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Kith
Sep 17, 2009

You never learn anything
by doing it right.




^ lol

Klaus88 posted:

Warcraft 3's custom mapping scene was the apex of entertainment per dollar spent for me.

That's it, that's all I've got, I really loved diving into custom maps because of their insane diversity, something new and entertaining with almost every map.

I've genuinely never seen anything like it before or after and that fact that its attached to such a height of scumbags hurts. It hurts real bad.

I'm in the same boat. Hell, I started my entire career in game development because of Warcraft III and Starcraft II's editors, and honestly watching all of this unfold has been heartbreaking. Tons of connections that I spent years building are just gone now because of all of this poo poo.

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Kith
Sep 17, 2009

You never learn anything
by doing it right.




Kith
Sep 17, 2009

You never learn anything
by doing it right.




Heran Bago posted:

It's a drop in the ocean, and I don't have any skin in the game, but the way Blizzard shuttered Heroes of the Storm was some bullshit.
They announced publicly that they were shutting down the eSports scene and taking developers off the game. This public announcement is how professional players and casters found out they were out of a job.

This also came immediately after a Blizzcon presentation where they talked about how excited they were for the next HGC season. It wasn't just the players and casters, but the developers too.

Kith
Sep 17, 2009

You never learn anything
by doing it right.




Reforged absolutely obliterated the 15 or so people that I knew that still did WC3 maps. Just utterly gutted an entire community of people that basically worked for Blizzard for free.

Kith
Sep 17, 2009

You never learn anything
by doing it right.




Heran Bago posted:

BLIZZARD poo poo TIMELINE

this is a real good post and deserves to be part of the OP imo

Kith
Sep 17, 2009

You never learn anything
by doing it right.




Double Bill posted:

I'll have to do actual legal stuff? gently caress this job I'm out

I've actually talked with Blizzard's legal department as part of trying to monetize some of the mods that I worked on for Starcraft II. Their job is to pressure modders into accepting lovely contracts, bully fan projects, and serve cease and desists, not contest genuine legal battles. The last major thing that Blizzard's lawyers had to do was the DOTA debacle. From what I heard, the overall opinion after the dust settled was "man that was entirely too much work for too little gain, if we have to do that poo poo again we're walking".

Kith
Sep 17, 2009

You never learn anything
by doing it right.




HotS definitely could have flourished if they marketed it properly (as a MOBA more focused on fun and representation of Blizzard characters than competitive viability) and if they pumped out cosmetics that people gave a poo poo about (see: more recolors. just more loving recolors. five minutes in photoshop hue shift recolors). Instead, it was forced into an overcrowded market and its reward system was clogged with what were effectively empty drops to pad out the loot boxes and try to get people to spend money on the things they wanted.

Also all heroes have needed to be free since like, Day 1.

Kith fucked around with this message at 00:04 on Sep 24, 2021

Kith
Sep 17, 2009

You never learn anything
by doing it right.




Captain Oblivious posted:

Itís because there was no such pattern. Sometimes new heroes were OP. Just as often they were downright bad or average. If they were trying to make heroes overpowered to push sales they sure didnít do a good job of it.

Release Hanzo was effectively worthless, even after they buffed his numbers by 20% across the board during his PTR. Probius had an initial bump of "oh poo poo it's a new hero and I don't know how to deal with it" and then immediately evened out into "do not play Probius".

HOTS's problem isn't necessarily that new releases are overpowered, but that they're designed for completely different experiences. For example, compare ETC and Mei:

ETC has a stun-dash, an AOE knockback, a self-heal, and his trait gives him a bit of armor for a short duration whenever he uses an ability. Mei has an AOE blind with a slow, a dash that ends in a knockback and a slow, an AOE slowing field that ends in a stun, and a trait that makes her Unstoppable, gives her a Shield, and rapidly heals for huge amounts of health.
ETC has a quest that makes his self-heal slightly better, Mei has a talent that gives her healing whenever she applies any crowd control effect to an enemy hero.
ETC has a wind-up Heroic that channels a stun over 4 seconds that can be canceled by any Crowd Control, Mei has a Heroic that comes out almost instantly that creates a huge snowball that snatches enemies and carries them to a designated point almost an entire screen away.

Old heroes were designed with Talents intended to focus them into complete characters. New heroes are feature complete out of the box, with Talents adding onto that.

Kith fucked around with this message at 15:02 on Sep 24, 2021

Kith
Sep 17, 2009

You never learn anything
by doing it right.




Dick Burglar posted:

Mei came so long after HotS was killed, I hardly think it's fair to use her as an example.

Weird complaint, but okay.

Raynor has a linear skillshot that deals decent damage and a negligible to small amount of knockback. Zul'jin has a linear skillshot that deals middling damage and marks the target, increasing the amount of damage Zul'jin deals to them by +50% for a few attacks.
Raynor has a castable attack speed booster. Zul'jin gains Attack Speed as he loses health.
Raynor has a self-heal restores 25% of his maximum health over 1 second on a 40 second cooldown. Zul'jin has a self-heal that channels to restore 30% of his maximum health on a 15 second cooldown.
Raynor's trait is that he has +1 Attack Range and deals a little over double damage every 4th attack. Zul'jin's trait is the aforementioned Attack Speed booster, a toggle ability that increases his damage by 25% at the cost of 2% maximum health per attack, a quest that increases his Attack Damage by 1 for every 5 attacks he makes against enemy heroes, a quest reward that increases his Attack Range by 1 when he hits enemy heroes 75 times, and another quest reward for 150 hits.
Zul'jin also has an ability that cannot be compared to Raynor that throws two axes in a circle, dealing damage to all enemies hit and stacking a slow effect. The previously mentioned second quest reward makes it rotate a second time, effectively causing it to deal double damage.
Zul'jin has ANOTHER ability, also which cannot be compared to Raynor: he can damage himself for 50% of his Current Health and then heal for that amount over 10 seconds, effectively allowing him to access a huge amount of Attack Speed moderately safely.

Also Zul'jin has 425 more Maximum Health than Raynor does.

I could keep going, if you'd like.

Kith
Sep 17, 2009

You never learn anything
by doing it right.




Studio posted:

I'd rather you didn't, because it's extremely funny to compare the purposefully kept simple hero that was explicitly made for new players and sold in the starter bundle, to what is very much a high-risk high-reward hero.

Zul'jin is very far from high risk/high reward. He's intended to be, but he's actually one of the safer Heroes because it's very easy to play him at a reasonable speed thanks to his range, durability, and access to a self-cleanse and immortality button. If you want someone who's actually high risk/high reward, try Butcher, Alarak, or Illidan.

Since Raynor is off the table for an arbitrary reason, why not compare Sonya and Dehaka? They do basically the same job, except Dehaka is more durable, has an escape, is less vulnerable to CC, and has global mobility.

Kith
Sep 17, 2009

You never learn anything
by doing it right.




Studio posted:

I mean you don't understand the context. If you're talking about complexity and how expanded kits have gotten over time, comparing what is on purpose and by design a simplified character seems faulty. Raynor is the tutorial character, the "just in case, we're making sure you know how to right click to move" character. He used to be sold in the starter bundle because of how simple and approachable he was, not sure if he is now. Of course other characters will get more complex overtime, that's how game design works on live service games. You react to how much your playerbase understands the current set and push it further over time.

Even your Dehaka and Sonya comparison lacks any sort of context understand. Sonya does a ridiculous amount of damage, or at least when Dehaka was released. You could pop Sonya into a lane and she'd sustain or win most 1v1s. Late game with an Uther Divine Shield she could solo multiple backliners. Dehaka could play an early game bully and ganker, but late game could not be anywhere near the potential contribution a Sonya had. I'm not sure what it's like now, but checking HotSLogs puts them at similar win and pick rates now.

It's ironic that you're saying that I'm not understanding the context given that the initial thrust of my argument is something that you re-hashed by pointing out how live service games evolve over time:

Kith posted:

HOTS's problem isn't necessarily that new releases are overpowered, but that they're designed for completely different experiences.

That said, just because I don't agree with exempting Raynor from comparison to later releases doesn't mean that I don't understand the context of his role, design, and implementation. I just picked Raynor because he was the best example of stark difference, I can compare any of the early assassins to later releases like Zul'jin or Greymane and it'll all make the same point of "later releases have more tools and are therefore capable of more things".

For example, to expand on my Sonya vs Dehaka comparison: how much damage Sonya does is irrelevant. It's great that Sonya can bully the backline better, but all things being equal, Dehaka is simply more flexible because he has more tools and therefore can fulfill more roles, which he can do because (as you said) the understanding of the game evolved over time and (as I said) he was designed to suit a different game experience. Dehaka isn't better or worse than Sonya, he just has a broader range of application. Since you happened to bring up HOTSlogs, let's look at the stats for Dehaka and Sonya for Master+Diamond:



Similar pickrate and winrate, but Dehaka's got a 5% lead in popularity because he's got over a thousand more bans than Sonya does. This is likely because - as I've pointed out - he can simply do more stuff.

Kith
Sep 17, 2009

You never learn anything
by doing it right.




Moola posted:

it was good actually!

:agreed:

Kith
Sep 17, 2009

You never learn anything
by doing it right.





Jury trial demanded. You could say they're in... a blizzard of poo poo. :cool:

Kith
Sep 17, 2009

You never learn anything
by doing it right.




eighteen million dollary-doos

Kith
Sep 17, 2009

You never learn anything
by doing it right.




yeah its not like blizzard has a habit of mishandling esports so badly that it straight-up inspired legislation

Kith
Sep 17, 2009

You never learn anything
by doing it right.




honestly the idea of being a civilian in like, social zones and non-combat situations sounds strangely compelling. it actually gives a reason why everyone is being civil instead of whipping out their Super Powers all the time

though on the other hand it raises the Powerpuff Girls issue of "superpowers are fun to use and if you can fly/levitate why not just do that instead of walking like a pleb"

Kith
Sep 17, 2009

You never learn anything
by doing it right.




what about soulful corporations

can i make friends with them

Kith
Sep 17, 2009

You never learn anything
by doing it right.




Zwiebel posted:

The problem with going "Everyone is like this" is that this is literally something that racists/sexists/other bigots will consistently tell others to normalize their own behaviour, so I'd appreciate it if we'd stop aiding them in justifying, normalizing or excusing their lovely behaviour. That just makes us part of the problem and only serves to silence/marginalize people that know better than to be a piece of poo poo.
It is, in fact, not normal anymore to be a complete poo poo to the lgbtq community, that's why assholes get so mad and desperate about it.

I get that it's a dumb off-hand joke but I've had to deal with that exact garbage argument before when I stumbled into people going on stupid racist rants and it wasn't true then and it isn't true now. People have a capacity for being lovely or uncaring about things, but claiming everyone can't help but be garbage only empowers the worst behaviour.

its good that moola didn't claim everyone is like that then

Kith
Sep 17, 2009

You never learn anything
by doing it right.




Chillgamesh posted:

What exactly is meant by the phrase "most people are garbage" in the context of a discussion of bigots taking over unmoderated communities then

probably the same thing that "i loving hate white people" means when my best friend vents to me about the prejudice that they experience for being brown in a podunk backwater community. it sounds like someone venting over having bad experiences in the past but also being conscious enough to leave room for a reasonable worldview (see: "vast majority of people" as opposed to "everyone")

anyways this is basically what's happening atm:

https://twitter.com/MikeDrucker/status/1137068315229208578?s=20

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Kith
Sep 17, 2009

You never learn anything
by doing it right.




tracer's polish name is smuga

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