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CommonShore
Jun 6, 2014

A true renaissance man




I'm going to just make one thread with a quick OP since most people who are interested in the one are interested in the other. Post links and stuff here. It'll be fun. I want to see all of the highlights from both sports in one place! I'm not even sure if they're happening at the same time. I'll cobble information into this post as it comes up.

Why should I watch?
Because this is where some of the best overall athleticism is going to be found. Weight lifters are stronger, long jumpers are more explosive, gymnasts are more dexterous, and runners have better endurance, but nobody is better all of them together than the grapplers. Wrestling, especially, is one of the most difficult, ancient, and universal sports in the world. It's awesome.

What are my options?

Olympic Judo

This is pyjama hugfighting for men and women. Judoka (fighters) grip each other's gi (pyjamas) and can score by throws, pins, or submission via strangle or armlock. A solid throw where the opponent lands on (or rolls across) their back with force and control is Ippon, which is an instant win to the match. A 20 second pin, or a submission also scores ippon. A lesser throw where the opponent e.g. lands on their side, scores Waza-ari, and two Waza-ari convert to ippon for an instant win.

The most notable rule for judo (and there are lots of little ones that nobody other than refs can keep track of) (I'm actually a judo ref fwiw so I can try to answer questions) is that touching the leg from a standing position is a penalty. There are other penalties of course (and 3 penalties = DQ), but that really colours the dynamic of the sport's stand-up phase, making it, theoretically, more upright with higher amplitude throws.

Leading judo nations include Japan, USA, Brazil, Russia, France, Korea and Mongolia. Nations like Canada, Georgia, Israel, and Italy often punch above their weight.

Out of 14 possible divisions, the following countries hare sending 10+ Athletes: Brazil, France, Germany, Israel, Japan, Mongolia, Netherlands, Korea, "Russian Olympic Committee," and Uzbekistan.


Judo begins day 1

WHO TO WATCH (under construction)
Team Japan Japan as a nation is extremely defensive and protective of Judo, and it maintains a lot of control over the international ruleset, frequently leading to grumbling and complaints about problems in said rules. One of our jokes inside the sport is "do you think they'll do new rules this year?" "We'll see how Japan does at the Olympics" (the joke being that if Japan underperforms, we get new rules). But this is Tokyo 20201: there has been talk for several cycles of Japan trying to develop a super team to defend the home turf, so the stakes are higher than usual. there are two faces I'm familiar with on their team. First, Ono Shohei (-73 kg), who has been around for a while and is fun to watch and extremely good. The middle weight classes tend to be the most exciting, in my opinion, and he's exciting even among them. Aaron Wolf (-100 kg) has an interesting story - he's mixed-race and has faced a lot of racism and opposition on his way to the top of Japanese Judo. He has definitely proven himself. I saw a couple documentary spots on him and he seems to have a chip on his shoulder, for good reason. He has extremely good judo, and I'm happy for him that he's getting this distinguished opportunity. A Reuter's article identifes the Abe siblings in m-66kg and w-52kg as notable, too.

Big Teddy Riner :france: is back, going for his 3rd consecutive olympic gold. He's one of the greatest heavyweights of all time, standing a towering 6'8" or something silly. He's trying to tie the all-time gold medal record at +100kg. The drama is that he lost one of the world championships - i think 2019? (Covid has hosed my sense of time up) - in the interim, by a very narrow margin.

Daria Bilodid (Ukr) w-48kg seems to be generating some excitement too, because she's young and pretty. Young, as in the youngest person ever to win a world championship.

Jessica Klimkait :canada: -57kg Had some drama coming in. Canada's first judo world champion was Japanese-born Christina Deguchi, who switched to team Canada because of some of the above drama "Dream Team" reasons. This spring, Jessica Klimkait beat Deguchi at a major tournament to clinch the spot instead. Everyone I know inside Canadian Judo is mad hype for Klimkait.

Thoguh posted:

Teddy Riner trying to win another Gold is the big one that comes to mind for me. The US team this year is entirely people that were just happy to qualify and might not win a single match, our -52kg woman is ranked 20th and she's the only one that maybe could possibly have a good tournament combined with a lucky draw and make it to a bronze medal match.
The US team must be in a rebuilding phase then, as in 2016 they took a few medals, including Kayla Harrisson, who scooped up her second consecutive gold.


Apparently there is also the mixed team format, which is new to the Olympics but builds on the version well-established in the Japanese college judo system. Info on it here:

https://olympics.com/tokyo-2020/en/news/what-is-the-new-judo-mixed-team-event

TL;DR: each team has 3 men and 3 women of specific weight classes. Athletes go head-to-head with their equivalent on the other team. Results generate team points, and teams advance together.



Greco Roman Wrestling

This is spandex hugfighting with less touching for men only. Only upper body contact is permitted - no leg grabs, shots, trips, etc. It's all done with waist locks and under/over hooks. When greco is good it's amazing because you'll see some gigantic Russian get a waist lock and slam some guy on his head until the refs stop it and give him a gold medal. But greco is often more confusing than freestyle, because once in a while you'll have that same gigantic Russian get told that he doesn't get the gold medal this time because his opponent is too fat, and so the fat man gets the gold instead.

Greco begins August 1

Here's a video about greco rules, posted downthread. TY TheKingslayer!

TheKingslayer posted:

This video is pretty short and sweet on the rules
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vpKX9NvZjZo


Freestyle Wrestling

This is spandex hugfighting for men and women. Basically points are scored by throwing, turning, and pinning the opponent. You can grab your opponent however the hell you want. It's possible to score a technical fall by getting a big lead of like 11 points or something. I'm sure someone will correct me with the details. I've never found that in freestyle wrestling that I've been confused by what happened and who is winning. It's like "oh the guy who just hucked the other guy around and slammed him won. That makes sense."

Leading wrestling nations are the USA, Russia, and I think China often does pretty well. The Japanese women are beasts and some of the most divisionally dominant athletes in any sport. Nations like India, Iran, Afghanistan, and Turkey punch above their weight, as do the scary Eastern European countries.

Freestyle begins August 9


This is from Thoguh's way-better-than-mine 2016 wrestling post.

Thoguh posted:

What is Olympic Wrestling?
There are two styles of wrestling in the Olympics, Freestyle and Greco-Roman. Freestyle is somewhat comparable to Folkstyle (which is what we wrestle in high schools and colleges in the USA) as far as techniques used, but is focused on exposing your opponent's back to the mat vs. controlling your opponent overall like you see in Folk. Greco-Roman is focused purely on upper body and as a result is primarily comprised of throws and body locks. The women wrestle only in Freestyle while the men compete in both Freestyle and Greco-Roman.

Matches consist of two three minute periods with a 30 second break in between. A match can end early from either a pin or from a technical superiority victory (basically a mercy rule that takes effect if you're up by 8 or more in Greco-Roman and 10 or more in Freestyle)

How does scoring work in Wrestling?
Pin: A pin (also called a fall) is awarded if you touch both of your opponents shoulder blades to the mat. A pin in both Olympic styles only requires them to touch, even just rolling through is enough. A pin ends the match.
Takedown: A takedown is worth 2-4 points in Freestyle and 2-5 points in Greco-Roman depending on how high amplitude it was. Basically if you knock the other guy over you get 2 points. If you take him airborne you get 4 or 5.
Reversal: A reversal is worth 1 point
Passivity: A passivity (stalling) call is worth 1 point for your opponent.
Exposure: Exposing your opponents back to the mat is worth 2 points
Step-out: Pretending you're in Sumo and pushing your opponent out of bounds is worth 1 point. A lot of people love this rule for some reason but I'm not a fan, I'd rather see them do out of bounds like Judo does, where going out of bounds as part of normal action isn't penalized, but fleeing the mat is.

1 point is also awarded to your opponent if you take a non-blood injury time or if your coach challenges a score and the initial decision is upheld. Here's a link to the rulebook (.pdf) if you want to know more. Scoring rules are on pages 29 & 30.




Anyone else feel free to add more info below, especially about who is who to watch. I'll quote it into the OP. If Thoguh does a wrestling effortpost like in 2016, I'll delete the wrestling from this and get a mod to rename the thread.

CommonShore fucked around with this message at 16:16 on Jul 23, 2021

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Kestral
Nov 24, 2000

Forum Veteran

Two of my most anticipated events, together in one thread! Didn't realize judo was starting so early, thanks for the reminder. Also, seconding the "who would we be looking out for?" question.

I ended up in a conversation with a friend today about greco and it reminded me of just how little I know about its rules and techniques. If anyone knows of a good primer video on that subject, I'd love to see it.

TheKingslayer
Sep 3, 2008

There are no men like me. There's only me.





Kestral posted:

Two of my most anticipated events, together in one thread! Didn't realize judo was starting so early, thanks for the reminder. Also, seconding the "who would we be looking out for?" question.

I ended up in a conversation with a friend today about greco and it reminded me of just how little I know about its rules and techniques. If anyone knows of a good primer video on that subject, I'd love to see it.

This video is pretty short and sweet on the rules
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vpKX9NvZjZo

Pennywise the Frown
May 10, 2010



Upset Trowel

I'd love to see this. I'm a fan of combat sports. I'll try to find a place to watch it live unless anyone else knows where.

The Kins
Oct 2, 2004


Sector Effector


Don't forget, Karate's also on this year for more combat sport stuff. US-centric schedule from the NBC site:

quote:

8/4, 9 p.m. ET: Women's Kata & Men's 67kg Kumite: Elimination Round
8/5, 4 a.m. ET: Women's Kata; Women's 55kg & Men's 67kg Kumite: Semis/Final
8/5, 9 p.m. ET: Men's Kata & Women's 61kg Kumite: Elimination Round
8/6, 4 a.m. ET: Men's Kata; Women's 61kg & Men's 75kg Kumite: Semis/Final
8/7, 1 a.m. ET: Women's 61+kg & Men's 75+kg Kumite: All Rounds

02-6611-0142-1
Sep 30, 2004



Any divisions or individuals youíre excited about this year in the judo?

gay for gacha
Dec 22, 2006



gently caress yeah greco roman lets gooo

CommonShore
Jun 6, 2014

A true renaissance man




02-6611-0142-1 posted:

Any divisions or individuals you’re excited about this year in the judo?

You know the limbo of covid has led me to not follow the lead-up. There is a Canadian girl in -57 who my people are cheering for, and that's what I know.

Divisionally, each has its own flavour. The small men tend to be like gymnasts with insane speed and proportional strength and they give a ton of fireworks. The big men are beefy boys.

I'll do a bit of research into this year's brackets and quote it into the op. If anyone beats me to it, I'll quote them in instead.

e. also as someone just pointed out to me in discord, the time zones are gently caress for me on this one, too. I'm probably just going to watch what's on when it's on (for me, on the CBC streaming website, idk if that's geo locked. Often the judo websites - judo.ca or the IJF's own site have streams too.)

CommonShore fucked around with this message at 13:34 on Jul 23, 2021

CommonShore
Jun 6, 2014

A true renaissance man




The Kins posted:

Don't forget, Karate's also on this year for more combat sport stuff. US-centric schedule from the NBC site:

Yes - and TKD too, right? I thought about doing a general combat sports thread with boxing too, but I decided not to overstep. As someone who mostly consumes via highlights and watching what's on when I sit down, I'd be all for having Karate, Boxing, and TKD chat in here for one megathread, but I'll leave that to the room.

Thoguh
Nov 8, 2002



College Slice

Thank you for half assing an OP before I quarter assed an OP.

Thoguh
Nov 8, 2002



College Slice

02-6611-0142-1 posted:

Any divisions or individuals youíre excited about this year in the judo?

Teddy Riner trying to win another Gold is the big one that comes to mind for me. The US team this year is entirely people that were just happy to qualify and might not win a single match, our -52kg woman is ranked 20th and she's the only one that maybe could possibly have a good tournament combined with a lucky draw and make it to a bronze medal match.

Thoguh fucked around with this message at 13:51 on Jul 23, 2021

CommonShore
Jun 6, 2014

A true renaissance man




CommonShore posted:


WHO TO WATCH (under construction)
Team Japan Japan as a nation is extremely defensive and protective of Judo, and it maintains a lot of control over the international ruleset, frequently leading to grumbling and complaints about problems in said rules. One of our jokes inside the sport is "do you think they'll do new rules this year?" "We'll see how Japan does at the Olympics" (the joke being that if Japan underperforms, we get new rules). But this is Tokyo 20201: there has been talk for several cycles of Japan trying to develop a super team to defend the home turf, so the stakes are higher than usual. there are two faces I'm familiar with on their team. First, Ono Shohei (-73 kg), who has been around for a while and is fun to watch and extremely good. The middle weight classes tend to be the most exciting, in my opinion, and he's exciting even among them. Aaron Wolf (-100 kg) has an interesting story - he's mixed-race and has faced a lot of racism and opposition on his way to the top of Japanese Judo. He has definitely proven himself. I saw a couple documentary spots on him and he seems to have a chip on his shoulder, for good reason. He has extremely good judo, and I'm happy for him that he's getting this distinguished opportunity. A Reuter's article identifes the Abe siblings in m-66kg and w-52kg as notable, too.

Big Teddy Riner :france: is back, going for his 3rd consecutive olympic gold. He's one of the greatest heavyweights of all time, standing a towering 6'8" or something silly. He's trying to tie the all-time gold medal record at +100kg. The drama is that he lost one of the world championships - i think 2019? (Covid has hosed my sense of time up) - in the interim, by a very narrow margin.

Daria Bilodid (Ukr) w-48kg seems to be generating some excitement too, because she's young and pretty. Young, as in the youngest person ever to win a world championship.

Jessica Klimkait :canada: -57kg Had some drama coming in. Canada's first judo world champion was Japanese-born Christina Deguchi, who switched to team Canada because of some of the above drama "Dream Team" reasons. This spring, Jessica Klimkait beat Deguchi at a major tournament to clinch the spot instead. Everyone I know inside Canadian Judo is mad hype for Klimkait.

The US team must be in a rebuilding phase then, as in 2016 they took a few medals, including Kayla Harrisson, who scooped up her second consecutive gold.

Apparently there is also the mixed team format, which is new to the Olympics but builds on the version well-established in the Japanese college judo system. Info on it here:

https://olympics.com/tokyo-2020/en/news/what-is-the-new-judo-mixed-team-event

TL;DR: each team has 3 men and 3 women of specific weight classes. Athletes go head-to-head with their equivalent on the other team. Results generate team points, and teams advance together.



CommonShore fucked around with this message at 14:23 on Jul 23, 2021

CommonShore
Jun 6, 2014

A true renaissance man




Thoguh posted:

Thank you for half assing an OP before I quarter assed an OP.

Happy to have you here with us, Thoguh! If you have any info that you'd like to get in as we go, we'll be happy to have it.

Thoguh
Nov 8, 2002



College Slice

Watch Judo because there will be a lot of this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zy7bRVk5hP0#t=99s
Watch wrestling because there will be a lot of this

https://twitter.com/CatchWrestling/status/1417816630034190340

GRECOROMANGRABASS
May 14, 2020


You haven't wrestled until you've had your oil aggressively checked by an Olympic level athlete

Just Winging It
Jan 19, 2012

The buck stops at my ass


Daria Bilodid has genuine judo chops, you don't become back-to-back world champion without them, but the excitement has more to do with the fact that she's a pretty young white girl than her performance on the tatami though I feel. It's going to be interesting to see how the Japanese "Dream Team" copes with the pressure, anything less than gold will be a failure.

Pennywise the Frown
May 10, 2010



Upset Trowel

Apparently judo starts tonight at 9pm CDT, about 30 minutes. I'm going to try watching it on NBC.

CommonShore
Jun 6, 2014

A true renaissance man




If anyone figures out how to get full feeds of judo online, even with VPNs and poo poo, please post and put :siren: around it. In 2016 CBC had a continuous feed of all mats and this year it's only select matches.

BlindSite
Feb 8, 2009

RIP Blindsite
He Never Scored


CommonShore posted:

If anyone figures out how to get full feeds of judo online, even with VPNs and poo poo, please post and put :siren: around it. In 2016 CBC had a continuous feed of all mats and this year it's only select matches.

:siren: :siren: VPN to australia, free sign up to 7plus.com.au you'll need a postcode - use 4305 and an email. Live events tab has judo RN :siren: :siren:

yes both the mens and womens

Kestral
Nov 24, 2000

Forum Veteran

I'd forgotten how much of judo resembles trying to get a recalcitrant 4 year old to get up off the floor :lol:

As a neophyte I'm finding the commentary on the women's 48kg stream absolutely vital to get the context I crave, but also, man, they are aggro as hell.

Proteus Jones
Feb 28, 2013





Kestral posted:

As a neophyte I'm finding the commentary on the women's 48kg stream absolutely vital to get the context I crave, but also, man, they are aggro as hell.

Man you ain't kidding. I just saw someone try to hold on in a strangle hold finally tap out. Right before that I saw a woman almost get her arm pulled out of her socket.

Kestral
Nov 24, 2000

Forum Veteran

Proteus Jones posted:

Man you ain't kidding. I just saw someone try to hold on in a strangle hold finally tap out. Right before that I saw a woman almost get her arm pulled out of her socket.

Right? This is brutal, these folks are not here to play.

Edit: And now a win with a fraction of a second to go, Women's 48kg is great folks, watch this one on replay if you're not catching it live.

Kestral fucked around with this message at 03:30 on Jul 24, 2021

CommonShore
Jun 6, 2014

A true renaissance man




BlindSite posted:

:siren: :siren: VPN to australia, free sign up to 7plus.com.au you'll need a postcode - use 4305 and an email. Live events tab has judo RN :siren: :siren:

yes both the mens and womens

cool thanks! I'll use that as my backup if I cant find another source.

CommonShore
Jun 6, 2014

A true renaissance man




It seems that the IJF website broadcasts them for free, but I can't actually get a video going. But, I'm also not sure that there are fights right now.

Proteus Jones
Feb 28, 2013





Kestral posted:

Right? This is brutal, these folks are not here to play.

Edit: And now a win with a fraction of a second to go, Women's 48kg is great folks, watch this one on replay if you're not catching it live.

If this is any indication, Judo this year is going to be fantastic to watch.

At this point I'm expecting the m-100kg to be like two sea lion bulls just crashing into each other.

Kestral
Nov 24, 2000

Forum Veteran

I dearly want to see someone do that little "turtle up on the floor" move, and then get lifted clean up off the ground and suplexed. I'm not sure that would be legal or point-scoring, but it would be intensely satisfying to watch.

Lid
Feb 18, 2005

And the mercy seat is awaiting,
And I think my head is burning,
And in a way I'm yearning,
To be done with all this measuring of proof.
An eye for an eye
And a tooth for a tooth,
And anyway I told the truth,
And I'm not afraid to die.


CommonShore posted:

But greco is often more confusing than freestyle, because once in a while you'll have that same gigantic Russian get told that he doesn't get the gold medal this time because his opponent is too fat, and so the fat man gets the gold instead.

look at this Rulon Gardner slander

Rick
Feb 23, 2004
And now the whole nation - pulpit and all - will take up the war-cry, and shout itself hoarse, and mob any honest man who ventures to open his mouth; and presently such mouths will cease to open.

Judo is cool.

Pennywise the Frown
May 10, 2010



Upset Trowel

Rick posted:

Judo is cool.

:hmmyes:

Makes me want to get back into BJJ since there are no judo places around here.

CommonShore
Jun 6, 2014

A true renaissance man




The aussie workaround didn't work for me. I'm watching the KOR-BRA match which I got from some Japanese site via VPN and this has been good and tense.

the little guys/girls are often the most exciting.

Proteus Jones
Feb 28, 2013





CommonShore posted:

The aussie workaround didn't work for me. I'm watching the KOR-BRA match which I got from some Japanese site via VPN and this has been good and tense.

the little guys/girls are often the most exciting.

I'm pretty much glued to the women's matches. As mentioned above, they are super aggro today and it rules.

CommonShore
Jun 6, 2014

A true renaissance man




Proteus Jones posted:

I'm pretty much glued to the women's matches. As mentioned above, they are super aggro today and it rules.

yeah I'm just taking what I can get. It just switched to the women's mat at the feed I'm on. Bilodid had a nice win there. Good active defensive judo, and she's quick to get the triangle pin/turnover. Very nice to watch.

BlindSite
Feb 8, 2009

RIP Blindsite
He Never Scored


CommonShore posted:

The aussie workaround didn't work for me. I'm watching the KOR-BRA match which I got from some Japanese site via VPN and this has been good and tense.

the little guys/girls are often the most exciting.

Sorry mate, thought it would be an easy work around.

Rick
Feb 23, 2004
And now the whole nation - pulpit and all - will take up the war-cry, and shout itself hoarse, and mob any honest man who ventures to open his mouth; and presently such mouths will cease to open.

Guess you canít throw an elbow into the back.

Proteus Jones
Feb 28, 2013





Rick posted:

Guess you canít throw an elbow into the back.

At first I thought he was smacking the mat in frustration, but the angle was wrong. He didn't even try to slip in all sneaky like, he just hauled off into his back.

smarxist
Jul 26, 2018

correct politics haver... weed...





https://stream.nbcolympics.com/judo-day-1-medal-rounds-womens-48kg-mens-60kg

Judo looks loving exhausting

Rick
Feb 23, 2004
And now the whole nation - pulpit and all - will take up the war-cry, and shout itself hoarse, and mob any honest man who ventures to open his mouth; and presently such mouths will cease to open.

Yíall arenít kidding these womanís matches are way faster paced than the judo matches I am used to (which is admittedly a small sample size).

Pennywise the Frown
May 10, 2010



Upset Trowel

I don't watch judo much at all and know none of the rules but I wish they'd give them more time to fight on the ground. It seems like if there is a failed throw they just tuck in defensively and give up immediately. It'd be nice to give them at least 15 seconds to get a submission.

Jack B Nimble
Dec 25, 2007




Soiled Meat

Yeah, it really does illustrate just how much the rules can change the sport even if the moves and principles between judo and Jiujitsu are the same.

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Pennywise the Frown
May 10, 2010



Upset Trowel

Speaking of rules changing the sport, I'm watching TKD live right now and man... this sucks. They're just dancing around with very little technique and can only appear to kick the chest or head with their feet and nothing else. You get penalized for punching. I just saw someone take a penalty for a leg kick. So everyone just does an Irish dance and does lead leg kicks almost exclusively.

I was in TKD for 3 years and was getting close to my blackbelt and when I started MMA (kickboxing/bjj) I couldn't believe how LITTLE I knew of actual fighting. If I were have to gotten in a fight knowing as much TKD as I did I would've gotten my rear end kicked.

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