Qat_ar Qomplaint_s: The Elon Musk of Countries

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vyelkin: Jan 2, 2011

Al-Bayt Stadium in Al Khor City, Qatar, 2019

I chose the Drugs tag because even residual drug possession like having a tiny bit of weed on the bottom of your shoe is one of the many things that can get you imprisoned, deported, or executed.

Anyway, here is the Qatar Qomplaints Qontainment Qrew, or QQQQ, or :qq:

, your one stop shop for talking about all the horrible stuff going on at the 2022 World Cup in Qatar. We're now one year away from the world's first-ever winter World Cup, which is already terrible in its own way, but to add insult to injury it is being held in a tiny theocratic dictatorship in the middle of the desert with no footballing history that blatantly won the bid through enormous bribery and lies about things like artificial clouds and carbon-neutral open-stadium air conditioning and shipping the stadiums to poor countries after the World Cup ends, to the point that all the people in charge of FIFA at the time have since been arrested, but nevertheless the Qatar World Cup rolls on.

Players have expressed hesitation about going or contemplated doing some kind of human rights protest, fans have worried they might die in the heat (hence the shift to holding it in November) or be arrested or executed for being LGBT or drinking alcohol, building the infrastructure for a World Cup in a tiny desert with no stadiums is estimated to have cost up to 6,500 migrant workers their lives, many of them working in slave-labour conditions with their passports confiscated so they can't go home to escape imminent death. Here's a passage from a recent CNN report on it:

quote:

Since 2010, migrant workers have faced delayed or unpaid wages, forced labor, long hours in hot weather, employer intimidation and an inability to leave their jobs because of the country's sponsorship system, human rights organizations have found.

Barun Ghimire is a human rights lawyer based in Kathmandu, whose Nepal work primarily focuses on the exploitation of Nepalese migrants working abroad.

Labor migration from Nepal is deeply concentrated in Gulf countries, Qatar encompassing the highest percentage in 2018 and 2019. And in Qatar, Nepalis are the second largest ethnic group of migrant workers, after Indians.

Ghimire told CNN the plight of Nepalese labor workers is "particularly grievous in the Gulf."

He has been documenting migrant worker abuse in Qatar long before it won the rights to host the World Cup. But in the 10 years since, he says he has received a "significantly high chunk" of complaints from Nepalese workers living there.

"Every other day, you would hear a story."

Most migrant workers, he added, come from poverty, and aren't well educated, making them vulnerable and easy targets for exploitation.

Ghimire recounts setting up crowdfunding campaigns to help workers fly back to Nepal, because they never received their salaries.

"Migrant workers from the poorest of countries go to Qatar seeking employment," he said. "But when they get there, there's this tragic event that happens that's like the case of blood diamonds. The Qatar World Cup is really the bloody cup -- the blood of migrant workers."

https://www.cnn.com/2021/07/09/football/qatar-world-cup-2022-workers-rights-spt-intl/index.html

But despite all this, the Qatar World Cup rolls on.

That all said, the big rival for Qatar's bid was the United States, which would have subjected us to 12 years of discussion about the capacity of NFL stadiums, so it's impossible to say if Qatar's bribery and atrocious human rights record was bad or not.

Anyway, the point of this thread is to try and bring together all the discussion about how horrible the Qatar World Cup is so that it doesn't inevitably take over every other thread and prevent us from also talking about the football when the time comes.

# ¿ Nov 25, 2021 15:37

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# ¿ Apr 19, 2024 10:41

vyelkin: Jan 2, 2011

the sex ghost posted:

Just remembered the artificial clouds lmao

Qatar 2022 brought to you by Dahir Insaat

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0idC5I7aDnI

# ¿ Nov 25, 2021 16:00

vyelkin: Jan 2, 2011

Mickolution posted:

They had a sort of aircon system in one of the stadiums for some athletics there (world championships, maybe?) and apparently it worked ok for that, but I very much doubt they would do any good for people running around on the grass rather than the track.

I think we'll see some protests from players/teams and a lot of discussion in the run up to and during the tournament, but I don't think it'll really do anything. The tournament will happen and afterwards, most will forget all about it. Maybe I'm being over cynical, but that's how it's worked for any other major sporting events held in questionable environments. The world will be shown a total lie about life in the country during those 4 weeks and then we'll move on.

On a less serious note, Jonathan Wilson said on FW recently that it's already impossible to find accommodation in Doha, because most stadiums are accessible from there. So it will be interesting to see how that plays out. They were talking about bringing in some cruise ships to accommodate people, but I fail to see how that's going to make a dent in the problem. So many fans in such a small area could be spicy, too.

It's worth noting that Russia estimated they had close to 3 million foreign tourists during the World Cup in 2018: https://tass.com/sport/1012057

Qatar is hoping to attract 1.2 million: https://www.firstpost.com/sports/fifa-world-cup-2022-qatar-hopes-to-attract-1-2-million-visitors-for-showpiece-event-10080461.html

Qatar's entire population is 2.8 million, so if they attracted as many tourists as Russia did then there would be enormous pressure on the country's ability to house people. A few cruise ships aren't going to make a dent in that.

# ¿ Nov 25, 2021 16:22

vyelkin: Jan 2, 2011

Flayer posted:

Well obviously but you have to wonder what on earth this particular stunt achieved in that regard. Was it to make MBS grumpy for a day? Qatars international prestige has surely been sullied by this whole debacle.

MBS wasn't even on the scene when Qatar won the World Cup back in 2010. Independent of transient politics like who's in charge of your neighbour, hosting events like the World Cup is entirely just a way to build prestige for elites in authoritarian states with functionally limitless income and no obligation to use that money to better the lives of those beneath them.

I think they did not realize how much backlash there would be to the obvious bribery and corruption, and considering how FIFA had operated in the years and decades leading up to the bidding it doesn't surprise me that they thought they would get away with it.

# ¿ Nov 25, 2021 18:06

vyelkin: Jan 2, 2011

Solkanar512 posted:

Seattle is already putting in a bid for 2026. It�s part of a joint Canada/Mexico/US bid.

I just want to know how you do that without violating the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act.

You give them a nice box of domestic wine as a courtesy and then make a surprised face when your bid loses to the guys who slipped an envelope of cash under the hotel door.

# ¿ Nov 30, 2021 14:34

vyelkin: Jan 2, 2011

the sex ghost posted:

If Canada manage to qualify and don't lose every game I feel like they're all getting prem deals. Leeds are still in for Aaronson provided they don't get relegated and I feel like a Canadian will be the cool new accessory for 2023

this is correct :cool:

# ¿ Mar 23, 2022 14:27

vyelkin: Jan 2, 2011

lmao Qatar is a mess

# ¿ Sep 27, 2022 13:41

vyelkin: Jan 2, 2011

TheRat posted:

https://www.nrk.no/sport/everyone-going-to-the-world-cup-must-have-this-app---experts-are-now-sounding-the-alarm-1.16139267

Well this seems loving insane

lmao what's a World Cup but a chance to get spyware onto several millions people's phones?

# ¿ Oct 14, 2022 16:45

vyelkin: Jan 2, 2011

The foreign secretary has pinpointed the problem with Qatar's anti-LGBTQ laws: it's those entitled gay fans who aren't showing enough respect for other people's culture!

quote:

Cleverly said: �I have spoken to the Qatari authorities in the past about gay football fans going to watch the World Cup and how they will treat our fans and international fans. They want to make sure that football fans are safe, secure and enjoy themselves. And they know that that means they are going to have to make some compromises in terms of what is an Islamic country with a very different set of cultural norms to our own.

�One of the things I would say for football fans is, you know, please do be respectful of the host nation. They are trying to ensure that people can be themselves and enjoy the football, and I think with a little bit of flex and compromise at both ends, it can be a safe, secure and exciting World Cup.�

From here: https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/oct/26/uk-minister-criticised-over-call-for-gay-world-cup-fans-to-show-respect-in-qatar

# ¿ Oct 26, 2022 12:34

vyelkin: Jan 2, 2011

Concerned about football fans getting rowdy? Why not try shoving 40,000 of them into a park and telling them it's the only place in the entire country where they're allowed to drink! What could go wrong?

# ¿ Nov 2, 2022 11:33

vyelkin: Jan 2, 2011

smh, do better please, according to the Qatari government criticizing that sort of thing only happens due to anti-Arab racism

# ¿ Nov 3, 2022 16:19

vyelkin: Jan 2, 2011

FIFA you have the power to do at least one thing and that is choose where to host the World Cup. That is a power you have in global issues, and you chose to host it in Qatar so deal with it. If you choose to host it in a country like Qatar, you should in fact have to answer for issues there.

# ¿ Nov 3, 2022 23:55

vyelkin: Jan 2, 2011

V. Illych L. posted:

at least in russia, south africa and brazil it's possible to play football outdoors and you don't have to rejigger every european league in unprecedented ways to get it to "work". south africa in particular, for all its faults, was the first world cup in africa and helped give african football fans a somewhat improved standing in the world.

qatar is not a country where it makes any kind of sense to have a major football championship, even if one chooses to ignore the place being a hideously corrupt and reactionary shithole that gets off on hurting people. just in considering the simple health of the sport worldwide, this is *stupid*. it starts out as an indefensible decision and only gets worse from there. i do not think it's hypocritical to think that this is a step too far, imo.

I agree with this.

For all their faults those are at least big nations where they play football, and it was conceivable that they could win a hosting gig fair and square even though we all know they didn't. From a footballing standpoint and a tournament organization standpoint they can be justified, even if from a human rights perspective it can be harder to do so. Qatar doesn't check any of those boxes. From a footballing perspective it was probably the worst bid proposal in the history of World Cup bidding, for the nation least suitable to host a World Cup, and on top of that right from the start there were enormous glaring human rights concerns that have all depressingly come true over the last twelve years. From the day the winning bid was announced everyone knew it was unacceptable, to the point that it was the catalyst for enormous corruption investigations that got all the people responsible thrown in prison and/or banned from football for life. And now the people who replaced them are telling us all to shut up and forget about it and ignore the thousands of deaths and horrible crimes and just watch the football. It was indefensible then and it's unacceptable now.

# ¿ Nov 4, 2022 14:39

vyelkin: Jan 2, 2011

pseudodragon posted:

Especially the ones from smaller nations/ones that don't qualify all the time. Like a French or Brazilian star can at least think as long as they keep in shape, they'll have 2026 as a goal. For players from countries like Wales, it's a once in a lifetime opportunity. Or one they never even thought would happen.

Like this is probably how most of the guys from a lot of lower tier teams feel and then losing out through no fault of their own would be heartbreaking.

https://twitter.com/timandfriends/status/1508205330345381889?s=20&t=xHbuhHwHSZJWeLzpSm403A

First time in my life that Canada have qualified for a World Cup and it had to be this one

# ¿ Nov 4, 2022 16:05

vyelkin: Jan 2, 2011

truly a mockery of a World Cup in every possible way

# ¿ Nov 8, 2022 13:42

vyelkin: Jan 2, 2011

These days, if you say you're English, you get arrested and thrown in a England Fans - Qatar shirt

# ¿ Nov 14, 2022 18:08

vyelkin: Jan 2, 2011

NinpoEspiritoSanto posted:

Hugo Lloris is right. It shouldn't be on the players to shoulder the responsibility for this World Cup. It's a professional event for them that they might play in 4 or 5 of max in their career, for a lot of them they're lucky they get this 1. The last time Wales made it was 1958. If you want to get mad at people, start with the ex pros that are going there for pundit money or to put a star face on the tournament in exchange for sacks of cash, the national football associations that decided to take part anyway, the sponsors, kit manufacturers and obviously FIFA for this nakedly blatant product of utter corruption.

I don't give a poo poo that Lisandro Martinez has gone off to play for Brazil at an international tournament. I do give a poo poo that former players like Gary Neville that have waxed lyrical on various political points and the Glazer ownership is not only doing punditry in Qatar, but doing it for Bein Sports. For those not in the know, Bein Sports is owned by Qatar and Neville's business puts him shoulder to shoulder with colleagues such as sacked from Sky in misogynistic disgrace Andy Gray and Richard Keys.

I don't care Maguire's massive head is apparently worth its weight in gold to Gareth "Cowardly Lion" Southgate, I do care that David Beckham is getting wheelbarrows full of cash he doesn't need to to be an ambassador for the tournament.

The players are victims of this tournament not the ones we should be expecting to do something about it now that people in far better positions have failed/not bothered to do so. 10 years ago the national FAs should have turned around and said "gently caress you we're not going if you hold it there" and stood firm. There was little appetite for that though because noted oval office and Qatar shill Platini was head of UEFA at the time and you'd need the big UEFA countries and South Americans to really hold FIFA's feet to the fire.

I'm from a country for which this World Cup is the first time we've qualified in my lifetime, and I think you're spot on. I don't blame any of the Canadian players for going or for playing their hearts out, hopefully not literally, though I do hope that they make some kind of political statement while doing so. For some of them (Atiba Hutchinson is like 50 years old) this is the culmination of an entire lifetime of work and most likely their only chance to ever play in a World Cup. But yeah, what's Gary Neville's excuse? What's David Beckham's excuse? poo poo, what's Leo Messi's excuse for being a Qatar ambassador instead of just a regular player for Argentina?

Lloris is right that it isn't the players' fault and at this point there's nothing they can do about it except some protests that will, in the end, be meaningless gestures. The fix was in 12 years ago. But I definitely do draw a line between people who are going to go play in a World Cup for sporting reasons and multimillionaires who see it as an opportunity to make some extra cash by sportswashing the slaveowning dictatorship.

# ¿ Nov 15, 2022 14:24

vyelkin: Jan 2, 2011

Compared to that my university dorm room was a luxury suite.

# ¿ Nov 15, 2022 20:29

vyelkin: Jan 2, 2011

As a followup to the earlier discussion about pundits and retired players having no excuse for going to Qatar, even Philipp "The Super League is the future of football" Lahm says Qatar is poo poo and he won't go.

# ¿ Nov 15, 2022 20:56

vyelkin: Jan 2, 2011

quote:

Gay Qataris physically abused then recruited as agents, campaigner says

Gay Qataris have been promised safety from physical torture in exchange for helping the authorities to track down other LGBTQ+ people in the country, a prominent Qatari doctor and gay rights campaigner has told the Guardian.

Dr Nasser Mohamed, who lives in the US but retains contact with hundreds of gay Qataris, said that some secret networks had been compromised after arrests by Qatar�s preventive security department.

�A lot [of gay Qataris] don�t know about each other,� Mohamed said. �And it�s safer that way because when the law enforcement finds one person, they actively try to find their entire network. But some of the people who were captured and physically abused were then recruited as agents.

�Now there are agents in the gay community that were promised safety from physical torture in exchange for working for the preventive security department and helping them find groups of LGBTQ+ people.�

Mohamed told the Guardian that foreign gay fans in Qatar would not be persecuted while at the World Cup finals tournament. However, he warned that local LGBTQ+ supporters faced a very different reality. �What is it like to be an LGBT Qatari? You live in fear, you live in the shadows, you�re actively persecuted. You�re subjected to state-sponsored physical and mental abuse. It�s dangerous to be an LGBT person in Qatar.�

Last month Human Rights Watch reported that Qatar�s preventive security department forces had arbitrarily arrested lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender people and subjected them to ill‑treatment in detention. HRW also documented six cases of severe and repeated beatings and five cases of sexual harassment in police custody between 2019 and 2022.

Rasha Younes, a senior researcher with HRW, told the Guardian that some cases were more striking than most. �There was one story of a transgender woman who was detained in solitary confinement for two months underground, lost her job as a result of being detained and was not able to give notice to her employer that she was gone,� she said. �They shaved her 17-inch long hair in detention, severely beat her until she bled, and denied her medical care.�

HRW is calling for the Qatari authorities to repeal article 285 and all other laws that criminalise consensual sexual relations outside of marriage and introduce legislation that protects against discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation and gender identity, online and offline. It also wants freedom of expression and nondiscrimination based on sexual orientation and gender identity to be guaranteed, permanently, for all residents of Qatar.

Younes also criticised Fifa for failing to do more. �We�ve been engaging with Fifa with other sports organisations and LGBT rights activists for years and they have not been paying attention,� she said. �They have not been at all responsive or listen to the accounts that we have shared. Now that we have all this evidence, it�s really time for Fifa to stop having its fingers in its ears and actually listen.�

Fifa said it was committed to inclusivity and that it was �confident that all necessary measures will be in place for LGBTIQ+ fans and allies to enjoy the tournament in a welcoming and safe environment, just as for everyone else�.

In a statement, Qatar�s Supreme Committee for Delivery & Legacy promised the World Cup would be free of any discrimination. �The SC is committed to delivering an inclusive and discrimination-free Fifa World Cup experience that is welcoming, safe and accessible to all participants, attendees and communities in Qatar and around the world,� it said.

�Everyone is welcome in Qatar, but we are a conservative country and any public display of affection, regardless of orientation, is frowned upon. We simply ask for people to respect our culture.

�More than 600 international and regional sporting events have been held in Qatar since we were awarded the rights to host the tournament, welcoming thousands of fans from every corner of the world. While the tournament is the biggest event yet, there has never been an issue and every event has been delivered safely.�

Qatar�s government has also been invited to comment on the claims made by Mohammed and HRW. A Qatari official has said previously that HRW�s allegations �contain information that is categorically and unequivocally false�, without specifying.

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2022/nov/15/gay-qataris-physically-abused-then-recruited-as-agents-campaigner-says

This is how the Stasi used to track down dissidents.

# ¿ Nov 16, 2022 00:27

vyelkin: Jan 2, 2011

harperdc posted:

Top management can say one thing, but the people on the ground apparently haven�t changed how they operate normally. I�m guessing that gets changed right quick, but we�ll see.

This is my impression as well. Stuff like this tweet:

psyer posted:

https://twitter.com/GrantWahl/status/1592792367966588928

indicates that the top brass want to put on a smiling face to the world, even if "Spectators taking clothes off to reveal intimate body parts may be asked to put the clothing back on" is a crime against English culture. But there's only so much you can do to change low-level routines overnight. If the policemen and security guards and other low-level authorities are used to smashing journalists' cameras and arresting people and have spent the last twelve years being trained how to effectively cover up all the crimes being committed in Qatar, there are guaranteed to be some of them who don't get the memo from the top that now they're supposed to be nice and welcoming.

# ¿ Nov 16, 2022 14:47

vyelkin: Jan 2, 2011

KazigluBey posted:

Saw this thread in one of the replies, https://twitter.com/marcowenjones/status/1581212669637369858 some stats buff uni prof saying the 6500 number is bunk? Any idea on if this is just sponsored interference or just someone going off because it's a topic close to their area of specialty?

It's bullshit for a few reasons.

1) that guy accurately points out that the Guardian article about 6,500 migrant workers dying in Qatar never claims they all died specifically on World Cup construction sites, as if that somehow matters, but then blames the Guardian for other people making that claim.

2) he acts as if migrant workers just drop dead constantly and really we shouldn't be bothered by that while also implying that the real death figure related to the World Cup is a tiny fraction of that, by comparing it to if a news organization published an article "100k dead as Covid rampages through UK" but only 0.1% of the deaths were from Covid (nice minimization of Covid death rates thrown in there too, btw)

3) the point, so far as I understand it, has never been to claim that every single migrant worker death or every single exploited migrant worker is working on World Cup stadiums. The point is that Qatar is a brutally exploitative place for migrant workers where thousands of them die due to some combination of bad working conditions, bad living conditions, harsh environmental conditions in the desert, and so on. That tweet thread implies that if a 27-year-old dies in their sleep after spending a year working 14-hour days in the desert, that doesn't count as a work-related death just because they didn't die falling off a crane.

4) he never mentions the fact that the Guardian investigation repeatedly says "this is likely to be an underestimate because Qatar tries their best to cover up deaths", instead treating it as if 6500 deaths over a decade is the maximum number, probably overstated anyway, and no big deal because migrant workers die over the course of a decade and that's just a fact of life.

5) that guy is a prof at Hamad Bin Khalifa University in Qatar, so he directly benefits from sportswashing the country that employs him.

Either he's a piece of poo poo who's intentionally misleading people, or he's so far up his own rear end about how the country that treats him well as a white well-educated foreigner must also treat other people well that he's managed to tie himself in knots to convince himself nothing is wrong, but either way his analysis is dogshit.

# ¿ Nov 16, 2022 16:30

vyelkin: Jan 2, 2011

Teach posted:

It's a good headline, but (thanks, Wikipedia!) in 2017 Qatar's population was 2.6million, with only 300,000 Qataris. The rest are ex-pats, and the biggest group of that number is south Asians - people from India, Pakistan, Nepal, Sri Lanka.

That's 2.3 million people working in Qatar as economic migrants. And I was one of them for twenty years.

The UK overall death rate is nearly 1% p.a, so 9.something deaths per 1000 people per year. There will be a lot of expats dying in Qatar. I was a teacher there for two decades and my school lost three teachers. That's not down to the world cup.

Yes, the working conditions for most expats are terrible, yes they're badly paid and treated as disposable. But it would be weird if there weren't any ex-pat deaths.

(Edit - I know that the ex-pat communities in Qatar don't map one to one with the populations at home - they're overwhelmingly male, for example) but you see what I mean.)

The UK death rate may be nearly 1% p.a., but if you account for the demographic that makes up migrant labourers (say, men in their 20s and 30s) it would be much, much lower. You can't generalize from death rates including 80-year-olds dying of cancer to say that 20-year-olds dropping dead after 14-hour days on desert construction sites is normal.

# ¿ Nov 16, 2022 16:32

vyelkin: Jan 2, 2011

Teach posted:

Sure, but then be fair - what's the UK annual death rate for construction workers? (I don't know. This might reflect worse on Qatar.)

Many of them are from the poorest parts of their home countries. They would have better health care in Qatar, many of them, than at home.

Just in the interests of balance. I think it's a mistake that Qatar has got the world cup.

In addition to the numbers ilmucche posted, DW and Le Monde have recent articles not making that exact comparison, but addressing claims like these, and they tend to find that the Qatari authorities are significantly overstating how natural or proportional the number of migrant worker deaths are.

quote:

Fact check: How many people died for the Qatar World Cup?
Jan D. Walter | Matt Ford
5 hours ago5 hours ago
As the World Cup in Qatar draws closer, criticism is mounting. Human rights activists, politicians, fans and media speak of 6,500, even 15,000, alleged deaths in relation to the tournament. But are the numbers correct?

Since Qatar won the rights to host the 2022 World Cup there has been a debate over its treatment of foreign workers and the human cost of the event. There are various estimates of how many workers have died on the World Cup construction sites in Qatar, but the true figure is difficult to ascertain.

This fact check looks at figures published by FIFA, the Qatari authorities, human rights groups and the media, which have consistently been referred to as fact, misleading or even false. The authors are aware that these figures only convey a vague impression of the suffering allegedly endured by migrant workers in Qatar.

Claim: "The World Cup in Qatar has cost the lives of 6,500 - even as many as 15,000 - migrant workers."

DW fact check: False

The widely reported figure of 15,021 migrant worker deaths in connection with the World Cup in Qatar originates in a 2021 Amnesty International report. Just as widely reported is the figure of 6,500, first published by The Guardian in February 2021.

https://twitter.com/iMiaSanMia/status/1588908826203680770

Although these figures have been used to back up this claim multiple times since these reports were published, neither Amnesty International nor The Guardian have ever claimed that all these people died on stadium construction sites, or indeed even in the explicit context of the 2022 World Cup. Both figures refer merely to non-Qataris of various nationalities and in various occupations who have died in Qatar in the last decade.

The figure of 15,021 quoted by Amnesty International was obtained from official statistics from the Qatari authorities themselves, and refers to the number of foreigners who died in the country between 2010 and 2019. Between 2011 and 2020, it was 15,799.

15,000 dead - but not only for the World Cup's sake
This includes not only poorly-qualified construction workers, security personnel or gardeners who may or may not have been employed on World Cup related projects; but also foreign teachers, doctors, engineers and other business people.

Many did come from developing countries such as Nepal and Bangladesh, while others arrived from middle or high income nations. The Qatari statistics don't allow any further, more detailed breakdown.

As for The Guardian, journalist Pete Pattisson and his team based their total figure of 6,751 on official statistics from the governments of Bangladesh, India, Nepal, Pakistan and Sri Lanka, whose citizens make up a significant proportion of migrant workers in Qatar � in particular poorly-qualified workers.

Qatar does not deny either figure. Indeed, in response to The Guardian, Qatar's Government Communications Office said: "Although each loss of life is upsetting, the mortality rate among these communities is within the expected range for the size and demographics of the population." But is that true?

Claim: "The mortality rate among these communities is within the expected range for the size and demographics of the population."

DW fact check: Misleading

According to the Qatari government, 1,500 deaths per year among two million people is a normal average mortality rate.

Firstly, it should be stated that, according to the World Health Organization, general mortality rates for migrant workers in their home countries are actually greater than among those working in Qatar. In fact, even the mortality rate among Qatari citizens is higher than that among migrant workers in Qatar.

However, given that migrant workers in Qatar are not representative of the general populations in their home countries or in Qatar, such figures are misleading.

Migrant workers in Qatar are fundamentally healthy upon arrival
For instance, the proportion of small children and elderly people � demographic groups with the highest mortality rates � among migrant workers in Qatar is clearly incomparable with that among a general population of any country.

Furthermore, migrant workers in Qatar, whatever their background or job, are generally healthy people who have to pass a whole range of medical checks in order to obtain a Qatari visa, filtering out potential applicants with infectious diseases such as AIDS/HIV, hepatitis B and C, syphilis or tuberculosis.

Such statistics also don't include migrant workers who pass away after returning to their home countries. In Nepal in the last 10 years, for instance, authorities have recorded a significant increase in the number of fatal cases of kidney failure among men aged 20-50 � many of whom had just returned from working in the Middle East.

The hard work in the Gulf weather conditions, combined with low quantity and low quality drinking water, as reported by those affected, would explain this, according to health experts in Nepal.

Claim: "There have only been three work-related deaths on World Cup stadium construction sites"

DW fact check: Misleading

Both FIFA and the Qatari World Cup organizing committee insist that only three people have died as a direct result of their work on World Cup construction sites. FIFA and Qatar's official definition of "work-related deaths" refers to fatalities on construction sites for the seven brand new stadiums, as well as training facilities Qatar has built in the last decade. The three include two Nepalese men at the Al Janoub Stadium in Al Wakrah and one Briton at the Khalifa International Stadium in Al Rayyan.

Widening the definition to "non-work-related deaths" not directly linked to construction work, officials acknowledge 37 further fatalities, including, for instance, two Indians and an Egyptian who died in a road traffic accident while traveling from work to their accommodation in November 2019.

However, the awarding of the World Cup to Qatar has unleashed a veritable construction boom in the gulf state which goes beyond just the stadiums. A whole range of projects linked to the tournament have been undertaken, including new motorways, hotels, a new metro system, an airport expansion and an entire new city in Lusail, just north of Doha. Indeed, even at the peak of construction, FIFA claims that only slightly more than 30,000 workers were actually employed on specific World Cup sites.

The official acknowledgement of three deaths, therefore, discounts fatalities which may have occurred on other construction sites which likely wouldn't have existed without the World Cup. It also fails to take into account thousands of documented cases of migrant workers dying in their accommodation outside of shift hours, for which no adequate explanations have been provided.

According to research by The Guardian and Amnesty International, the latter using figures provided by the government of Bangladesh, Qatari doctors ascribe around 70% of deaths to "natural deaths" due to acute cardio-respiratory failures.

Epidemiologically, however, heart and breathing failures are not causes of death, but rather results. The cause of a cardiac arrest could be a heart attack or other irregularity, while respiratory failure could be caused by an allergic reaction or poisoning.

But no such explanations are given. Indeed, in a 2022 documentary series by German public broadcaster ARD, Qatari doctors even report being forced to fill out death certificates as such.

As early as 2014, in an independent report commissioned by the Qatari government, the global law firm DLA Piper criticized this practice and "strongly recommended" that the government "permit autopsies or post-mortems in cases of unexpected or sudden death." In late 2021, the International Labor Organization (ILO) also criticized the lack of adequate documentation of accidents and causes of death.

According to experts interviewed by Amnesty International, precise causes of death go undetermined in only 1% of cases in "properly managed health systems." Furthermore, invasive autopsies are rarely necessary. In around 85% of cases, verbal autopsies involving witnesses or acquaintances of the deceased are sufficient.

Human rights organizations such as Human Rights Watch, Amnesty International and Fairsquare regularly speak to such witnesses, whose reports suggest that heat stroke, exhaustion or even minor illnesses which go untreated are at the root of many sudden unexplained deaths.

In conclusion, figures referring to fatalities in connection with the 2022 World Cup vary depending on definition, including where migrant workers came from, where and when they died, and whether their deaths can be described as work-related or not. However, given the inconsistencies and shortcomings in Qatar's own official data, a concrete conclusion is impossible to ascertain, which in turn raises the question as to why exactly the Qatari authorities are unable to provide reliable information.

https://www.dw.com/en/fact-check-how-many-people-have-died-building-the-qatar-world-cup/a-63763713

quote:

World Cup 2022: The difficulty with estimating the number of deaths on Qatar construction sites
By Gary Dagorn and Iris Der�ux
Published on November 15, 2022 at 15h26, updated at 15h32 on November 15, 202

IN DEPTHThe estimate that 6,500 workers have died on World Cup construction sites in Qatar is a number that is quoted often, but the true figure is difficult to ascertain.

In early 2021, UK newspaper The Guardian published a detailed investigation revealing that at least 6,500 migrant workers in Qatar had died between 2011 and 2020. Since then, this figure of 6,500 deaths has become central to the criticism of the 2022 World Cup organization, and many have quoted it thinking that it corresponds to the number of workers who have died on the construction sites of the competition's stadiums, or more broadly on World Cup construction sites. However, this is not quite the case.

A census of immigrants who have died in Qatar
The Guardian's investigation, published in February 2021, focused on non-Qatari residents who had died in the country between 2011 and the end of 2020. Using death records produced by the embassies or government departments of five countries with large numbers of nationals in Qatar (India, Bangladesh, Nepal, Sri Lanka, Pakistan), the newspaper counted 6,751 confirmed deaths of workers during this 10-year period � noting that this number may have been significantly underestimated, as it did not include nationals of other countries (Philippines, Kenya etc) who were also numerous in Qatar. Deaths during the last months of 2020 and 2021 were also not included in the data collected by The Guardian.

Among the causes of these deaths, one predominated: death by natural causes, accounting for 70% of the causes cited for Indian, Nepalese and Bangladeshi workers. This was partly because no autopsy or medical examination had been performed to determine the actual cause of death.

This followed an initial investigation by the same newspaper into Qatar's preparations for the World Cup, published back in 2013, describing situations of "forced labor, a form of modern slavery," which led to several dozen deaths over the summer. It documented the daily lives of Nepalese workers on the construction sites of Lusail � a new Qatari city built north of Doha, intended to house the largest of the seven stadiums constructed � whose papers had been confiscated, who were not paid their wages, and who were housed in insanitary conditions. The same year, Le Monde also denounced the working conditions of immigrants in Qatar.

The limitations of embassy records
This figure obviously had its limits. The records of foreign embassies consulted by The Guardian almost never specified the age of the deceased, the place of death or the sector in which they had worked. This led Max Tu�on, director of the Qatar branch of the International Labour Organization (ILO), to say that some of these deaths may not be construction workers but office workers or unemployed people.

Unsurprisingly, Qatar has strongly disputed these figures, claiming that only 37 deaths have occurred among workers on stadium construction sites: three have been attributed to work accidents and 34 to other causes (10 of which involved men aged between 20 and 40).

Deaths at locations other than stadium construction sites
In its communication, the Qatari government generally included only the renovation or construction sites of the eight competition stadiums, which represent just 2% of the workers employed in the construction industry in Qatar.

But much of the accommodation and public transport network (such as the Doha subway) would probably not have been built if Qatar was not hosting the World Cup, which is expected to welcome 1.2 million people to a country of 330,000 citizens.

NGOs believe that the spectacular construction boom in the country over the past decade has been largely attributable to FIFA's decision to award it the competition, especially since "the timetable for the infrastructure program in Qatar is entirely wedded to the World Cup delivery date," said Tim Noonan, campaign director for the International Trade Union Confederation (ITUC), interviewed by the BBC in 2015.

The figure of 6,500 deaths has not been echoed by the main NGOs closely monitoring the situation of migrant workers in Qatar and the Gulf states, who instead have referred to "several thousand deaths" of migrant workers, an order of magnitude they believe is consistent with their observations on the ground and the research they have been conducting in the emirate for more than ten years. The ITUC had estimated in 2013 that 4,000 workers would have died by the time the World Cup kicked off in November 2022.

Official statistics are inconsistent
The Qatari government has released official statistics on the subject annually. While their reliability or completeness is unknown, they may provide some clues.

According to the data, 12,412 immigrant men died between 2011 and 2020, nearly half of whom (5,935) were between 20 and 50 years old, which is relatively young. The Qataris explained to The Guardian that the number of deaths was proportional to the size of the immigrant population, undisclosed by the authorities but estimated at 2.5 million in 2020, an argument repeated by the Indian authorities, who believe that the mortality rate is that which is expected of such a large population.

This is not entirely accurate, as these young men had been selected following a thorough medical examination, as Mr. Noonan pointed out in 2015. "Qatar requires them to undergo a medical exam to detect previous medical problems, so it's like comparing apples and pears," he said.

Deaths of young adults
The over-representation of these young adults is particularly clear in the age-specific death data. In 2020, 25% of the immigrant men who died in the country were between 20 and 40 years old, while this same age group accounted for 10% of the deaths recorded among Qatari men. The gap was even greater in 2012, when 20-40 year olds accounted for almost 40% of those immigrants who had died, compared to 12% for Qataris.

Read more Subscribers only Qatar World Cup: The reasons behind the widespread criticism
The same trend was observed among 40-60 year olds. Their share varied between 20% and 26% among Qatari deaths, while it represented between 35% and 42% of immigrant deaths.

The same observations can be made when the demographic weight of each age group in the respective populations of Qatari and immigrant men is brought to bear. Among Qatari men, the vast majority of deaths occur in the over-55 age group, whereas they represent a minority in the country's rather young population. The demographics of immigrant men are different, but so is their mortality: the majority of deaths are under 55 years of age (about 60%), and one in five immigrant deaths is between 35 and 44 years of age.

The 'wet globe thermometer'
These many deaths can be explained in large part to exposure to the dust and extreme heat of the Gulf climate during much of the year, which makes outdoor work very difficult and hazardous to health. Temperatures can frequently exceed 40�C in the summer and remain above 30�C for at least six months of the year. To protect construction workers, Qatar has banned outdoor work from 11:30am to 3pm. This measure, which is in reality infrequently enforced, is also grossly inadequate to prevent harm to workers' health, as analysis published by The Guardian in October 2019 has shown.

The newspaper calculated the so-called wet bulb thermometer (or WBGT) temperatures � an index that measures the combined effects of heat, solar radiation and air humidity on the human body. If it exceeds 28�C, it is considered dangerous. In Qatar, this value is frequently exceeded, especially in August when it reaches 28-30�C for almost the entire day. From mid-June onwards, temperatures are so high that it becomes dangerous to work outside for more than 15 minutes an hour for most of the day. However, countless workers have testified to working days of at least 10 hours, sometimes 12, in defiance of safety regulations.

Cardiac arrest and kidney problems
In a study published in July 2019 in the medical journal Cardiology, an international team of researchers noted a strong correlation between temperatures and cardiovascular events recorded among Nepalese migrant workers in Qatar. "The pronounced mortality from cardiovascular events during hot seasons is most likely due to intense heat stress," said the researchers, who estimated that about 35% of fatal cardiac arrests could have been prevented by better protecting workers from heat.

"Young men have a very low incidence of cardiac arrest," Dr. Dan Atar, a professor of cardiology at Oslo University Hospital and co-author of the study, told The Guardian, especially since "these workers are recruited in their countries partly for their good health, and yet hundreds of them die every year in Qatar."

Immigrant workers exposed to this heat could also develop severe chronic kidney disease (called CKDnt), which disproportionately affects men in material handling positions in construction. In a short publication from March 2020, a team of Nepalese researchers noted these systematic impairments in a cohort of 44 Nepalese workers monitored for six months during 2019, three-quarters of whom were returning from Gulf countries (and a quarter from Malaysia). While the medical causes of these kidney diseases were still undetermined, excessive working hours and lack of access to necessary medical care appeared to have played a decisive role.

https://www.lemonde.fr/en/les-decod..._6004375_8.html

Nobody disputes that the high-end numbers aren't literally 100% workers who died at a stadium construction site, but widespread reporting, NGO investigation, and academic study of the issues keeps on finding that a disproportionate amount of migrant workers are dying, and that even the high numbers might be underestimates because they don't include groups like Nepali workers who returned home and shortly thereafter died of kidney failure almost certainly related to their arduous work in the desert. I'm sorry but I really don't think your experience as a foreign teacher is comparable, nor do I think it's fair to assume the workers were already unhealthy (due to being poor) and would get better healthcare in Qatar than they would in their home countries, when these people dying in disproportionately high numbers were selected because of their health and fitness to ensure they would be efficient workers.

vyelkin fucked around with this message at 17:05 on Nov 16, 2022

# ¿ Nov 16, 2022 16:59

vyelkin: Jan 2, 2011

Fyre Festival vibes intensifying

# ¿ Nov 17, 2022 16:12

vyelkin: Jan 2, 2011

Never forget Sol Campbell died in Ukraine in 2012.

# ¿ Nov 17, 2022 18:53

vyelkin: Jan 2, 2011

new gangtag just dropped

# ¿ Nov 18, 2022 15:02

vyelkin: Jan 2, 2011

blue footed boobie posted:

Remember the artificial clouds?

artificial clouds
open-air stadium air conditioning
carbon-neutral World Cup
dismantle the stadiums and ship them to poor countries when the World Cup is over, carbon-neutralishly

# ¿ Nov 18, 2022 17:32

vyelkin: Jan 2, 2011

so Robbie Williams employs trafficked migrant workers in his kitchen?

# ¿ Nov 18, 2022 17:51

vyelkin: Jan 2, 2011

lol this guy owns

quote:

The executive director of Football Supporters Europe, Ronan Evain, said: �Who would have thought that an authoritarian regime with an appalling workers� rights record was not to be trusted? I suppose that�s what you get for accepting to be paid the equivalent of a Qatari monthly minimum wage every four days for the pleasure of doing absolutely nothing.�

# ¿ Nov 18, 2022 20:03

vyelkin: Jan 2, 2011

goatface posted:

I'd think they might be having doubts about the ROI they can expect from this tournament, but that should be chump change at this point.

Increasingly seems like they're only one big sulk away from taking all the balls and going home.

They've spent like $200B on this tournament, something like 10x the previous most expensive World Cup. The economic ROI was never there, and so far they're throwing away every last bit of sportswashing ROI by failing to maintain even a facade of progress on anything except advancing the interests of the state of Qatar. On that note, one of the few new bits of information I saw in that Netflix FIFA documentary was about just how many trade deals and arms contracts and so on Qatar was signing with various countries using the World Cup as a bridge.

# ¿ Nov 18, 2022 20:13

vyelkin: Jan 2, 2011

ilmucche posted:

qatari customs denying player visas would be amazing

Qatar wins the World Cup because no other teams were allowed in, South Asian fans get drafted at the last minute to form makeshift XIs for the Qatari team to play against

# ¿ Nov 18, 2022 20:15

vyelkin: Jan 2, 2011

This photo of a fan accommodation site from the Guardian looks more like a prison camp where you break rocks all day

# ¿ Nov 18, 2022 23:19

vyelkin: Jan 2, 2011

Infantino almost stumbled onto a real rebuttal at some point in his speech when he said Europe doesn't actually give a poo poo about migrant workers and if they did they wouldn't let tens of thousands of migrants drown in the Mediterranean, and then he promptly made it very clear he didn't actually understand his own point at all with 56 minutes of claiming he understands the plight of gay disabled Muslim women because as a child he was bullied for being Italian, just to clarify that he'll say literally anything to defend his enormous Qatari bank account.

# ¿ Nov 19, 2022 13:32

vyelkin: Jan 2, 2011

Idk what it is that makes powerful white men go to this exact rhetorical well to try and convince people they care, but somehow it keeps happening.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q9RjZFP5jEs

Grimson posted:

All of your favorite banks love laundering money for dictators and criminals though.

HSBC is a criminal money laundering enterprise with a side hustle as a bank.

# ¿ Nov 19, 2022 13:41

vyelkin: Jan 2, 2011

this is a threat

# ¿ Nov 19, 2022 14:05

vyelkin: Jan 2, 2011

"plus I was Italian, so imagine"
_____________/

# ¿ Nov 19, 2022 14:59

vyelkin: Jan 2, 2011

$200b to chuck some futons in the middle of a gravel pit and call it a day

# ¿ Nov 19, 2022 15:08

vyelkin: Jan 2, 2011

AceOfFlames posted:

In other "incredibly stupid" question, why is it that people who get bribed simply not keep the money and not do anything? What can the bribee do in that case, call the police for them not taking your illegal bribe? If someone paid me 1m to vote for them, I'd just keep it, not do it then get another job.

Edit: i guess the answer is "hope they bribe you again in the future" but given the pettiness of the people who do these things i wouldn't count on it, personally.

I'd be the worst criminal.

In some cases, like the purchase of the World Cup, it's because the bribes haven't been paid out yet. To get the three African votes, Qatar promised each of them $1.5m in "development funds for their national confederations" but presumably that was paid out after the vote. Presumably, same thing for the $10m South Africa paid to Jack Warner and Chuck Blazer back in the day. In other cases it's part of the promise of an ongoing relationship, like when Mohammed bin Hammam gave brown envelopes full of $40k cash to Caribbean delegates in hotel rooms in Trinidad to try and buy their votes for FIFA president, with the assumption being that if elected he would continue finding other ways to funnel cash to delegates in the future.

Also if you take the money and then don't do what they say, there's always the implicit threat of consequences. That doesn't have to be anything as severe as a Qatari hit squad killing you or anything Hollywood like that, but for instance, if you are the kind of person that takes bribes, this probably isn't the only bribe you've ever accepted, and the people bribing you may have evidence that they could leak showing that you take bribes, if you don't actually vote for them afterwards.

It seems like in a lot of cases in Qatar, the bribes aren't just to win votes but to open up ongoing commercial and political relationships. Platini voting for Qatar in 2010 helped cement a lot of enduring ties between France and Qatar, including Qatar buying the football club Paris St. Germain and sinking billions of euros into it, and Qatar purchasing weapons from French arms manufacturers. In a case like that, it seems Qatar didn't even directly bribe Platini with an envelope of cash or anything, they just communicated to Sarkozy that it would be in the best interests of the budding France-Qatar relationship for Platini's French vote to secure the World Cup for Qatar, with the implication being that all those future deals and contracts were at risk if Platini didn't follow through. Same thing for the Thai vote, shortly after the World Cup bidding in which the Thai delegate voted for Qatar, Thailand and Qatar signed a natural gas trade deal.

# ¿ Nov 19, 2022 15:25

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# ¿ Apr 19, 2024 10:41

vyelkin: Jan 2, 2011

FullLeatherJacket posted:

tbh I think it's more that to get a position of influence at FIFA or the IOC, you all scratch each others backs in a circle

that's the trick to doing a corruption, if you do it on your own you're just a criminal, but if everyone's in on it then you get to have a good time with your buddies and they all get a little piece of pie to take home

Yeah it's important to remember that if you're a member of a criminal organization like FIFA, your job isn't to run football, your job is to make money for yourself. The initial question treats it as "why not take a bribe once but then continue doing your job normally afterwards?" but that's the wrong way to look at it because it assumes the people involved do something other than take bribes in all their other activities. You take the bribe and do what they want because that's how you make every decision, because you're in it to make money by accepting the biggest bribe, you're not in it to do anything else.

# ¿ Nov 19, 2022 15:31

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Sports Argument Stadium > The Ray Parlour > Qat_ar Qomplaint_s: The Elon Musk of Countries

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