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A Buttery Pastry
Sep 4, 2011

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Magmarashi posted:

In no world can I see a bad game expansion being responsible for investigations from allegations of sexual misconduct, what even the gently caress?
Still a stretch in terms of outcomes (Enron did get destroyed, but would the SEC hit Activision hard enough to bankrupt it?), but the chain of events is something like:

- Blizzard burns through good will at an alarming rate
- It's revealed how deeply toxic Blizzard's company culture is
- The one-two punch of bad games and a worse company culture encourages an exodus
- (Possibly) declining profits plus undisclosed legal liability angers investors
- The SEC gets involved, due to the aforementioned undisclosed legal liability (=fraud)

Right? If Blizzard had a better reputation, the people with money might not have made waves, and thus not caused the SEC to get involved. That's really what the argument hinges around, how impactful investor discontent was in actually causing the case to go forward.

A Buttery Pastry fucked around with this message at 05:27 on Sep 21, 2021

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A Buttery Pastry
Sep 4, 2011

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Buckwheat Sings posted:

Games are a big deal but yeah guessing the numbers dropping spooked shareholders and they want blood.
Yeah, I don’t see them trying to stir trouble if they believed their money was in safe hands. A Blizzard at full prestige might have been strong enough to weather this poo poo and calm investors, but incompetently scrambling like they’re doing is like the opposite of what you want to instill investor confidence. It’s not investors going “Wow, Shadowlands was bad, let’s destroy Bobby”, it’s “They kept us in the dark, and clearly have no idea how to get us our money back”.

A Buttery Pastry
Sep 4, 2011

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tithin posted:

Incompetent scrambling has been their entire modus operandi since their spiral really started to hit its stride in the last 36 months.
At the corporate level? They were making record profits and projecting contemptuous dominance over their customers, convincing the investors that they were winners who’d make them money. These panicked attempts at placating their customers on the other hand project weakness, which is not what you want to do in front of investors.

Just to be clear, I’m not saying a single bad expansion did them in, just that their reputation being much weaker wouldn’t help matters. At full prestige, they might have had a shot at burrying the whole affair with some relatively minor payouts, satisfying investors enough to not take it to the SEC.

A Buttery Pastry
Sep 4, 2011

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Furism posted:

They don't need WoW2 to be honest. When it comes to WoW, they just need to get their poo poo together by listening to their players. They have a ton of quality feedback on how to fix the game and what to do (or not do) in the future. The issue seems to be they don't really seem to listen, and a lot of people are putting that on account of Senior Game Designers (or whatever their title is ; basically the people who call the design shots). Is it ego? Is it "we know better" ? Who knows. But numbers and, ultimately, money talks.

We know they know because in the next patch they're going to make a lot of things go smoother, and make the grind a lot more easier by cutting out a lot of the bullshit. It feels like it was ready to go. "In case of emergency, release that patch" ; and maybe we just reached the emergency? Who knows.

But my point is, they could totally salvage WoW, they don't have to release a whole new game. Releasing a whole new game but repeating the same mistakes would not salvage poo poo. They need to change their attitude, and if they do, they could do it in WoW.

Of course, releasing a kick rear end WC3 or SC3 wouldn't hurt. Or maybe a smaller scale, turn-based RPG in either universe. They have a lot of options besides releasing new "seasons" for existing games.
I suppose it depends on what your perspective is on WoW, but an ounce of retention is worth a pound of cure. The amount of effort required to keep people playing/engaged would've been a lot smaller than that required to bring them back, and the latter will just keep growing until they really convince people it's worth coming back.

Obviously releasing a new game would not fix poo poo on its own, but the visionary required to lead them into a proper WoW renaissance would be the same visionary who'd do it as a new game.

SubponticatePoster posted:

That or "you people have hosed this so badly from front to back that there's no salvaging it and I would like to work in something other than retail the rest of my life."
Yeah, if your superiors won't listen to you when you do the job you're paid to do, and their behavior can permanently tarnish your professional reputation, there's really no choice left but to leave. Not like she can just go full blast on them and expect to get a job somewhere else.

A Buttery Pastry
Sep 4, 2011

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Minrad posted:

I mean I think something like Shadowlands is entirely salvalgeable if they just focused on not wasting the player's time. That was all that was really wrong with BFA, Legion, and to a tiny extent WoD as well.
There's a lot more wrong with WoW than them wanting to waste people's time, and a lot of it isn't new - it's just more obvious in hindsight or put into focus by later developments. It obviously doesn't help, but you're still left with questions like:

- Why am I supposed to care about all this "cosmic" poo poo?
- Why has the game been boiled down to just being about fighting?
- What's the point of the faction divide at this point?
- Why do they put less effort into the in-game A plot writing than they did for any of the longer vanilla leveling storylines?
- Why should I care about a game whose basic structure/plot is one that justifies genocide and exults racial holy war?

Point 1 would be solved by a reboot bringing everything down to earth, point 2 would be much more easily fixed by designing the game from scratch to be open to more varied playstyles, and point 3 would definitely be easier to fix in a reboot. 4 and 5 could be dealt with in current WoW, but it would definitely require a lot of work, and probably result in a rain of death threats (or worse) directed at the people trying to fix that poo poo. Remaking the game so the nastier bits of the setting get excised or the proper framing would likely be a lot easier for people to swallow.

Furism posted:

A Buttery Pastry made a good response to my post about the perceived need for a WoW 2. It wouldn't have so much "taint" associated to it. But, sex offenders aside, the problem is the way they perceive game systems: lots of grind and farming to achieve anything, longer and longer time between new content patches, and just bad writing.

Edit: I mean, it's fine to have daily quests you have to do again and again if what you get is a nice mount or transmog at the end. It's not so cool if it's mandatory for raiding.
I want to add that the lack of "taint" might also be an advantage internally, since the new developers and writers wouldn't be asked to try to fix all the problems that the sex offenders caused*, which is probably a better environment for fostering new ideas and encouraging new perspectives on what a WoW could be.

*Probably while harassing the employee in question

Rogue AI Goddess posted:

Most lawyers tend to have a good sense of what an hour of their time is worth, and are less likely to accept the "work for passion, not money" line.
The ones working for passion definitely wouldn't gravitate towards a private business like ABK, they'd be public defenders or district attorneys, passionate about defending the innocent/putting the innocent in jail.

A Buttery Pastry
Sep 4, 2011

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Bioshuffle posted:

Is there a chance all this lawsuit stuff will affect the release schedule of Diablo 4? I wouldn't think so, but if I knew for sure, I wouldn't be asking.
If it doesn't affect the schedule, it's at least gonna affect the time put into it. Though I imagine the eventual shakeup in the company might affect the schedule to inspire investor confidence of whatever.

A Buttery Pastry
Sep 4, 2011

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FeatherFloat posted:

And like, this feels insincere because it's Blizzard and they haven't done enough yet to earn any benefit of the doubt that this is a first step in a long line of fixes versus it's a quick coat of paint that will never be revisited or followed up on in the future once the heat has died down. It's not bad because too-showy demonstrations of diversity and inclusion are somehow inherently bad. The example given of the "best" video game inclusion move being one that wasn't announced is like... is diversity only good if you don't talk about it? Don't discuss it? Don't make anyone uncomfortable with the implication that maybe things before weren't as good? Don't be showy and obvious about it? Don't be too queer, too feminist, too woke? Maybe that's not what's being implied but that's the feeling I get when people say that the best ways of doing this are the most invisible, and anything too overt is "at the expense" of some pure, "neutral" version of the thing.
Showy demonstrations of diversity and inclusion from any major organization are super suspect though, because unlike people, the vast majority actually are poo poo (though to different degrees/in different ways). Being showy/not showy about it isn't inherently an issue, you're right, but being showy about it indicates that it is a PR stunt, rather than something the organization truly stands for. Like all of Blizzard's big attempts at showing how diversity and inclusive it is, which basically meant poo poo for how the company was actually run. Conversely, silently rolling out these changes over time would indicate that the company does actually intend to live up to the mission implied by those changes, because it's not being used for PR.

I can understand why you're reading it like you are though, because criticisms of rainbow capitalism have two things to focus on - and that post sounded more like the relatively reasonable intro to a critique of/rant about the first part, rather than the setup to a discussion on the ways capitalism attempts to put diversity into neat little boxes it can sell back to people.

Of course another aspect to it is where your focus lies. If you're the type of person to look at the big picture, this sort of thing basically just registers as a weak smokescreen, while someone who's a bit more about the small scale would see employees getting a chance to actually change poo poo they care about. The fact that organizations aren't just individuals kinda complicates the discourse beyond the yes to diversity/no to diversity issue. Positive impulses at one level can be turned negative as the people heading the organization use them for their own ends.

A Buttery Pastry fucked around with this message at 06:25 on Oct 5, 2021

A Buttery Pastry
Sep 4, 2011

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Grondoth posted:

This makes the fact that the board is stickin' with him make more sense. 292 is a ridiculous sum for making a CEO leave, so the fact that they haven't taken the most obvious move makes much more sense. I don't know why they signed this contract, but knowing it's like a AAA budget to fire the guy is an understandable barrier protecting his neck.
Pretty smart of him to have death pay out nearly as much.

A Buttery Pastry
Sep 4, 2011

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Pollyanna posted:

Also given how reluctant they are to cut Kotick, he probably has dirt on a lot of people. If the prosecution is smart, they'd flip him.
Kotick didn't kill himself.

A Buttery Pastry
Sep 4, 2011

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smoobles posted:

Doesn't Kotick get like $300 million if he's fired? What the gently caress is wrong with rich people

I can't understand how this guy could be that critical to Blizzard's success in the eyes of the board, too. Blizzard has these massive IPs, and more money than god, they can afford to clean house and hire the best talent out there.
It's not about Blizzard's success, it's about the value of the stock. A stock that's far more dependent on King than Blizzard, if it's based on anything real, because King makes more money. (at least according to the numbers people presented a few months back.) Or, as someone pointed out, Kotick might have a say in whether they remain the CEO somewhere else. He might be costing them a bit of money here, but that's a small price to pay for not losing your own cushy CEO position.

Arsenic Lupin posted:

Hint: The board, like most of the senior staff at Actiblizzard, think nothing all that bad happened.
Yeah, it's not like the stock cratered or anything. Getting rid of Kotick not only means possibly paying out 300 million, it also has the potential to frighten investors, all for the chance of maybe getting someone as qualified* to run the company? That's all ignoring the fact that these people are, well, people, and make friends with each other. They might not recognize 99.99% of people as people, but they want their golf club/pedo ring pals taken care off.

*You know, connected/amoral

yook posted:

Shareholders love mass layoffs that spike a company’s share price at the expense of its long term health.

And Bobby is their hatchet man.
That's definitely also something to keep in mind. One of the most effective ways to make money when you're rich is ruining successful businesses, because capital can flow almost unimpeded and you can start the practice over immediately after making off like a bandit from your last venture. Making Blizzard a great gaming company again is not on the agenda, if it happened it would be entirely on accident.

A Buttery Pastry
Sep 4, 2011

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Chillgamesh posted:

I mean let's be real, it's just Sony and MS taking the opportunity to try and milk better deals out of Activision for CoD crap while they have bad press hammering them.
We can hope it improves things a bit,. Not because of anyone acting in good faith, but because ABK's investors do not want the company to be pressured by other companies like this.

A Buttery Pastry
Sep 4, 2011

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Cantorsdust posted:

That plus taking the opportunity to up their title. Would be a great opportunity to move from a junior dev to senior dev or get that project manager title, etc. Add it to your resume, jump ship in a year and repeat your applications starting negotiations from a higher position and salary.
Isn't Blizzard known for having poo poo salaries, compared to most other game companies? Since they pay you in "prestige" too. I feel like a recruiter might look at a Blizzard position and decide to lowball you because you clearly don't know the value of your labor.

A Buttery Pastry
Sep 4, 2011

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Magmarashi posted:

Acti-Blizz makes enough money for an occasional contract killer so I never understand what the problem is that they can't 'get rid of' someone like that

It certainly isn't a morality issue!
It's a morale issue. Their entire leadership structure would be too scared of having their brake lines cut to get any work done planning parties and tournaments.

A Buttery Pastry
Sep 4, 2011

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Ghost Leviathan posted:

Didn't one football game get outright shut down because of the audience behaving atrociously?

That might be the only real solution, scorched earth approach.
The 2008 qualifying match between Denmark and Sweden had a Danish fan attack the referee in the last minute of the match, when it was a 3-3. The match was abandoned, and eventually changed into a 3-0 win for Sweden. A bit harder perhaps to implement "fair" collective punishment in the gaming scene though, since fans aren't gonna be as clearly associated with any given team /player.

Kanos posted:

Yeah, depending on the specific game's esports setup, a lot of esports players make a significant share of their money through prize takes, so if you cancel a big money tournament because the audience are a bunch of howling idiot morons you're seriously cutting into the players' potential bottom lines.

That and it's really likely to backfire - if you cancel an event because the audience keeps yelling misogynistic poo poo at a female player, the fan reaction is probably going to be to blame the woman for ruining everything, not for the fans to police each other.
Yeah, I feel like it'd be more effective to pause the event and make a big show out of banning the worst offenders. You don't need to actually change the minds of the rest, they just have to think it's not worth it to continue. If you continue applying that sort of policy, the culture around the events should eventually change.

That said, if you attempted this, you should definitely also hire bodyguards for the participants.

A Buttery Pastry
Sep 4, 2011

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Endorph posted:

banning them how? from what? it takes like 20 seconds to get back into a stream chat and its not like you can get twitter or facebook to ban them. and even if you could, they can just make a new one of those, too.
My brain went to actual physical events. Still, it seems like you could deal with the worst of the issue by limiting the ability to post in chat based on account age/activity.

A Buttery Pastry
Sep 4, 2011

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SyntheticPolygon posted:

I'm waiting for the metaverse implementation he promised.
FFXIVR

A Buttery Pastry
Sep 4, 2011

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Endorph posted:

video game movies have been tried a bunch and very rarely been a success. there's a ton of flops, and the biggest successes are fairly modest. like, what, the resident evil movies?
Adjusted for inflation, all the Resident Evil movies, including the animated ones, make up about 20% of gross of the entire franchise. Obviously that's not income though, and I imagine Capcom saw a smaller portion of that, making the movies even less relevant as a money maker.

That said, if Riot is any indication, movies/TV shows based on games might increasingly get made as advertisement for games/franchises that just happens to also make them some money. Like, if the gaming side of things is so much bigger than the movie/TV show side, it makes a lot more sense to use the latter to boost the former than try to cash out on the "prestige" of the games for a quick buck.

A Buttery Pastry
Sep 4, 2011

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Rarity posted:

I said Marvel, not just the MCU. If you add up all the Marvel franchises on that Wikipedia page it comes out to $100 billion which is still behind Pokemon but only just :eng101:

Detective Pikachu did well too and I imagine the upcoming Mario movie is going to do gangbusters. And it's not a movie but Arcane has been a legit breakout hit
The MCU includes most of the other Marvel stuff though, right? You can't just add them all together then.

A Buttery Pastry
Sep 4, 2011

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Rarity posted:

Marvel existed before 2008
Sure, but the big Marvel stuff is almost entirely MCU. You can’t add Avengers on top of the MCU value.

A Buttery Pastry
Sep 4, 2011

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Studio posted:

The problem with NFTs in larger games is that game companies don't really want a limited supply of anything they're selling. It's easier to make an outfit that can be resold for a decade and can be sold to hundreds of thousands of players instead of 600 expensive hats to 600 people - maybe. Most games have mechanics where big whales can spend a whole bunch of money to get something really juicy too, but never limited. On top of that, unless game companies can get a chunk of the resell, they absolutely don't want to support that.
Easy solution: You buy the rights to using a version of that hat with a specific dye. That's over 16 million "unique" hats per model. Allow for double dyes, and you have enough versions for the population of 30,000 Earths.

A Buttery Pastry
Sep 4, 2011

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Fruits of the sea posted:

Right now there is a slow and painful push to get the understanding that in-game currencies/battle passes/tokens etc. can be a method for obfuscating gambling elements. It is going to take years for regulators to figure NFTs out.
I feel like that has to be willful ignorance. Like, how is an in-game currency meaningfully different from chips at a casino? Is it just the fact that you generally can't translate that poo poo back into real world money?

A Buttery Pastry
Sep 4, 2011

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Ghost Leviathan posted:

Are they wrong?
Yeah, most religious people aren't Christian.

A Buttery Pastry
Sep 4, 2011

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Fruits of the sea posted:

Oof, that's a hell of a job to take on. I hope she doesn't get creepy blizz fans employees sending hatemail and stuff.

A Buttery Pastry
Sep 4, 2011

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Scholtz posted:

Worse than that; wouldn't going from 70 to 50% be a nearly 30% cut?
Yeah, it's 29%.

A Buttery Pastry
Sep 4, 2011

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Vegetable posted:

I’ve honestly never seen poisonous content on YouTube.

By contrast my partner gets recommended Tucker Carlson videos because YouTube thinks she enjoys “debate videos.”

I do spend a gently caress ton of time on YouTube watching videos relevant to me so it’s probably just about the amount of data they have on you.
Yeah, "the algorithm" seems a bit more discerning than just feeding you political poo poo because you once watched a Dark Souls video. It's entirely possible to watch both political videos, and videos on subjects that very likely have significant traction among right-wing viewers, and still not get recommended the political videos those people consume. The ability to tell YouTube to not recommend you a channel, or to tell them you're not interested in a video, seems pretty drat effective to me.

As for the thing about the amount of data they have, I want to add/clarify that it's probably the amount of data they have on how to get you to engage a lot with the platform. If the algorithm hasn't managed to find something to hook you with, then it probably ends up falling back on old tricks, even if the trick is literally the kinds of videos you tell it not to recommend. Which I suppose turns it into a sort of blackmail situation, where you can either engage voluntarily until YouTube is satisfied or be served poo poo until you either do or leave.

A Buttery Pastry
Sep 4, 2011

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Studio posted:

I mean it all depends on what they're doing with it, but YT has absolutely pushed conservative politics without a history in it. I read what I think was this article a while ago, but like Brazillian YouTube like had an effect that led to more right-wing politicians being successful there. Essentially young Brazilian men would get gaming videos, gaming videos with a bit of politics, then just outright conservative videos, which they'd been eased to by the earlier gaming videos.
For sure. It's not the solution to the systemic issue, but it can work at the level of the individual.

A Buttery Pastry
Sep 4, 2011

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Strategic Tea posted:

I love that middle class is 0. Presumably that means upper class is like -5 or something? Does it just say 'flip to page 2 - baddies'?
This is about diversity (as interpreted by MIT/King), not privilege. Upper class characters are less common, so they should give more points than middle class characters.

A Buttery Pastry
Sep 4, 2011

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Lube Enthusiast posted:

(barely containing rage) This is not okay. Ana is a milf and deserves far, far more that a 1 out of 7 on the beauty scale.
Ana's score of 1 makes her an entirely mainstream videogame babe within their metrics, as higher scores means a divergence from the norm.

A seven would probably be someone like this:


Please take care to keep your anger under control so as to approach issues with a calm and rational mind, so as to not fall prey to similar misapprehension in the future.

A Buttery Pastry
Sep 4, 2011

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MechaCrash posted:

I think it's just because the suits saw the tidal waves of money that mobile gaming were making, and said "let's announce the Big New Phone Game at our Big Fancy Convention About Us," and if anybody knew that the sources of that phone game money were absolutely not in the audience, they went ignored.
I feel like they absolutely were, just not in the numbers needed to prevent the reaction. Which isn't surprising given that most of the money comes from whales, even before you consider the PC Gamer crowd. A guy spending 1000x the average on the game might take up a lot of space when looking at revenue, but in a venue his voice is no louder than anyone else's.

A Buttery Pastry
Sep 4, 2011

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FishMcCool posted:

I've never been a fan of those hero-based designs personally. A set character for story-oriented games, sure, but for a FPS? I'd rather they gave you the skill bar in the form of a character class and then provide you with a good cosmetic character creation tool. That would have saved them a ton of self-made issues and allowed everyone to go to town with body shapes, skin colour, mech frames, etc. I might be the minority though, quirky heroes games seem pretty popular. Or I'm just showing my age. :corsair:

FishMcCool posted:

Yeah, thought of that one after posting. I guess icons don't quite cut it.
If you dropped the idea of giving people control over the overall body shape of a given class, which is an issue for both hitboxes and visual clarity, you could still achieve a lot of this with some creative design. Admittedly it's a bit harder for certain shapes, but given that their character designs range far into the cartoonish, there is a lot more leeway to try weird poo poo. Stuff like skin color/race/culture would of course be very easy, since it's basically just a question of some minor details, and overall silhouette could be made very similar by bulking up with clothes and gear. Even a base "skinny woman with big tits" shape could probably be mimicked like that, if you lean into the cartoonish aspect.

A Buttery Pastry
Sep 4, 2011

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Ironslave posted:

These days I'm inclined to think that reputation was just PR spin on their atrocious and ineffective work cycles and abusive culture.
Blizzard's best games were made by Blizzard North, a completely different company that it absorbed.

A Buttery Pastry
Sep 4, 2011

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Kanos posted:

This probably pushes revisionism a bit far. Blizzard North was responsible for Diablo and Diablo II, which were obviously both masterpiece games, but they had nothing to do with the -craft games which were also genre-defining classics.
I just said their best games were made by someone else, which makes their golden age far less impressive.

A Buttery Pastry
Sep 4, 2011

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Kanos posted:

I understood that. My point is that the Warcraft games and Starcraft(which were made by Blizzard inhouse) were equally as good and important as Diablo(which was the franchise made by North). Even if the Diablo franchise did not exist, Blizzard still had an incredibly strong record of quality video games that any game studio would have been justifiably proud of.
But not as strong.

A Buttery Pastry
Sep 4, 2011

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Analytic Engine posted:

lol gently caress off, people like different genres
?? Even if you prefer the -craft games, the two Diablos clearly added to the reputation of Blizzard?

A Buttery Pastry
Sep 4, 2011

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kliras posted:

twitch is generally too small in terms of revenue for big media to care. had reporters literally tell me this
Makes sense, given that its yearly revenue is on the scale of like Avatar.

A Buttery Pastry
Sep 4, 2011

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30.5 Days posted:

There's no functional difference between something that makes a game better and something that makes a game more addictive, because your enjoyment of something equals the release of the brain chemicals that are related to addiction.
I don't think that's true. (Some) developers clearly design games to keep you engaged longer, which means stretching addictive gameplay features as far as they'll go, rather than creating tighter games that people will enjoy much more while playing them and then put away when they've gotten their fill. It is also ignoring the non-gameplay aspect of games, which might also be harmed immensely by getting stretched out for the sake of addictive gameplay.

That's not to say that there isn't a strong correlation, but I'd argue the better games are the ones that leave you searching for another hit, rather than the ones drip feeding you just enough to keep you engaged.

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A Buttery Pastry
Sep 4, 2011

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Lady Radia posted:

again, proof of ownership of art pieces and especially of creators being able to prove they own an art piece is important, and whether a centralized location handles that or not, a form of NFT that allows that transparency and contract to be, well, non-fungible is pretty important. nothing an api or db or whatever couldnt solve but a decentralized block chain lets u prove that ownership if like the smithsonian breaks down as america falls apart and the brave Canadians need to take over or some poo poo. i'll reiterate nfts today aren't that and are just a ponzi scheme but there's a reason artists were really hype for it at the very start
The problem being real doesn't mean any given proposed solution is, or could be.

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