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Tulip
Jun 3, 2008

yeah thats pretty good


It's not about the results, it's about sending a message

cracks knuckles but in a hippie way

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Cythereal
Nov 8, 2009

I love the potoo,
and the potoo loves you.
One other thing - folks in the discord have heard me mention this, but it's a huge relief to be LPing a game I'm actually enthusiastic about again. :) STO was such a slog by the end.

I hope non-Anno vets are able to follow along, these games are... a lot, and I wanted to show how they work. I had to watch a bunch of videos myself to understand how it all worked.


Torrannor posted:

Isn't it kinda counterproductive to send that ship full of pollutants straight to the bottom of the ocean? :thunk:

Oh, I should probably make an extra note of this: oil is a resource in this game, and if you blow up an oil rig or sink a ship carrying oil, it does indeed cause a huge environmental disaster. And you will see this a lot if you have two particular NPCs on the map. Leon Moreau is an Eden Initiative NPC who's a fully fledged ecoterrorist and will relentlessly attack anyone with a significant negative ecobalance. Vadim Soklow is a Global Trust oil baron who loves to pollute to high heaven, focusing on oil production.

Leon, uh, tends to cause constant oil spills to ravage the map if he's on a map with Vadim, as a result of him constantly sinking Vadim's oil tankers and blowing up his rigs and refineries.

NewMars
Mar 10, 2013

Alkydere posted:

What do you mean no one likes Wind Turbines, Cyth? They're great!

Wait...I'm getting an update...apparently it's offshore wind turbines I like, especially when mixed with some juicy upgrades.

Also, about the eco-balance stuff, that Weather Control Station may seem weak sauce for the amount of land it takes up but it stacks with other eco-balance buildings you unlock later. Also it doesn't take up a valuable river or mine slot to use.

Also Tycoon eco-balance buildings are more powerful on a per-point basis...but there's a catch! Tycoon eco-balance buildings can only build an island up to neutral while Eco ones can bring it up to Magical Disneyland levels. Also the order you place the buildings in is important: so when you get those Tycoons unlocked you actually want to rip apart all your Eco ecobalance buildings, place down your Tycoon ones to counteract your industries or any ancient nuclear power plants on the island, THEN slap down your shiny Eco ones to get the bonus.
Spoiled because I don't want to go too into stuff before Cythereal gets there.

As far as I remember Basalt Granules aren't used for anything, and in fact later on there's an alternate way to generate Cinder Blocks Building Modules that's infinite (Basalt is technically a limited resource, though mineral resources are rather cheap to refresh). Kind of sad considering to emphasize the difference between factions at the start the devs gave the Tycoons a separate Basalt mine (a miniature borehole compared to the central building +2 rock-harvesting "fields" the ecos get).

There's no resource-substitution for alternate recipes in 2070 (Anno 5), you can't just shove the gravel into another product chain. The devs only started experimenting with that in one of the DLCs for 2205 (Anno 6) but then they went hog wild with it in 1800 (Anno 7).


Is that true? The wiki says that tycoon ecobalance buildings always take precedence in having their effects applied. So there's no reason to rip up your eco buildings before placing them.

kw0134
Apr 19, 2003

I buy feet pics🍆

Cythereal posted:

Leon, uh, tends to cause constant oil spills to ravage the map if he's on a map with Vadim, as a result of him constantly sinking Vadim's oil tankers and blowing up his rigs and refineries.
New meaning to the thread title when Carcosa is backlit by the countless raging oil fires on the sea

Cythereal
Nov 8, 2009

I love the potoo,
and the potoo loves you.

kw0134 posted:

New meaning to the thread title when Carcosa is backlit by the countless raging oil fires on the sea

Sorry to disappoint you. :v:



There's only one NPC in this session we haven't met yet, because we currently lack the means to visit him.

AtomikKrab
Jul 17, 2010

Keep on GOP rolling rolling rolling rolling.

My spouse was spying on me watching the LP, she looked up the series and wants to buy 2070 when she has the money.

Cythereal
Nov 8, 2009

I love the potoo,
and the potoo loves you.

AtomikKrab posted:

My spouse was spying on me watching the LP, she looked up the series and wants to buy 2070 when she has the money.

You have my deepest condolences. :v: I picked up the game last year during a huge Steam sale on city builders for less than ten bucks.

The next update is going to be technically shorter, but that's because there's a bunch of new stuff to cover, including a vital but not terribly intuitive mechanic.

AtomikKrab
Jul 17, 2010

Keep on GOP rolling rolling rolling rolling.

Cythereal posted:

You have my deepest condolences. :v: I picked up the game last year during a huge Steam sale on city builders for less than ten bucks.

The next update is going to be technically shorter, but that's because there's a bunch of new stuff to cover, including a vital but not terribly intuitive mechanic.

She' gonna make me play it as well.

Torrannor
Apr 27, 2013

---FAGNER---
TEAM-MATE

AtomikKrab posted:

She' gonna make me play it as well.

Congrats? Anno games are usually fun to play, there are worse fates.

Alkydere
Jun 7, 2010
Capitol: A building or complex of buildings in which any legislature meets.
Capital: A city designated as a legislative seat by the government or some other authority, often the city in which the government is located; otherwise the most important city within a country or a subdivision of it.



AtomikKrab posted:

She' gonna make me play it as well.

Sweet. Anno 2070 is a fully co-operative city-builder. As in you two can both control the same corporate conglomerate.

Cythereal
Nov 8, 2009

I love the potoo,
and the potoo loves you.

Alkydere posted:

Sweet. Anno 2070 is a fully co-operative city-builder. As in you two can both control the same corporate conglomerate.

Yup. I'd hoped to show this off, but none of my friends nor anyone in the discord I inherited from the STO LP have the game. I might try to show it off later in a bonus update. You can indeed have multiple people building and working together in the same sector in this game.

Poil
Mar 17, 2007

I've had a lot of fun playing Anno 1404 multiplayer with a friend. We used to play our separate cities, helping each other out while ganging up on the one or two AI's we added. One time my friend bought a small island out from under one AI and demolished everything to build himself a large palace. We also learned that while the AI was definitely cheating with infinite funds it wasn't cheating itself resources it wasn't producing. After we bought up all of their islands capable of producing spice, and waiting for their stores to run dry, their town degraded down to the level requiring it before upgrading.

Didn't really get into 2070 however. I tried it but cities are so empty and devoid of life compared to 1404 and the campaign was a horrible grind and I gave up on the mission teaching you about eco balance. The island you start on has several leaking nuclear things utterly tanking your balance and just breaking even was just too tidious. Didn't help that the "story" wasn't very good but predictable, even by Anno standards.

Cythereal
Nov 8, 2009

I love the potoo,
and the potoo loves you.
The next update has been recorded. It's going to be a bunch of screenshots to cover not actually much development, but there's a very important mechanic I want to cover in detail for new and prospective players.

Unfortunately, I'm expanding faster than I normally would on my own for the sake of a more enjoyable LP, so apologies in advance if you notice my income being super low and even briefly dipping down into the red. There may be a few mini-updates that are just "I built more houses, more production chains for needs, more wind turbines, etc" but I want to stay detailed for every new building and production chain I do.

Magni
Apr 29, 2009
My personal approach to wind turbines being terrible was having a long, easy sandbox session where I researched upgrade sets for all the various power production buildings and then filled up my Arks storage with them to switch out as needed. Power production are the most universally useful ark upgrades in general IMO, with how many of those buildings you tend to create.

Also, IMO you should have at least invited Tilda. And/or Hector, he's not that big of a hassle on easy. Hell, having both is funny because especially later on Tilda is actually going to kick his rear end. :allears:

Magni fucked around with this message at 18:45 on Aug 5, 2021

Cythereal
Nov 8, 2009

I love the potoo,
and the potoo loves you.
Island Hopping



We start today with construction of a basic Freight Ship. It's a very basic design, slow and fragile, but it's cheap and sufficient to our needs. Also, note the blue triangle with a ! mark above our second fishery. This means that storage on Carcosa for fish is at capacity and the second fishery is going into idle mode. Two fisheries are overproducing for Carcosa's needs, which is a good problem to have. I simply leave it like this, the second fishery will find work as the population expands.



Unlike buildings, ships aren't constructed instantly, so I have some time to attend to other matters. For one thing, Carcosa has grown large enough to need a second tea plantation. As I mentioned before, fields don't need to be adjacent to a farm, the plantation here will harvest tea from the other side of the road just fine.



I also work to expand the town of Carcosa itself during this time, building new Scruffy houses and promoting them to Billy Bobs.



And there's our freight ship, which came out of the shipyard with the name Aleph. Freight ships are the most basic type of cargo ship, and can carry up to 120 tons of cargo divided into three bays. Each bay can only hold one type of good, so the Aleph can carry at most three different goods.



I load the Aleph up with a cargo of building modules, tools, and wood. Everything an Eden Initiative settlement needs. But where to go? We need an island with fertility for vegetables, of course. But, since I know what Billy Bob will need in the future, there's a few other things I'm looking for. Our first expansion island should have a river and multiple mining slots. Primarily we'll need copper, but that's pretty much everywhere.




Southwest of Carcosa, we have a winner. Just look at that river! And this island has fertilities not only for vegetables, but wheat! This island is a terrific find for a growing Eden Initiative settlement! We'll get to why wheat is important with the next tier of citizens after Billy Bob, but take my word for it that the Ecos need wheat something fierce. I ship out the Aleph to this island.




While the Aleph makes its journey, Yana pops up with another quest, demanding I stop trading with Thorne in return for the Initiative's favor. Since I don't have the licenses to buy any items from Thorne and nothing he sells for credits is anything we need, I accept her demand.



Also during this time, EVE informs me that Carcosa has crossed the population threshold where a potentially serious fire has become a statistical certainty. Unless you have serious connections in SAAT, there's nothing you can do to prevent this. What you can do is build fire stations to provide emergency services and put out any fires that occur.



The radius around fire stations shows how far their response teams can reach.



Two fire stations are enough to cover Carcosa. For the moment, Carcosan refugees have nothing to fear from any fire outbreaks.



To the southwest, the Aleph has arrived at its destination. Remember how settlement on Carcosa started with a warehouse? It works the same way with other islands. Approach an island with a cargo of building modules and tools, and a button pops up on the ship's command panel to build a warehouse.



As I hope you're getting used to, building a warehouse projects an area around the warehouse where you can build. Sadly, I can't quite get both mining sites in the radius, nor can I reach the river. I'll make do.



The warehouse goes down on what I have deemed for the moment to be Site One. Now for what we came here for, vegetables. Enthralling, I know.



Farmhouses have no less than five fields, and they're very awkwardly shaped. There *are* ways and schematics to make extremely efficient use of space for facilities like this, but for the moment going to that extreme would be overkill so I settle for a sloppier approach.



Two farmhouses supply a single production chain for health food.



Back on Carcosa, it's time to complete the other half of the health food equation, rice and the health food factory itself.



The health food factory is the larger building across the road from the iron smelter. The rice farm is next door with its fields. So, we have the vegetables. We have the rice. We have the factory. How do we get them all together? It's time to establish our first trade route.



Returning to the general command interface, we now need the circling arrows icon, third from the right. This is known as the strategic map.



Here you can see a complete map of this part of the Tierra del Fuego. You can see the island we've settled, our neighbors and their arks, Trenchcoat's smuggling ship, and a very strange fellow in between Carcosa and Site One whom we can't currently interact with in any meaningful way. This is also the window where you can establish trade routes. Start with the 'New Trading Route' button in the upper right.



I start by naming the trade route 'Carcosa Supply.' I'll probably give it a more descriptive name once there are more trade routes to keep track of.



In the next pane down, I click 'Add Station.' Mousing over Site One shows a breakdown of the island's resources and conditions. I select Site One.



From here, I click the green button for Load.



This brings up Site One's warehouse window. Here I can select what goods I want to be loaded onto the ship from Site One. I click vegetables.



Like so. You can edit the number, but by default this is telling the trade route to load up to 150 units of vegetables from Site One (in practice, this is going to mean 'all available vegetables). Now I click 'Add Station' again and select Carcosa.



Now I click the red button for Offload.



There. You can now see that this trade route is configured to load up to 150 units of vegetables from Site One and unload up to 150 units of vegetables to Carcosa. There's just one more thing to do.



At the bottom pane, I click 'Add Ship' and select the Aleph.



And that's the trade route established! The dual arrows icon above the Aleph shows that the ship is going into automatic load/unload procedures at Site One. From here on out, once all the farms and factories involved spin up, Carcosa will have health food to go around! Dedicating one ship just to hauling vegetables like this no doubt seems inefficient in the meantime. It is. But, back on Carcosa there are enough Billy Bobs to start on his lifestyle need.



We live in an age where communicators are considered a consumable good just like food. Welcome to the future, everyone. To make communicators, we start with copper and sand. One copper mine, and one sand extractor.



There's the copper mine.



The sand extractor, however, requires a river slot. River slots are limited in availability, just like mountain slots, and I've positioned the Site One settlement close. You can see the embankments on the river marking the suitable sites.



A depot brings the river, and the northerly mountain site, into operational range.



While scheduling passenger ferries between islands is beneath your concern - no need to build houses on production islands or arrange transportation for the workforce - new islands do have their own power grids to attend to.



Oh, what a world. Applying high technology to fundamentally low-tech approaches. Sand extractors filter out silica from rivers in a perfectly environmentally friendly way.




At this point Site One runs out of tools and I send the Arturo on a supply run. I'll probably be doing this as needed rather than setting up tool production on Site One or creating a permanent trade route to ship tools to Site One.



I do, however, establish some building module production on Site One.



As everyone knows, sand and copper ore are all you need to make microchips.



One copper mine and one sand extractor can supply two chip factories. Do take note here that this isn't the last time we'll see a need for microchips. There are other ways to source them, but for our needs today this will do.



And each chip factory can supply one electronics factory, churning out the communicators Billy Bob and his hat crave. Two electronics factories are overkill for the moment, but I consider this future proofing.



Fortunately, I already set up the Carcosa Supply trade route loading goods at Site One and offloading at Carcosa.



I can add the instructions to additionally load communicators at Site One and offload them at Carcosa. The Aleph has its three cargo holds, so it can transport these as long as they're not both in excess of forty units.



Like so. Trade routes are absolutely vital to any settlement for all that they're somewhat unintuitive to set up, and I hope this step by step breakdown was helpful!



Back in Carcosa, the dip back into negative ecobalance offends me so I do something about it, even at the cost of maximum efficiency.




And to round things out for the day, I upgrade the warehouse at Carcosa. Warehouses and depots can be upgraded by two tiers. The first upgrade simply expands the facility's storage capacity and provides an extra cargo lifter for hauling goods around. That will do for today.



Carcosa, population 718.



Site One, no permanent residents.


Taking suggestions for the name of Site One and the freight ship Aleph.

Siegkrow
Oct 11, 2013

Arguing about Lore for 5 years and counting



Poil posted:

I've had a lot of fun playing Anno 1404 multiplayer with a friend. We used to play our separate cities, helping each other out while ganging up on the one or two AI's we added. One time my friend bought a small island out from under one AI and demolished everything to build himself a large palace. We also learned that while the AI was definitely cheating with infinite funds it wasn't cheating itself resources it wasn't producing. After we bought up all of their islands capable of producing spice, and waiting for their stores to run dry, their town degraded down to the level requiring it before upgrading.

Didn't really get into 2070 however. I tried it but cities are so empty and devoid of life compared to 1404 and the campaign was a horrible grind and I gave up on the mission teaching you about eco balance. The island you start on has several leaking nuclear things utterly tanking your balance and just breaking even was just too tidious. Didn't help that the "story" wasn't very good but predictable, even by Anno standards.

You inherited?

PurpleXVI
Oct 30, 2011

Spewing insults, pissing off all your neighbors, betraying your allies, backing out of treaties and accords, and generally screwing over the global environment?
ALL PART OF MY BRILLIANT STRATEGY!
It feels like if you aren't well-experienced, it's perfectly possible to build yourself into a corner. Is that just me or is the game that cruel?

Cythereal
Nov 8, 2009

I love the potoo,
and the potoo loves you.

PurpleXVI posted:

It feels like if you aren't well-experienced, it's perfectly possible to build yourself into a corner. Is that just me or is the game that cruel?

What do you mean? If you're talking about physical building space, you can always build more depots to expand your construction range. I have a whole lot of space left on Carcosa, I just haven't been making use of it yet.

PurpleXVI
Oct 30, 2011

Spewing insults, pissing off all your neighbors, betraying your allies, backing out of treaties and accords, and generally screwing over the global environment?
ALL PART OF MY BRILLIANT STRATEGY!
I mean more with the, say, limited river spots. That you might end up using those for the wrong industries and have a hard time recovering those wasted resources.

Cythereal
Nov 8, 2009

I love the potoo,
and the potoo loves you.

PurpleXVI posted:

I mean more with the, say, limited river spots. That you might end up using those for the wrong industries and have a hard time recovering those wasted resources.

Not really. River slots in particular are only used for a handful of buildings, and the way that buildings only unlock when you unlock the production chain involving them, and just stop producing when you're capped on storage for resources, means there's no danger of 'wasting' resources.

If I were to, say, cap my storage capacity on both Carcosa and Site One for communicators, the electronics factories would automatically pause production until there's room. The chip factories would still produce, until storage for microchips is capped at which point they'd pause until there's room, and so on and so forth.

Anno 2070 is next to impossible to truly fail state. The only scenario I can think of is somehow exhausting all your available mineral resources before you gain the ability to replenish an island's mineral reserves (this is a thing you can do). It's the kind of situation you'd pretty much have to be actively trying to get yourself into. Like with river slots, there's no way in hell I'd use up every single river slot on this map just harvesting sand. I'd be pressed to use up every river slot just on this one island.

Alkydere
Jun 7, 2010
Capitol: A building or complex of buildings in which any legislature meets.
Capital: A city designated as a legislative seat by the government or some other authority, often the city in which the government is located; otherwise the most important city within a country or a subdivision of it.



I mean, maybe somehow running out of tools before you get tool production online (which requires tools to upgrade enough houses to level 2 and more tools to build) but you have So. Many. Sources. of tools. Nearly every neutral NPC will sell them, and you can order them from your ark?

Honestly the only real way to lose the game would be to go bankrupt which requires some doing outside of conflict between players/AIs.

Klaus88
Jan 23, 2011

Violence has its own economy, therefore be thoughtful and precise in your investment
Somehow, Billy Bob's lifestyle needs feels almost as environmentally unfriendly then his counter parts.

There's a very weird undertone with the Eden Initiative that's like "They merely wish to LOOK like they care about the environment, and they actually don't care at all."

I can't decide if its deliberate.

Cythereal
Nov 8, 2009

I love the potoo,
and the potoo loves you.

Klaus88 posted:

Somehow, Billy Bob's lifestyle needs feels almost as environmentally unfriendly then his counter parts.

There's a very weird undertone with the Eden Initiative that's like "They merely wish to LOOK like they care about the environment, and they actually don't care at all."

I can't decide if its deliberate.

I will have Words about this game's approach to environmentalism when I unlock the Tycoons. Specifically how this game worships at the feet of coal power and has a raging hate-on for nuclear power (and geothermal, and hydroelectric, and wind, and solar, though with research you can mitigate some of the problems with those, but the game seriously goddamn hates nuclear power).

Lest anyone worries I'm an LP machine, besides just enjoying Anno 2070 a ton in a few days I'm going to have a new project occupying my free time for a couple weeks that may leave updates sparse for a while.

SIGSEGV
Nov 4, 2010


The reason might be that the devs are Germans, and Germany loving loves coal power.

(Ok, that's a lie, Germany uses a lot of coal power, in particular the dirtiest coal possible, lignite, and for some reason the decision makers of the German state tend to favor coal in indirect, stealthy and one might say underhanded ways. There might be money involved.) (I say as I laugh frenchily, before remembering that our Greens have worked really hard to kill nuclear power here, in particular the projects to recycle spent nuclear fuel into more power and far less toxic and radioactive spent fuel, again, money might be involved.)

thekeeshman
Feb 21, 2007

SIGSEGV posted:

The reason might be that the devs are Germans, and Germany loving loves coal power.

(Ok, that's a lie, Germany uses a lot of coal power, in particular the dirtiest coal possible, lignite, and for some reason the decision makers of the German state tend to favor coal in indirect, stealthy and one might say underhanded ways. There might be money involved.) (I say as I laugh frenchily, before remembering that our Greens have worked really hard to kill nuclear power here, in particular the projects to recycle spent nuclear fuel into more power and far less toxic and radioactive spent fuel, again, money might be involved.)

The fact that Germany shut down its nuke plants after Fukushima is proof that whatever else is going on, there's a lot of blind hatred for nuke plants floating around. Did they think there was going to be a tsunami in the middle of Germany? Whether we should build new nuke plants can be a big complicated discussion, but once they're built there's absolutely no reason not to run them to the end of their safe lifetime.

As someone who works in sustainability the anti-nuke stance of some supposed environmentalists drives me completely nuts.

Alkydere
Jun 7, 2010
Capitol: A building or complex of buildings in which any legislature meets.
Capital: A city designated as a legislative seat by the government or some other authority, often the city in which the government is located; otherwise the most important city within a country or a subdivision of it.



thekeeshman posted:

The fact that Germany shut down its nuke plants after Fukushima is proof that whatever else is going on, there's a lot of blind hatred for nuke plants floating around. Did they think there was going to be a tsunami in the middle of Germany? Whether we should build new nuke plants can be a big complicated discussion, but once they're built there's absolutely no reason not to run them to the end of their safe lifetime.

As someone who works in sustainability the anti-nuke stance of some supposed environmentalists drives me completely nuts.

ATOMZ R SCARRY!

The Anno anti-nuke stance continues in 2205 to a rather absurd degree to avoid using nuclear fission to solve a global energy crisis. It's part of why I like 1800 in that it avoids the nuclear question by being at the very introduction of electrical power grids.

In some cases though I do understand it. Ionizing radiation is a quiet, invisible, pervasive killer that by the time you've noticed the effects on a biological level it's too late. It's also one that was introduced to the world in a legitimately horrible way. The true power of the atom was only really revealed to the world at Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and before that you had researchers like Curie dying horribly after playing with radiation (and after that too: the Demon Core hungered for blood...which wasn't helped by the fact that scientists handled it like a toy). Also nuclear plants are expensive which just adds another layer of inertia that needs to be overcome.

Torrannor
Apr 27, 2013

---FAGNER---
TEAM-MATE
I wonder if there really is a way to extract silica from rivers that can be termed "environmentally friendly". Aren't you just hoovering up the sand from the river bed? That can't be good for the river, and should in no way be sustainable for very long.

Cythereal
Nov 8, 2009

I love the potoo,
and the potoo loves you.

Torrannor posted:

I wonder if there really is a way to extract silica from rivers that can be termed "environmentally friendly". Aren't you just hoovering up the sand from the river bed? That can't be good for the river, and should in no way be sustainable for very long.

My impression is that it's supposed to be filtering sand from the flowing river. Which would also probably not be good for the river, or produce silica in useful amounts.

For good or ill, though, I'm playing as the Ecos as my primary faction for the LP, and they need huge amounts of sand for all the microchips their consumer goods require and their second unique building material.

Site One (if no one has a name suggestion I'll probably just take one of the earlier suggestions for what became Carcosa) is probably going to end up a major industrial hub for Carcosa's development. It has lots of river slots, it has large copper and limestone deposits, and it has fertilities for vegetables and wheat. The only things it doesn't have for future Eco needs are fertilities for corn and fruit.

That is something I find mildly amusing about Anno 2070: corn and wheat, despite being staples of the world today, are high-end resources in this game. Corn's not even for eating in this game!

But I'm getting ahead of myself, the next update when I record it is probably going to be more expanding and finishing up Eco Employees.

kw0134
Apr 19, 2003

I buy feet pics🍆

I'm terrible with names, so a place like Site 1 makes sense to me as an uninhabited industrial/farming/resource extraction zone. But I'm boring like that.

TitanG
May 10, 2015

Alkydere posted:

ATOMZ R SCARRY!

The Anno anti-nuke stance continues in 2205 to a rather absurd degree to avoid using nuclear fission to solve a global energy crisis. It's part of why I like 1800 in that it avoids the nuclear question by being at the very introduction of electrical power grids.

In some cases though I do understand it. Ionizing radiation is a quiet, invisible, pervasive killer that by the time you've noticed the effects on a biological level it's too late. It's also one that was introduced to the world in a legitimately horrible way. The true power of the atom was only really revealed to the world at Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and before that you had researchers like Curie dying horribly after playing with radiation (and after that too: the Demon Core hungered for blood...which wasn't helped by the fact that scientists handled it like a toy). Also nuclear plants are expensive which just adds another layer of inertia that needs to be overcome.

Cold war propaganda around nuclear wars took it too far, and Chernobyl didn't really help. In my opinion it's monumentally stupid throwing untold money at low-possibility stuff like hydrogen and not investing in already developed breeder nuclear but what the gently caress do I know.

Torrannor posted:

I wonder if there really is a way to extract silica from rivers that can be termed "environmentally friendly". Aren't you just hoovering up the sand from the river bed? That can't be good for the river, and should in no way be sustainable for very long.

Dredging sand from rivers is pretty much a fully renewable resource and done across the world, the problem is actually getting silica (quartz) sand and not literally anything else like limestone.

Slaan
Mar 16, 2009



ASHERAH DEMANDS I FEAST, I VOTE FOR A FEAST OF FLESH
Massive industrial hub kept away from the view of crunchy granola types in order to date their lust for status-creating electronics and "natural" food?

Sounds like hypocrisy island to me

Torrannor
Apr 27, 2013

---FAGNER---
TEAM-MATE

Slaan posted:

Massive industrial hub kept away from the view of crunchy granola types in order to date their lust for status-creating electronics and "natural" food?

Sounds like hypocrisy island to me

This is really good. But I'd prefer another Spanish influenced name, to match Carcosa. Paraiso for our eco-friendly industrial heartland would be another ironically fitting name.

Seraphic Neoman
Jul 19, 2011


Torrannor posted:

This is really good. But I'd prefer another Spanish influenced name, to match Carcosa. Paraiso for our eco-friendly industrial heartland would be another ironically fitting name.

Yeah let's keep the pattern going

Tulip
Jun 3, 2008

yeah thats pretty good


TitanG posted:

Cold war propaganda around nuclear wars took it too far, and Chernobyl didn't really help. In my opinion it's monumentally stupid throwing untold money at low-possibility stuff like hydrogen and not investing in already developed breeder nuclear but what the gently caress do I know.

Dredging sand from rivers is pretty much a fully renewable resource and done across the world, the problem is actually getting silica (quartz) sand and not literally anything else like limestone.

I did a brief bit of work at a fusion research lab, and it was incredibly bleak. The main conclusion I got from it was that the same obstacles that prevented the US from going heavy on fission reactors will prevent them from going heavy on fusion reactors, assuming they ever become practical: they're not fossil fuel based. Fission was stopped by politics, and those politics have not changed and fusion isn't different enough from fission to be immune to the same political forces.

Alkydere
Jun 7, 2010
Capitol: A building or complex of buildings in which any legislature meets.
Capital: A city designated as a legislative seat by the government or some other authority, often the city in which the government is located; otherwise the most important city within a country or a subdivision of it.



Tulip posted:

I did a brief bit of work at a fusion research lab, and it was incredibly bleak. The main conclusion I got from it was that the same obstacles that prevented the US from going heavy on fission reactors will prevent them from going heavy on fusion reactors, assuming they ever become practical: they're not fossil fuel based. Fission was stopped by politics, and those politics have not changed and fusion isn't different enough from fission to be immune to the same political forces.

It does avoid the "horrible toxic waste" issue.

Of course the "horrible toxic waste" issue would be less of a deal if:
A) We'd researched thorium reactors early on instead of uranium. They're supposed to be a lot safer and don't create nearly as hazardous waste, but thorium doesn't make bombs so any country that wanted to make bombs went full in on uranium research
B) if there was research into reprocessing that spent fuel into more advanced/reusable fuel instead of screaming in horror and shoving it in a bunker. If we could extract the plutonium, californium, americium from spent fuel it would be far safer AND we'd have fresh sources of fuel for more power.

But yeah, as said there's a massive amount of political will aligned against using nuclear power. Especially from the oil industries in America and coal industries in Germany.

xelada
Dec 21, 2012

Alkydere posted:

It does avoid the "horrible toxic waste" issue.
Fossil fuel power plants also produce horrible toxic waste, but because it tends to thrown into the air instead of as spent fuel rods it isn't as obvious, despite being way worse; to the point that you will get more harmful radiation from living near a coal plant than a nuclear fission plant.

Alkydere
Jun 7, 2010
Capitol: A building or complex of buildings in which any legislature meets.
Capital: A city designated as a legislative seat by the government or some other authority, often the city in which the government is located; otherwise the most important city within a country or a subdivision of it.



xelada posted:

Fossil fuel power plants also produce horrible toxic waste, but because it tends to thrown into the air instead of as spent fuel rods it isn't as obvious, despite being way worse; to the point that you will get more harmful radiation from living near a coal plant than a nuclear fission plant.

I'm talking about fusion power avoiding the "horrible toxic waste", apologies if I wasn't clear.

It's just carbon combustion based power is more or less grandfathered into our culture's threat analysis so it doesn't have the "OH GOD WHY!?" that radioactive waste does...despite being oh so very horrible. As you said, the surroundings of coal plants are often more radioactive than the surroundings of nuclear plants.

OutofSight
May 4, 2017

Alkydere posted:

It does avoid the "horrible toxic waste" issue.

Of course the "horrible toxic waste" issue would be less of a deal if:
A) We'd researched thorium reactors early on instead of uranium. They're supposed to be a lot safer and don't create nearly as hazardous waste, but thorium doesn't make bombs so any country that wanted to make bombs went full in on uranium research
B) if there was research into reprocessing that spent fuel into more advanced/reusable fuel instead of screaming in horror and shoving it in a bunker. If we could extract the plutonium, californium, americium from spent fuel it would be far safer AND we'd have fresh sources of fuel for more power.

But yeah, as said there's a massive amount of political will aligned against using nuclear power. Especially from the oil industries in America and coal industries in Germany.

Nah. I don't believe that "but advancing technology will save us and improve lives for the better!" dogma.

So long as most the private sector memes "BUT THE PROFITS!", i don't want to see nuclear power in private sector. Rather build a million coal plants/ wind turbines/ solar panels. Those don't go nuclear meltdown or someone tries to sink nuclear waste in the nearest ocean to cut costs. Now those idiots can't even stop their electric car batteries from blowing up.

Blame that history taught us that the individuals involved are just not responsible when nuclear fission is involved.

TitanG
May 10, 2015

OutofSight posted:

Nah. I don't believe that "but advancing technology will save us and improve lives for the better!" dogma.

So long as most the private sector memes "BUT THE PROFITS!", i don't want to see nuclear power in private sector. Rather build a million coal plants/ wind turbines/ solar panels. Those don't go nuclear meltdown or someone tries to sink nuclear waste in the nearest ocean to cut costs. Now those idiots can't even stop their electric car batteries from blowing up.

Blame that history taught us that the individuals involved are just not responsible when nuclear fission is involved.

How do you feel on private sector working on maintaining hydro dams then? Far, far more potential of things going pear shaped than dumping nuclear waste into the ocean.

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Veloxyll
May 3, 2011

Fuck you say?!

TitanG posted:

How do you feel on private sector working on maintaining hydro dams then? Far, far more potential of things going pear shaped than dumping nuclear waste into the ocean.

That only happens once though - as opposed to nuclear that can make cities permenantly uninhabitable.

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