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Section Z
Oct 1, 2008

Wait, this is the Moon.
How did I even get here?

Pillbug

"Skirmisher can dual wield throwing knives and a sword?"
*Skirmisher punches someone with their knife hand*


Also something to keep in mind for the archer haters/enthusiasts. Their other video mentioned in passing they were having trouble switching to melee as an archer without dying because it took something like "Three seconds at least" to pull out their knife. Probably not archer bias as they felt weapon switching on every class was slower now.

Section Z fucked around with this message at 23:11 on Jun 6, 2021

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Section Z
Oct 1, 2008

Wait, this is the Moon.
How did I even get here?

Pillbug

boz posted:

Which class/subclass gets the shovel? Having trouble on google finding it.
The first three random shovel videos I googled, they have the health kit power icon which SEEMS to be a poleman gimmick? So it seems to be the new Man at arms style subclass, the Poleman, who gets the shovel?

Or dare we hope, a global option to any subclass allowed to wield a two handed weapon?

Along those lines, I wonder if their polehammer will be as cool as the Chiv 1 Vanguard polehammer. Or if it will be weaker in their hands for "Not the big swings big damage Vanguard using it" reasons.

Section Z fucked around with this message at 05:24 on Jun 7, 2021

Section Z
Oct 1, 2008

Wait, this is the Moon.
How did I even get here?

Pillbug

mdct posted:

I love being a coward who has 100 degrees more vision than the first-person nerd

Realistically, it should be one or the other, that there's both modes is a real bad idea from a balance standpoint since one is strictly way better for everything except duels.

I suppose from a certain point of view, wanting to more easily avoid smashing your teammates in the back of the head with wide swings would be the sort of thing a 1st person purist duelist would loathe people having.

Technically cowardice just not the kind usually focused on.

Section Z
Oct 1, 2008

Wait, this is the Moon.
How did I even get here?

Pillbug

megane posted:

This might be a stupid question, but how do I kill people who are competent at blocking? In Mordhau, they had to time and aim their blocks, so I could mix up directions and feint and eventually they’d miss a block and get hit, but in Chiv all they have to do is look vaguely in my direction and press right click in a huge window. Can’t kick them because they’re not holding block, just tapping it. Feinting just wastes my time, because there’s no concept of “missing a block” here; they can re-block instantly even if they started an attack. Can counter them, but that doesn’t stop them blocking the counter. Usually we just block -> riposte back and forth until one of us gets bored and backs off, or somebody else shows up and third-parties one of us.
I am a filthy casual who has only played a couple hours sticking with poleman to get adjusted, but... Try just saying gently caress it and hitting the Q button more? Or mixing in more heavy swings if you think it is safe to do so?

Not exactly a pro strat for 1vs1 master duelists on a dramatic clifftop, but oh my loving GOD the amount of people who still have not quite grasped that trying to keep tanking very slow obvious wind up Q super swings is gonna eventually ruin their shield (along with the mini stagger), send their zweihander eventually flying, or make life easier for others to finish the job.

Again though, I have been doing this with polearms. It probably won't be as handy with smaller weapons, but the tutorial has you do it with a messer(?) sword. But so far I thank god when I see people "spamming block" because the thought that being able to hold a block is OP is (eventually) getting me free kills if nobody comes to save them.

Section Z fucked around with this message at 13:29 on Jun 9, 2021

Section Z
Oct 1, 2008

Wait, this is the Moon.
How did I even get here?

Pillbug

explosivo posted:

Had a guy in a game last night running around with a knife who was able to effectively stunblock you by kicking you, slashing you, kick, slash, kick, slash, etc. and holy gently caress was it infuriating.
Seeing trash talking dagger only guys has made it more satisfying to kill those guys with a hatchet

Section Z
Oct 1, 2008

Wait, this is the Moon.
How did I even get here?

Pillbug

oswald ownenstein posted:

I don't know but there's probably a reason like 2% of the playerbase is the Footman/man at arms

I just miss the original one from the beta or whatever when they were faster and had the NYEH

Now everyone does and their perk is.....you can go into sprint mode faster? like wtf lol

the whole point of Mason Order MAA was spamming "heeelp! i need HEEELP!" and "no!" when you ran away from knights in the original

That's because there's so much mayhem and wild two handers being swung around at neck level that trying to get cute often gets you killed lol, so your lizard brain just goes "DOESNT WORK LETS MASH M1"
I've been mostly playing Poleman and Engineer (Shovel gets all the hype, but oh my god the Sledgehammer Q has a sudden forward lunge at the end of the windup that keeps catching people off guard ), but one thing that stands out to me about Man at Arms isn't "Well they have a shorter dodge cooldown!", or their weapon selection.

It is the fact they removed the tackle the other two Footman subclasses have. He has a small shield, he should be BETTER at tackling Captain America style. So MAA can't running shoulder tackle other MAA off a cliff. Now I'm wondering if only some of the Knight subclasses have Tackle, on that note.

Section Z
Oct 1, 2008

Wait, this is the Moon.
How did I even get here?

Pillbug

cerebral posted:

The purpose of archers is to draw the attention of aggressive players so I can get easy charge kills with my spear on the way to the main battle.
I have seen master duel bastards effortlessly dodge and weave through an entire burning bridge defense only to easily have the back of their skull caved in as they fail to finish off any of the archers on the back lines. Then they do it again. and again. Which of course means the archers are OP and ruining the match, not my sledgehammer

At this point I'm pretty sure half the people spamming "Archers are scum" in chat are trying distract people from this sort of failure. That and all the knights and vanguards cowering in fear behind an archer pulling a knife and rushing into a brawl.

"Wow, great job clearing out the attackers guys... guys? Oh it's only the half dead archer still here with me."

Honestly my biggest gripes around archery are a more broad subject. The realization you can't go full captain America tackle because raising your shield means you can't tackle, and guys throwing their primary weapon or throwing axes at me are usually a bigger issue there. Denying me knocking people off cliffs countless times because the kick seems to have gently caress all knock back. My runner up is "Why don't archers deal more damage to archers?"

Babe Magnet posted:

yeah and in several of the maps they can actually hit you and fire from zones where you're not allowed to be. I can't count how many times I've tried to rush an archer and my screen goes dark and tells me I'm in a no no zone and will commit seppuku if I hang out too long

These zones seem terribly implemented in general because even having your back against a gate you are defending as your objective will trigger this warning. So that clearly isn't enemy spawncamp protection, it's our territory!

Section Z
Oct 1, 2008

Wait, this is the Moon.
How did I even get here?

Pillbug

Long Spear chat just had me realize they gave the partisan model to a weapon that can't make wide sweeping horizontal swings as part of the moveset


Hub Cat posted:

I like hatchets for ambusher personally. Seems to 1-2 shot non-knights if I catch them from behind and good for throwing. Works for me in a standup fight because I generally like slower higher damage weapons.

I tried the cudgel but I didn't really like it, doing a little better against Knights doesn't seem worth the tradeoff against everybody else.

I wish the Ambusher had throwing hammers. Honestly I wish the throwing hammers were an option for more subclasses because they look and feel amazing even if they are probably very impractical.

While I am doing minor weapon aesthetic vs function nitpicks. Throwing axe icon shows three axes, but you only get two with the knight

Section Z
Oct 1, 2008

Wait, this is the Moon.
How did I even get here?

Pillbug

Babe Magnet posted:

hosed up how Vanguard is the only class that gets the dagger, I loving love this thing. Even the Archer only gets the knife.

I'd kill for one of the Knight subclasses to get it. Just a big shiny idiot running around backstabbing everyone for All Of Their HP like a fat ninja
The dagger really, really means it when it says Stronger special attacks.

"So this is just worse than my shortsword in every possible way? Is it even slashing any faster? At least it looks cool-Did my Q attack just deal loving ONE HUNDRED DAMAGE"

And that is front stab damage. It does something like 135 or some bullshit if you’re ambusher lands the dagger Q from behind.

Meanwhile the sprinting attack only does 80. Kinda wild the sprint special is weaker.

EDIT: One mother fucker of a bug. Three times in a row with dagger out, the quiver power on ambusher didn't give me any more throwing knives if I was out.

Section Z fucked around with this message at 10:49 on Jun 15, 2021

Section Z
Oct 1, 2008

Wait, this is the Moon.
How did I even get here?

Pillbug

VulgarandStupid posted:

I played the filthy ranged classes last night. Jav thrower was probably the most fun. Stay close to fights and throw Javs in peoples’s backs, especially their good players.

The fact that team damage is so low makes it so ranged dudes are willing to shoot into group fights and there’s almost no consequence for missing.
Meanwhile, in Footman Land.

"Here have a medkit OH gently caress, he died. IT KEEPS HAPPENING!"

I mean sure hitting a healthy ally in the armored thighs with three throwing knives is different than "Throw a fanny pack full of bricks at someone you think looks a bit too maimed", but still

Section Z
Oct 1, 2008

Wait, this is the Moon.
How did I even get here?

Pillbug

School Nickname posted:

Anyone have a good alternative bind for jab? R is patently stupid for it, but my muscle memory is too strong to overcome by switching it to E.
Step 1 for me was "Unbind flourish from mouse wheel click because I'm a loving idiot who keeps accidentally causing it"
Step 2 later suffering a similar problem as you was "Hey let's try binding jab to mouse wheel click instead?"
EDIT: which to be fair. Then caused me to keep hitting R perfectly and forgetting I had it bound to mousewheel click

My current record is jabbing someone six times in a row, so it must have been destiny.

Section Z fucked around with this message at 13:48 on Jun 18, 2021

Section Z
Oct 1, 2008

Wait, this is the Moon.
How did I even get here?

Pillbug

cerebral posted:

I don't generally like calling for nerfs in a game, especially before the dust has even settled from release, and therefore I hate myself for this, but I hope they nerf the Messer into the ground and salt the earth where it is buried. I hope everyone who "mains Messer" gets forced to wear a skin with a giant "M" emblazoned on it so we can all recognize who the shitters are for all time. I hope archers forevermore respond to insults with, "Oh yeah? Well at least I don't use a Messer!"

My greatest joy in this game murdering helicopter Messer twats, but that isn't always easy because if they realize that they have a stab button along with a swing button, it's a real tough fight. That loving stab comes out so quick and starts doing damage so early....grrrrrrrr. I mad. There are a lot of weapons that have some of the same advantages as the Messer, the Messer just seems to have all of the advantages in one package.
If I hit 10 people in a row with the Messer underhand sweep, it is good odds someone in the chat will be complaining about shortsword thrusts or short spear thrusts or long spear thrusts or anything that isn't big swing favored. And if I joke about how easy a time I'm having with the Messer special someone will start complaining about the thrust instead.

Knowing the usual trends in these games? I think a lot of people will clamor for "Nerf the stab! The clearly only thing to strong on the messer honest" and quietly say nothing about how insanely easy it is for even an idiot like me to racking up an insane killstreak by slashing people in the shins. Kind of like how there have been a few times I see people declare the Longsword 80 damage overhand special "Not that strong, it's only 80 damage" then go right back to declaring the short spear is too strong even if the last thing to kill them was me bashing their brains out with the hilt of a longsword.

EDIT: That said, I think something might be genuinely wrong with the greatsword thrust. Even with how wacky the netcode can be, that one gives me a consistent vibe of "but my sword was nowhere near them, how did I stab them to death?" but understandably most of the attention is on the maximum helicopter masters with the biggest sword in the game.

Section Z fucked around with this message at 18:26 on Jun 19, 2021

Section Z
Oct 1, 2008

Wait, this is the Moon.
How did I even get here?

Pillbug

Farm Frenzy posted:

i'd love a baby noob feature that make enemy weapons start glowing when theyre in the actually damaging part of the attack. the most annoying weapons to fight are the ones that engage really early or late while the actual model is barely moving
Even just a more genuine training bots mode would be pretty good if you wanted to get a feel for particular things.

Section Z
Oct 1, 2008

Wait, this is the Moon.
How did I even get here?

Pillbug

Ciaphas posted:

Are Vanguards really the only ones that can use mauls

I wanna be a Crusader with a maul

Maybe it balances out because the axe only Knights are allowed to use sounds like an anvil crushing your skill when you die.

Ciaphas posted:

the third subclass uses javelins instead of a bow, right? throwing weapons're cool, i'll die on that hill, but to have to play archer t o get it...

They also unlock throwing axes instead of Javelins at class level 15 Just tell yourself you are doing it to grind throwing axe cosmetics for the knight faster, because they get six at a time instead of two.

It seems uh... very situational whether or not you rack up points or wonder why you bothered. But at least friendly fire is a hell of a lot less awkward when someone zigzags between your axe and a fellow archer's skull.

Section Z
Oct 1, 2008

Wait, this is the Moon.
How did I even get here?

Pillbug

Diogines posted:

All of those weapons trade off something for the thing they are good at.

The shortsword is lowish damage and short range. The greatsword is slow. The spear is... okay it is a little awkward to use and lowish on damage. The longsword is just a worse Messer.

Those weapons (except for longsword) trade something for what they excel at, the messer trades nothing. It is not the longest or the fastest or the highest damage... but is it pretty long and pretty fast and pretty high damage. It comes in as a solid B in all the categories that matter. If you were to use RPG terms it has the highest cumulative stats, by far.

Messer use is also probably inflated by the other options the Vanguard subclass with it has.

Dane axe: More fun to throw than swing.
Two handed hammer: Fun to use but has some odd "Weak vs vanguards" damage numbers going on.
Glaive: It is the glaive. And I still see more vanguards using this than the hammer.

Really "Why isn't this *big not sword* stronger?" seems to be as big, if not a bigger problem at times.

Like, I just realized according to the online chart the Pole Axe's special attack only deals the same damage as it's heavy overhand/stab. On top of having a weaker slash in spite of being an AXE on a stick no amount of "Well... the thrust is as strong as the overhand!" keeps that from feeling awkward

Also the double trait of both "Higher stamina drain AND higher shield damage!" seems lackluster in practice because it is just so slow, and also shorter than other polearms, that I have much better luck pressuring or destroying knight shields with other weapons. Considering I love zipping in to crunch a shield and watch teammates swarm a guy, that is another reason the pole axe has been kind of a letdown to me personally even if the spreadsheet says "...But if you DO land those heavy attacks, oh man."

EDIT: I just realized the two handed hammer is shorter than the pole axe while listing the same speed. But it has always been a much smoother time for me to zip in and bonk people or blocks with the special attack so now I'm even more baffled why the designed seemingly for my tastes pole axe isn't clicking with me.

Section Z fucked around with this message at 20:57 on Jun 21, 2021

Section Z
Oct 1, 2008

Wait, this is the Moon.
How did I even get here?

Pillbug

Hub Cat posted:

Vanguard is like a glass cannon, Knight and Footman can both take more hits and have shield subclasses

edit: At least that is the intended balance I mean
Except when Vanguards are beefy boys because "Improved special damage" means hitting them over the head with a morning star special is something like 65 damage.

I'm glad the unique to knight warhammer is good, it is even pretty decent against Vanguards for a blunt weapon. But oh man I keep wildly spiraling between thinking the Morning Star is cool and "Is this actually kind of terrible?" Probably not helped because I keep forgetting the big spikey ball has bad thrust damage even against a knight "because blunt".

Section Z fucked around with this message at 19:25 on Jun 22, 2021

Section Z
Oct 1, 2008

Wait, this is the Moon.
How did I even get here?

Pillbug

have you seen my baby posted:

A lot of the Chiv2 weapons are strong for kind of cheesy reasons

...the shovel is just legitimately strong
The speed bar (and damage bar, and even the reach bar) can also feel more like a vague suggestion given cases like the Shovel having the same speed "stat" as the Sledge hammer. And then a list of traits all saying "Faster when it does X"

So given that kind of presentation I can't blame people for feeling that the Shovel is surprisingly fast if they just do a quick glance at the class screen meters after being killed by a shovel for the Nth time.

Section Z
Oct 1, 2008

Wait, this is the Moon.
How did I even get here?

Pillbug

Perestroika posted:

Another great tip for being a good team player: If you see three of your friends mobbing a guy, just leave em alone and go fight somewhere else. Adding more bodies to the pileup won't help getting the victim dead faster, if anything you'll end up getting in the way. And while you're busy whaling away on some dude 5v1, your teammates getting overwhelmed and outnumbered on the frontlines.

That said, if it's just a 2v1, it may be a good idea to go help, if you can get behind the target. Cause I guarantee you, the moment you turn your back on what should be an easy kill for one or two teammates, the enemy will suddenly hulk out, kill them both, and come to bonk you in the back of the head.
Adjust how big a 1v3+ crowd you approach with how confident you are in slipping in attacks in the cluster gently caress. Sometimes you see five guys failing to kill someone and you just calmly picking your moment to crush them with a big overhand special or pull out a sword or knife, or even jab them then walk away as everyone lands their follow up helps.

Not so much if you are sure you'll get murdered by your own team (or murder them instead) for the trouble though

Even with team damage reduction it is probably real reckless of me to gleefully thread the needle with pole hammer specials next to allied knights.

Section Z
Oct 1, 2008

Wait, this is the Moon.
How did I even get here?

Pillbug

Aerith Gainthborough posted:

I unlocked pickaxe but never used it. Any tips?
There could be something to the traits of "Faster windup, slower recovery", but I'm a filthy casual who can't feel out that difference to my benefit so far compared to the sledge.

At this point I'm sure a lot of the shovel popularity isn't just because it is actually good. But also because it feels closer to what the weapon selection screen advertises.

You get told the shovel is "weaker but faster", and it has average damage and indeed is faster with a decent special against everything. So it feels good to use.

You get told the pick axe still gets a bonus damage against knights and footmen due to chop and has "Increased special damage". But I think the special might actually be weaker against everything than the shovel? On top of not smashing a knight as hard as the sledge.

That reminds me. I think the sledgehammer's special is weaker than it's own heavy overhand because ??? Good thing it's heavy overhand is still nice. Sledge still feels good to use overall so I think I should get back to that sooner than later.

Section Z fucked around with this message at 01:15 on Jun 26, 2021

Section Z
Oct 1, 2008

Wait, this is the Moon.
How did I even get here?

Pillbug

BeeSeeBee posted:

I love making this already bullshit map even more aggravating for Agatha

The griping about field engies was about even with complaints about archers

Don't worry, wooden walls (and spikes) seem to self destruct after a certain amount of time. Boy is that always a rude surprise for the defenders

"Only 30 seconds left guys, they won't be freeing the prisoner for the 'kill the shirtless warrior' sequence today-Why did everyone's walls just explode in sequence?"

BeeSeeBee posted:

Yeah, you can often beeline to the furthest cage at spawn, get behind it and open it at least most of the way before the second or third spawn wave notices you. In that match we also had archers throwing up their pavises and spike traps along the sides to help. So many places on that map where you can wall off an objective with just a few players replenishing fortifications and make it nearly impossible to get through.

Rear cart feels nearly indefensible if it is out the starting gate. So far as my track record of smashing the rear of the cart while people chase me around hitting me expecting me to turn around and fight them instead of break cages goes.

Section Z fucked around with this message at 22:32 on Jun 28, 2021

Section Z
Oct 1, 2008

Wait, this is the Moon.
How did I even get here?

Pillbug

Captain Beans posted:

I think its only when the player who placed it changes classes, then they despawn instantly.
Nah it is both (or building new stuff).

I've seen it happen when I've been on a long stretch of staying alive as an engineer, or anybody with wood spikes. Eventually they seem to just spontaneously combust while I'm just standing there with nobody around to be smashing them. Extra rude with the spikes because those have balsa wood HP compared to mordhau and you can't reload them. So wood spikes lasting for any length of time including not having teammates deliberately break them when they are pointed at an enemy ladder or ramp exit is a miracle in the first place.

As hilarious as it would be if the game was getting confused and destroying them when someone else changes classes or builds new things, I'm betting some kind of time limit.

Section Z fucked around with this message at 23:38 on Jun 28, 2021

Section Z
Oct 1, 2008

Wait, this is the Moon.
How did I even get here?

Pillbug

Jabarto posted:

I haven't unlocked it yet, so can someone tell me why the dane axe specifically is so good for throwing? Does it just do a lot of damage? Does it fly straighter/faster/etc than other things?
Yes it does a ton of damage. Yes it seems to be a reliable arc and even if you don't land a headshot it is good damage. Also Vanguard can throw and auto-switch to another primary (which can be ANOTHER dane axe!) about as fast as a dedicated throwing weapon.

For example. If you throw a javelin at a vanguard's chest, it barely edges into exaggeration to say they can throw two dane axes in retaliation while you are still locked in your defenseless T pose cooldown for throwing a javelin. But those seem to have a notably long vulnerability window compared to throwing axes, knives, and mallets anyways.

Which goes from pathetic to incredibly hilarious if I'M the one throwing dane axes at skirmishers.

Section Z fucked around with this message at 01:47 on Jun 30, 2021

Section Z
Oct 1, 2008

Wait, this is the Moon.
How did I even get here?

Pillbug

totalnewbie posted:

I've never played any of these types of games - should I just buy Chivalry 2 if I want to give one a whirl?

Mode 7 posted:

Yeah, it's significantly more approachable and accessible than Mordhau.
While the usual attention on swing to win is the Vanguard with a big sword, you can also try your luck with the initial Footman subclass, Poleman if you just want to get used to angry yelling war zones.

They start with a Halberd (with a bardiche model and you need to unlock the halberd cosmetic because?) which will let you waddle into a team fight and poke or overhand smash enemies casually fending off a 1vX real good. in particular as special attack swings stagger people for a moment when blocked.

Looking back at the equip screens, seems like the initial unlocked stuff for the Vanguard is a Battle Axe (which has an absurdly strong special attack if the Vanguard is using it), and the initial knight subclass is doubled up on swords with the Longsword and "Sword". All good weapons, and the Knight "Double swords" is more user friendly speed wise for trying to out duel someone. They are just a bit more finicky for trying to shoulder your way through a crowd getting your own hits in.

Oh, right. Offline Bots match is counter intuitive not because bots are stupid. But because bots seem to have reduced hitpoints so even the Archer can survive stuff that would one shot them.

Section Z fucked around with this message at 19:14 on Jun 30, 2021

Section Z
Oct 1, 2008

Wait, this is the Moon.
How did I even get here?

Pillbug

Hugoon Chavez posted:

I love bots, the game would be less fun without them! They need some AI tweaks, like when they get stuck carrying ladders after the bridge in Lionspire, but I hope they keep them as dumb as they are right now.
Bots always knew the prison wagon's needed to be defended on all sides, so I wonder what other unintuitive secrets they are guarding between the idiocy

Section Z
Oct 1, 2008

Wait, this is the Moon.
How did I even get here?

Pillbug

ten_twentyfour posted:

So is the netcode broken in this game? I usually have single-digit pings but without fail every game there's a kill by some guy way too far away, hitting me on their backswing. Arrows and thrown objects going right through people standing still. I also get a ton of what feels like when two round collision objects rub against each other and instead of eating a swing or even blocking it, they just kinda warp around and behind me. It's not dodging.
Sometimes I see enemies flash step teleporting their way towards a fight and they don't stabilize until they have already hit someone.

Today was a new(?) one though. Lots of times there would be an enemy player charging at is, and then attacks would pass through them harmlessly as they keep going and everyone hitting them would just awkwardly stop and look for another fight. This would be in the middle of a match too so it isn't the start of match "Big wave of players auto sprinting on spawn while staring at a menu still" deal, you can kill those guys

As for odd collisions, while I'm hazy about attacks a lot of hitboxes on the terrain seem incredibly hosed if you want to use longer duration sprint attacks like a poleman rush or the tackle. Lots of times you stumble on an invisible rock or bounce off an invisible force field 15 feet away from the enemy. Or a new one today where I tackled someone and then it teleported me 90 degrees and five feet to the side into a nearby wall of spikes. I have also had this happen with a standing kick where I kicked a guy with his back to the wall and it warped me through his body to die on the spikes.

Section Z fucked around with this message at 23:03 on Jun 30, 2021

Section Z
Oct 1, 2008

Wait, this is the Moon.
How did I even get here?

Pillbug

This probably will only have an real effect on "Double Dane Axe" players. But I just realized, there seems to be some quirks with Vanguard's weapon cosmetics because they are the only ones who can double up on the same weapon.

I finally splurged on a new Dane axe with the alternate model, and realized if you go double dane axe the second one is still the default model. I expect I probably would have noticed sooner if I didn't spend 99% of the time in 1st person as opposed to roughly 50/50 in past games

Trying out double daggers (how did this end up my highest rank weapon?) my first one is the fancy velvet and gold one, and the second dagger is the previous dagger model I had bought (Same model, less fancy texture). So maybe it is using some odd "The PREVIOUS cosmetic you had used will be your doubled up weapon model" deal?

On a lighter note, seems that Vanguard dagger is the basis of the suicide animation. So while everyone else is stuck with the default rusty dagger, A vanguard kills himself with style.

Section Z
Oct 1, 2008

Wait, this is the Moon.
How did I even get here?

Pillbug

Exodee posted:

The 2-handed hammer feels like a worse polehammer to me, in every single way. Granted, you can only take the polehammer on a footman, but it's not like that's a disadvantage or anything; they can take the shortsword as a secondary after all.

Speaking of which, I think the shortsword is way too good to be classified as a mere sidearm

I can understand a vibe of "Two handed hammer not QUITE as good as the pole hammer" because the pole hammer is supposed to be a big deal signature weapon for the Poleman subclass, while the two-handed hammer is the toy everybody else gets. It is still a very nice blunt weapon of the "wait, when did I get over rank so high with this?" variety.

This in turn, is why I am so over the pole AXE feeling lackluster outside of a spreadsheet. Because it is a big axe on a stick. Hitting people with light swings on a two handed hammer is still satisfying. While light swings on the pole axe feel like a pool noodle, and has a weaker special attacks weaker than the two handed hammer's heavy over hands universally because...?.

Though I can understand the bias considering the polehammer used to be a vanguard exclusive in Chiv 1. So of course you expect the vanguard to have a monopoly on "The best big blunt weapons" rather than it just being pleasantly strong. But then, Vanguard stole the maul from the knight this time around

As for the "Shortsword too good?" mantra, I have found that the Hatchet really earns the fact it's cosmetics are thousands more expensive than the short sword. Short sword is very nice, but it can't universally two shot every single class in the game with a heavy overhand

I know the short sword is more meta friendly and legit (over?)powerful for it's class. But I hate going back to it on any subclass that can take a hatchet instead now. Though I think that "Side arms can be good too, you know." is an important mindset to have though if you want to kill people pulling any of them out. So many people ignoring this and expecting any and all small sidearms to be a desperate joke weapon is probably why I got away with so many throwing mallet kills. Which goes back to the joke about expecting Vangaurd to have all the best blunt toys to himself.

"Hey. how come the vanguard has sole ownership of the carpentry mallet, on top of the usual knife. Shouldn't engineer have this instead of zero secondary weapons?" "uh... Well, you see.... Shovel OP." I would gladly accept big nerfs to the mean old "joke weapon" if engineer got throwing mallets out of it.

Section Z fucked around with this message at 23:49 on Jul 5, 2021

Section Z
Oct 1, 2008

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cerebral posted:

The glaring weakness of the poleaxe for me is its special. 87 against a knight when the polehammer special does 150? gently caress that noise. All the damage values (minus the stab) feel just a bit under-tuned. Honestly it may be the weapon that I find the most disappointing.

Yeah that stands out as well because of my vague casual feelings on "weapon feel", because of it being in the odd category of weapons with a special attack as bad or worse than their normal attacks. To bring it back to the two-handed hammer, that has a stronger special against vanguards than the pole axe too, and the heavy overhand is just as strong as the pole axe heavy thrust/overhand.

Which also stands out no matter how many times people say "But the (slow, heavy) thrust on the pole axe is good!". I know that I get more mileage out of the slightly weaker executioner axe heavy thrust nobody seems to expect to be good damage because of how swing to win aesthetic it is.

The tiny hatchet is in the "Special attack is WEAKER than the heavy attack" club, but it is a tiny little murder machine I would bet on over a pole axe.

Speaking of surprisingly bad special attacks on "But if you treat it like a sword, then-" weapons. The Glaive also has a special attack problem unique to vanguards. I could swear the leaping vanguard only special is something like, 20 damage tops? But that is clearly a bug rather than by design... hopefully.

EDIT: Pick axe is the weapon I am currently most disappointed by.

"Okay so it lists 'stronger special' but it is only as strong as it's own heavy attack. Which in turn is weaker than a sledge heavy attack (or shovel attack). It has a chop bonus vs footmen but deals little baby knife slash five hits to kill damage against footmen with the light swing. It just... why is this so poo poo?" "...Well, it has a faster-" "I get the feeling that is just as much of a letdown as it also claiming to have a 'strong special'"

Section Z fucked around with this message at 01:23 on Jul 6, 2021

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Oct 1, 2008

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Jarmak posted:

Just played two rounds where it was a miserable slog because the enemy team had a coordinated crossbow line, but then won because they couldn't kill the heir.

3 crossbow dudes plus a guy with a shield guarding them is miserable to fight, double so when they did poo poo like get high ground and line up their pavise shields on the stairs
There is exactly one thing I get for real mad about regarding enemy archers, and that is "Why don't archers deal bonus damage to other longbow/crossbowmen?" every time I land the first body shot and then the universe bends over backwards to block my follow up shots before something kills me.

As much because of how the Javelin reload is so deliberately gently caress you garbage that if you don't nail that headshot arc, a longbowman can shoot you 2-3 times while you are locked in your helpless T pose reload phase (not that the skirmisher shield seems to do much good against arrows anyways). The fact Javelin is a very specific "85 damage, not quite enough to kill an archer without a headshot teehee" just rubs it in.

Grinding up throwing axe levels on Skirmisher so they would look pretty on the knight faster was it's own special brand of cartoonish parody in that regard with my bad luck having it merely down archers instead of outright kill them on top

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Oct 1, 2008

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TorakFade posted:

it pisses me off greatly that most times, archers are also very good at melee - when I manage to reach them, they just whip out a secondary and kick my rear end. Guys if you're good with swords GO STICK ENEMIES WITH THEM instead of plinking away to get the most kills, drat it

incidentally I want to unlock the crossbowman but longbow archery bores me, would it be feasible to just toss the bow when spawning and grab a decent weapon off the ground, or the lower health means I'd just be dying instantly? (I still haven't figured how not to get hit )
Use the hatchet instead of a shortsword to attain enlightenment. Remember to use the nuclear heavy overhand instead of the reduced weaker damage special attack.

Section Z
Oct 1, 2008

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Pillbug

Jarmak posted:

Yeah the short sword is actually a pretty awesome weapon in it's own right and the only real disadvantage to the archers is their health pool. I don't play archer very often but when I do I was running around shooting bolts from the second rank and stepping up to fill gaps with my secondary (my weapon XP at the end was usually pretty 50/50 between the crossbow and the melee weapon).

Shooting into the melee is pretty gross if you time your shots to miss your friends instead of aiming to hit your enemy. I've found that usually when a friendly moves out of the way an enemy quickly fills the gap. Crossbow is good for this because of it's instant release, the longbow and javelins take too long to fire so you're just as likely to hit a friendly because everything shifts again before your shot actually gets off.

Javelins should 100% either get their damage increased, or get a bonus against archers; there's no reason they shouldn't one-shot.
Archers having poo poo stamina is also ties into Javelins needing some love and clearly suffering all of the pre-launch "But what if spear TOO GOOD " whipping boy pains.

Javelins takes 1/3 of their bar to throw one, and 1/2 their bar to use their special attack that deals all of fifty damage So when you casually block an enemy skirmisher throwing a javelin at you they are either open to chop their loving head off/throw two dane axes at them due to the huge recovery time, or will get stamina crushed in short order if they have any time to block.

... Oh my loving god, I just realized the Javelin is also in the "Only as strong/weaker than heavy attacks", heavy swing is as strong as the poo poo special, heavy overhand and thrust are stronger At this point I'm most thankful to internet numbers not for fishing for "The best numbers". But for all of the moments of "No you are not crazy, the special attack on X really is kind of poo poo." letting me get better mileage out of weapons you need to ignore people saying "Well actually it is OP!" in game chat to get the most out of.

See also, the "TECHNICALLY it deals more damage than a heavy attack... +8 more damage against a knight than the heavy attack. Wow!" Morning star. Which I went from struggling with to a nonstop killing spree with by admitting the special and thrust are incredibly poo poo in spite of the nature of the weapon implying ("A blunt class sharp ball of spikes should have better thrusting damage against a knight than a flat blunt weapon, right?") or outright claiming they would be stronger than average (Strong special attack trait). At least that weapon is overall good enough to make up for it's shortcomings.

Section Z fucked around with this message at 14:39 on Jul 7, 2021

Section Z
Oct 1, 2008

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dog nougat posted:

drat, been loving around with the 2-handed spear on footman class. It's special charge attack is sweet af.

Ravenfood posted:

The poleman gets that charge attack with all of their weapons. Oddly, because of how the damage works, that charge does more damage to knights/footmen with the halberd (and probably the polehammer, I need to try it again and maybe wean off my need to have attacks carry through opponents).
You feel it most with the spear because it has the most "oh this is stronger than the regular attack?" because it is +20ish damage over the heavy instead of "...is that a MINUS two damage?" like the polehammer charge. It is also the one that deals the most damage to vanguards of the four polearm charges. Which I expect goes a long way to why most of the in game longspear rage I see is coming from swing to win vanguards and (so far) I have yet to see a knight start screaming about it in chat.

Also, don't forget the poleman can do the knight tackle. I started leaning into that not just because of my terrible luck with the weapon charge glitching so my weapon harmlessly sticks through their back for two seconds. But also because of the above mentioned fact that the pole hammer (And halberd) charges don't do meaningfully more damage than a heavy attack. So now I often shove em to the ground for a bit of damage then hope for the best with the follow up, knight with an executioner axe style.

Shame the tackle causes some kind of cooldown on your special attacks. Imagine following up a tackle with the polehammer special swing

Section Z
Oct 1, 2008

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Ravenfood posted:

I cannot for the life of me get the timing on the tackle down, especially as the knight. Also, it's bullshit thay the MAA doesn't get it since it seems like such an obvious choice given their shield.
For what it is worth, both the tackle and charge seem janky as hell not in your favor. There is a lot of cases of bouncing off thin air charging across less than even ground, and like my adventures with kick physics can warp you through an enemy with his back to a spike wall to impale yourself to death I can go from a dozen smooth tackles in a row to it being a complete poo poo show.

Basically, try to start slightly earlier than you think, and if you are within the same zipcode as a teammate it will hit them at 90 degrees and deflect you rather than the enemy right in front of you. Also you are not able to do it with the shield lifted, so get ready to eat a dane axe to the face if you are dead set on tackling a vanguard who sees you coming.

It is more bullshit the engineer doesn't get the tackle because at least the footman has a shield and dodge bonus, while engineer just gets people screaming at them their only joy in life is overpowered while their walls and spikes self destruct from an invisible timer just in time for the next wave of enemies

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Oct 1, 2008

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cerebral posted:

Tonight, when I finally hit 50 on the Knight class, I plan on switching over to the Vanguard and playing 20 levels with that, and the vast majority of that time is going to be spent rocking double Dane axes, and I cannot wait for it. That combo is so satisfying to play. I will murder so many archers with long range throws, I've been looking forward to this for a week, ever since I decided to solely focus on Knight and not bounce back and forth between classes.
You might like Battle axe more on vanguard than knight , Vanguard leap with battle axe is a loving bonkers 138 damage to knights, making it stronger than most blunt weapons vs knights.

The big reason Exec axe and War axe will always feel better and even kill more easily is-

Internet Explorer posted:

Getting into a crowded chokepoint and just swinging for the fences with Executioner Axe heavy swings is just marvelous.

Big swings for big wins! The sword game way. The length is also more useful for knight tackle follow ups, and the Executioner axe length having a rock solid heavy thrust like the battle axe is able to rack more "I can't believe he fell for that!" kills.

War axe is cool, but the raw killing power seems slightly worse except for if you love aiding team fights due to the wild world of "Hits to kill (in a duel)" making the slightly stronger heavy overhand and standing special a moot point. And according to internet numbers, the War axe light Overhands are not any stronger than the executioner axe in spite of having a "Stronger overhands" trait because... gently caress you weapon Vanguards can't use, I guess? (While the battle axe gets extra strong light overhands than can two-shot a vanguard or footman).

I love helping team fights so I'm a lot more happy to see takedown pop ups after I hit somebody in the back of the head with a heavy or special for +10-12 more damage than the executioner axe that doesn't actually kill enemies any faster personally. But even then the stronger Executioner axe heavy thrust is more useful for ramming into the ribs of an enemy knight in a crowd

War axe sounds amazing when it kills something though, so that makes it a joy to hit things with beyond efficiency at least

Section Z fucked around with this message at 02:24 on Jul 11, 2021

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Oct 1, 2008

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VulgarandStupid posted:

This will probably sound weird but I don’t use specials. I can’t remember which one is a big overhead, or a big side swing, or a charge or a small underhand. Does it differ between classes, too? I don’t pay enough attention to if my run indicator is on or not. I do know the most efficient way to put out damage to multiple targets is the executioner axe heavy side swing though.
Not weird at all because they are often too slow to really take advantage in a "duel" standoff or trying to kill multiple people at once.

Special attacks have guard break properties that you don't seem to recover from fast enough to take advantage of, but are wonderful in a team fight and drain more enemy stamina. If you don't just kill the target outright with a direct hit with some of the stronger ones like the polehammer. Because I am a violent cave man who likes team fights and stamina drain, I tend to use special attacks quite a bit with most weapons. For quick 1vs1 brawls they won't help as much against people who are nonstop offense, but it is criminal how many special attacks I get away with against people clearly fishing for counters.

Vanguard in particular gets an alternate special attack during a sprint. The gap in power varies, and while USUALLY stronger there are some weapons where the vanguard sprint special deal "Less than a normal special, more than a heavy attack", like the Maul. (Though I think the Glaive is clearly glitchy to only do something like 20 damage for that). Normally it is stuff like letting the "weaker damage" war club deal triple digit damage against footmen and knights.

Poleman can do "Charge" specials while sprinting but only the long spear really benefits from it being stronger than a regular attack. The halberd and pole hammer have something like +1/-2 damage on the charges. The hitboxes seem super hosed because half the time you will have your halberd shoved through someone's back for a solid 1.3 seconds and no damage happens. So now as much as I love specials now I just do a normal heavy attack (or tackle) sprinting in with the poleman usually.

All knights can tackle if you hit the kick button while sprinting, and only the poleman subclass can do that for footman. It also suffers from some wild hitboxes so for every time you shoulder check someone parry master into a spike wall to their death, is a time where it warps you sideways into a spike wall through an enemy body.

Also it is turning out that there are some weapons with special attacks that are only as strong, or weaker, than regular heavy attacks. I love the hatchet, but the special attack is notably weaker than the heavy overhand able to two-shot everything in the game. pickaxe lists "stronger special" but it's only as strong as the heavy attack. The sledge heavy attack is stronger than the pick axe, but sledge has a weaker special than it's own heavy attack because ???

Section Z fucked around with this message at 07:43 on Jul 11, 2021

Section Z
Oct 1, 2008

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cerebral posted:

Yep, you were right, I tried it out on vanguard today and I enjoy it a lot more on that class. Really good Duke killing weapon, fun to clear out those rooms with the slashes and plant an overhead in the Duke's face.
The fact Vanguards are faster and don't have a sprint cooldown penalty like the Knight probably helps your desire to run around finding as many new people to kill as possible

This reminds me. I am honestly curious what the ground speed comparisons of "120 Speed Vanguard has no move speed penalty as Devastator" vs "100 speed Footman is 10% faster as Man At Arms" is.

Considering how hit and miss the effects of traits vs what they give you actually are ("War axe has stronger overhands!" "How come the light overhand is the same as executioner axe then?" "...Well the heavy one is slightly stronger, It still counts!" ) I would not be surprised if Vanguard devastator only had a faster sprint and no basic walk speed bonus.

Section Z
Oct 1, 2008

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School Nickname posted:

Is there literally no counter window against one-handed weapons? Duelyards are loving full of these jumping insta riposting sweatlords. I feel like a goomba. Their feints are straight up faster than my ripostes/counters.

bees everywhere posted:

Dodge and jab! Float like a butterfly, sting like a bee.
I'm a horrible casual and Jabs have been such a goddamned lifesaver, even if I don't look into the whole dueling lifestyle jabbing more often has turned around a lot fights against a guy with 6,000+ points rushing me looking for blood in team modes.

That said, considering how much I love trying to disarm people I actually get mileage out of a jab hit follow up attempt getting blocked, often disarming a shortsword user if things are going well, so I can then kill them at my leisure. So even getting my follow up attack after a jab blocked is a win in the caveman play book.

A whole lot of people in game seem violently opposed to the idea that jabs are useful, going by how many people start angrily declaring jabs are worthless in game chat when I start thanking Jabs for killing faster people with my slow pole hammer or whatever. Because it does not guarantee them a free kill hit against a shortsword/short spear/regular sword/etc user with your slower two-handed weapon, so therefore must worthless

Section Z fucked around with this message at 02:52 on Jul 16, 2021

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Section Z
Oct 1, 2008

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Pillbug

Wait a minute... Isn't thrown medkit a footman only skill? Or have I been overlooking away to throw medkits as archer this whole time.

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