghost Dog
Aug 17, 2016



i dont see how the lakers would replace his shooting and playmaking, both of which they need desperately. lebron cant be handling the ball evey halfcourt possession forever

Rick
Feb 23, 2004
And now the whole nation - pulpit and all - will take up the war-cry, and shout itself hoarse, and mob any honest man who ventures to open his mouth; and presently such mouths will cease to open.

If Miami wants Schroder as much as the rumors, they are gonna need to do a sign and trade and the Lakers could maybe swap for Dragic who is probably a better fit for them as Dragic is really good at catch and shoot. But adding another injury prone dude might not be the best idea.

Lockback
Sep 2, 2006

All days are nights to see till I see thee; and nights bright days when dreams do show me thee.


Rick posted:

If Miami wants Schroder as much as the rumors, they are gonna need to do a sign and trade and the Lakers could maybe swap for Dragic who is probably a better fit for them as Dragic is really good at catch and shoot. But adding another injury prone dude might not be the best idea.

If they do that LA will be hard-capped at the apron and lose the MLE. I think that might be a problem for LA.

Rick
Feb 23, 2004
And now the whole nation - pulpit and all - will take up the war-cry, and shout itself hoarse, and mob any honest man who ventures to open his mouth; and presently such mouths will cease to open.

That is pretty much what they did this year already.

Kind of depends on what you think the MLE market is going to be this year. Dragic might be better than what is out there after the Nets take their pick.

Salvor_Hardin
Sep 13, 2005

I want to go protest.


Nap Ghost

Calidus posted:

It’s like Boston and Hayward you can’t let him walk for nothing.

This comes up a lot and I never know what it means. A contract is a thing with a predetermined ending. Once it's up, you have no claim to that player, unless bird rights stuff comes into play I guess.

Is the presumption here they should have done a sign and trade or something? This comes up a lot with Kyrie and others.

Did Cleveland get anything when LeBron left for LA?

fast cars loose anus
Mar 2, 2007

Your 2017 World Series MVP




Pillbug

Salvor_Hardin posted:

Did Cleveland get anything when LeBron left for LA?

No but no one gave a poo poo because he had brought them a ring; also superstars are different. If they wanna play their deal out and then go wherever there's not a whole lot you can do about it; after all what are you gonna do, trade LeBron James?

On the other hand in this case you're a near-capped out team with two superstars and a window for contention that is wide open but not for long; you sure as gently caress can't have peripheral players just walking out the door because you just don't have any real way to replace them. And you traded to get him in the first place.

Salvor_Hardin
Sep 13, 2005

I want to go protest.


Nap Ghost

fast cars loose anus posted:

No but no one gave a poo poo because he had brought them a ring; also superstars are different. If they wanna play their deal out and then go wherever there's not a whole lot you can do about it; after all what are you gonna do, trade LeBron James?

On the other hand in this case you're a near-capped out team with two superstars and a window for contention that is wide open but not for long; you sure as gently caress can't have peripheral players just walking out the door because you just don't have any real way to replace them. And you traded to get him in the first place.

I still don't understand what a team is supposed to do about a player after their deal is up. They have no leverage at that point, an unrestricted free agent can do what they want.

Also Hayward wasn't traded for unless I missed your meaning.

Rick
Feb 23, 2004
And now the whole nation - pulpit and all - will take up the war-cry, and shout itself hoarse, and mob any honest man who ventures to open his mouth; and presently such mouths will cease to open.

The teams don't have leverage, but there are reasons that they might want to do a sign and trade, and if a player wants to go somewere they can only do a sign and trade to then teams regain some leverage over the team that's trying to get the dude, at least.

I might be missing the point you're trying to make, though.

Salvor_Hardin
Sep 13, 2005

I want to go protest.


Nap Ghost

Rick posted:

The teams don't have leverage, but there are reasons that they might want to do a sign and trade, and if a player wants to go somewere they can only do a sign and trade to then teams regain some leverage over the team that's trying to get the dude, at least.

I might be missing the point you're trying to make, though.

I guess I'm just reacting to the notion I hear in podcasts (and earlier in this thread) about letting a guy walk with no return. I guess I see that as the default state of the end of a contract if there isn't a mutual agreement to resign.

morestuff
Aug 2, 2008

You can't stop what's coming


Salvor_Hardin posted:

I still don't understand what a team is supposed to do about a player after their deal is up. They have no leverage at that point, an unrestricted free agent can do what they want.

Also Hayward wasn't traded for unless I missed your meaning.

Their leverage is that they can go over the cap to pay him, while most other contenders don’t have the space to give him more than the MLE. So “they can’t afford to let him leave” means they need to pay him whatever he wants or they’re stuck shopping from the garbage bin

The Maestro
Feb 21, 2006


Salvor_Hardin posted:

I guess I'm just reacting to the notion I hear in podcasts (and earlier in this thread) about letting a guy walk with no return. I guess I see that as the default state of the end of a contract if there isn't a mutual agreement to resign.

You’re not wrong about the default state bit, but the other side of the coin is that if the player can help the team they’re leaving, then it’s also a failure by default for the team if they can’t finagle a sign and trade. Of course there’s nuance to it, like if they’d rather let the player go than be hard capped, but the bottom line is that the team should have done whatever they could have done to either retain the player or get something for them.

Schroeder would be a borderline case but he had a great year with OKC (Chris Paul effect) and he fills a position of need for LAL, one that is difficult to fill. You have Rick “wishing” for a 35 year old injury prone probably washed Dragic as a back up plan, that’s how tough the market is for a playoff level ball handler, and how tough the Lakers cap situation is going forward.

Kibner
Oct 21, 2008

#1 Pelican Fan


Salvor_Hardin posted:

I guess I'm just reacting to the notion I hear in podcasts (and earlier in this thread) about letting a guy walk with no return. I guess I see that as the default state of the end of a contract if there isn't a mutual agreement to resign.

In addition to what other folks have said, it is also a salary cap issue thing. Typically, someone like that has a hefty contract. And contending teams are often operating over the cap. Letting that player go without trading them may take the team under the cap, but not by much, and that prevents them from signing FA from other teams to a big contract. It limits the team's options to acquire quality players.

Veryslightlymad
Jun 3, 2007

I fight with
my brain
and with an
underlying
hatred of the
Erebonian
Noble Faction


Yeah, you more or less need all your contracts to come up instead of just one. And "may" is doing work in that post. They might also be over the cap even if the player walks.

One of the ways you stay operating above the cap is Bird Rights. This is why teams over the cap emphasize a sign and trade over just letting the player walk. If you have Bird Rights, you can sign that player over the cap. And also, Bird Rights are transferrable through trade. So if a team can line up a new player to trade for, and he was with the other team long enough to accrue bird rights, the new team is considered to have those rights and can sign him over the cap, even if he hasn't been with the new team for the requisite three years.

Salvor_Hardin
Sep 13, 2005

I want to go protest.


Nap Ghost

Cap math makes sense, thanks. That said, if a player wants to walk and their desired destination has the cap space (a la Kyrie and Brooklyn) the original team can't really do anything about it.

DeimosRising
Oct 17, 2005

¡Hola SEA!




Salvor_Hardin posted:

Cap math makes sense, thanks. That said, if a player wants to walk and their desired destination has the cap space (a la Kyrie and Brooklyn) the original team can't really do anything about it.

They can offer more money, which sometimes matters and sometimes doesn’t. But basically it’s easy to circumvent the cap to keep people and hard to circumvent the cap to obtain new people (unless they make at or below one of the various exceptions) so it’s very important to keep your players or move them for assets because they space they create will be less than the space they filled

fast cars loose anus
Mar 2, 2007

Your 2017 World Series MVP




Pillbug

Also specifically in the case of Dennis Schroder its probably unfair to be too hard on the Lakers about it because they offered him 84 mil and he turned it down. It's not like the Lakers were negligent or did something stupid to get to the point where he can just walk for nothing (besides trading for him in the first place).

indigi
Jul 20, 2004

you better let me go
the day you need me


why is the nba cap so complicated

MourningView
Sep 2, 2006


Is this Heaven?


indigi posted:

why is the nba cap so complicated

they have a lot of rules meant to make it easier for teams to keep their own players and to prevent good teams from being completely unable to add players

Dejan Bimble
Mar 24, 2008

we're all black friends


Plaster Town Cop

From Cavs beat reporter Terry Pluto, possibly trying to depress free agent market, possibly true

Two NBA people I respect suggest the Cavs trade Sexton. One likes him a lot, one is lukewarm. But their point is the team should only sign Allen (a restricted free agent) to a $100 million deal. Because of the Love contract, the Cavs can’t pay Allen and Sexton tons of cash without crushing the salary cap.

Vinestalk
Jul 2, 2011



Welcome Mavs posters. You took the Western Conference super team to 7 games and Luka demonstrated that he's capable of being this generation's greatest player. It's rough losing when you're so close to the next round but When you have one young player capable of carrying a whole team that far, there's a lot to look forward to.

MourningView
Sep 2, 2006


Is this Heaven?


Dejan Bimble posted:

From Cavs beat reporter Terry Pluto, possibly trying to depress free agent market, possibly true

Two NBA people I respect suggest the Cavs trade Sexton. One likes him a lot, one is lukewarm. But their point is the team should only sign Allen (a restricted free agent) to a $100 million deal. Because of the Love contract, the Cavs can’t pay Allen and Sexton tons of cash without crushing the salary cap.

Sexton is good but they probably should trade him if they can get any decent offers because you can't have a real team with he and Garland playing together and Garland is probably going to be better.

Rick
Feb 23, 2004
And now the whole nation - pulpit and all - will take up the war-cry, and shout itself hoarse, and mob any honest man who ventures to open his mouth; and presently such mouths will cease to open.

Feels like that might be worth dipping into the cookie jar if you are OKC.

Metapod
Mar 18, 2012
:shrek:

Sexton doesn't feel like a presti player doubt they do that

MourningView
Sep 2, 2006


Is this Heaven?


Shai would be a good guy to pair him with since he's big enough to cover for him on defense while running point on offense but yes post-Durant and Harden they are opposed to players who can shoot as a general rule so Sexton is out.

Alfred P. Pseudonym
May 29, 2006

And when you gaze long into an abyss, the abyss goes 8-8



I would like for the Mavs to have better players around Luka than they do currently. I am also frustrated that Josh Green got like zero minutes this year. Maybe he won’t be any good idk but how will anyone ever know if he doesn’t play?

havelock
Jan 20, 2004

IGNORE ME

Soiled Meat

Alfred P. Pseudonym posted:

I would like for the Mavs to have better players around Luka than they do currently. I am also frustrated that Josh Green got like zero minutes this year. Maybe he won’t be any good idk but how will anyone ever know if he doesn’t play?

Seth Curry might have been enough to win one more game. He probably doesn't go 0-20 like everyone else. Frustrating. He wouldn't have been enough for a deep run, but if you're optimizing for people who are happy to watch Luka do his thing and knock down the likely wide open shots they'll get occasionally because of it, he sure seems like a better fit than what they ended up with.

MourningView
Sep 2, 2006


Is this Heaven?


Trading Curry was just bizarre, you'd think you'd want as much shooting as possible around someone like Luka. I guess the hope is that Terry eventually develops into something like that but he's going to need a couple year before he can hold up physically.

I think Josh Green can be a solid rotation wing eventually, especially on D, but I don't know if he really fixes the issues that they had in this series. He's not a great shooter and a rookie isn't really going to slow down Kawhi.

Alfred P. Pseudonym
May 29, 2006

And when you gaze long into an abyss, the abyss goes 8-8



The Curry trade was clearly the front office listening to all the talking heads saying they needed to beef up the defense/“toughness” so they went out and got Josh Richardson (useless) and James Johnson (lol) and drafted a defensive wing who never played.

Maybe they can do what they did with Dirk and crash out of the playoffs in tragic fashion for 10 years or so and then sign a bunch of old guys who roasted them in the playoffs and win 1 (one) NBA championship.

Lockback
Sep 2, 2006

All days are nights to see till I see thee; and nights bright days when dreams do show me thee.


There was a bunch of people here that pretty reasonably defended the Richardson trade. He gave them better wing defense and a better secondary ball handler to the detriment of outside shooting. On paper that makes sense, surrounding Luka with shooting is great but you need someone else to create some offense. The clippers were pretty successful getting the ball out of his hands, especially late in games, and you need another guy to punish teams when they sell out like that. Seth Curry is a mostly off-ball guy.

Turned out Josh Richardson wasn't the answer either but I understand what they are going for.

Alfred P. Pseudonym
May 29, 2006

And when you gaze long into an abyss, the abyss goes 8-8



I also liked the Richardson trade at the time fwiw. But boy did it not work out.

MourningView
Sep 2, 2006


Is this Heaven?


This isn't just a hindsight thing, I said it was bad at the time too. Josh Richardson was really bad last year and the "we need more creation" thing always sounds a lot more important with ultra heliocentric guys like Luka and LeBron than I think it ever actually is. Short of them adding another elite player Luka's usage isn't going to change that much, having a truly elite shooter is way more important than having a marginally better creator who isn't going to get that many chances to create. If if you put Luka with Chris Paul or Kyrie then yeah, sure, that extra creation becomes really valuable. If you put him with Josh Richardson then Josh Richardson is going to be mostly hanging out off ball and he's much worse at that than Seth Curry.

MourningView fucked around with this message at 15:19 on Jun 7, 2021

Lockback
Sep 2, 2006

All days are nights to see till I see thee; and nights bright days when dreams do show me thee.


I mean, just look at Luka's 4th quarter stats in the Clippers series if you don't think "Having no other real option beyond 1 player" isn't a death knell. If you want to know what "Luka + Seth Curry" looks like, it looks like basically the same record and a 1st round exit, that's what happened last year.

They really need to solve the problem that you can get the ball out of Luka's hands early in the shot clock and then the Mavs offense will look like crap no matter what. Until you solve that, role-player shooters won't make all that much of a difference.

Henchman of Santa
Aug 21, 2010


Why is Luka so bad at the free throw line?

MourningView
Sep 2, 2006


Is this Heaven?


Having another option for creation would be great but the other option has to be actually good. They're not taking the ball out of Luka's hands in crunch time to run pick and rolls with Josh Richardson

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Lockback
Sep 2, 2006

All days are nights to see till I see thee; and nights bright days when dreams do show me thee.


Henchman of Santa posted:

Why is Luka so bad at the free throw line?

I feel like that was just a fluke and he was probably pretty exhausted from a shortened off-season and condensed season.

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