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Does Star Trek ever deal with Mining Cartels, or like a quasi-governmental trade power like the East India Company? If something like that was separate from the Federation, they would be as or more powerful than them, if they are overseen by the federation, that raises a lot of questions
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Oct 18, 2021 15:10
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Conscience of the King, for the record, is my favorite TOS episode. What we know about the Tarsus IV famine is that a supply ship (which apparently in one short story was the Enterprise under Robert April's command, but that's incidental, though I'm all for more Robert April recognition) did get to the planet, just not in time to stop Kodos from executing half the colony. We don't know what caused it (one novel suggests a terrorist act, but it could just be that Kodos was a lovely governor in more ways than the obvious). Resource scarcity was clearly a thing in TOS (and to an extent in TNG, replicators be damned) in numerous stories, and if you're (the general you) going to argue that this conflicts with the idea of a "utopian" society, then fair enough. The Federation as an aspirational society that was trying to build on the successes of the past (in terms of figuring out how to stop murdering each other on Earth, etc.) works better and feels more interesting to me than a Federation that has no more progress to make. The "utopian" vision is in a society that is even trying to be better, a society of (for example) murderers who make the decision every day that they're not going to kill today.
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Oct 18, 2021 15:27
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FunkyAl posted:Does Star Trek ever deal with Mining Cartels, or like a quasi-governmental trade power like the East India Company? If something like that was separate from the Federation, they would be as or more powerful than them, if they are overseen by the federation, that raises a lot of questions I don't recall anything specific aside from other mercantile galactic powers like the Ferengi (or arguably the Orion Syndicate). TOS had independent traders like Harry Mudd and Cyrano Jones but I'm not aware of any specific trade cartels (though I guess we don't actually know how the various mining colonies and such were organized).
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Oct 18, 2021 15:30
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docbeard posted:Conscience of the King, for the record, is my favorite TOS episode. The food on Tarsus 4 was lost to "an exotic fungus", so the cause of that particular famine could be excused as 'just' an unfortunate natural disaster. However, poor planning is still a factor: the colonies covered so far are all highly centralized "eggs in one basket" operations. It's very rare to have redundancies, to the point that Kirk is confused by the dispersed settlements in This Side Of Paradise: "We felt three groups would have better potential. If disease were to strike one group, the others would be less likely to be affected. You see, Omicron is an ideal agricultural planet. We're determined not to suffer the fate of expeditions that went before us." There is definitely no excuse in the case of Cygnia Minor, though, as it's well within range of other occupied planets - yet is offered no help. There's only the false promise of a miracle technology. Even if this 'synthetic food' were actually invented, it would still need to be put into production somehow. How is that plan more viable than just shipping food over from nearby worlds? Implicitly, it's because synthetic food would be cheaper. The Cygnian colonists just can't afford better. As for who's responsible for all these colonies, This Side Of Paradise is an example of how cagey the series can be. The farmers went out on "an expedition", with the intent of mass-producing food, then were left with zero oversight for several years until somebody realized "oh dang, they're probably dead". Given that they seem to have only brought along a bunch of old-timey plows and stuff, the whole thing seems to have been an independent 'hipster' business venture from the beginning.
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Oct 18, 2021 17:30
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:People are dying because the Federation is repeating the history of the United States from around the 1800s. Maybe they're all bunch of libertarian types who choose to move out to the colonies out of sheer contrariness. We're presented no reason to believe there's a good reason to be out there, the core of the federation, wherever it is, clearly isn't hurting for resources, nor is there any reason to assume its 'full'. Therefore we can assume no one is out there due to material conditions, leaving ideological ones as the most compelling reasoning. If a bunch of people want to leave a society of plenty that's overcome its social issues just because, its hard to fault said society for what happens to them.
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Oct 18, 2021 18:02
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:There is definitely no excuse in the case of Cygnia Minor, though, as it's well within range of other occupied planets - yet is offered no help. There's only the false promise of a miracle technology. Even if this 'synthetic food' were actually invented, it would still need to be put into production somehow. How is that plan more viable than just shipping food over from nearby worlds? Implicitly, it's because synthetic food would be cheaper. The Cygnian colonists just can't afford better. There is, you know, an actual explicit reason that the 'false promise of a miracle technology' happens. Tom Leighton told that lie for a very specific purpose, and it was a lie that would have had serious consequences for him if he hadn't faced other, more immediate consequences for being right. We have no reason to believe that Cygnia Minor wasn't offered any help, much less that they were expected to settle for an inferior solution because of their wealth or lack thereof. We know basically nothing about Cygnia Minor at all aside from this throwaway line in Conscience. We could just as easily assume (with I think more credibility since the Federation aren't actually presented as callous monsters in the show) that for whatever reason they can't grow or produce their own food (or at least not enough of it) and need to have it shipped in on the reg (which is currently happening because, again, not monsters), and a legitimate synthetic food that they could produce on-world would have eased that strain significantly. Or, since this is TOS, an Evil Computer Space God turned up and transformed their crops into stone because they hadn't built sufficient statues in Landru's honor or something. We just have no idea. In fact, all nine series to date are actually about the shadow war between the Federation and the Acolytes of Landru. In this essay I shall
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Oct 18, 2021 18:57
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SlothfulCobra posted:
Spoilers: it didn't work.
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Oct 18, 2021 20:36
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docbeard posted:
even for the feeblest, most backwards of interstellar travel capable societies the progress that still needs to be made should not be figuring out how to keep everyone fed
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Oct 19, 2021 00:05
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The Voice of Labor posted:even for the feeblest, most backwards of societies capable of interstellar travel, the progress that still needs to be made should not be figuring out how to keep everyone fed Tell that to "Grip Cruelty," the 507th middlest middle manager in charge of moving 700 Grothons (approximately 638,900 tons) a day of the element "yurpzite," a substance used in alien plumber's epoxy. If the shipment does not make it daily, pipes on 400 alien worlds will burst, causing countless household accidents and statistically between seventy six and thirty three thousand floods, killing as many as four million people. On day one. His job is specifically overseeing a team of subordinates whose job it is to be cruel to an army of unpaid beetle-slaves.
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Oct 19, 2021 00:35
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docbeard posted:We have no reason to believe that Cygnia Minor wasn't offered any help, much less that they were expected to settle for an inferior solution because of their wealth or lack thereof. We can actually tell a lot from the one line, thanks to all the context surrounding it. Leighton and Kirk are both survivors of the Tarsus 4 massacre, and - here’s a big kicker - both were evidently deemed “superior” by Kodos, and spared execution. In the aftermath, dealing with the guilt and trauma, Kirk has become a Space Marine and Leighton has spent years trying to solve the famine problem through scientific research. Famines are still an issue. In order to attract Kirk’s attention and pull him away from his duties, Leighton obviously chose this particular lie because it’s plausible and high-stakes - but also because he knows Kirk personally experienced famine on a Federation colony and has devoted his life to fighting similar persistent threats. So now we’re getting into the very heart of what the show is about : namely, what Enterprise is even doing out there. Despite what the opening monologue says, nearly all the exploration of strange new worlds is happening between police actions and, like, desperate shipments of vital supplies. Conditions in the colonies are really fuckin’ bad, and they’re making people turn bad. This has been going on for decades. That’s the context behind all of Kirk’s idealistic speeches. It’s why he’s particularly annoyed at the various Space Gods. When, in City On The Edge Of Forever, Kirk talks about ‘taking all the money spent on war and spending it on life instead’ - this still hasn’t happened, even for him. There are at least two ongoing wars in the series. Going back to This Side Of Paradise for a moment: “we’re determined not to suffer the fate of expeditions that went before us.” How many expeditions have failed? How many colonies have died? So Kirk is aware of an impending famine on a nearby planet, and he’s personally upset by it, but it’s also something he treats as an everyday occurrence that he can’t do much about. It‘s not a utopia. SuperMechagodzilla fucked around with this message at 00:40 on Oct 19, 2021 |
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Oct 19, 2021 00:37
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The perspective on colonization in TOS seems to be that it's a noble endeavor, and justifies the loss of life in pushing the frontiers beyond what can be reliably supported because that expansion is essential. The Federation (or just Earth depending on the episode) needs colonies to secure territory, to extract industrial resources, to contest that territory with foreign powers. And it will take almost any risk to achieve this. This cycle is assumed as an inherent truth in the show, and many of the moral quandaries are about how to reconcile that reality with humanist values - generally using Spock's 'Vulcan Logic' perspective to explore them.
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Oct 19, 2021 05:04
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I watched the conscience of the king last night. never mind taking famine and ersatz eugenics and massacre as proof of the capitalist indifference of the federation towards its colonies, kodos fakes his own death and then goes into hiding as an actor? worse, his daughter, over the course of what couldn't be more than a year or two commits 6 murders, comparing her 7th murder and 8th and 9th attempted murders, like I don't think she was all that suave or cautious about them or about not leaving a bunch of evidence behind, all the murder victims had a commonality that apparently had it's own federation wiki list. like, the space cops in star trek are terrible at their jobs if their jobs are solving crimes or protecting the citizenship. even in the terminator the LA pd started doing something after the second sarah conner was killed
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Oct 19, 2021 23:20
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also bones' close "jim, are you merely a dirtbag sprung on a barely legal psycho babe or are you a megalomaniac dirtbag sprung on her dad because you can't stop wondering if you would've done the same thing in his place?" jim's got quite the log to fill out, between the initial thing of diverting off course then basically abducting a murderer and ordering the murderer's next victim to take up a post where they would be especially vulnerable to murder. security came out of the woodwork when kirk paged them on the intercom, what were they doing when outside contractor was wandering around unescorted through the ship almost killing two people and blowing a hole in the ship?
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Oct 20, 2021 01:55
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Lenore’s murder plot in Conscience is totally sensible when you get past the fact that she’s not doing it for practical reasons. She doesn’t need to kill the witnesses, but she’s got the space madness and believes it will literally erase the past and fully transform Kodos into Karidian. Lenore easily got away with the first six murders because, from the outside, the deaths would appear totally random. She then continues to act ‘recklessly’ because she doesn’t know her father is under investigation. (Lenore doesn’t learn that part until after she tries to kill Kirk.) Kirk is where the real weirdness is. Although he may have been planning the old Hamlet trick, the twist of the episode is that the title actually refers to Kirk’s conscience. With the walls closing in, Lenore was hoping that the final performance would convince Kirk that Kodos is truly a changed man, and that they could live happily ever after. And, perversely, Kirk seems to have been considering that option as much as he was considering pressuring Kodos into suicide or something. So this is an episode where even the show’s resident idealist very obviously does not come out clean - foreshadowing for City On The Edge Of Forever, in a way. (The real big question, of course, is why there’s zero official investigation into Leighton’s death.) SuperMechagodzilla fucked around with this message at 04:22 on Oct 20, 2021 |
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Oct 20, 2021 04:17
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Lenore’s murder plot in Conscience is totally sensible when you get past the fact that she’s not doing it for practical reasons. She doesn’t need to kill the witnesses, but she’s got the space madness and believes it will literally erase the past and fully transform Kodos into Karidian. Kirk may well have told Starfleet that Operation: Hot Actress was his official investigation into Leighton's death. That would be a very him thing to do. Beyond that, there was probably an offscreen investigation on Planet Q after Enterprise left but once Lenore was found out it didn't matter much any more. I like your take here, and it's one of the reasons I love this episode so much. Kirk is tasked with something he can't really handle, and he doesn't handle it well at all (not unlike Hamlet) though, this being Star Trek and not Shakespeare, Lt. Riley only nearly dies as a result. I was thinking last night, have we ever, in any series, seen civilian Federation law enforcement? (Odo, arguably, but he's not Federation.) Even if you accept that Starfleet isn't really a military organization (which may be the official line but lmao) surely there'd be Federation cops. We know there are lawyers.
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Oct 20, 2021 15:59
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docbeard posted:Kirk may well have told Starfleet that Operation: Hot Actress was his official investigation into Leighton's death. That would be a very him thing to do. Beyond that, there was probably an offscreen investigation on Planet Q after Enterprise left but once Lenore was found out it didn't matter much any more. "I've done things I've never done before. I've placed my command in jeopardy." Kirk's 100% gone rogue. He refers to this as "personal business" and, whatever he finds, he's clearly banking on the Federation looking the other way. Yet, even if the troupe were all innocent, Kirk's transgressions include directly interfering with any investigation into Leighton. Was the murder even reported? Kirk: From here on I've got to determine whether or not Karidian is Kodos. Spock: He is. Kirk: You sound certain. I wish I could be. Before I accuse a man of that, I've got to be. I saw him once, twenty years ago. Men change. Memory changes. Look at him now, he's an actor. He can change his appearance. The crucial point of this exchange is that Kirk actually agrees with Spock: Karidian and Kodos are biologically the same entity. The actual argument is over whether Kodos deserves a chance to reinvent himself. "Men change. ... Look at him now." I think the more interesting thing is not where the space cops are (since Kirk evidently is the space cops), but what exactly happened at Tarsus 4? If Kodos executed 4000 people out of 8000, why are there only nine eyewitnesses? How did Leighton survive, and how could Kodos have plausibly burned to death? There's an unspoken implication of a much larger conflict - one where Kodos' 'revolutionary' gang was obliterated by those they spared, and/or by whatever forces finally arrived.
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Oct 20, 2021 17:19
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there's so much to to be totally incredulous about in that episode, I kind of took tarsus 4 as just being another splatter of writer's fancy. that the famine was caused by a fungus seriously leads me to believe that something like ergotamine poisoning is implied and the whole colony just had a mass hallucination and by the time they had come down half of them were dead, the supply ship had landed and kodos has absconded. that kirk seems like, really nonplussed by kodos' crimes, when leighton, reily and spock take the whole mass murder thing seriously is especially troubling. I don't think godlike forgiveness because he wants into those hot hot 19 y/o daughter pants really explains it. was kirk part of the death squad?
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Oct 20, 2021 23:21
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when you think about it, we're all part of the death squad. every one of us has paid taxes into a brutal empire
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Oct 21, 2021 00:44
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The Voice of Labor posted:that kirk seems like, really nonplussed by kodos' crimes, when leighton, reily and spock take the whole mass murder thing seriously is especially troubling. I don't think godlike forgiveness because he wants into those hot hot 19 y/o daughter pants really explains it. was kirk part of the death squad? In fairness, I’d place Kirk at like 12 years old at the time of the incident. However, Tarsus 4 absolutely contextualizes Kirk’s praise for Khan in Space Seed - and the eventual decision to hand Khan his own planet: “He was the best of the tyrants and the most dangerous. They were supermen, in a sense. Stronger, braver, certainly more ambitious, more daring.” Plus, in This Side Of Paradise: “Man stagnates if he has no ambition, no desire to be more than he is. [...] Maybe we can't stroll to the music of the lute. We must march to the sound of drums.”
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Oct 21, 2021 01:13
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think I'm gonna watch doomsday machine next because I remember really liking it as a kid. totally looking forward to kirk giving a soliloquy revering the awesome authenticity and noble, randian self determination of machine whose sole function is to destroy
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Oct 21, 2021 04:24
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I think crazy and questionable episode premises like that is a lot of what gives the original series its charm as part of a much earlier wave of sci-fi. It's totally bonkers with some very weird ideas being expressed in between simpler morals. Sometimes it's something that seems wrong like giving a mass murderer a chance to just change his ways, sometimes it's about how cool it would be to evolve into a weird form of energy being. It's wild. They had no shame going weird, and a lot of the time writers were just wildly spitballing ideas.
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Oct 21, 2021 05:36
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SlothfulCobra posted:I think crazy and questionable episode premises like that is a lot of what gives the original series its charm as part of a much earlier wave of sci-fi. It's totally bonkers with some very weird ideas being expressed in between simpler morals. Sometimes it's something that seems wrong like giving a mass murderer a chance to just change his ways, sometimes it's about how cool it would be to evolve into a weird form of energy being. It's wild. They had no shame going weird, and a lot of the time writers were just wildly spitballing ideas. I think this is weirdness is something perceived retroactively; original Star Trek is extremely focussed on some very specific ideas. The whole Tarsus 4 incident, at least in Kodos’ mind, was a microcosm of the entire Federation suffering a slow death as its systems failed, with no new innovation. Humanity is on autopilot, drifting towards the apocalypse. This is where Kodos could step in with his ill-defined ‘revolutionary’ ideology. His eugenicist leanings stem from a belief that humanity has been enslaved by “The Machine”, and that strong men are needed to make hard choices: Karidian: Here you stand, the perfect symbol of our technical society. Mechanised, electronicised, and not very human. You've done away with humanity, the striving of man to achieve greatness through his own resources. Kirk: We've armed man with tools. The striving for greatness continues. But Kodos... Karidian: Kodos made a decision of life and death. [...] And, if the supply ships hadn't come earlier than expected, this Kodos of yours might have gone down in history as a great hero. This is of course referring the issues raised in Court Martial, Ultimate Computer, and so-on. The technology itself isn’t the issue; people in the Federation are simply being driven insane in ways that the fanciful new technologies can only exacerbate. “You have brought us down to the level of the machine. Indeed, you have elevated that machine above us. I ask that my motion be granted, and more than that, gentlemen. In the name of humanity, fading in the shadow of the machine, I demand it. I demand it!” SuperMechagodzilla fucked around with this message at 00:54 on Oct 23, 2021 |
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Oct 22, 2021 17:38
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Farmer Crack-rear end posted:when you think about it, we're all part of the death squad. every one of us has paid taxes into a brutal empire Taxes don’t fund expenditures, but yeah people in the metropole are to various degrees complicit in the actions of the empire. What joke are you even making
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Oct 23, 2021 00:48
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who says i'm joking
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Oct 23, 2021 17:13
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watched doomsday machine and omega glory. following conscience of the king, that's three episodes in a row where the main story beat is starship captains making bad decisions, their crew being killed/endangered as a result and the captain subsequently getting more unhinged and making worse decisions. lol thet the federation does different uniform insignia for each ship. also gestating a theory that overall episode quality in inversely proportional to thetime spent having fight sequences
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Oct 24, 2021 19:01
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so what are the best episodes of the animated series? I picked one at random and it was the one written by chekov where a dude makes a giant clone of spock. coincidentally that episode is the source for one of the samples in my favorite this morn omina song
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Oct 30, 2021 09:19
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The Voice of Labor posted:so what are the best episodes of the animated series? I picked one at random and it was the one written by chekov where a dude makes a giant clone of spock. coincidentally that episode is the source for one of the samples in my favorite this morn omina song Watch them all and then you tell us.
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Oct 30, 2021 13:00
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the only one that ever looked interesting to me was the child spock origin story
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Oct 30, 2021 19:36
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I keep getting hung up on the clutch cargo levels of limited animation. like, I can't focus on the stories because I'm to busy basically counting the cells they used for a scene and how they blocked stuff so they wouldn't have to animate the mouths moving the walter koening penned one was honestly pretty good storywise for star trek, at least when you consider that it was compassed into 21 minutes
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Oct 30, 2021 20:50
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Animated has far better hit-to-miss ratio than the series proper - and it’s mercifully short, should you ever need it to be. The minimal animation is usually made up for with the extremely breezy editing. They’ll typically fit a full episode’s worth of content into 20-odd minutes. I’m partial to Spock Episode, One Of Our Planets..., The Survivor, Albatross, and The Slaver Weapon. The Jihad is fuckin’ nuts with loveable characters, and should have been spun off into its own series instead of TNG.
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Oct 31, 2021 03:21
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I liked the twist and the pacing is really brisk. I've notice, the jihad, doomsday machine and corbonite maneuver all feature distances expressed in meters that belie the writer not knowing how long a meter is kinda glad jihad didn't get spun off into star trek muppet task force. neat as that might have been, if live action girl brock had been a thing, gbs would be dying of horniness right now 
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Oct 31, 2021 04:24
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The Voice of Labor posted:lol thet the federation does different uniform insignia for each ship.
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Nov 1, 2021 02:55
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For The World Is Hollow and I Have Touched the Sky wants to be a Paradise Syndrome but with Bones, but it fails so badly because the writing is so rushed. The narrative breathlessly darts from "Bones has an incurable space disease we've never heard about (and never will again)!" to "Bones and Natira have fallen in love!" to "Bones is staying on Yonada!" to "Bones has been disciplined by the Fabrini implant and doesn't actually want to stay!". Because this episode is such a Paradise Syndrome retread, it has many of that episode's same problems, only worse. At least in Paradise we got a sense of what kind of person Miramanee was and the nature of her relationship with Kirk. Her death connects with the audience, and the final scene with Kirk having a moment with her is touching and feels earned. No such character shading happens with Natira; she exists simply to drive the plot forward and provide pathos. It's a shame, since there could have been good pathos here but everything moves so loving fast that the audience barely has a chance for anything to set in before setting up the next set piece. It sucks because I'm a huge fan of TOS. I didn't really grow up with TNG or DS9; I was a weird TOS kid. Watching most of the third season of this show is like watching a loved one deteriorate from Alzheimer's disease. F_Shit_Fitzgerald fucked around with this message at 03:03 on Nov 4, 2021 |
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Nov 4, 2021 02:58
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on one hand, the enemy within was a 50 minute long teledrama that exists primarily to show off a small dog with costume horns and george takei's facile wit. otoh, hey, let's do an exercise about the bronze and silver souls from plato's republic and start a 50+ year tradition of intro philosophy courses and any discussion of personal identity dedicating at least 1/4 of their content to teleporter malfunctions I will unironically praise the economy of acting/special effects that holding the camera on the teleporter controls for, like, half a minute extra does, without expending any resources, totally build the tension and give the air that beaming someone up is a delicate technical process and that every teleportation is on the razors edge of catastrophic accident also lol at the close where the yeoman is really mad that kirk didn't rape her
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Nov 6, 2021 19:13
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The Voice of Labor posted:also lol at the close where the yeoman is really mad that kirk didn't rape her Speaking of that, nothing about the way The Enemy Within treats Rand has aged well at all. From forcing a woman to explain what happened to her while her would-be rapist is standing over her to that """""""joke""""""" from Spock at the end of the episode, it's all horrifying and made even worse by the fact that Grace Lee Whitney actually was assaulted by "an executive" at Star Trek. I'd go so far as to say that the treatment of Rand in that episode is worse in some ways than Code of Honor. e: The "executive" was 100% Roddenberry, wasn't it? F_Shit_Fitzgerald fucked around with this message at 20:12 on Nov 7, 2021 |
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Nov 7, 2021 19:25
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that the yeoman successfully physically fought off her attacker is cool as hell, but that's entirely on her and not the rest of the crew. seems appropriate to bring up mudd's women wherein basically the opposite happens. the part that I really really hate about mudd's women is the twist where they give eve a placebo. her speech sets the moral stakes pretty clearly, is a wife to be beautiful, vain, selfish and useless or is she to be a companion, what is it that the miners want their woman to be? this is well set out and still relevant today, there are no shortages of examples from my work of dude's with filipino wives half their age. but instead of addressing an actual real social question, they turn the situation on its head. the venus drug is a placebo, it is irrelavent what men should want in a woman, what a woman is is entirely a construction of her will. eve could've chosen to be both beautiful and compassionate and could've since birth and so could every other woman in the universe and they choose not to. beyond the misogyny and cold war american nationalism and procapital empirical apologia the thing that just wrecks tos as any kind of source of moral parables is that the whole writing crew seems, like, religiously devoted to ayn rand and scientology and myths of the absolute power of self determination. funny that they couldn't apply that reasoning to themselves and write a better budget or not getting the series cancelled after 2.5 seasons
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Nov 7, 2021 20:08
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F_Shit_Fitzgerald posted:e: The "executive" was 100% Roddenberry, wasn't it? Not to say that it's impossible, nor that Gene Roddenberry's conduct towards women was good, but I don't recall hearing there's ever been any evidence to that effect. I also don't think it was specifically a Star Trek production person, there were other executives at Desilu Studios.
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Nov 7, 2021 22:15
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The Voice of Labor posted:the whole writing crew seems, like, religiously devoted to ayn rand and scientology and myths of the absolute power of self determination i don't often hear people accused of being devotees of both Ayn Rand and Scientology in the same sentence. would you say this is more common than i was aware of, or is this simply a reflection of how utterly perverse the writing crew was?
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Nov 7, 2021 22:27
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https://www.learnreligions.com/ayn-rand-sociopath-who-admired-serial-killer-3975225 this kind of poo poo summarizes a lot of episode endings. that great men are held down by society, or at least can't really be understood or judged by society, is simply bourgeoisie values. I picked rand and hubbard to use as examples because they were popular manifestations of the notion at the time. it would not, in the least, surprise me if they were direct influences on the writers. the only proof I have to offer is how prevalent the sociopath superman is as a star trek archetype
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Nov 8, 2021 00:37
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The Voice of Labor posted:like, the space cops in star trek are terrible at their jobs if their jobs are solving crimes or protecting the citizenship have we ever seen non-starfleet cops in star trek? maybe they've been abolished
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Nov 8, 2021 05:07
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