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This is something I've brought up in another thread a while back, but I figured I'd give it a shot as its own thread. Hello, my friends. Let me tell you about a certain movie. It involved a plucky young rebellion against an interstellar colonial empire...  ...the latter of which had just developed a weapon that could destroy an entire planet...  ...and in a shocking plot twist, the high-ranking officer in charge of suppressing the rebellion is the rebel leader's father!  ...but there is a mysterious hooded figure who's been pulling all the strings the whole time...  ...this real villain has mastered a powerful psychic force...  ...and this exciting conflict plays out both in star warfare and a fantastical sword fight!  Of course the movie I'm talking about is what would eventually become Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan before Nicholas Meyer came in and smoothed it over to be (among other things) less of a blatant "Star Wars ripoff except the empire are the good guys."  Certainly Star Trek II has transcended its cynical cash-in roots, but it's conspicuous watching all these interviews with the major players over the years just dance around the elephant in the room that there obviously was a mandate to "make something like Star Wars" that effected how the final film turned out at least as much as anything else. Even though the production of Star Trek feels well-documented, stuff like this signals we're still going by PR-friendly myths for the most part. Anyhow, I figure this thread could be used for:
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Sep 14, 2021 00:39
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(Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan 1982 TV spot : https://youtu.be/aoHNO86Py0c) The bigger picture here is that for some time now there's been an unchallenged narrative that TWOK immediately set the template for all Star Trek movies going forward. Now that's not untrue necessarily, but overlooks that TWOK was and still is a bit of a deliberate departure from the rest of the series.  - It has a focus on space combat that's unique to the movies and much of the franchise. If you count the Kobayashi Maru sequence there are three battle scenes and you even get the impression the Enterprise is first and foremost a battleship. The series actually pivoted away from TWOK in this regard; it wouldn't be until the end of Star Trek VI that we'd see another dedicated battle scene. Afterward the TNG movies each included one (often in a obligatory manner), and surprisingly enough despite some odd pew pew here and there and lots more general action I'd actually argue the reboot movies don't feature any real battle scenes. - The pepto bismol alien gore of Star Trek VI notwithstanding, TWOK is pretty noticeably more violent and gruesome than any other movie in the series, a couple times going full-on horror. - TWOK goes out of its way to inject as much youth into the cast as possible. Saavik, David, Joachim, Peter Preston, the rest of the trainees, the Regula I crew, and even (rather inexplicably) much of Khan's posse are all conspicuously fresh-faced. It's part of the movie's themes, sure, but I believe Nicholas Meyer developed Kirk's whole "I feel old" thing from the young folks' presence rather than the other way around (the "youthful rebellion" was there from Harve Bennett's very first treatment). The series would abandon this pretty quickly; it wasn't until the 2009 film that they'd make another attempt at a young cast. Reading some of the contemporaneous reviews of the movies there's a sense that the series snapped back to a mean after the two extremes of TMP and TWOK - Roger Ebert posted:"Star Trek III" looks for a balance between the first two movies. It has some of the philosophizing and some of the space opera
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Sep 14, 2021 07:21
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SidneyIsTheKiller posted:The series would abandon this pretty quickly; it wasn't until the 2009 film that they'd make another attempt at a young cast. Not true. Following the disappointing box office of The Final Frontier, and tired of dealing with the egos of Shatner and Nimoy, Harve Bennett and David Loughery wrote a Starfleet Academy script that originally only featured DeForest Kelley (but later included Shatner and Nimoy in bit roles). The gimmick was that McCoy was addressing a graduating class at Starfleet Academy, and he was asked, "What was it like aboard the old Enterprise?" So he goes on to tell this tale about how the crew came together as young turks, overcoming their differences and becoming friends, yada yada, ultimately they save the day from some evil alien force. Loughery described it as "Top Gun meets Star Trek." Concept art had been done, locations had been scouted, casting calls had been made, the whole nine yards. So word went up to Martin Davis, the CEO of Paramount, that a new Trek movie was getting ready to begin pre-production. Davis, a lifelong fan of the series, said something like, "Great, are Bill and Leonard happy with the script?" The person delivering the news, I think it was Teddy Zee, kind of meekly said, "Oh, well ... they kind of have cameos." Davis hit the motherfucking roof and demanded a full-cast original series adventure in time for the 25th anniversary, which meant they had 18 months to go from page 1 to the movie hitting theaters in December. Woof.
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Sep 14, 2021 20:38
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Where does Benedict Cumberbatch come in here?
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Sep 14, 2021 23:35
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I think of Wrath of Khan more as a submarine battle in space than a star wars style climax but I haven't watched it in easily a decade.
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Sep 15, 2021 02:13
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Timby posted:Loughery described it as "Top Gun meets Star Trek." Ooh yeah I'd forgotten about this. I recall the cast who objected to the project referred to it derisively as "Police Academy meets Star Trek." I just got the blu ray rerelease and was pleasantly surprised to find a fairly recent retrospective. One interesting bit involved Gene Rodenberry's assistant Susan Sackett sort of downplaying both of them leaking Spock's death to the public and says their intention was to promote the movie. Which is... quite a different characterization of that story than how it's typically recounted, which has it that, under orders by Rodenberry, Sackett went to a fan convention and proclaimed "They're going to kill Spock!" as if sounding an alarm bell.
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Sep 15, 2021 02:16
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SidneyIsTheKiller posted:Ooh yeah I'd forgotten about this. I recall the cast who objected to the project referred to it derisively as "Police Academy meets Star Trek." Doohan. quote:I just got the blu ray rerelease and was pleasantly surprised to find a fairly recent retrospective. One interesting bit involved Gene Rodenberry's assistant Susan Sackett sort of downplaying both of them leaking Spock's death to the public and says their intention was to promote the movie. Which is... quite a different characterization of that story than how it's typically recounted, which has it that, under orders by Rodenberry, Sackett went to a fan convention and proclaimed "They're going to kill Spock!" as if sounding an alarm bell. Sackett ... man, that's a whole can of worms, right there. Bucket of insanity.
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Sep 15, 2021 03:10
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reignofevil posted:I think of Wrath of Khan more as a submarine battle in space than a star wars style climax but I haven't watched it in easily a decade. You remember right, that's another one of Meyer's contributions. Prior drafts had the Enterprise outmaneuvering planet-killing "Omega missiles." There's still been precious little insider commentary on certain aspects of TWOK's development beyond the fact that they existed, like Khan's psychic powers (an element apparently important enough that one draft replaced Khan with an original villain seemingly to better accommodate it), the scene they had to cut due to a stuntman in blackface, and The Child from Ceti Alpha V. With Harve Bennett gone, producer Robert Sallin has become more visible, and he's at least made a couple oblique comments, on the blu ray calling the drafts "inappropriate" and in the liner notes of the soundtrack he's quoted, "We had some characters that had electricity coming out of their fingertips. I was very, very concerned." There's also that telling anecdote in which Shatner reacted to the planet-destroying weapon becoming a terraforming device with "Now THERE's the Star Trek spirit!" as though he'd been frustrated the scripts were trying to be something else.
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Sep 15, 2021 04:05
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SidneyIsTheKiller posted:Khan's psychic powers (an element apparently important enough that one draft replaced Khan with an original villain seemingly to better accommodate it) Khan's mind powers stayed around pretty late in the writing process; at one point he was going to use them against Kirk in what would've been the only time they actually met during the movie. Khan's powers were recycled into Sybok in Star Trek V, which overall was recycled from an unused story for II in which the crew would've been sent to investigate a cult that had taken over a planet, only the cult would've been led by Khan, with David as one of his followers.
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Sep 15, 2021 04:47
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^The first half of Star Trek V is pretty Star Wars-like itself. Coincidence? I think NOT.  Thread's got me digging out my copy of the old The Making of Star Trek II paperback (my understanding is that this is STILL our main source for what TWOK looked like pre-Nick Meyer) and thumbing through I stumbled on this bit that I'd forgotten: "At the crucial moment of confrontation between Kirk and the aliens, the voice of the dead Spock is heard, and both Kirk and McCoy feel his presence." Ghost Spock: "Use the logic, Jim!" (*The aliens referred to here are extradimensional psychic beings Sojin and Moray, which were this particular draft's replacements for Khan and Marla McGivers)
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Sep 15, 2021 05:50
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SidneyIsTheKiller posted:the scene they had to cut due to a stuntman in blackface Alright, I want to know the story here. Did they put him in blackface and then immediately realize it was a bad idea, or did he just show up in blackface and nobody noticed?
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Sep 15, 2021 07:26
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Angry Salami posted:Alright, I want to know the story here. Did they put him in blackface and then immediately realize it was a bad idea, or did he just show up in blackface and nobody noticed? I googled real quick before replying and lo and behold turns out earlier this year the film's unit publicist Eddie Egan had gone on record about this incident. https://heavy.com/entertainment/star-trek/how-blackface-stoped-wrath-of-khan-filming/ quote:He told the Treksperts that on the set of Khan, production ground to a halt. It was for the scene in which Captain Terrell (Paul Winfield) and Chekov (Walter Koenig) explore the barren surface of the planet, Ceti Alpha V. Rumor had it that there was a stunt involving Terrell taking a tumble down a sand dune. Sounds like that wasn't the case? Either that or it was a minor enough sequence its removal wasn't necessary to mention.
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Sep 15, 2021 16:47
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Let's check out some more old school geekery: "Well, um, if they kill him off I think people will tear down the theater!" 'audience reaction to Special Preview of Star Trek II The Wrath of Kahn May 8th, 1982 in Kansas City.' https://youtu.be/MJrayJm2VHk The cast of Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan are special guests on 'The John Davidson Show- June 8, 1982' https://archive.org/details/TheJohnDavidsonShowJune81982
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Sep 16, 2021 05:52
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I hereby pre-approve a SidneyIsTheKiller thread for every original series Star Trek movie, as and when is seen fit.
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Sep 16, 2021 12:19
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 Terrell and Chekov beam down to the coordinates of the settlement, but it is gone. Nothing but desert—high winds and shifting sands. A hooded figure appears out of the sandstorm. Chekov draws his phaser. The hooded man’s eyes GLOW. Chekov recoils in fear as he sees his phaser change into a snarling rat. He hurls it away. The figure leads them to a lava cave and removes his hood. It is Khan. Marla McGiver (looking very much like Khan’s “Lady Macbeth”) is there, as are twelve survivors (ten men, two women) of Khan’s group. Home-made scientific apparatus (including two six feet tall glass tubes) are scattered about the place. Chekov asks how they survived. McGiver proudly looks at Khan and says, “Only through the power of that magnificent mind.”
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Sep 17, 2021 03:21
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He faces Khan, also armed with an “Andorian Fire Mace.” Both balls burst into flames and Kirk and Khan swing them at each other, holding only the unburning chains in both of their hands. Khan smashes Kirk’s left arm, leaving it useless. But since he is a fair fighter he changes the weapons to ones requiring only the use of one hand--cat o-nine-tails with writhing snakes for tails. The “Romulon Medusa Whip,” Khan kindly explains, used only in affairs of honor, and only to the death. Khan casually flicks the whip at David, shredding his chest. The young man collapses, bleeding. Kirk and Khan fight with these weapons until Kirk gets the upper hand, then Khan, fatigued, perhaps, changes the weapons to Icthyan Swords, which resemble swordfish, tapered with serrated teeth edges. The Genesis Project written by Jack B. Sowards and Harve Bennett. FINAL DRAFT, dated April 10, 1981, report & analysis by David Eversole.
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Sep 17, 2021 03:34
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Sep 18, 2021 03:00
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Damning stuff to be sure.
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Sep 18, 2021 03:07
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That is probably the kindest letter ever dictated (not read). “Jesus, I hate to write this.” Incredible. I’m assuming genes main problem is that there wasn’t a ferengi hanging monster dong in the scene.
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Sep 18, 2021 03:57
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To be fair to G.Rod, he's reacting to that "Kirk and Khan throw fireballs at each other" draft and Spock's funeral may have played differently in it (should also note that Scotty playing the bagpipes in the finished film did draw some giggles from the audience; James Horner added that quiet prolonged chord on the strings to help mitigate it). Most everyone on the production, Harve Bennett included, seemed to agree that the scripts were pretty dire before Nicholas Meyer did his uncredited rewrite. It's funny how The Making of Star Trek II, being an official studio-sanctioned book, doesn't say that Meyer wrote the final script, but it'd be obvious to fans now regardless because it's titled "Star Trek: The Undiscovered Country."
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Sep 18, 2021 04:31
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Oh I believe Spock's demise was still occuring in the middle of the movie at this point in production too, which I have to believe would have some affect on how that sequence comes off. I'm pretty sure they invented the Peter Preston character because they still wanted something tragic in the middle after moving Spock's death to the finale.josh04 posted:I hereby pre-approve a SidneyIsTheKiller thread for every original series Star Trek movie, as and when is seen fit. Thanks, btw, I'll be sure to get this post notarized in case anyone asks for proof of your authorization! SidneyIsTheKiller fucked around with this message at 05:29 on Sep 18, 2021 |
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Sep 18, 2021 05:23
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what's that guy's problem with bagpipes?
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Sep 18, 2021 09:31
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I feel bad for how un-PERSONAL AND CONFIDENTIAL that letter evidently became.
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Sep 18, 2021 10:02
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If it makes uou feel any better, pretty much everyone involved in that letter is dead! 
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Sep 18, 2021 10:42
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Sounds like we've got a mystery on our hands boys.
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Sep 18, 2021 13:25
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SidneyIsTheKiller posted:Rumor had it that there was a stunt involving Terrell taking a tumble down a sand dune. Sounds like that wasn't the case? Either that or it was a minor enough sequence its removal wasn't necessary to mention. Looks like there is some evidence that the above moment existed, going by the top left corner of this magazine spread.  Of further significance is that this moment would have been connected to the jump scare involving The Child in the Botany Bay.  Both of the above look like they might have been publicity shots, but even so those usually correspond to actual scenes in the film. https://drive.google.com/file/d/12cLKD19_qmRWhof99krU_Iy1XzJck45k/view?usp=sharing
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Sep 19, 2021 02:09
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Of course you can't mention THE CHILD without bringing up its appearance at the end. 
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Sep 19, 2021 02:14
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SidneyIsTheKiller posted:Of course you can't mention THE CHILD without bringing up its appearance at the end. The workprint of Wrath of Khan (which is available for screening at USC's film library, or at least it was pre-pandemic) is seriously proof positive of just how much a movie can be saved--or ruined--in the edit.
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Sep 19, 2021 21:44
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When did fandom first become aware of the workprint? I only just recently found out about it but the impression I get is that the tape has been sitting there this entire time in obscurity because it was listed under a codename. Part of me kind of hopes it never leaks aside from the audio clips floating around. Like you have to take this nerd pilgrimmage if you really want to see it lol. Edit: It intrigues me the different opinions over whether William Shatner "ruined" the shot discussing Sulu's promotion to Excelsior (per George Takei's claim). I've read both "that's exactly what happened" and "nothing of the sort occured" and it just makes me more curious how the same footage could lead people to such polarized conclusions. SidneyIsTheKiller fucked around with this message at 00:35 on Sep 20, 2021 |
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Sep 20, 2021 00:16
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SidneyIsTheKiller posted:When did fandom first become aware of the workprint? I only just recently found out about it but the impression I get is that the tape has been sitting there this entire time in obscurity because it was listed under a codename. The first time it probably really entered the fans' consciousness was when the 1982 ShoWest trailer resurfaced on the Internet about 20 years ago and gave glimpses of a bunch of different stuff (Spock explaining that Saavik is half-Romulan, David and Saavik getting flirty with each other, some more bridge footage during the battles). quote:Edit: It intrigues me the different opinions over whether William Shatner "ruined" the shot discussing Sulu's promotion to Excelsior (per George Takei's claim). I've read both "that's exactly what happened" and "nothing of the sort occured" and it just makes me more curious how the same footage could lead people to such polarized conclusions. Shatner's fine in that scene. He's just delivering incredibly clunky dialogue about Sulu's promotion that was painfully written, and they were right to trim the scene.
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Sep 20, 2021 02:39
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This is the trailer in question, right? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Od4BjWW5jTw Man, his delivery of "Who knew where to hit us, and why?" and "Fire!" in that trailer after Spock remotely drops Reliant's shields are really illustrative of Meyer's story about having to wear down Shatner with repeated takes to get him to settle down.
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Sep 20, 2021 07:20
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Farmer Crack-rear end posted:This is the trailer in question, right? I believe that's the one, yep. LOLLLL at Nimoy shaking his head, like he's reacting to Shatner's scenery chewing
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Sep 20, 2021 09:41
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Might just be the medium of giant grey macroblocks, but that is the most boring trailer I think I've ever seen. It closes out with the main cast running away from danger!
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Sep 20, 2021 11:21
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josh04 posted:Might just be the medium of giant grey macroblocks, but that is the most boring trailer I think I've ever seen. It closes out with the main cast running away from danger! Well, it wasn't really meant for public consumption. ShoWest was an annual trade show put on by the National Association of Theater Owners, and the studios would have trailers at the show to let exhibitors know what was coming up in the next year or so.
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Sep 20, 2021 19:35
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I thought that it was weird that in-context, Shatner's weird KHAN! scream that got passed around the internet a bunch was actually the character of Kirk trying to ham it up to lure in Khan rather than being all that personally distraught, and he had a secret plan in place for dealing with that scenario. They pull that trick multiple times in the movie, just pretending to be beaten while working another plan in secret. In the end, even Spock apparently planned some screwy way to come back after his own no-win scenario. Shame that Scotty's nephew wasn't just pretending to be dead.
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Sep 20, 2021 20:42
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SlothfulCobra posted:I thought that it was weird that in-context, Shatner's weird KHAN! scream that got passed around the internet a bunch was actually the character of Kirk trying to ham it up to lure in Khan rather than being all that personally distraught, and he had a secret plan in place for dealing with that scenario. Other folks have pointed that out, too, but honestly Kirk still has plenty to be infuriated about even if he has a plan (Kirk can bluff but he's not a great actor - "Genesis, what's that?" lol); he's just seen two innocent people get killed, his friends and family threatened, and Khan's about to run off with a space nuke. There's also no guarantee that Reliant won't still be able to find Enterprise. Interesting to see that the script gives Kirk a ramp-up "Khan!" before hitting the big one. Him going from 0-60 in the film is part of what makes that moment so meme-able (or, hell, with Kirk's prowess in scenery-chewing maybe it'd just be twice as awesome!). quote:KHAN'S VOICE You know, I've actually never felt 100% sure how to read this scene from Khan's end. Most people seem to interpret Khan being in orgasmic victory, but to me he almost seems resigned and disappointed, like he's merely settling for stranding Kirk rather than killing him outright. He also has to know that Kirk stands a reasonable chance of eventually being found and rescued by Starfleet (even if the days/weeks he spends in the Regula cave are REALLY lovely). Another moment I've never been certain how to interpret is in Kirk's apartment and his line to McCoy, "Don't mince words, Bones, what do you really think?" Part of me suspects the line was written to be sarcastic but Shatner delivered it sincerely. Or maybe not? But even if we presume it was misunderstanding, it makes for an interesting beat.
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Sep 21, 2021 01:59
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Timby posted:Well, it wasn't really meant for public consumption. ShoWest was an annual trade show put on by the National Association of Theater Owners, and the studios would have trailers at the show to let exhibitors know what was coming up in the next year or so. Yeppers, which gives them incentive to let the scenes play out longer in this type of trailer: the studio already booked a June 1982 release date with theaters before they started filming (in fact, they hadn't even finished the script), and one of the purposes of this preview was reassuring anxious buyers that yes, the movie you bought is coming along and will indeed be finished in time for you to show it.
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Sep 21, 2021 07:52
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SidneyIsTheKiller posted:He also has to know that Kirk stands a reasonable chance of eventually being found and rescued by Starfleet (even if the days/weeks he spends in the Regula cave are REALLY lovely). I'm not sure about that. Khan didn't know about the caves until Terrell and Chekov beamed down with Kirk, and contact was cutoff before Marcus indicated that the tunnels they saw were just initial support apparatus for the real Genesis activities. I think he figured he was entombing Kirk forever.
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Sep 21, 2021 19:23
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I skimmed through the Japanese dub of this movie (it's on the latest blu-ray) for the first time and came across a voiceover during the shots of the Enterprise leaving dry dock, and a surprisingly lengthy one at that. The voice doesn't seem to match any of the characters that I can tell. I don't know Japanese so the only word I could make out is "Enterprise." This seems to be the only scene where such a thing happens. Curious! Edit: God I love watching dubs for movies I'm familiar with sometimes. In the above Japanese dub there's generally more audible commotion during battle scenes (in particular the shot where the Reliant is first hit and it looks like some guy is falling from the ceiling) and it sounds like there are more female voices than there are women on the bridge. 
SidneyIsTheKiller fucked around with this message at 04:35 on Sep 25, 2021 |
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Sep 25, 2021 03:19
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I've reviewed "Khaaaan!!" in French, Spanish, German, Japanese, and it turns out the French dub comes closest to doing the Shatner scream justice, and gets added points for going even higher/ louder on the second "Khaaanan!" making it explicit here he's shouting again and not just an echo. German comes up the most short I'm afraid, surprisingly wimpy.
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Sep 25, 2021 05:03
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