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Sapozhnik posted:if Electron Hellworld is something that we simply must have then at least standardize it and make it part of the operating system. Make a WebPackage and WebFFI standard or some poo poo so I don't have ten different 300MB copies of Chrome kicking around. The reason that electron has been more successful is that it provides a consistent experience whereas if you just use webviews, you have to deal with inconsistencies between different platforms again. However, since webviews are using evergreen browsers now, this may be more practical than in the past when using webviews meant dealing with completely ancient browser engines, so maybe more people will use this approach in the future. mystes fucked around with this message at 14:52 on Oct 3, 2022 |
# ? Oct 3, 2022 14:49 |
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# ? Mar 29, 2024 07:43 |
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you can't have a single electron runtime on the system because then electron would be like java and all the javascript programmers have spent their entire careers being extremely smug about not being like java
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# ? Oct 3, 2022 15:05 |
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carry on then posted:you can't have a single electron runtime on the system because then electron would be like java and all the javascript programmers have spent their entire careers being extremely smug about not being like java
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# ? Oct 3, 2022 15:07 |
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as long as vendors actually make it *easy* to do i'd expect some convergence to happen over time pretty naturally. e.g. if microsoft dog-foods hard enough that all of their currently electron things are on one of the edge streams it'll might start looking like *less* hassle to just go along with that. and for e.g. linux it would then be pretty easy to package up the same rendering engine and be entirely compatible. the "as long as" is doing a lot of work there though. microsoft will probably create another half-dozen alternatives and then use all of them at once, and even if not no linux project will deign packaging up a compatible runtime (as the nerd reporting of it would be that ubuntu now ships with edge). except maybe if a game uses it and then wine ships it. then everything can just target wine.
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# ? Oct 3, 2022 15:16 |
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yes, which is where standardization comes in. you need a standard manifest for launching a frameless webview displaying some local url and a standard ffi for calling out to an automatically-selected native code bundle for the currently executing platform from javascript. if developers have to write separate boilerplate main() startup code for every platform then they're not going to bother and will just continue using electron instead. nodejs NAPI is pretty nice as FFIs go, maybe they should standardize that. i think mozilla came up with some sort of web bundle and web manifest standard a while back as well.
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# ? Oct 3, 2022 15:20 |
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Sapozhnik posted:yes, which is where standardization comes in. you need a standard manifest for launching a frameless webview displaying some local url and a standard ffi for calling out to an automatically-selected native code bundle for the currently executing platform from javascript. if developers have to write separate boilerplate main() startup code for every platform then they're not going to bother and will just continue using electron instead. Theoretically you could try doing something with webassembly (and I'm sure people will) but you're never going to get everyone to agree on one standard The browser companies aren't going to be interested in anything that involves native code. Theoretically you can already have an "app" experience using PWAs as long as there's no native code involved. mystes fucked around with this message at 17:44 on Oct 3, 2022 |
# ? Oct 3, 2022 17:41 |
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Cybernetic Vermin posted:this is btw why if you're on windows 11 you likely have two incompatible versions of teams installed. one is the one you use and the other is the non-electron one. isnt that just the user-mode installed one and the enterprise "machine-wide" installed one, both of which are identical otherwise?
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# ? Oct 3, 2022 17:46 |
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nodejs and electron have exactly that though, there's NodeJS' unstable C++ API and there's the new NAPI thing. Java has JNI and a few other modern equivalents. It's the same FFI on every platform though which is the important thing.
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# ? Oct 3, 2022 17:49 |
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Sapozhnik posted:nodejs and electron have exactly that though, there's NodeJS' unstable C++ API and there's the new NAPI thing. Java has JNI and a few other modern equivalents. It's the same FFI on every platform though which is the important thing.
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# ? Oct 3, 2022 17:55 |
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Pile Of Garbage posted:isnt that just the user-mode installed one and the enterprise "machine-wide" installed one, both of which are identical otherwise? i *believe* the "machine-wide" one is indeed an edge evergreen trial run. i think both the way it is installed and the weird integrations it has with the garbage start menu is part of the api set that "platform" offers. supposedly teams as such is a single code-base, so they shouldn't differ heavily otherwise.
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# ? Oct 3, 2022 17:59 |
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Cybernetic Vermin posted:i *believe* the "machine-wide" one is indeed an edge evergreen trial run. i think both the way it is installed and the weird integrations it has with the garbage start menu is part of the api set that "platform" offers. supposedly teams as such is a single code-base, so they shouldn't differ heavily otherwise. i doubt that the machine-wide installed version is being used as a trial-run for anything as that is the specific distribution which microsoft recommends for enterprises that want to roll-out teams to their fleet via SCCM/MECM or something else. given how averse enterprises are to change it's unlikely microsoft would recommend a package that was secretly a beta-channel test mode or some poo poo. HOWEVER the thing is that it really doesn't matter how teams is installed as the application updates itself internally. at least it does some electron update thing and then tells you to "reload the app" to finish updating. all of which im certain is just downloading new js and assets. another thing worth mentioning is that microsoft electron apps in general still don't have proper integration with the windows UI experience. for example in win10/11 if you hover the mouse cursor over the full-screen button of either teams or vs code the little screen snapping thingo doesn't appear. this is understandable as they're not proper windows apps.
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# ? Oct 3, 2022 18:09 |
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i investigated long enough to figure out that; 1) i am correct as far as one of the two indeed being on the edge thing; 2) i am not sure which either of us are talking about; and; 3) i am wasting my life
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# ? Oct 3, 2022 18:18 |
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mystes posted:I have trouble imagining there's ever going to be a single cross platform standard for bundling native code running an http server with a webview because packaging that in a way that wasn't language/platform specific would be pretty hard PWAs are a plague. This whole thing is a disaster because javascript is trash. no solution that involves javascript will ever be good. Even if you could do the impossible and convince every os dev to use a single browser runtime for all webviews, its still going to be a horrible user experience. Pile Of Garbage posted:isnt that just the user-mode installed one and the enterprise "machine-wide" installed one, both of which are identical otherwise? "machine wide" teams is just the installer being placed in program files that runs and installs teams into the user's profile at first login. From there it is effectively the same teams client everyone uses. There are no shared binaries across users, its just the installer being pre-cached. However, there is also a totally different version of teams (2.0) for windows 11 but idk what the state of it is or where it lives. wrt webview2 itself, you can use the "evergreen" version which is basically a redistributable runtime (think directx, vc++) OR you can ship a "fixed" version of the entire package of binaries with your application. The tradeoff is automatic updating w/ the evergreen version vs guaranteed compatibility with the fixed version. IIRC there was also an early version of webview2 where instead of the evergreen runtime you would use the runtime from the currently installed version of Edge. This was abandoned because it meant the user had to have edge installed for your app to work. It also might have just been a beta thing to try out webview2 while the evergreen package was being designed and built. There are some production apps out there that use it tho lol for teams 2.0 idk which version of the edge runtime they're using. The big problem with evergreen is if you have a critical app that millions are using, are you gonna trust that the Edge team (and good upstream) wont break it with an update? Probably not. You're probably just gonna use the fixed version.
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# ? Oct 3, 2022 18:34 |
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Shaggar posted:IIRC there was also an early version of webview2 where instead of the evergreen runtime you would use the runtime from the currently installed version of Edge. This was abandoned because it meant the user had to have edge installed for your app to work. It also might have just been a beta thing to try out webview2 while the evergreen package was being designed and built. There are some production apps out there that use it tho lol I kind of assumed this was how webview2 worked so I'm a bit surprised that it isn't.
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# ? Oct 3, 2022 19:34 |
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Edge is entirely optional so you'll run into machines that dont have it installed because it was never installed in the first place or it was uninstalled by a linux grognard in favor of adware/failfox or maybe its just blocked by GPO because your business. Realistically this probably is a non-issue, but its something you have to deal with. A shared redistributable runtime ("evergreen") or a fixed runtime shipped with the application are both easy fixes. The original webview uses MSHTML which is what IE and windows use internally for a ton of stuff. Even if you remove IE, MSHTML still exists so its safe to use webview on pretty much any windows with the caveat that its basically IE. I think a better question is why they didnt ship evergreen as basically MSHTML2 with all supported versions of windows so the evergreen redist package was never a concern.
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# ? Oct 3, 2022 19:48 |
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thank you cybernetic vermin and shaggar, now i know more about teams. also:Cybernetic Vermin posted:3) i am wasting my life
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# ? Oct 3, 2022 19:52 |
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also im pretty sure uninstalling IE12 is a CIS recommendation so on windows server at least you should leave edge installed and if you still dont want it then install server core.
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# ? Oct 3, 2022 19:57 |
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edge is real good
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# ? Oct 3, 2022 20:37 |
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it’s perfectly adequate
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# ? Oct 3, 2022 22:20 |
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Silver Alicorn posted:it’s perfectly adequate
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# ? Oct 3, 2022 22:29 |
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good: ms says they’re finally doing tabbed explorer bad: only in win 11
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# ? Oct 6, 2022 21:46 |
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Best Bi Geek Squid posted:good: ms says they’re finally doing tabbed explorer this post made me launch explorer and note that i apparently have that?! i absolutely do not care, as the only state an explorer instance keeps is a single path, and it seems overcomplicated to have tabs for that.
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# ? Oct 6, 2022 21:55 |
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electron is fine you nerds
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# ? Oct 6, 2022 21:55 |
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e: nah, carry on.
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# ? Oct 6, 2022 21:56 |
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Gentle Autist posted:electron is fine you nerds its bad, op
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# ? Oct 7, 2022 06:33 |
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Pile Of Garbage posted:trip report: very disappointed, the update installed fairly seamlessly and didn't break anything. looks the same as before. lol, I made that here, have a higher quality copy
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# ? Oct 8, 2022 18:33 |
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lmao
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# ? Oct 10, 2022 02:57 |
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nice! e: lol it looks so good on my ultra-wide at work Pile Of Garbage fucked around with this message at 04:58 on Oct 10, 2022 |
# ? Oct 10, 2022 04:51 |
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so uhh I had to restart 3 times to apply the update
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# ? Oct 11, 2022 09:29 |
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lmao imagine installing an update
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# ? Oct 11, 2022 10:15 |
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who remembers my thread where I live posted NOT even restarting my computer for 100 days?
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# ? Oct 11, 2022 10:16 |
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i do, didn't the computer get desperate and start making more annoying update prompts or something?
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# ? Oct 11, 2022 16:58 |
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echinopsis posted:who remembers my thread where I live posted NOT even restarting my computer for 100 days? whats uptime? nm what's uptime w/ u?
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# ? Oct 11, 2022 17:06 |
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a common thing that im seeing in enterprise and government is forefront TMG (EoL 2009) instances running on windows server 2003 with >800 days uptime. good poo poo
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# ? Oct 11, 2022 21:13 |
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Agile Vector posted:i do, didn't the computer get desperate and start making more annoying update prompts or something? initially it was, until I wrangled enough settings for it to leave me to compute in peace
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# ? Oct 11, 2022 22:46 |
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Pile Of Garbage posted:a common thing that im seeing in enterprise and government is forefront TMG (EoL 2009) instances running on windows server 2003 with >800 days uptime. good poo poo this is the kind of stability our society needs
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# ? Oct 11, 2022 22:47 |
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our work laptops pop up a regular message nagging us to restart if we don't do it every day also all browser tabs get closed on restart via policy and changing it prevents from connecting to the VPN e: but then again we're on some ancient Win10 LTS version on them as well Private Speech fucked around with this message at 10:24 on Oct 12, 2022 |
# ? Oct 12, 2022 10:19 |
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there are things you can turn off in the registry to prevent windows from taking your freedom away from you it’s harder than ever to force windows to run without a password (so a restart takes it back to desktop) but it’s possible
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# ? Oct 12, 2022 10:46 |
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ah yes the registry, famously being very open to changes by regular users and not locked down by admins at all
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# ? Oct 12, 2022 13:23 |
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# ? Mar 29, 2024 07:43 |
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work IT disabled sleep mode so I have to turn my computer off like 2x / day RIP
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# ? Oct 12, 2022 16:06 |