|
Ngl any player who accepts a nomination to a Bonds-less hall is less of a man in my eyes
|
#
?
Jan 26, 2022 09:04
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 25, 2024 08:10 |
|
|
STAC Goat posted:Oddly the guy I feel bad for is ARod. I never much liked the guy but unless I’m missing some story he doesn’t belong with those assholes. He's pretty much the example of hall of fame voters not really getting better regarding their opinions of PED use over the years. I mean, every year we've seen people talk about how Bonds and Clemens get more support over the years due to people becoming more lenient/evolving in their opinions regarding PEDs, but then ARod is on this year's ballot and only got 34.3% of the vote. That's less than Bonds and Clemens both got on their first years on the ballot ~37% each.
|
|
#
?
Jan 26, 2022 09:05
|
|
|
If this MLB season never happens don't forget it's not the only baseball in the world. https://twitter.com/JCoskrey/status/1486226575687557120 Pretty sure this was a pin in The World Ends With You.
|
|
#
?
Jan 26, 2022 09:49
|
|
|
Gorman Thomas posted:Ngl any player who accepts a nomination to a Bonds-less hall is less of a man in my eyes Publicly refusing for that reason would be so goddamn baller
|
|
#
?
Jan 26, 2022 11:37
|
|
|
SilvergunSuperman posted:Publicly refusing for that reason would be so goddamn baller Watching everybody on Twitter poo poo on the voting has been refreshing. I used to love baseball and watch every chance I could. Then Bonds stopped playing, and even to an idealistic kid, I could tell that I wouldn't see anything like him again. Clemens doesn't have the childhood test of "changed how I watched the sport", but was still super good. If only they were memes then they could have been in the hall. Absolute clown poo poo
|
|
#
?
Jan 26, 2022 13:41
|
|
|
Being nice to the media, aside from Dan Shaughnessy, over the years not only got him some PED forgiveness but everyone either bought or just let go his nonsense story of "mistaken identity" when he got shot If that was A-rod we'd have long deep dives, investigative journalists digging through every piece of his trash for the last 20 years and multiple investigative documentaries about what really happened and why
|
|
#
?
Jan 26, 2022 13:51
|
|
|
Ammat The Ankh posted:If this MLB season never happens don't forget it's not the only baseball in the world. 
|
|
#
?
Jan 26, 2022 14:21
|
|
|
I appreciate Timby summarizing the Biogenesis scandal because I had forgotten how brazen MLB was in how they went about getting the A-Rod suspension. Michael Weiner dying from brain cancer certainly didn’t help but I can’t imagine that they would have made more of a forceful push to support himZ I think A-Rod gets in eventually but certainly not until some of these older writers retire or perish
|
|
#
?
Jan 26, 2022 15:15
|
|
|
Nodoze posted:Being nice to the media, aside from Dan Shaughnessy, over the years not only got him some PED forgiveness but everyone either bought or just let go his nonsense story of "mistaken identity" when he got shot The ways Ortiz being almost murdered is relevant to the HOF discussion:
|
|
#
?
Jan 26, 2022 15:32
|
|
|
Dan Flashes should be in the Hall of Fame.
|
|
#
?
Jan 26, 2022 15:46
|
|
|
NiceGuy posted:The ways Ortiz being almost murdered is relevant to the HOF discussion: I think that was his point.
|
|
#
?
Jan 26, 2022 15:48
|
|
|
NiceGuy posted:The ways Ortiz being almost murdered is relevant to the HOF discussion: It was just an anecdote about the difference in the way the media handles players they like or not
|
|
#
?
Jan 26, 2022 15:55
|
|
|
Its part of this weird thing where Ortiz is at the center of all these double standard arguments but that doesn't actually mean he shouldn't be in the Hall or that its a bad thing he's a nice, affable guy. But everything still gets framed in a vaguely accusatory way. The answer to some people being treated unfairly isn't for everyone to be treated unfairly but equity often feels easier that way than the other. Its still a weird thing to bring up though.
|
|
#
?
Jan 26, 2022 16:03
|
|
|
That's the thing that really brings me down about HoF discourse.
|
|
#
?
Jan 26, 2022 16:06
|
|
|
Ammat The Ankh posted:Pretty sure this was a pin in The World Ends With You. I need you to know that I appreciated this
|
|
#
?
Jan 26, 2022 16:25
|
|
|
Yeah theres an exclusionary tinge to it instead of an inclusionary one. Instead of "X should be in because..." it often becomes "if Y is in then X should be too" and that's a hop, skip, and jump to "If X isn't in Y shouldn't be either." Some of that is basic human nature and fandom. But certainly the HOF/writers essentially encourage it with this kind of voting.
|
|
#
?
Jan 26, 2022 16:26
|
|
|
STAC Goat posted:Its part of this weird thing where Ortiz is at the center of all these double standard arguments but that doesn't actually mean he shouldn't be in the Hall or that its a bad thing he's a nice, affable guy. But everything still gets framed in a vaguely accusatory way. The answer to some people being treated unfairly isn't for everyone to be treated unfairly but equity often feels easier that way than the other. Ortiz did cheat! I believe that he belongs in the hall but i'm also not going to feel too bad for him getting dragged for cheating.
|
|
#
?
Jan 26, 2022 16:26
|
|
|
mcmagic posted:Ortiz did cheat! I believe that he belongs in the hall but i'm also not going to feel too bad for him getting dragged for cheating. But the only people dragging him for cheating are people arguing for other cheaters. And besides that being its own double standard it also becomes this backwards thing where its implied that his "preferred treatment" is some kind of red mark when its really just him being a nice guy.
|
|
#
?
Jan 26, 2022 16:31
|
|
|
I'm not mad about Ortiz getting into the hall. I think he is a Hall of Famer. I'm mad about Ortiz getting in and not all the other players with the same stink of steroids who are much better players than Ortiz.
|
|
#
?
Jan 26, 2022 16:36
|
|
|
Kevlar v2.0 posted:I'm not mad about Ortiz getting into the hall. I think he is a Hall of Famer. I'm mad about Ortiz getting in and not all the other players with the same stink of steroids who are much better players than Ortiz.
|
|
#
?
Jan 26, 2022 16:37
|
|
|
I gotta be honest, I thought Ortiz was already in the Hall the way he was being constantly fellated on every national broadcast all season long last year.
|
|
#
?
Jan 26, 2022 16:40
|
|
|
Inspector_666 posted:That's the thing that really brings me down about HoF discourse. Does it really matter at this point? The 'rules' for the Hall changed a while ago, and it feels like getting in means a whole lot less than it used to. I think the best we can hope for at this point is good ballot discourse. I may be in the minority, but Bobby Abreu has a legitimate argument for candidacy, and I enjoy reading about it; he'll never enter, but it's fun to read, and he still gets due recognition for being a good player. mcmagic posted:Ortiz did cheat! I believe that he belongs in the hall but i'm also not going to feel too bad for him getting dragged for cheating. He took an exploratory test that was supposed to be sealed, that (supposedly) came back positive; wasn't this during a time where PEDs weren't yet banned? PED use during a time when they weren't officially banned resulted in an uneven playing field, which is ethically/morally wrong, but ... I don't even know anymore. Edit: MLB banned them in '91, but didn't test until '03 
Red fucked around with this message at 16:54 on Jan 26, 2022 |
|
#
?
Jan 26, 2022 16:41
|
|
|
Spring Break My Heart posted:There are also players who are better and have no steroid connections who haven't gotten in or even any real consideration. Kenny Lofton deserved better than a one and done
|
|
#
?
Jan 26, 2022 17:06
|
|
|
It starts and ends with those clowns didn't put in Lee Smith for me. Everything after that is just 'well of course they're loving up' because long track record. But they did vote in Goose Gossage, noted rear end in a top hat who can't stand the kids having fun.
|
|
#
?
Jan 26, 2022 17:23
|
|
|
Red posted:Edit: MLB banned them in '91, but didn't test until '03 This is a bit of a misconception. Fay Vincent sent out a seven-page memo in 1991 banning steroids for players and personnel. However, it had already been ruled in the Howe arbitration hearings that drug rules could only be implemented with CBA approval, so he didn't *actually* ban steroids in 1991. At least, from players. The only parties he had authority to impose drug rules on were team personnel. So, if he wanted to drag down Pat Gillick or Davey Johnson to piss in a cup, he had the authority to do that. But not over Bonds or Clemens. Vincent talked about this later on. Here's a segment from an interview with Bernie Miklasz. pre:During McGwire's career (1986 to 2001), Major League Baseball did not have a rule in place that prohibited the use of steroids. Fay Vincent, the commissioner at the time, issued a memo in the early 1990s banning the use of steroids. But as Vincent told me in an interview last week, his memo had no authority over players for the simple reason that, according to the labor agreement between owners and players, changes must be bargained. "I sent it out because I believed it was important to take the position that steroids were dangerous, as were other illegal drugs," Vincent said. "As you know, the union would not bargain with us, would not discuss, would not agree to any form of a coherent drug plan. So my memo really applied to all the people who were not players." Dan
|
|
#
?
Jan 26, 2022 18:22
|
|
|
maffew buildings posted:It starts and ends with those clowns didn't put in Lee Smith for me. Everything after that is just 'well of course they're loving up' because long track record. But they did vote in Goose Gossage, noted rear end in a top hat who can't stand the kids having fun. For me, it was partly Gossage, but also the entire thing with Jim Rice, where a very good player became the basis for a campaign that got him in. Gossage clearly was not elite, to me, but with Rice, it became clear that the Hall was more of a cause for a party. After Rice came Dawson, Morris, Baines, etc. DSzymborski posted:This is a bit of a misconception. Fay Vincent sent out a seven-page memo in 1991 banning steroids for players and personnel. However, it had already been ruled in the Howe arbitration hearings that drug rules could only be implemented with CBA approval, so he didn't *actually* ban steroids in 1991. At least, from players. The only parties he had authority to impose drug rules on were team personnel. So, if he wanted to drag down Pat Gillick or Davey Johnson to piss in a cup, he had the authority to do that. But not over Bonds or Clemens. Ah, okay, that's why I felt confused; I was sure it was banned later than '91, so the Google result for that threw me. Plus, I don't think they formally banned HGH until 2005.
|
|
#
?
Jan 26, 2022 18:53
|
|
|
This off-season blows and my reward for weathering it will be watching Nutting & Cherington trot out another garbage lineup with a $40m payroll
|
|
#
?
Jan 26, 2022 18:59
|
|
|
IMO fixating on when they were officially banned is silly. That's a procedural thing in regard to whether or not a player can be suspended for it. It's not like the dudes taking them in '92 were doing it for different reasons than the dudes taking them now do. You just get into trouble for it now and are more likely to get caught doing it. It's a really cheeseball argument to say something is only morally objectionable because it's against the rules. The whole "I'm voting against THIS guy because he got busted after Selig was tired of the PR hit" rhetoric reads of hair splitting to justify another unstated objective. It wasn't "cheating" before the ban, but the reason it's cheating now is because the league/union agreed that it was violating some aspect of a general fair play social contract. The rule exists to address previously-occurring "bad behavior"; it didn't just materialize because everyone said, "Hmm, there's this new drug that was literally just developed, better get ahead of that." ninja edit: I don't give a poo poo about steroids
|
|
#
?
Jan 26, 2022 19:22
|
|
|
GalacticAcid posted:This off-season blows and my reward for weathering it will be watching Nutting & Cherington trot out another garbage lineup with a $40m payroll At least tickets will still be cheap. I sat 6th row behind home plate (which includes free food and non-alcoholic drinks) for $180. Fuckin awesome, AND we beat the poo poo out of the Phillies.
|
|
#
?
Jan 26, 2022 19:26
|
|
|
I don’t live in Pittsburgh anymore but yeah I’ll def be back to watch a few games assuming the lockout ends lol
|
|
#
?
Jan 26, 2022 19:31
|
|
|
Red posted:Does it really matter at this point? The 'rules' for the Hall changed a while ago, and it feels like getting in means a whole lot less than it used to. It matters in that I am immersed enough in "the baseball world" that I get exposed to a ton of that discourse that brings me down, but I'm more in line with you on my approach to the hall at this point. There's a lot more enjoyment in being happy for somebody like Mussina or Raines getting recognized than there is in being mad about a clearly deserving player not getting in. I guess it's all just a microcosm of the larger world at the end of the day.
|
|
#
?
Jan 26, 2022 19:48
|
|
|
Well Played Mauer posted:IMO fixating on when they were officially banned is silly. That's a procedural thing in regard to whether or not a player can be suspended for it. It's not like the dudes taking them in '92 were doing it for different reasons than the dudes taking them now do. You just get into trouble for it now and are more likely to get caught doing it. It's a really cheeseball argument to say something is only morally objectionable because it's against the rules. Agreed 100%; I'm not fixating on 'did he or didn't he' so much as this is the bed MLB made, and somehow their deserved blame for inaction got passed on to the players. They created the incentive to use PEDs, and did nothing to actually protect players from drug abuse (PED or coke/etc.), while having zero actual guidelines in place. I do wish Barry and other people would talk about what they did, because it might actually save someone's career (or life, if they're buying something unsafe), and would do more to level the playing field. We'll never really fully know who was on what, and how many players; it almost seems like, in retrospect, you were a moron if you didn't juice if you knew everybody else did. Jason Giambi will never get a plaque, but he made almost $134 million over his career. I think he'll be okay. Voting for the HoF at this point, if you're a writer, is basically an exercise in ethics, if you're choosing to share your reasoning.
|
|
#
?
Jan 26, 2022 20:52
|
|
|
it's actually more difficult to get into the hall than ever, even not considering the generational issue of the PEDs. people only remember the best players from previous eras.
|
|
#
?
Jan 26, 2022 20:52
|
|
|
I get the Veteran's committee can do whatever they want but I still think it's dumb they put Jack Morris in. May as well put Jamie Moyer in while you're at it.
|
|
#
?
Jan 26, 2022 22:01
|
|
|
seiferguy posted:I get the Veteran's committee can do whatever they want but I still think it's dumb they put Jack Morris in. May as well put Jamie Moyer in while you're at it. Meanwhile, Dick Allen still can’t get in
|
|
#
?
Jan 26, 2022 22:57
|
|
|
seiferguy posted:I get the Veteran's committee can do whatever they want but I still think it's dumb they put Jack Morris in. May as well put Jamie Moyer in while you're at it. They absolutely should.
|
|
#
?
Jan 26, 2022 23:26
|
|
|
people talked about guys associated with one fanbase being at an advantage, but though Clemens has a case, i think the absolute king of the Hall of No Fans is Kevin Brown
|
|
#
?
Jan 26, 2022 23:37
|
|
|
Feels Villeneuve posted:people talked about guys associated with one fanbase being at an advantage, but though Clemens has a case, i think the absolute king of the Hall of No Fans is Kevin Brown Bill James just wrote an article about this and found a significant effect: https://www.billjamesonline.com/vagabonds_and_homebodies/ But... he didn't account for era? And it's well known that your chances of being a HoFer are much higher if you played in earlier eras, so that seems like an obvious bias. They talked about this on Effectively Wild, apparently someone else accounted for era and a couple other things and found that there's definitely an advantage, just nowhere near what James found.
|
|
#
?
Jan 27, 2022 00:25
|
|
|
Nodoze posted:Being nice to the media, aside from Dan Shaughnessy, over the years not only got him some PED forgiveness but everyone either bought or just let go his nonsense story of "mistaken identity" when he got shot
|
|
#
?
Jan 27, 2022 00:29
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 25, 2024 08:10 |
|
|
seiferguy posted:I get the Veteran's committee can do whatever they want but I still think it's dumb they put Jack Morris in. May as well put Jamie Moyer in while you're at it. Yes do this unironically https://youtu.be/3aE5BvyqiAU
|
|
#
?
Jan 27, 2022 01:05
|
|
