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Pennywise the Frown
May 10, 2010



Upset Trowel

So karate is a new sport this year and it just started and is on live right now. I don't know anything about the rules but right now they're doing kata (forms, a display of punches and kicks and stuff, sort of an art). I think kumite (sparring) is later but I heard the rules are terrible.

So let's discuss the karate games!

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Mel Mudkiper
Jan 19, 2012

It's not a sexual thing. Please don't think this is a sexual thing I just like mudkip and babies need diapers, that's how it works.

I had hoped the kata would show something that overcame my skepticism but its as silly and arbitrary as I figured it would be.

Mel Mudkiper fucked around with this message at 01:39 on Aug 5, 2021

Pennywise the Frown
May 10, 2010



Upset Trowel

Mel Mudkiper posted:

I had hoped the kumite would show something that overcame my skepticism but its as silly and arbitrary as I figured it would be.

Has it been on already? nbcolympics.com is showing that the women's karate just started at 8pm CDT. The first karate match of the games.

Mel Mudkiper
Jan 19, 2012

It's not a sexual thing. Please don't think this is a sexual thing I just like mudkip and babies need diapers, that's how it works.

Sorry I meant Kata

Pennywise the Frown
May 10, 2010



Upset Trowel

What I don't get is that katas were all preset when I ever did them. You had to learn a certain one or two per belt. They get more advanced as you advanced. You had to learn the ones that already existed. Like a dance. Do these people make up their own?

Mel Mudkiper
Jan 19, 2012

It's not a sexual thing. Please don't think this is a sexual thing I just like mudkip and babies need diapers, that's how it works.

Pennywise the Frown posted:

What I don't get is that katas were all preset when I ever did them. You had to learn the ones that already existed. Like a dance. Do these people make up their own?

I think the announcers mentioned these were pre-existing katas

Pennywise the Frown
May 10, 2010



Upset Trowel

Well that's loving boring. Anyone could do these. Anyone had to do these to get their next belt.

They are pretty drat fast though.

Mel Mudkiper
Jan 19, 2012

It's not a sexual thing. Please don't think this is a sexual thing I just like mudkip and babies need diapers, that's how it works.

I believe at one point one of the announcers said part of the technical score is how convincingly they defeat their imaginary opponent which, lol

Pennywise the Frown
May 10, 2010



Upset Trowel

I forgot to post this, which is the movie that the thread title came from. The song in the movie.

Mel Mudkiper
Jan 19, 2012

It's not a sexual thing. Please don't think this is a sexual thing I just like mudkip and babies need diapers, that's how it works.

Pennywise the Frown posted:

I forgot to post this, which is the movie that the thread title came from. The song in the movie.



If you've never gone on an adventure about how full of poo poo Frank Dux is, its a magical journey

Actually, a very good new podcast did a great episode about Bloodsport, you all should check it out

https://soundcloud.com/1900hotdog/dogg-zzone-9000-episode-28-an-ill-word-shall-not-be-spoken-of-bloodsport/s-cc8zwB3erXA

Pennywise the Frown
May 10, 2010



Upset Trowel

Mel Mudkiper posted:

I believe at one point one of the announcers said part of the technical score is how convincingly they defeat their imaginary opponent which, lol

That's not how you defeat someone.

I was in karate and TKD as a kid and one week of kickboxing showed me how much I would have gotten my rear end kicked in a real fight.

So, in TKD and karate.... when you punch with your right hand, you pull your left hand back to your hip, completely opening yourself on your left side.

In kickboxing, when you punch with your right hand, you put your left hand up to the left side of your face to block any punch or kick that comes that way.

Traditional MA is basically bullshit in real world applications. I admit that it's fun though and I really liked learning the forms and stuff. I loved getting the belts. In kickboxing and BJJ (Ben Rothwell taught me) it's not easy to get a new belt. gently caress it's super hard to get a belt in BJJ. It takes like 3 years just to get your second one after your white which you buy when you sign up.

Pennywise the Frown fucked around with this message at 01:47 on Aug 5, 2021

Mel Mudkiper
Jan 19, 2012

It's not a sexual thing. Please don't think this is a sexual thing I just like mudkip and babies need diapers, that's how it works.

Pennywise the Frown posted:

That's not how you defeat someone.

I was in karate and TKD as a kid and one week of kickboxing showed me how much I would have gotten my rear end kicked in a real fight.

So, in TKD and karate.... when you punch with your right hand, you pull your left hand back to your hip, completely opening yourself on your left side.

In kickboxing, when you punch with your right hand, you put your left hand up to the left side of your face to block any punch or kick that comes that way.

Traditional MA is basically bullshit in real world applications. I admit that it's fun though and I really liked learning the forms and stuff.

Yeah, its part of why I find this kata poo poo so silly. Karate in general is just so silly in the modern world of combat sports.

There is actually a company doing karate inspired full contact kickboxing and its actually surprisingly good and will probably be better than the kumites.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dO1cXBlLMJ0#t=2s

You just have to ignore how silly the production values are

Pennywise the Frown posted:

Traditional MA is basically bullshit in real world applications. I admit that it's fun though and I really liked learning the forms and stuff. I loved getting the belts. In kickboxing and BJJ (Ben Rothwell taught me) it's not easy to get a new belt. gently caress it's super hard to get a belt in BJJ. It takes like 3 years just to get your second one after your white which you buy when you sign up.

Yeah, I have a BJJ blue belt currently

Original_Z
Jun 14, 2005
Z so good

The participants have to choose one of the 102 recognized katas and cannot repeat a routine.

It's interesting how kata is part of this since judo seems to have no interest in adding kata to the olympics, but I'm glad to see it since high-skilled kata is really a work of art and it's an important part for Japanese martial arts training. I guess if you just want to see people fighting each other it seems boring, but anyone who's studied kata knows just how the smallest mismovement can ruin a performance. See it as closer to rhythmic gymnastics than a combat sport and adjust your expectations.

For kumite, it's very close-quarters combat and people just beat the poo poo out of each other trying to land clean hits, it's closer to taekwondo than what most people think of karate from the movies. It also uses the same words for scoring as judo but an ippon doesn't end the match, it just gives you the max points (3).

Mel Mudkiper
Jan 19, 2012

It's not a sexual thing. Please don't think this is a sexual thing I just like mudkip and babies need diapers, that's how it works.

Olympic Karate should add WMAC Masters rules and add penalty ninjas

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jX6hnoCU_bA

Pennywise the Frown
May 10, 2010



Upset Trowel

TKD was one of the worst olympic sports I've seen this year. It's just absolutely awful. Two people doing side kicks back and forth for a few minutes, their hands down at their sides not protecting themselves, and getting points for light kicks and just about zero punches to the sensors. Just terrible. And I did TKD for 3 years and was just under a brown belt.

I really enjoyed TKD (until I discovered weed) and I was really loving good at it. But watching it is so loving boring and unexciting.

Mel Mudkiper
Jan 19, 2012

It's not a sexual thing. Please don't think this is a sexual thing I just like mudkip and babies need diapers, that's how it works.

Pennywise the Frown posted:

TKD was one of the worst olympic sports I've seen this year. It's just absolutely awful. Two people doing side kicks for a few minutes, their hands down at their sides not protecting themselves, and getting points for light kicks and just about zero punches to the sensors. Just terrible. And I did TKD for 3 years and was just under a brown belt.

Did you belong to one of the schools that had camo belt.

TKD Camo Belt is the funniest poo poo to me lol.

But yeah, really any combat sport that focuses on contact more than meaningful actions ultimately loses the "combat" element and becomes elaborate tag. TKD and Fencing are big examples.

Its why Judo, Boxing, and Wrestling are still hella legit tho

Pennywise the Frown posted:

I really enjoyed TKD (until I discovered weed) and I was really loving good at it. But watching it is so loving boring and unexciting.

TKD is a beautiful performance but its not really a sport much less a combat sport

Pennywise the Frown
May 10, 2010



Upset Trowel

No, my school was very involved in competitions and we took every medal every time. I didn't compete though due to my crippling anxiety. I probably would have done excellent.

edit: also our grand master could barely speak english and there is a great pic of him at 70 years old doing a flying jump kick. His son, our master, was a loving business man, but was also very good.

Pennywise the Frown fucked around with this message at 02:03 on Aug 5, 2021

Pennywise the Frown
May 10, 2010



Upset Trowel

Watching judo was awesome. Those people loving fight.

BJJ should be in the olympics but I guess it's a bit boring to watch because it's so technical that you have to have a good understanding of it to realize what's happening and who is actually winning.

Mel Mudkiper
Jan 19, 2012

It's not a sexual thing. Please don't think this is a sexual thing I just like mudkip and babies need diapers, that's how it works.

Pennywise the Frown posted:

Watching judo was awesome. Those people loving fight.

BJJ should be in the olympics but I guess it's a bit boring to watch because it's so technical that you have to have a good understanding of it to realize what's happening and who is actually winning.

BJJ is apparently too derivative of Judo and not widely practiced enough to count.

I would be down for Olympic MMA though.

EDIT: I would actually be down for TKD Kata or TKD board breaking as an event.

Mel Mudkiper fucked around with this message at 02:07 on Aug 5, 2021

Pennywise the Frown
May 10, 2010



Upset Trowel

MMA should totally be in the olympics. Those people are at the absolute height of physical performance. But it's probably too violent for the general mass.

BJJ is 99% on the ground so it's a different world than olympic judo. In judo it's all standing and throws. They get like 10 seconds on the ground to pull off any sort of submission. BJJ is 99% about submissions, but of course positioning which can be judged.

Mel Mudkiper
Jan 19, 2012

It's not a sexual thing. Please don't think this is a sexual thing I just like mudkip and babies need diapers, that's how it works.

Pennywise the Frown posted:

BJJ is 99% on the ground so it's a different world than olympic judo. In judo it's all standing and throws. They get like 10 seconds on the ground to pull off any sort of submission. BJJ is 99% about submissions, but of course positioning which can be judged.

Oh I agree, I just was quoting the current Olympic committee argument against it

Pennywise the Frown
May 10, 2010



Upset Trowel

Mel Mudkiper posted:

Oh I agree, I just was quoting the current Olympic committee argument against it

Ugh.

Mel Mudkiper
Jan 19, 2012

It's not a sexual thing. Please don't think this is a sexual thing I just like mudkip and babies need diapers, that's how it works.

Bring in Olympic MMA and call it Pankration

Pennywise the Frown
May 10, 2010



Upset Trowel

This kata poo poo is boring me now. I want to see some fights.

Mel Mudkiper
Jan 19, 2012

It's not a sexual thing. Please don't think this is a sexual thing I just like mudkip and babies need diapers, that's how it works.

Pennywise the Frown posted:

This kata poo poo is boring me now. I want to see some fights.

Theres a famous Kata segment thats popular in Bullshido circles and its hilarious to me how much it actually looks like Olympic kata

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FISIY9s9S6U

Vaders Jester
Sep 9, 2009

Welcome to fucking Scotland.
:scotland:



You have to look at kata as the theoretical and technical display of the different techniques being taught. Bunkai being the understanding of what the kata is trying to teach so it can be applied in an actual fight.

The kumite is taking that theory and applying it to trying to push another human's teeth down their throat.

BJJ would be cool to see, but it's about as applicable "in the streets" as any other martial art, because you try to pull guard and a man stamps your skull in while you lie on the ground because no one ever taught you to throw a punch.

Mel Mudkiper
Jan 19, 2012

It's not a sexual thing. Please don't think this is a sexual thing I just like mudkip and babies need diapers, that's how it works.

Vaders Jester posted:

BJJ would be cool to see, but it's about as applicable "in the streets" as any other martial art, because you try to pull guard and a man stamps your skull in while you lie on the ground because no one ever taught you to throw a punch.

ok

Vaders Jester
Sep 9, 2009

Welcome to fucking Scotland.
:scotland:



Seeing as striking is expressly forbidden in BJJ, yeah. It's incredible in conjunction with other martial arts and loving terrifying which is why it's great for MMA with kickboxing added to it.

Pennywise the Frown
May 10, 2010



Upset Trowel

Vaders Jester posted:

You have to look at kata as the theoretical and technical display of the different techniques being taught. Bunkai being the understanding of what the kata is trying to teach so it can be applied in an actual fight.

The kumite is taking that theory and applying it to trying to push another human's teeth down their throat.

BJJ would be cool to see, but it's about as applicable "in the streets" as any other martial art, because you try to pull guard and a man stamps your skull in while you lie on the ground because no one ever taught you to throw a punch.

Do you own a sword?

edit: oh btw, like 75% of fights out in the wild go to the ground. I'd like to know how to get on top of someone and start beating the poo poo out of their face than to just be a pure striker on their feet and not know what to do when it hits the ground.

I came straight out of Marine boot camp and thought I could gently caress anyone up. We all got drunk at a house and my friend fought me and he immediately took me to the ground and I had nothing in response. I could have gouged his eyes or swallowed his balls or something but I couldn't do that in a real fight unless it wasn't a dirty terrorist. He owned me. Most fights go to the ground, learn how to fight on the ground.

Pennywise the Frown fucked around with this message at 02:39 on Aug 5, 2021

Mel Mudkiper
Jan 19, 2012

It's not a sexual thing. Please don't think this is a sexual thing I just like mudkip and babies need diapers, that's how it works.

the second any martial art argument gets into what would work "in the streets" its such a hilarious tangent because "the streets" is a nebulous concept that could mean almost any situation.

The idea a BJJ dude would start a fight by laying on the ground and be deeply confused by the existence of these mysterious "punches" tho is a bit silly.

Also wildly off topic, which is that so far Olympic Karate fukken blows.

Mel Mudkiper
Jan 19, 2012

It's not a sexual thing. Please don't think this is a sexual thing I just like mudkip and babies need diapers, that's how it works.

Pennywise the Frown posted:

edit: oh btw, like 75% of fights out in the wild go to the ground. I'd like to know how to get on top of someone and start beating the poo poo out of their face than to just be a pure striker.

I love watching Old Gracie challenge vids for this reason

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPaSaRKaqhg

Pennywise the Frown
May 10, 2010



Upset Trowel

This thread moves fast, I can't get my edits in on time.

Vaders Jester
Sep 9, 2009

Welcome to fucking Scotland.
:scotland:



Pennywise the Frown posted:

Do you own a sword?

edit: oh btw, like 75% of fights out in the wild go to the ground. I'd like to know how to get on top of someone and start beating the poo poo out of their face than to just be a pure striker.

Like I say, BJJ is loving terrifying in MMA and not getting your poo poo wrecked if you're on the ground is really important. I wish I'd done more of it before my knees decided to dislocate themselves before anyone touched me, never mind anyone actually good at it.

Mel Mudkiper
Jan 19, 2012

It's not a sexual thing. Please don't think this is a sexual thing I just like mudkip and babies need diapers, that's how it works.

hypothetical arguments about which martial art is "real" is pointless because that argument is solved. MMA has solved that argument. There is no such thing as "the streets" but there is such a thing as MMA.

The weaknesses and limitations of karate/bjj/tkd/etc/ have all been exposed in MMA and even if you want to get into "pure striker" vs "pure wrestler" you have dudes like Dan Severn who wiped the floor with Muay Thai dudes without ever throwing a single punch. Its not a grappler has never heard of or seen a mysterious "punch" before

Mel Mudkiper
Jan 19, 2012

It's not a sexual thing. Please don't think this is a sexual thing I just like mudkip and babies need diapers, that's how it works.

Boy I wish this kata didn't suck so we could talk about it instead of the same karate argument that has been going on since the letters section of black belt magazine in 1966.

Vaders Jester
Sep 9, 2009

Welcome to fucking Scotland.
:scotland:



Yeah, that's fair. MMA got rid of so much bullshit. I did karate and kickboxing and a tiny amount of BJJ before my body just poo poo the bed.

I enjoy kata for the technical skill involved but it's far from the most exciting thing in the world, I hope the kumite isn't also shite.

Vaders Jester fucked around with this message at 03:00 on Aug 5, 2021

Pennywise the Frown
May 10, 2010



Upset Trowel

BJJ can actually be a decent martial art if you have a bad knee. It doesn't take much contact. When I was at my last place there was a guy with a big outside knee brace. But a lot of BJJ is just chess so you don't have to be super hard all the time.

edit: that depends on your gym type. Ben Rothwells is pretty much a family gym.

Mel Mudkiper
Jan 19, 2012

It's not a sexual thing. Please don't think this is a sexual thing I just like mudkip and babies need diapers, that's how it works.

They should really consider adding stunt ninjas to take the hits and do flips and poo poo

Vaders Jester
Sep 9, 2009

Welcome to fucking Scotland.
:scotland:



For me, 90% is getting The Fear when I do anything with my knees because the ligaments are hosed and I can't afford to take time off for surgery if it all goes wrong again. That and one total shitlord at the gym I was at loving about with my leg in ways I did not enjoy at all.

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Mel Mudkiper
Jan 19, 2012

It's not a sexual thing. Please don't think this is a sexual thing I just like mudkip and babies need diapers, that's how it works.

I mean, BJJ can still be really hard on the knees, especially if you want to try to work De la Riva guards or X guards.

Time for Kumite which hopefully will not be elaborate tag

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